'Shocking' levels of denial remain...

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Nessie
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'Shocking' levels of denial remain...

Post by Nessie » Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:35 am

as claimed by this article;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47015184

"Five per cent of UK adults do not believe the Holocaust took place and one in 12 believes its scale has been exaggerated, a survey has found.
The poll of more than 2,000 people was carried out by Opinion Matters for the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust (HMDT).
Almost two-thirds of respondents could not say how many Jews were murdered or "grossly" under-estimated the number."

I am surprised by that result. I have certainly not met any of the 5%. I would have guessed it was more like 0.05%.
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Re: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain...

Post by Poodle » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:00 pm

So am I. I've never met a Holocaust denier in my entire life either (well, at least no one who'd admit to it openly). Nor a scale exaggeration proponent. Maybe there's a hidden subterranean megacity where they all live.

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Re: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain...

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:49 pm

Every year...........more people are born without the foundation of generally accepted truths. Its called filtering the news you get via social media rather than having newspapers and schools of general application.
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Re: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain...

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:12 pm

Wait...I thought we were all brainwashed sheeple.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
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Re: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain...

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:18 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:12 pm
Wait...I thought we were all brainwashed sheeple.
Yes, that is one way to characterize what social media is doing to, or rather allowing the people to do: brainwash themselves by selecting filtered news feeds that give them what they want to believe..............all to sell ads to vendors btw: its always $$. Years earlier with the more general application of news brainwashing was also present but it caught the majority of people so tribalism did not arise intra country. Again....it was still to sell advertising space.

Always amusing how things change and don't change at the very same time.
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Re: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain...

Post by Aaron Richards » Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:49 pm

Trick question: How would people here respond to the question whether the scale has been exaggerated [I assume "has been" refers to "in the past"]?

If I am honest, I would belong to this problematic one in twelve. Then again, for completely different reasons than the 5%.
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Re: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain...

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:16 pm

Aaron Richards wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:49 pm

If I am honest, I would belong to this problematic one in twelve. Then again, for completely different reasons than the 5%.
You mean as in exaggeration?
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain...

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:25 pm

More clickbait, we’ve discussed this before (I think):
https://www.newsweek.com/one-third-amer ... FcbB-udk8I
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain...

Post by Aaron Richards » Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:29 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:16 pm
Aaron Richards wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:49 pm

If I am honest, I would belong to this problematic one in twelve. Then again, for completely different reasons than the 5%.
You mean as in exaggeration?
Yes, now that I have knowledge about stuff like Wiesenthal's 11 million shtick, the inflated Soviet tolls for camps like Auschwitz's 4 million or Majdanek's fluctuating tolls, which even a couple of western historians such as Lipstadt and (I think) Gilbert accepted although others like Reitlinger or Hilberg didnt.

There is a difference between owning up that the holocaust was exaggeraged by various agencies in the past, mostly soviet, and saying the holocaust is exaggerated, which is of course an obvious tinfoil denier position.
Pls subscribe to my YouTube channel "Holocaust Documents": www.youtube.com/channel/UCTBlSXrf0b0aeUn5jIhWm7g
I compile rebuttals to popular holocaust denier canards here: imgur.com/a/725A7
and here: imgur.com/a/wo09c

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Re: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain...

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:22 pm

I wonder what similar polling would show for the American Civil War, for example, if we had an annual freakout about poor historical knowledge of 19th century American history.

Oh, wait, here we go:

https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/loca ... story.html:
The quiz reveals that over twice as many people know Paula Abdul was a judge on American Idol than know that the phrase "government of the people, by the people, for the people" comes from Lincoln's Gettysburg Address.
https://www.goacta.org/news/survey_half ... took_place:
College graduates, too, struggled with the survey. One third did not know when the Civil War took place and only 28% knew the effect of the Emancipation Proclamation. Only 40% correctly identified the quote from the Gettysburg Address—one of the most famous lines in American history—from Lincoln.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... ge/340761/:
More than a third did not know the century in which the American Revolution took place, and half of respondents believed that either the Civil War, the Emancipation Proclamation or the War of 1812 occurred before the American Revolution.
https://www.voanews.com/a/mht-americans ... 53123.html:
The poll found, for example, that 10 percent of American college graduates incorrectly think celebrity television judge Judith Sheindlin, known as “Judge Judy,” is a member of the U.S. Supreme Court.
In the Schoen Consulting Holocaust survey of Americans the choice given on one question was whether Hitler was democratically elected or seized power by force.
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Re: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain...

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:34 pm

Facts are just facts. You either know them or you don't. Sadly, the more facts you know doesn't guarantee anything else. Its like a fact itself, in a vacuum...............Hmmm........maybe some correlation? Ha, ha. Just saying.........

The more relevant point about how people vote is that what benefits them really should be an item of personal revelation, aka, a "fact" well known to them?=======? but, its not..........or does it all come down to values? voting for a wall so that homosexual drug dealers don't take your job??? I do love SouthPark.
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Re: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain...

Post by Goody67 » Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:12 pm

How did the Opinion Matters for the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust come to the conclusion that "Five per cent of UK adults do not believe the Holocaust took place and one in 12 believes its scale has been exaggerated" when they only carried out the survey on "more than 2,000"?
I am surprised by that result. I have certainly not met any of the 5%. I would have guessed it was more like 0.05%.
Add a few more 0s after the decimal point. Deniers are a tiny minority. No sane person takes the idiots seriously.
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Re: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain...

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:47 am

Yup,it is "shocking". Shocking that anyone's head is so far up their own arse ( or so self-serving) they would even consider there are 3.3 million holo-deniers in the UK....

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Re: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain...

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:39 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:47 am
Yup,it is "shocking". Shocking that anyone's head is so far up their own arse ( or so self-serving) they would even consider there are 3.3 million holo-deniers in the UK....
Out of some 66 million people? Seems 3 million dumbasses is kinda kinda low.

Good grief over 60 million people in the US voted for Trump!!!
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain...

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:44 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:39 am
Balmoral95 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:47 am
Yup,it is "shocking". Shocking that anyone's head is so far up their own arse ( or so self-serving) they would even consider there are 3.3 million holo-deniers in the UK....
Out of some 66 million people? Seems 3 million dumbasses is kinda kinda low.

Good grief over 60 million people in the US voted for Trump!!!
Yeah, but I draw a distinction between dumbasses and deniers: some deniers are quite bright :mrgreen:

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Re: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain...

Post by Nessie » Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:08 pm

Aaron Richards wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:29 pm
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:16 pm
Aaron Richards wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:49 pm

If I am honest, I would belong to this problematic one in twelve. Then again, for completely different reasons than the 5%.
You mean as in exaggeration?
Yes, now that I have knowledge about stuff like Wiesenthal's 11 million shtick, the inflated Soviet tolls for camps like Auschwitz's 4 million or Majdanek's fluctuating tolls, which even a couple of western historians such as Lipstadt and (I think) Gilbert accepted although others like Reitlinger or Hilberg didnt.

There is a difference between owning up that the holocaust was exaggeraged by various agencies in the past, mostly soviet, and saying the holocaust is exaggerated, which is of course an obvious tinfoil denier position.
You have a point that anyone who makes a genuine effort to see if the 6 million figure is correct or not, will find academics who say it is lower, but often not by much.

There is also a problem that searching the 6 million figure online, produces easy access to denier claims, that on simple reading by someone with no knowledge of the history, would make them think it is exaggerated.
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Re: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain...

Post by Nessie » Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:09 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:12 pm
How did the Opinion Matters for the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust come to the conclusion that "Five per cent of UK adults do not believe the Holocaust took place and one in 12 believes its scale has been exaggerated" when they only carried out the survey on "more than 2,000"?
I am surprised by that result. I have certainly not met any of the 5%. I would have guessed it was more like 0.05%.
Add a few more 0s after the decimal point. Deniers are a tiny minority. No sane person takes the idiots seriously.
I looked for the actual survey, but could not find it. It may have exaggerated results itself.
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Re: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain...

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:32 pm

I don't think those recent scholars who argue for a Jewish death toll in the high 5 millions or low 6 millions are "exaggerating" in the sense of consciously or unconsciously inflating estimates but rather evaluating evidence differently from some other scholars. My reading makes me gravitate toward an estimate in the low 5 millions but there's legitimate space on this issue for differences and debate IMO. "Exaggerate" is the wrong word for scholars like Benz (5.3-6.2 million) or Gutman & Rozett (5.6-5.9 millon); by the same token, scholars like Reitlinger or Hilberg whose estimates were significantly lower were not "minimizers."

And why should Joe Blow even have an opinion on such issues?

(This is all different to witness exaggerations, which come with the territory and characterize disparate kinds of events which people observe.)
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Re: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain...

Post by Nessie » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:50 pm

The "Five per cent of UK adults do not believe the Holocaust took place" is the real concern. The "one in 12 believes its scale has been exaggerated" may just be a reaction to how much the commonly used 6 million figure is disputed. The "Almost two-thirds of respondents could not say how many Jews were murdered or "grossly" under-estimated the number." is odd considering how often the 6 million figure is used in the press and other media.
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Re: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain...

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:34 pm

Nessie wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:50 pm
The "Five per cent of UK adults do not believe the Holocaust took place" is the real concern. The "one in 12 believes its scale has been exaggerated" may just be a reaction to how much the commonly used 6 million figure is disputed. The "Almost two-thirds of respondents could not say how many Jews were murdered or "grossly" under-estimated the number." is odd considering how often the 6 million figure is used in the press and other media.
The US poll results seem to me to indicate spotty education and resulting degrees of ignorance more than anything.

Despite been-there's years-long whining, here, in the US, despite Holocaust Remembrance Day, the USHMM, TV documentaries, and so on, the Holocaust is neither well understood nor top of mind for people. One would want to complement these kinds of surveys with in-depth interviews to have them mean much (and also take a longitudinal view). My guess is that most respondents are fumbling around in the dark on a lot of the questions, as they do on surveys about other historical topics.

Some points from the Schoen survey (US): only 89% of respondents had definitely heard of the Holocaust; only a third had definitely heard of the Final Solution.

Reflecting the poverty (and biases) of Holocaust education, after Hitler the most recognized individuals associated with the Holocaust are Anne Frank (85%) and Oskar Schindler (54%) - compared to Himmler (53%) and Eichmann (45%). (This sort of result would likely be mirrored in US history, where engagement is prized at the cost of basic foundational knowledge.)

Among US respondents 96% said they believe that the Holocaust happened, 3% were not sure, and 1% (which FWIW projects to over 2 million adults) said they don’t believe it happened. Close to 10% believe that the Holocaust happened but the number of Jews who perished has been “greatly exaggerated.”

99% know that the Nazis came to power in Germany.

Millennials’ responses fell off pretty much across the board compared to all adults, which could reflect life stages or worsening historical education. The All Adults vs Millennials data for one of the followups on “denial” is interesting: only 1% of Millennials think that the Holocaust didn’t happen but while 83% of All Adults think that “the Holocaust happened, and the number of Jews who died in it have been fairly described,” only 65% of Millennials agreed with this statement - Millennials are similar to All Adults on the question of exaggeration but where 7% of All Adults are “not sure” about numbers, 23% of Millennials are “not sure.”

I read the US results at least (the Schoen questionnaire is online) as speaking not to HD, or even fertile fields for HDers, as much as to the general state of historical knowledge, interest, and thought amongst Americans. Even if the 1% were committed deniers (which is very dubious), 1% vs 96% is not all that impressive or terrifying, IMO. I mean, it doesn't appear from a quick read through the data that "the tide is turning."
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Re: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain...

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:02 am

I can assure you most US Jews these days have not a clue in any serious way about any of it...

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Re: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain...

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:03 am

Holocaust Remembrance Project country by country report "rating individual European Union countries on how they face up their Holocaust pasts." I haven't read this yet - it uses a dashboard approach to provide information on and assessments of most European countries, reporting these "Key Findings":
● Many European Union governments are rehabilitating World War II collaborators and war criminals while minimising their own guilt in the attempted extermination of Jews.

● Revisionism is worst in new Central European members - Poland, Hungary, Croatia and Lithuania.

● But not all Central Europeans are moving in the wrong direction: two exemplary countries living up to their tragic histories are the Czech Republic and Romania. The Romanian model of appointing an independent commission to study the Holocaust should be duplicated.

● West European countries are not free from infection - Italy, in particular, needs to improve.

● In the west, Austria has made a remarkable turn-around while France stands out for its progress in accepting responsibility for the Vichy collaborationist government.

● Instead of protesting revisionist excesses, Israel supports many of the nationalist and revisionist governments.
I've just started reading some of the individual country entries (each runs about 8-10 pages and covers topics like the Holocaust in the country, current government, restitution, Holocaust education, commemoration, Holocaust archives, views of victimization, current opposition parties, civil society, role of the media, and the Jewish community).
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Re: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain...

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:52 am

Nessie wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:50 pm
The "Five per cent of UK adults do not believe the Holocaust took place" is the real concern. The "one in 12 believes its scale has been exaggerated" may just be a reaction to how much the commonly used 6 million figure is disputed. The "Almost two-thirds of respondents could not say how many Jews were murdered or "grossly" under-estimated the number." is odd considering how often the 6 million figure is used in the press and other media.
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Re: 'Shocking' levels of denial remain...

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:40 am

A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843