Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Discussions
Im_Not_Creative_Enough
Poster
Posts: 335
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:32 pm

Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:06 pm

I've just visited Yad Vashem for the second time in my life but the first time since being introduced to HC and the SSF. So I just have an extremley general question about people's opinions on the place, wether if they have actually visited the extibition and the museum itself, or they didn't and only know of YV's many research endevours (I know for sure that our Dr. Nick worked with them once). No specific question, feel free to write about any aspect of it.
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23552
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:11 pm

INCE, I've never been to Israel. YV's online source collections are excellent IMO (stuff like Transports to Extinction too), so are many of their publications (digital and print) and scholars associated with YV (past and present).
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9854
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:38 pm

Never been either but I echo what SM says. Their collection is excellent.
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/10 ... 24832?s=21

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23552
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:39 pm

Btw speaking of excellent YV publications, yes, indeed, our own Nick Terry published his article on British signal intelligence during the Final Solution in Yad Vashem Studies, a journal published by YV: "Conflicting Signals: British Intelligence on the “Final Solution” Through Radio Intercepts and Other Sources, 1941-1942," YVS, XXXII (2004).

Also, I feel pretty sure that I know one scholar who has been to YV.

What did you think of your visit to YV, INCE?
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

Im_Not_Creative_Enough
Poster
Posts: 335
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:32 pm

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:14 pm

I respect them very much for not falling into misleading tropes (aka "6 Million Gassed" - a phrase that still gets thrown around even by Holocaust "believers").
Other than that I don't have unique thought about them. I may add that I seems as though they don't really have a specific anti-MODERN-denial program, which is kinda problematic. It's not a good thing for the most important Holocaust museum/research center in the world to be waaaay behind the curve when it comes to the current state of HD.
If I was in charge there i'd literally adapt Sergey's "rebuttling twitter denial" article into a perminent (yet constantly growing) extibition.
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9854
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:57 pm

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:14 pm
I respect them very much for not falling into misleading tropes (aka "6 Million Gassed" - a phrase that still gets thrown around even by Holocaust "believers").
Good grief, I’d expect them not to!!!!!!
Other than that I don't have unique thought about them. I may add that I seems as though they don't really have a specific anti-MODERN-denial program, which is kinda problematic. It's not a good thing for the most important Holocaust museum/research center in the world to be waaaay behind the curve when it comes to the current state of HD.
If I was in charge there i'd literally adapt Sergey's "rebuttling twitter denial" article into a perminent (yet constantly growing) extibition.

What do you mean, anti-modern denial program?

Do they have something but their stuff is locked in the late 80’s, early 90’s? Is that what you mean?
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/10 ... 24832?s=21

Balmoral95
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2564
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:14 am
Location: The Free Nambia Healthcare Nirvana

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Balmoral95 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:44 am

My question would be does that really fit with the organization's mission.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9854
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:57 am

I agree. I’m just curious if INCE is saying that they lack such a thing or that their program is out of date.
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/10 ... 24832?s=21

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9854
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:58 am

I don’t see why such a thing would be their responsibility.
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/10 ... 24832?s=21

Balmoral95
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2564
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:14 am
Location: The Free Nambia Healthcare Nirvana

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Balmoral95 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:14 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:57 am
I agree. I’m just curious if INCE is saying that they lack such a thing or that their program is out of date.
I wasn't clear on that either...

User avatar
Aaron Richards
Poster
Posts: 312
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:03 am

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Aaron Richards » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:21 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:58 am
I don’t see why such a thing would be their responsibility.
Whose is it then? Random internet schmucks doing it for free during their spare time like us?

The beef that I have with (to use finkelstein's term) "the holocaust industry" is that they refuse to change their formula (holocaust education) and have had the focus on the same areas for what seems to be a long time, purely choosing to focus on individual stories of the living, memories, pre-war jewish life, deportations, finding separated families, the struggle to start a new life after ww2; stolen art etc, rather than the technical aspect of the genocide. I'd wish more people knew about the Einsatzgruppen, extermination in NDH fascist Croatia, Ukraine, the Baltics, what kind of a role the local Baltic auxiliaries had, how much of an influence their own antisemitism had in helping the german authorities do the dirty work, and, of course, to refute deniers.

Pretending they do not exist certainly does nothing to quell the HD movement (although I know it is dying due to other reasons such as the head honchos being old geezers now with no new generation ready to waste their lives on actual revisionist scholarship instead of internet memes)
Please subscribe to my YouTube channel "Holocaust Documents", where I fight back the sea of antisemitism & conspiracy theories that has taken over its comment section: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTBlSX ... Un5jIhWm7g
I compile rebuttals to popular holocaust denier canards here: https://siraaronrichards.imgur.com

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23552
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:00 pm

Aaron Richards wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:21 pm
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:58 am
I don’t see why such a thing would be their responsibility.
Whose is it then? Random internet schmucks doing it for free during their spare time like us?

The beef that I have with (to use finkelstein's term) "the holocaust industry" is that they refuse to change their formula (holocaust education) and have had the focus on the same areas for what seems to be a long time, purely choosing to focus on individual stories of the living, memories, pre-war jewish life, deportations, finding separated families, the struggle to start a new life after ww2; stolen art etc, rather than the technical aspect of the genocide. I'd wish more people knew about the Einsatzgruppen, extermination in NDH fascist Croatia, Ukraine, the Baltics, what kind of a role the local Baltic auxiliaries had, how much of an influence their own antisemitism had in helping the german authorities do the dirty work, and, of course, to refute deniers.

Pretending they do not exist certainly does nothing to quell the HD movement (although I know it is dying due to other reasons such as the head honchos being old geezers now with no new generation ready to waste their lives on actual revisionist scholarship instead of internet memes)
I don't quite follow this. Yad Vashem has capsule summaries, historical background, photos, source material, and scholarly publications on all the topics above, just not in the context of debunking HD - rather as objects of research, analysis and discussion. YV online resources are one of the "go to" places for outlines, summaries, and in-depth treatment of core topics - as well as for documents (and recent studies and research).

A person interested in finding out about different aspects of the Holocaust will be well served by some aspect of the work which YV does, far more so than by back and forth with deniers, which becomes repetitive and myopic very quickly, in that deniers have a narrow set of core obsessions.

YV also has articles, albeit not in depth AFAIK, on denial. But my understanding of YV's mission - a good question raised by Balmoral - is that the center sees itself as having educational, commemorative, and research/scholarly roles. Its publications have been innovative (I'd suggest looking at recent books like Michman's reinterpretation of ghettos, Feferman's study of the Crimea and North Caucasus, Bankier's collection of testimonies on Lithuania, Silberklang's book on Lublin district, Wildt on Hitler's Volksgemeinschaft, Engelking on Judenjagd, other titles either published by YV or in association with academic publishers, or various editions of YV Studies). I don't think the YV publications are overly focused on the usual areas, individual stories, family histories, etc. I have to say, of course, that I'm most familiar with YV for its efforts to document and assess the various aspects of the genocide, less so with the commemorative side of its work.

My personal view is that directly debunking denial should not be a core part of what YV tries to do, any more than it should become a core part of the mission of my local Holocaust museum. Denial, sadly for its adherents, basically deserves a bunch of us schmucks refuting it. HC and some others have done a good job expanding HD refutation, but IMO the division of labor works, without drawing organizations like YV into this.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9854
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:30 pm

Aaron Richards wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:21 pm

Whose is it then? Random internet schmucks doing it for free during their spare time like us?
Everyone needs a hobby, Aaron. Frankly I think my wife would prefer I take up something less crazy like fishing. But I think it’s crazy to wake up at the ass-crack of dawn to go sit in the cold and pester the poor fish.

But to answer your question I don’t consider PHDN, HDOT and Holocaust Controversies “internet schmucks doing it for free.” What I would say is that institutes who operate as research centers shouldn’t make denial part of their focus. Their job is to hunt for sources, make them available, write the books, give the lectures and to cut this short, further our knowledge of the subject. I’d also count as part of their job getting this information out so that something like it doesn’t happen again.
The beef that I have with (to use finkelstein's term) "the holocaust industry"
And I have a beef with the term “Holocaust Industry”......along with a beef with Norman Finkelstein.
Aaron, this “industry” is no different than other research that deals with European history, US history, the history of the Civil War, slavery, etc. Historians and researchers write books and put them out, along with papers, do lectures, etc. There are museums for everything under the sun, does this make them some diabolical “industry?” BTW this “industry” doesn’t make it easy for amateurs like myself, have you seen some of the prices for academic works lately? FFS, it’s hard to indoctrinate the masses when some of the books I want are 50, 60, 70, or more. Hilberg’s classic three volume set is over 100.00 for a used copy.
“is that they refuse to change their formula (holocaust education) and have had the focus on the same areas for what seems to be a long time, purely choosing to focus on individual stories of the living, memories, pre-war jewish life, deportations, finding separated families, the struggle to start a new life after ww2; stolen art etc, rather than the technical aspect of the genocide.”
Aaron, don’t take this the wrong way but you need to look a little harder at what places like Yad Vashem and the USHMM do. They have extensive documents and make books available on other things besides what life was like and what the survivors say.
I'd wish more people knew about the Einsatzgruppen, extermination in NDH fascist Croatia, Ukraine, the Baltics, what kind of a role the local Baltic auxiliaries had, how much of an influence their own antisemitism had in helping the german authorities do the dirty work,
I agree with the sentiment.
and, of course, to refute deniers.
In other words give them equal standing? Give them the publicity they crave? Why? That already exists. I mentioned three who deal with denial on a technical basis.
Pretending they do not exist certainly does nothing to quell the HD movement (although I know it is dying due to other reasons such as the head honchos being old geezers now with no new generation ready to waste their lives on actual revisionist scholarship instead of internet memes)
If it’s dying and dumbed down then why devote time to it?
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/10 ... 24832?s=21

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9854
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:33 pm

It’s also annoying when books I want are only available in foreign language editions and don’t get translated.
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/10 ... 24832?s=21

User avatar
Aaron Richards
Poster
Posts: 312
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:03 am

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Aaron Richards » Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:18 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:30 pm
If it’s dying and dumbed down then why devote time to it?
The "quality" (if you want to call it that) á la mattogno, rudolf, graf, etc. is dying but their general reach has exponentially increased since the 80s, thanks to the internet. Back then you had to be part of some kind of mailing list to get denier material. Already part of the loonies. Or, you know, they'd try placing an ad in a university camps to get people interested (didn't really work). And yes, public court battles like the Zundel trial did give them the attention they craved and made thousands aware of their existence. In the 90s you had your usenet groups, but today? Today any 6 year old child can find a denier video thanks to the algorithm on youtube.
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:30 pm
In other words give them equal standing? Give them the publicity they crave? Why? That already exists. I mentioned three who deal with denial on a technical basis.
How much reach do you think HDOT, HC and phdn have? People who've already encountered denial (i.e. damage already done) and who are so bothered that they try googling for answers (good on them) to those "clever questions", refusing to give into denier rhetoric? They will find the aforementioned. While millions of children search for Auschwitz, Dachau etc. for school projects, nobody searches for prussian blue, treblinka II and cherry red unless they've already been dragged into this by a denier.

My point is, when it comes to questioning the holocaust, internet deniers have the (seemingly) high ground due to their knowledge about the technical aspects being better than the average joe's. They can still plant seeds of doubt into the minds of those who thought they had received as good a public education about the holocaust any other other responsible citizen of the western world did. You know, the whole "oh, we do not deny concentration camps, we do not deny jews being deported by the millions, we do not deny forced labor, we do not deny the pictures of bodies in western camps, but you see, we deny the gassing, the cremation, the numbers, the orders". And when they also bring their usual false-equivalence schtick of american internment camps for japanese civilians, and allied strategic bombing, supply lines and typhus into the picture, they don't even have to do much hard work and can just expect the person they are arguing with to "prove them wrong" or call it quits.

So if educators refuse to go into detail about the killing process, when, where and how, then their pupils will one day receive a "schooling" by a denier somewhere on the internet and then they'll have three choices: A) call him a nazi and tell him to fck off (which leaves a sour aftertaste in the sense that you refused to engage someone because of emotion/fear/anger); B) listen to his arguments and then try finding the answers yourself (time and energy involved), or C) get hoodwinked by his rhetoric since you are unable to refute his claims, and get convinced you have been lied to by "them".

You are right about Yad Vashem having a generic page about common denier arguments and why they're fallacies but it needs more depth. Another example is think of how many TV documentaries there are about the holocaust (in the four digits?) and how many of them are about the kind of nonsense deniers talk and how they are wrong. I can only think of one: Mr. Death, the Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter. Refusing to incorporate common holocaust denier arguments and why they are BS is a fundamental flaw among holocaust educators, and this is a flaw deniers exploit on the internet in their agenda to radicalize and "convert" common people with statements as simple as the Auschwitz swimming pool. "Oh, you've heard of Auschwitz? Of course everyone has heard of Auschwitz. Did you know it had a swimming pool "for firefighting" with diving boards and gargoyle heads? No? Gee, I wonder why."

Rebuttals to the most common way deniers attack the holocaust can be incorporated into any school curriculum as an example of modern antisemitism and how to deal with it. Can be done in an hour.
Please subscribe to my YouTube channel "Holocaust Documents", where I fight back the sea of antisemitism & conspiracy theories that has taken over its comment section: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTBlSX ... Un5jIhWm7g
I compile rebuttals to popular holocaust denier canards here: https://siraaronrichards.imgur.com

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9854
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:28 pm

Aaron Richards wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:18 pm


The "quality" (if you want to call it that) á la mattogno, rudolf, graf, etc. is dying but their general reach has exponentially increased since the 80s, thanks to the internet. Back then you had to be part of some kind of mailing list to get denier material. Already part of the loonies. Or, you know, they'd try placing an ad in a university camps to get people interested (didn't really work). And yes, public court battles like the Zundel trial did give them the attention they craved and made thousands aware of their existence. In the 90s you had your usenet groups, but today? Today any 6 year old child can find a denier video thanks to the algorithm on youtube.
To counterbalance that I say what is needed is more education. That same 6-year-old can find flat earther stuff and 9-11 “truthers.” It’s even worse on Twitter, my feed is flooded with that crap. In fact racism is far more common than HD. I see far more WN and alt-right BS than I see HD, Pepe the Frog is alive and well. That crowd doesn’t dwell on whether or not 5-6 million Jews died during WW II. They hate Muslims, Jews and blacks equally.

Where their HD exists it is frighteningly stupid, crap that Nizkor debunked back in the 90’s.
In other words give them equal standing? Give them the publicity they crave? Why? That already exists. I mentioned three who deal with denial on a technical basis.

How much reach do you think HDOT, HC and phdn have?
As much as your deniers do. Where they don’t we show it to them.
People who've already encountered denial (i.e. damage already done) and who are so bothered that they try googling for answers (good on them) to those "clever questions", refusing to give into denier rhetoric? They will find the aforementioned. While millions of children search for Auschwitz, Dachau etc. for school projects, nobody searches for prussian blue, treblinka II and cherry red unless they've already been dragged into this by a denier.
Aaron, those that buy into denial are already flawed. You have to be in order to buy into that crap.
So if educators refuse to go into detail about the killing process, when, where and how,
Anyone who visits Yad Vashem or USHMM will get that. Or at least have access to that information.

I agree that general Holocaust Education needs qualified instructors to teach the subject.
then their pupils will one day receive a "schooling" by a denier somewhere on the internet and then they'll have three choices: A) call him a nazi and tell him to fck off (which leaves a sour aftertaste in the sense that you refused to engage someone because of emotion/fear/anger); B) listen to his arguments and then try finding the answers yourself (time and energy involved), or C) get hoodwinked by his rhetoric since you are unable to refute his claims, and get convinced you have been lied to by "them".
Where do you think I started? It shocked the hell out of me when I ran across it, to me it seemed like the height of stupidity. But the arguments seemed good so I went hunting for answers....and found them. I didn’t become a denier because I had a background in history and historical method. Most people will not, of course, but the answers are there. It’s even part of the Wikipedia page down at the bottom. It links directly to this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

Everyone uses Wikipedia, Aaron.
You are right about Yad Vashem having a generic page about common denier arguments and why they're fallacies
Well, that’s about what I’d expect.
Rebuttals to the most common way deniers attack the holocaust can be incorporated into any school curriculum as an example of modern antisemitism and how to deal with it. Can be done in an hour.
Yet it also introduces it to people who knew nothing about it and might be turned on by it.

You mentioned Doctor Death...did you know that the director screened it for students at an Ivy League school (can’t remember which one) and half walked out thinking Leuchter had valid points?
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/10 ... 24832?s=21

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23552
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:59 pm

@ Aaron: But resources addressing pseudo-technical claims of deniers and their gas chambers obsession, which scholars don't share, are easily available via HC, PHDN, HDOT, and at lesser known sites, should interested people be looking for them and chasing down these bottomless pits of crankery. They're a heavy lift, frankly, for casually interested readers, as are books by Pressac or Pelt, and IMO don't belong among material aimed at people with general interest in the fate of European Jews or in Third Reich actions.

In the US there is a massive gap in the area of general education, where history curricula and instruction are so impoverished. It's also political factors, IMO, not denier fallacies like the Auschwitz swimming pool or cherry red, that make some people susceptible to the anti-Semitic mumbo-jumbo purveyed by deniers. People convinced by Trolljerkoff, for example, are predisposed to nuttery.

Speaking of cherry red, for my money Fritz's webpage does a decent enough job refuting denial by making it out as the Internet version of crazy man on street corner shouting out at passersby why they have to convert, now.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23552
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:04 pm

Jeffk and I cross-posted. Clearly I agree with Jeffk when he says, "To counterbalance that I say what is needed is more education." And with the rest of Jeffk's reply. I'd add that there's a fine line between refuting denial and giving crankery attention and credence. Or, .e.g, feeding into HD's narrowing of the history to Wiesel and diesel, etc. Also I think that it is easy to underestimate the impact of YV, the USHMM, etc, especially in the face of widespread historical illiteracy.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

Sergey_Romanov
Regular Poster
Posts: 589
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:15 am

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Sergey_Romanov » Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:35 pm

Never been to YV so can't judge the Museum as such. One has to differentiate between scholarly and historico-political parts.

The exhibition itself is serving certain ideological aims. It's not a negative comment, just an observation. Such exhibitions rarely have purely scholarly endeavors in mind.

On the other hand, they have a superb documentary archive and YVS, which is top-notch.

Ian Hazard
Poster
Posts: 185
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:05 am

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Ian Hazard » Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:17 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:33 pm
It’s also annoying when books I want are only available in foreign language editions and don’t get translated.
Lack of knowledge of German, Polish or Russian has never stopped you from posing as a Holocaust expert before.

Jeff, have you ever taken the time and trouble to physically visit any of the concentration camps you pontificate so much about on this forum?

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23552
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:01 pm

Ian, which camps have you visited, how did you spend your time each visit, and what did you learn from your visits to these camps?
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9854
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:10 pm

Ian Hazard wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:17 pm

Lack of knowledge of German, Polish or Russian has never stopped you from posing as a Holocaust expert before.
LOL, don’t think so. But I lap you as far as knowledge of the subject goes, Ian. I may not know as much as other members here but I’m light years ahead of you.
Jeff, have you ever taken the time and trouble to physically visit any of the concentration camps you pontificate so much about on this forum?
No, have you ever taken time to visit a doctor about your lack of a higher cognitive function?
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/10 ... 24832?s=21

Balmoral95
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2564
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:14 am
Location: The Free Nambia Healthcare Nirvana

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Balmoral95 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:19 am

Ian Hazard wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:17 pm
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:33 pm
It’s also annoying when books I want are only available in foreign language editions and don’t get translated.
Lack of knowledge of German, Polish or Russian has never stopped you from posing as a Holocaust expert before.

Jeff, have you ever taken the time and trouble to physically visit any of the concentration camps you pontificate so much about on this forum?
Why do you consider such visits important?

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23552
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:27 am

Reminds me, was the Fish Reporr ever published?
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

Balmoral95
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2564
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:14 am
Location: The Free Nambia Healthcare Nirvana

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Balmoral95 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:47 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:27 am
Reminds me, was the Fish Reporr ever published?
Nein.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23552
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:57 am

Shocking.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9854
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:58 am

I’m still waiting on the earth shattering Richard Krege Report.
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/10 ... 24832?s=21

Balmoral95
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2564
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:14 am
Location: The Free Nambia Healthcare Nirvana

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Balmoral95 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:15 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:58 am
I’m still waiting on the earth shattering Richard Krege Report.
We all should live so long ...

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9854
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:40 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:15 am
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:58 am
I’m still waiting on the earth shattering Richard Krege Report.
We all should live so long ...
Well, it’s going on 20 years now. The anticipation better be worth the wait.
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/10 ... 24832?s=21

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23552
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:20 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:15 am
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:58 am
I’m still waiting on the earth shattering Richard Krege Report.
We all should live so long ...
Sure but the Fish Reporr was going to put the final stake in the hoax . . .
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

Balmoral95
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2564
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:14 am
Location: The Free Nambia Healthcare Nirvana

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Balmoral95 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:55 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:20 am
Balmoral95 wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:15 am
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:58 am
I’m still waiting on the earth shattering Richard Krege Report.
We all should live so long ...
Sure but the Fish Reporr was going to put the final stake in the hoax . . .
Krege too...

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23552
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:56 am

But Fish assured me personally LOL
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

Balmoral95
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2564
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:14 am
Location: The Free Nambia Healthcare Nirvana

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Balmoral95 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:10 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:56 am
But Fish assured me personally LOL
You will recall at the time Fish was maintaining a list of those who, in his opinion, behaved correctly toward him and would therefore receive a copy. By the time Rodoh 1 folded, most if not all had been struck from the list...

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23552
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:40 pm

I recall that indeed. I think I was never on the list. Fish was displeased with me from the get-go as I had made a suggestion for stealth measures he might use at Auschwitz, after Wankdraft suggested Fish wear a yarmulke, "Or you could wear a Groucho Marx mustache. It could work. Really. Ward off the nutters, the Israelis, and camp security. They'd never guess who it is." And "I am sure that the little hammer, chisel, and bags will hide neatly under the clown suit." No copy of the Reporr for me! For my suggestion, Fish was enraged, and, for my "provocative post," k0nsl tried to get me tossed from the forum or something. But I was only trying to advance science.

Fish also objected to one of my avatars (it was "white trash" and a "racial slur," Fish insisted), which kept me in his doghouse.

I also want to add that Fish, with characteristic modesty, wrote about the likely result of his Auschwitz investigation, "Robert Jan Van Pelt, please feel free to soil your pants!"
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9854
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:33 pm

If Van Pelt read anything Charles wrote he would soil himself....out of laughter.
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/10 ... 24832?s=21

User avatar
Denying-History
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2111
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:01 pm

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Denying-History » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:59 pm

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:06 pm
I've just visited Yad Vashem for the second time in my life but the first time since being introduced to HC and the SSF. So I just have an extremley general question about people's opinions on the place, wether if they have actually visited the extibition and the museum itself, or they didn't and only know of YV's many research endevours (I know for sure that our Dr. Nick worked with them once). No specific question, feel free to write about any aspect of it.
They, like any museum that doesn’t stand on a specific area (unlike the Auschwitz Museum or Majdanek Museum), tend to have dated understandings on the camps. Their article on Majdanek suffers similar to the USHMM’s does on details and inaccuracies. Yad Vashem claims there were 7 gas chambers despite the Dusseldorf trial stating only three were “proven” and has been updated to about two functioning GC’s by the museum. They also claim 360,000 people were victims of the camp despite knowing about Kranz’s 2007 update to 78,000 victims (page 2). Basically their pages are full of contradictions between page 1-2. Basically like the USHMM their good for general information and not specifics.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23552
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Opinions on Yad Vashem.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:37 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:59 pm
In the US there is a massive gap in the area of general education, where history curricula and instruction are so impoverished.
When I wrote this I was thinking of K-12. But a recent piece, on BA's awarded in the US, has some (indirect) relevance - The history BA since the great recession:
Of all the major disciplines, history has seen the steepest declines in the number of bachelor’s degrees awarded. . . . This represents a long-term low for the history major. . . .
The author of this study didn't examine course enrollments, which would be an interesting aspect of the trends.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"