My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

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blake121666
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My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by blake121666 » Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:43 am

I have decided to make a posting of the technical issues that I have considered over the years at Rodoh. I think you and the HC crew would possibly be interested in the subjects discussed. And I wouldn't shun input into these matters from you people here.

I need somewhere to point to to respond to the same old same old in Revisionist circles and that is what this post is for. A one-stop shop for typical arguments, where I can say something like "reference section 2 item 4 for what I think about that" or some such thing!

Here is the post:

https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 30#p137998

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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Sergey_Romanov » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:03 am

> The HC team has pretty much convinced established opinion that the alleged ICE exhaust gassings were from gasoline not diesel ICEs. So it is now a moot point to claim anything about gassing with diesel ICE exhaust - other than to claim that the story has changed about that.

Too bad that the story has not changed since the statements we are quoting have been there all along, some less known of course.

The interpretation of evidence by some has changed, but that's neither here, nor there.

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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Sergey_Romanov » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:08 am

The lying idjit Werd:

> Are you seriously comparing the gassing of a soon to be former death row inmate that they don't care how long it takes to die (15 to even 60 minutes if necessary) to trying to mass gas batches of Jews as fast as possible?

Who said the gassing was to be as quick as possible? It wasn't the actual bottleneck and if it took 30 minutes more, who would have cared?

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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Hans » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:31 am

Well blake, thanks for this one, it's also an interesting experiment to see if it makes a difference when arguments are advanced by somebody of themselves or at least somebody closer to themselves. Normally it should, but then I would not call some of the RODOH users in any way normal.

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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Nessie » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:03 am

Blake your summary here is wrong;

"Cherry red corpses
It was widely believed by all, including the medical establishment, that corpses of CO poisoned victims would largely be cherry red. CO is used to keep meat cuts a bright red. Very surprisingly, it turns out to be the case that the majority of corpses of CO poisoned victims are not, in fact, cherry red. Everyone seems to have gotten this wrong for decades."

The medical facts are that the corpses of those poisoned to death by CO do commonly go cherry red, but only once lividity has settled and formed into the outer skin, as the blood is cherry red. It is not the entire corpse which goes cherry red, it is just the area where blood settles. Look at the photo of a corpse Berg uses on his webpage. It has to be turned on its side to show the full effect of where the blood has settled. There are also patches with no colour as the skin is compressed by pressure and the blood could not settle into the outer skin.

The issue is that lividity takes hours to settle and obviously cannot settle if the body is moved. When the gas chambers were opened, lividity had not had time to settle and then it could not as the bodies were moved. Once bodies are thrown into graves, there is pressure on the skin from all asides and at most patches of cherry red would appear.

It is widely believed by deniers that cherry red somehow appears before lividity settles. Yet most medical sources do not even list skin discolouration as a symptom even for fatal exposure to CO. Of those which do, they almost all say it is rare, seldom seen or is only seen once dead. One source has been found which suggests it happens in 50% of cases, but that source then contradicts it self with a list of symptoms which does not included skin discolouration at fatal levels. The sources which do describe skin discolouration as a symptom prior to death, say it appears on areas where the skin is thinnest, such around the nails, on the lips. Another study found that even doctors find it hard to spot the discolouration. So people with no medical experience and who were experiencing the trauma of unloading corpses from gas chambers are hardly likely to notice a very vague and hard to spot symptom.

Berg found a source which insisted skin discolouration should be spotted immediately. What he failed to understand was that was by coroners asked to attend death scenes, so they would not see the body till hours after death, by which time there would be lividity settled into the outer skin. The immediate referred to immediately on arrival of the coroner, not immediately on the death of the victim.

All the medical sources agree lividity takes around 30 minutes before it even starts to appear and 6 to 12 hours to full settle and form. That time gap is why no witness refers to lots of cherry red bodies.
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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Sergey_Romanov » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:53 am

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... orpsecolor

"The corpses would have been bright cherry RED."
First of all, witnesses rarely describe body color at all. That would not have been the most important detail to mention compared to, you know, the fact of the mass murder.

Second, witnesses do mention red discoloration. One of the most important Auschwitz witnesses, Henryk Tauber, described the gassed corpses (HCN) thus:
"We found heaps of naked bodies, doubled up. They were pinkish, and in places red. Some were covered with greenish marks and saliva ran from their mouths."
S. I. Pilunov described the corpses of the gas van victims in Belorussia on 20.05.1944 (Prestupleniya nemetsko-fashiststkikh okkupantov v Belorussii. 1941-1944, 1965, p. 172):
"The skin on the corpses had a pronounced red color, such that happens after a long stay in the bath."
Some other witnesses describe different shades, such as Wilhelm Pfannenstiel, who said that the Belzec gassing victims showed “a bluish puffiness about the face”.

The reason for the differing descriptions is simple - the so-called characteristic skin color with poisonings applies to individual cases, normally without additional physical injuries and with enough oxygen, i.e. the discoloration strongly depends on the circumstances of death.

It does not necessarily apply to the cases of mass gassings with obvious lack of oxygen and numerous physical injuries involved. Both in Auschwitz and in the Reinhardt camps many victims must have died from pure asphyxiation. Indeed, that is exactly the cause of death claimed by Pfannenstiel - not the engine exhaust.

Skin discoloration would thus vary from gassing to gassing, depending on many factors. But to stay with Auschwitz, a description of cyanide poisonings says:
"In most cases, cyanide poisoning causes a deceptively healthy pink to red skin color. However, if a physical injury or lack of oxygen is involved, the skin color may be bluish. Reddening of the eyes and pupil dilation are symptoms of cyanide poisoning. Cyanosis (blue discoloration of the skin) tends to be associated with severe cyanide poisonings."
Needless to say, mass gassings in Auschwitz involved physical injuries, lack of oxygen and severe cyanide poisoning.

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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Sergey_Romanov » Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:05 am

Not to mention that the corpse-handling / -dragging would not have been always performed under the optimal lighting conditions.

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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Sergey_Romanov » Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:33 pm

Added Leidig to the text.

So that's three credible independent eyewitnesses.

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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Nessie » Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:37 pm

The cherry red skin argument Berg produced was in particular to CO poisoning and that no witness at TII, Sobibor or Belzec commented on cherry red skin.
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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Hans » Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:01 pm

interrogation of Wilhelm Findeisen of 17 October 1967 (gas van driver of EG C):
"Die Opfer lagen mit rosigem Gesicht tot im Fahrzeug."
(BArch B 162/18154, p. 90)

interrogation of Anton D. of 28 March 1969 (KdS Weissruthenien):
"Als der Minsker Fahrer das zweite Mal kam, waren die Insassen seines Fahrzeugs bereits tot. Sie waren aufgedunsen und hatten eine rosa Hautfarbe."
(BArch B 162/3460, p. 32)
Last edited by Hans on Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Sergey_Romanov » Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:47 pm

Great, time to add new material.

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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Sergey_Romanov » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:43 pm

Hans, what was Anton D's post?

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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:46 pm

We discussed this back here, there are probably duplicates from this post and that one:

https://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=28468
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/10 ... 24832?s=21

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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:59 pm

also here (and going on for pages) for Berg's corpse color argument: https://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic. ... 60#p414771
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Hans » Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:01 pm

Sergey_Romanov wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:43 pm
Hans, what was Anton D's post?
He was employed as co-driver of a gas van, but claimed it was only used for transporting the people to the shooting site at this occasion. When he later saw a gas van unloading its gassed victims at the burial pit and saw the pink corpses, he was "in unmittelbarer Nähe dieser Grube zur Absperrung eingesetzt".

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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:19 pm

Nessie wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:37 pm
The cherry red skin argument Berg produced was in particular to CO poisoning and that no witness at TII, Sobibor or Belzec commented on cherry red skin.
Berg stepped in it by producing a report on the instances where cherry red skin was observed. It’s in the link I posted.

The paper Berg provided showed coroners experienced issues identifying CO poisoning even when given an opportunity to examine corpses at some length. The paper mentioned potential barriers, including poor oxygenation among victims (which the White Paper mentioned).

My point to Berg is if coroners experienced issues in identifying this coloring, why would traumatized men working as fast as they could take note of it?

Also there is no guarantee that all the victims died this way. It is likely that asphyxiation occurred or other trauma like trampling was the cause of death.
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/10 ... 24832?s=21

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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Hans » Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:31 pm

Here's an earlier statement of Anton D.:
"Ich kann mich heute noch daran erinnern, dass die vergasten Juden aufgedunsene Gesichter und eine auffallend rosa-rote Gesichtsfarbe hatten."
(interrogation of 7 June 1962, BArch B 162/3412, p. 199)

Leidig also mentioned the corpse color at his examination at the "gas van trial" in Hannover on 29 April 1966:
"Monate später, es mag im Winter 1941/42 gewesen sein, fuhren wir zusammen mit unserem Abteilungsleiter zum KL Sachsenhausen. Dort wurde uns ein Gaswagen vorgeführt der ähnlich aussah wie das Fahrzeug das uns im Herbst 1941 gezeigt worden war....Andere Gefangene luden die Toten aus. Die Leichen hatten eine rosarote Farbe. Daraus ist zu entnehmen, dass sie vergiftet und nicht erstickt sind. Insgesamt waren etwa 30 Personen, meist in SS-Uniform anwesend, die den Vorgang beobachteten."
(BArch B 162//25918, p. 122)

His testimony quoted in Kogon et al (taken from BArch B 162/5066, p. 107) is dated 6 February 1959.

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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Balmoral95 » Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:54 pm

I see Been There regurgitating Berg on producer gas at Rodoh... I've often wondered what Berg would offer someone with serious credentials to pretend to support his nonsense...

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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:28 pm

I realize that Berg likes to discuss how he would kill Jews but come on....:D

Never understood that “producer gas” argument. Those things are volatile and just as likely to blow up on you or gas out the operator.
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/10 ... 24832?s=21

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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Sergey_Romanov » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:57 pm

All added.

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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Nessie » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:45 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:19 pm
Nessie wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:37 pm
The cherry red skin argument Berg produced was in particular to CO poisoning and that no witness at TII, Sobibor or Belzec commented on cherry red skin.
Berg stepped in it by producing a report on the instances where cherry red skin was observed. It’s in the link I posted.

The paper Berg provided showed coroners experienced issues identifying CO poisoning even when given an opportunity to examine corpses at some length. The paper mentioned potential barriers, including poor oxygenation among victims (which the White Paper mentioned).

My point to Berg is if coroners experienced issues in identifying this coloring, why would traumatized men working as fast as they could take note of it?

Also there is no guarantee that all the victims died this way. It is likely that asphyxiation occurred or other trauma like trampling was the cause of death.
Where Berg mucked up was over "immediately", as he clearly thought coroners are there at the time of death, whereas they would arrive often hours after death and it is then they should be able to immediately recognise the by now settled lividity colour.
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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Nessie » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:49 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:28 pm
I realize that Berg likes to discuss how he would kill Jews but come on....:D

Never understood that “producer gas” argument. Those things are volatile and just as likely to blow up on you or gas out the operator.
Berg has summarised it by saying;

"There was a desperate shortage of gasoline and diesel fuel; there was NO shortage of wood or woodchips."

I do not think that gasoline was an issue in 1942-3, when most of the TII, Sobibor, Chelmno and Belzec gassings took place. In any case, the Special Actions for the Final Solution were an important part of Nazi work, so a few recovered Soviet engines and some vans was going to make a tiny dent in the overall fuel usage.

The wood/producer gas claim is pure argument from incredulity.
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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Nessie » Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:58 pm

Scott falls for the argument from incredulity hook line and sinker;

https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=138308#p138311

"HC is at least honest about the diesel problem, but it took a lot of posting back and forth to get there. Roberto and I were going at it in Online back-and-forths early in the 21st century.
However, what they still don't get is that the idea of industrial mass-murder using gasoline engine exhaust is only slightly less stupid. How is this not relevant?"

It is amazing that an argument so obviously flawed as, in my opinion the Nazis would have used wood gas, not gasoline, therefore the claim they used gasoline is wrong, therefore no gassing, is being used. How can people who appear intelligent be so dumb? I can only think that hatred of the Jewish people is so strong that it clouds rationality.
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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:03 pm

That post is batshit crazy. Perhaps the superfluous words and numerous tangents are meant to cover up the hollowness of the post?
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:25 pm

Those people seem intelligent to you?

Nessie, anyone who starts with the Holocaust didn’t happen is operating with a severe mental deficit.
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/10 ... 24832?s=21

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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Balmoral95 » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:59 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:03 pm
That post is batshit crazy. Perhaps the superfluous words and numerous tangents are meant to cover up the hollowness of the post?

Well, they've gone beyond "batshit" in the LA typhus thread posting pics and vids of homeless defecating in alleyways.

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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:20 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:25 pm
Those people seem intelligent to you?
No kidding. They appear to be morons.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:45 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:03 pm
That post is batshit crazy. Perhaps the superfluous words and numerous tangents are meant to cover up the hollowness of the post?
He apparently has never pondered on the concept of "simplicity is divinity".

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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Nessie » Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:47 am

To someone with limited intelligence, the waffle produced by Scott in particular, would make him appear intelligent. He certainly knows a lot and I have yet to catch him plagiarising, which I do with others when they try and posts full of information.
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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:20 pm

One could not plagiarize the babble Scott concocts. It exists only in his head.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Nessie » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:51 pm

A perfect example of an argument from incredulity, or as poster Major Major at ISF put it "Another "if I ran the zoo" argument from incredulity";

https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=138458#p138458

"The engine exhaust gassing claim becomes ABSURD and unbelievable when one realizes that another gas, cheap and readily available with far more CO and using no engines at all, was at hand throughout German-occupied Europe, especially Eastern Europe.
That does not mean that it would have been impossible to commit mass murder with the alleged methods and engine exhaust--but it does make those alleged engine exhaust methods seem far too stupid to be taken seriously."

That was courtesy of F Berg.
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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:02 pm

BeenThere:''

"The FACTS are that the claimed method for the alleged mass-murder of Jews in extermination camps has never “always been and always will remain" the same. It has been a constantly changing 'story' of what the method was from 1942 till the 1960's and even 1970's."

What a facking dope.... and liar.

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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Nessie » Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:08 pm

Been-there also said;

"This statement is obviously quite false, as anyone who knows the history of the morphing 'H' mythology will know."

and he then goes to to further evidence his knowledge of what happened is very poor indeed. He is classic Dunning-Kruger, where his confidence is far higher than his intelligence and so he thinks he is cleverer than he actually is.
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Re: My technical arguments subject at Rodoh

Post by Nessie » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:06 am

Blake needs to make his point;

"The problem with this is that it is a woulda coulda shoulda about an ALTERNATIVE to what is claimed to have been done - and doesn't simply address the claim as it is - which is what I was doing in my OP."

more clearly. The woodgas argument is a fallacy of argument from incredulity. It does not matter that deniers think that woodgas would have made more sense. The evidence is Soviet gasoline engines (which some thought were diesel) were used. Freely available engines were available from many captured Soviet vehicles, at a time when there was no issue about gasoline supplies, to do an important job in the Final Solution. There is no incredulity to that.
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