Stutthof Guard Says He Saw No Gas Chambers

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Stutthof Guard Says He Saw No Gas Chambers

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:12 pm

This morning someone on Twitter sent me a link that made him all hot and bothered.

The Newobserver is a right-wing internet rag. I understand if you don’t want to click that link so I put additional links below it:

http://newobserveronline.com/stutthof-t ... trocities/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.dw.com ... a-46274747

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ex-ss-gua ... rare-move/

Note this article specifies Poles in addition to Jews.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 31866.html




The gist of it is that the guard on trial stated he never saw a gas chamber.

Now, this person crowed about this because this 94-year-old man is on trial for being a guard at the camp from 1942-1944 and stated he never saw a gas chamber in those two years.

Now, I honestly don’t know much about Stutthof other than the general stuff. I remembered it did indeed have a gas chamber but no one ever claimed that it was used for mass gassings. I also thought that like a few other camps it started using its gas chamber later on, I was thinking either 1943 or 1944. So, I asked him to get me information about it and we could discuss it.

He passed me this link:

http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/ ... tthof.html

Now, I’m not going to get into the whole “deathcamps.org” thing. According to them:
The first known gassing at Stutthof occurred on 22 June 1944, when about 100 persons, mainly Poles and Byelorussians were killed. On 26 July 1944, 12 members of a Polish resistance group were gassed, to be followed by approximately 70 invalids transferred from a Soviet POW camp. The camp commandant, SS-Hauptsturmführer Paul Werner Hoppe then received orders to kill the Jewish inmates of the camp. Between August and November 1944 more than 1,450 victims, most of them Jewish women, are known to have been gassed. Some gassings took place in a railway car on a siding leading to the camp. The openings in the gassing car had been hermetically sealed. "Zyklon B" was introduced via an opening in the roof...
According to deathcamps gassing operations ceased in November of 1944.

So, small number of gassings plus many of the victims were not Jews.

So, my point to him was that the guard in question served there for two years but gassings only occurred for about three months until he transferred out. There was no reason for him to be involved in this at all.

Or, shockingly, he could just be lying about not seeing gas chambers. Right now the possibility of perjury is the least of his worries, why add the possibility he participated in gassing prisoners? There’s no proof AFAIK that anyone is alleging he did.

In any case this person became indignant about the whole thing and started throwing old, moldy denier memes at me. At one point I gave him the link for the Holocaust on Wikipedia and told him to learn something about the subject he is trying to debunk.

In any case I thought the information about the guard interesting so I thought I’d share. If anyone knows more about Stutthof in general or the gas chamber in particular feel free to share. I haven’t looked into it very closely.
Last edited by Jeffk 1970 on Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stuthof Guard Says He Saw No Gas Chambers

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:57 pm

I don't know much about the camp (Joachim Neander for sure does) - but it's "Stutthof" (with 2 t's) near Danzig and Natzweiler-Struthof (with an r and one t) southwest of Strasbourg. :)

Blatman says that the gas chamber at Stutthof was constructed in mid-summer 1944 and used to kill 4,000 inmates (women and children whose transport from the camp would be especially challenging) just before the camp was evacuated, which is close to what deathcamps.org has as the time line. According to Blatman, Hoppe had ordered the killing of Jewish prisoners (shooting, lethal injections) arriving from the Baltic region in 1944. (Blatman, The Death Marches, p 112).

The articles I've seen say the Rehbogen's attorney read a general statement from the defendant saying that he didn't know about the murders he's charged with. Rehbogen has not yet testified in court. (Late last year news reports said that two defendants in their 90s were being charged as accessories in the murders at Stutthof.)
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Re: Stutthof Guard Says He Saw No Gas Chambers

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:37 am

Damn spelling monster!!!!

:lol:

Thanks!!!! I fixed!!!
Hopefully all of them... :D
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Re: Stutthof Guard Says He Saw No Gas Chambers

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:46 am

LOL, the number of times I've made the same misspelling I will keep to myself :)
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Re: Stutthof Guard Says He Saw No Gas Chambers

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:48 am

I might dig around in Wachsmann and see what he says about Stutthof.
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Re: Stutthof Guard Says He Saw No Gas Chambers

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:54 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:48 am
I might dig around in Wachsmann and see what he says about Stutthof.
pp 551-552 is where he discusses the minor role played by the gas chamber :)
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Re: Stutthof Guard Says He Saw No Gas Chambers

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:57 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:54 am
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:48 am
I might dig around in Wachsmann and see what he says about Stutthof.
pp 551-552 is where he discusses the minor role played by the gas chamber :)
There, see, you saved me from having to dig around my clunky digital copy... :D

On a personal note this is my 9,500 post. Wow, time flies when a jackass gets elected as president.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

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Re: Stutthof Guard Says He Saw No Gas Chambers

Post by Balmoral95 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:17 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:57 am
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:54 am
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:48 am
I might dig around in Wachsmann and see what he says about Stutthof.
pp 551-552 is where he discusses the minor role played by the gas chamber :)
There, see, you saved me from having to dig around my clunky digital copy... :D

On a personal note this is my 9,500 post. Wow, time flies when a jackass gets elected as president.
49.5% of my posts are in the old Trump thread :lol:

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Re: Stutthof Guard Says He Saw No Gas Chambers

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:24 am

LOL
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Re: Stutthof Guard Says He Saw No Gas Chambers

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:22 am

That Trump thread has serious legs. I’m just curious what it’ll look like in 2 years.

Typed “8” by mistake, crap. That’s the stuff of nightmares. I meant two.
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Re: Stutthof Guard Says He Saw No Gas Chambers

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:11 pm

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Re: Stutthof Guard Says He Saw No Gas Chambers

Post by Aaron Richards » Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:34 pm

Stutthof is a favorite of deniers like Germar Rudolf because it contains Prussian Blue staining.

Here is a short article I wrote about a year ago regarding the gas chamber, probably contains everything you already know, but might refresh things a bit:

imgur.com/GsBikBi
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Re: Stutthof Guard Says He Saw No Gas Chambers

Post by Denying-History » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:09 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:12 pm
Now, I honestly don’t know much about Stutthof other than the general stuff. I remembered it did indeed have a gas chamber but no one ever claimed that it was used for mass gassings. I also thought that like a few other camps it started using its gas chamber later on, I was thinking either 1943 or 1944. So, I asked him to get me information about it and we could discuss it.
If you would like, I can post excerpts from Kogon et al. 1994 with page numbers. The gas chamber primarly was a disinfection chamber and was later used for gassing POW's that were on the verge of dying. Pressac talks about it in a caption on page 541 as well.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Stuthof Guard Says He Saw No Gas Chambers

Post by Denying-History » Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:22 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:57 pm
Blatman says that the gas chamber at Stutthof was constructed in mid-summer 1944 [Emphasis added - D-H] and used to kill 4,000 inmates (women and children whose transport from the camp would be especially challenging) just before the camp was evacuated, which is close to what deathcamps.org has as the time line. According to Blatman, Hoppe had ordered the killing of Jewish prisoners (shooting, lethal injections) arriving from the Baltic region in 1944. (Blatman, The Death Marches, p 112).
4,000 seems a bit to high, but then again I am also not extremely well versed with the camp. Also from Mattogno & Graf:
There are no surviving documents relating to the Stutthof gas chamber, located approximately 10 meters north of the crematorium. According to the official historiography, it was built in 1943 [Emphasis added - D-H] for dis-infestation purposes.
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/ccs/4.html

So perhaps I misunderstood you. Did you mean he claims it shifted use during mid-Summer 1944?
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Stuthof Guard Says He Saw No Gas Chambers

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:46 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:22 am
So perhaps I misunderstood you. Did you mean he claims it shifted use during mid-Summer 1944?
Blatman, The Death Marches, p 112

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Re: Stutthof Guard Says He Saw No Gas Chambers

Post by Balsamo » Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:16 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:09 am
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:12 pm
Now, I honestly don’t know much about Stutthof other than the general stuff. I remembered it did indeed have a gas chamber but no one ever claimed that it was used for mass gassings. I also thought that like a few other camps it started using its gas chamber later on, I was thinking either 1943 or 1944. So, I asked him to get me information about it and we could discuss it.
If you would like, I can post excerpts from Kogon et al. 1994 with page numbers. The gas chamber primarly was a disinfection chamber and was later used for gassing POW's that were on the verge of dying. Pressac talks about it in a caption on page 541 as well.
Maybe it is just me, but can it be that i sense some skepticism in Pressac writings regarding this gas chamber?

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Re: Stutthof Guard Says He Saw No Gas Chambers

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:14 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:09 am
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:12 pm
Now, I honestly don’t know much about Stutthof other than the general stuff. I remembered it did indeed have a gas chamber but no one ever claimed that it was used for mass gassings. I also thought that like a few other camps it started using its gas chamber later on, I was thinking either 1943 or 1944. So, I asked him to get me information about it and we could discuss it.
If you would like, I can post excerpts from Kogon et al. 1994 with page numbers. The gas chamber primarly was a disinfection chamber and was later used for gassing POW's that were on the verge of dying. Pressac talks about it in a caption on page 541 as well.
Yes, thanks. I forgot that Blatman posted about it until SM posted about it.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

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Re: Stuthof Guard Says He Saw No Gas Chambers

Post by Denying-History » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:28 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:46 pm
Denying-History wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:22 am
So perhaps I misunderstood you. Did you mean he claims it shifted use during mid-Summer 1944?
Blatman, The Death Marches, p 112

Image
Yep that's what I thought. I was a bit confused when you said it was "constructed". This seems more consistent with what I have on the camp:
Marek Orski wrote:As optimal conditions for epidemic prevention had to be fulfilled, in June 1943, which was the highest period of the epidemic, the camp's administration decided to put up a small building to perform a summary disinfection of clothes. Previously such works were done by a company in Gdańsk Nowy Port. Camp documents kept as well as the trial archives and the testimonies of the former inmates enable to give a precise date of construction of this object. In June 1943, a gas chamber made of red brick was built in the distance of 20 m from the crematory. As presented in the text of the "Crime scene protocol" dated of 1-15 October 1945 formulated by the District Court in Gdańsk by judge Antoni Zacharasiewicz, the chamber was a brick building of 8.5 x 3.5 x 2.5 m in size, with ceiling of reinforced concrete and two pairs of metal doors which could be closed by the means of hooks or screws. At the southern entrance, from the western part there was a fireplace connected to the chamber with a pipe running inside the wall. The inside of the chamber was plastered and the floor made of concrete. There was a round hole in the middle of the ceiling, where a pipe, 50 cm long and 15 cm in diameter led to the inside of the chamber. On the same height, on the floor, there was a second, square-shaped opening measuring 30 x 30 cm, covered with a wooden lid. It was connected to the camp sewage system to drain off blood and waste.

[...]

The building was erected in the beginning of July 1943 by a group of inmates under the direction of SS-Unterscharführer J. Paul, later the manager of SS building enterprise in the camp[24].

[24] Marek Orski, Przedsiębiorstwa SS i firmy prywatne – najemcy siły roboczej obozu koncentracyjnego Stutthof w latach 1939-1945, Gdańsk 2001, p. 182, 187. According to the testimony of Wacław Lewandowski in 1945, the gas chamber was built in spring or autumn 1943. (AK-IPN, SO Gd., ref. 81a, p. 79). The second version was wrongly taken by the researcher and author of the camp's monograph dated of 30 years ago. Mirosław Gliński, Organizacja obozu koncentracyjnego Stutthof (1 września 1939 – 9 maja 1945), „Stutthof. Zeszyty Muzeum” 1979, p. 107. In spring of 1943, precisely on the turn of May and June, as indicated in the reports of camp employment office and the accounts of former inmates, AMS, ref. I-IIIA-7, reports dated 3, 5, 16 June 1943, pp. 221, 225, 237.
Source:The Extermination of the Stutthof Concentration Camp Prisoners Using the Poisonous Cyclone B Gas By Marek Orski
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Stutthof Guard Says He Saw No Gas Chambers

Post by Denying-History » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:42 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:16 pm
Maybe it is just me, but can it be that i sense some skepticism in Pressac writings regarding this gas chamber?
I don't see it. He gave more detail on 539-40:
Jean-Claude Pressac wrote:It is not known when this gas chamber for delousing prisoners’ effects was installed. Its dimensions (8 meters long, 3 wide and 2.30 high, giving a volume of approximately 55 m³) are close to the standard dimensions of those erected by BOOS or DEGESCH. There are two gas-tight doors, one in the southern end and the other in the northern end. The doors do not seem to be original, since they were missing at the Liberation and there has been modification of the brickwork to adjust to the curved top of the frame, as can be seen by comparison with a photograph of this chamber published on pages 108 and 109 of “1939-45. We have not forgotten” Polonia, Warsaw 1962. The agent used is not known precisely, but given the presence of the external stove (to the left of the door on Photo 6), it must have been either dry heat or hydrocyanic acid [Zyklon-B] used in a heated room. In this case it was not essential to pour the product in through an external opening as an operator wearing a gas mask could distribute the pellets or porous discs on the floor, then go out and close the door. At the end of the cycle, opening the two doors allowed efficent natural ventilation. From 22nd June to the beginning of November 1944, it was used as a homicidal gas chamber for groups of about 100 people. Zyklon-B being poured in through a small opening of 15 cm diameter in the roof, a system apparently introduced on the advice of SS Lieutenant Colonel Rudolf Hoess, former commandant of Auschwitz-Birkenau and at that time head of Department D1 of the WVHA-SS (SS Economic Administration Head Office). While the history of this gas chamber is known from testimonies reported by Father Krzysztof Dunin-Wasowicz, there has been no scientific examination of the “murder weapon” since 1945, which means that we do not know how the chamber functioned as a delousing installation and are unable to provide material proof of its criminal, use. The number of victims is estimated a one or two thousand.
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Re: Stutthof Guard Says He Saw No Gas Chambers

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:45 pm

B-b-b-but Blatman says that the construction of the gas chamber was planned and occurred in mid 1944. And says specifically that at that time "A gas chamber was constructed . . ." I don't think what Blatman wrote aligns with Orski, at least as I read the two. For the heart of his discussion of Stutthof, Blatman cites Dunin-Wasowicz, Glinski, Drywa, Grabowska - and Orski (a different title) - along with testimonies from Harari, Hoppe and Pohl. The paragraph I quoted has citations to Drywa and Harari.

I can't explain the differences, but I don't think that the Orski passage and Blatman's say the same thing.
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Re: Stutthof Guard Says He Saw No Gas Chambers

Post by Denying-History » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:55 pm

I don’t think Blatman gives a specific date for when the gas chamber near the crematorium was built. He states plans existed for one to be built in mid-July 1944 but that’s about it. From what I understand supposedly the 15cm pipe for inserting the canisters of Zyklon-B was added post construction. (Though Mattogno’s probably right that it was always there).

Though I think Blatman’s short description is definitely confused.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Stutthof Guard Says He Saw No Gas Chambers

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:00 pm

B-b-b-but Blatman says that the plan to construct a gas chamber was made in mid-July 1944, that Hoppe then declared that prisoners arriving in poor condition were to be killed at Stutthof - not by gas, that in mid-1944 the use of Zyklon B gas was explored in the camp, and that a gas chamber was constructed and in it prior to the evacuation 4,000 inmates were killed in it. This is in the context of planning for the camp's evacuation, which Blatman says took place October 1944, and in the context of the actual evacuation beginning in January 1945. I don’t see how that is confused or how it matches with a construction date of 1943.

I doubt that Blatman, despite writing about pre-evacuation construction of the chambers and gassings without giving a definite date, meant to jump back a year in time with the sentence describing construction of the chamber and liquidation of 4,000 in it.

Maybe it’s just me, but it seems that Blatman's summarization of his sources conflicts with what Orski wrote.
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Re: Stutthof Guard Says He Saw No Gas Chambers

Post by Denying-History » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:13 pm

Hmm, maybe I’m not reading into Blatman’s paragraph enough. Out with family celebrating an uncles birthday.

Kogon et al 1994 also says 1943 from memory. It’s also Orski’s first source on the date of the gas chambers construction.

Edit: Just checked, it wasn’t Kogon et al but “Neue Studien Zu Nationalsozialistischen Massentötugen Durch Giftgas” p.295. It’s a chapter by Orski so that probably explains the similarity I was thinking about.

As for Blatman, in that context yes it does conflict with Orski’s date. Though I think it’s possible he’s just confused. Regardless Mattogno and Graf’s book quotes a number of sources that all place it’s construction in summer-fall 1943:

« Łukaszkiewicz claims that the gas chamber was built in the fall of 1943 »

« A reference work published in Warsaw in 1979 by the "Commission for the Investigation of Hitlerite Crimes in Poland" contains a very detailed discussion of Stutthof, stating: . . . From the middle of 1944, mass killings were carried out in the gas chamber. It had been built in the fall of 1943. . . »

« The official camp guide states: The smallest building is the gas chamber, the construction of which dates back to the fall of 1943. . . »

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/ccs/3.html
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Stutthof Guard Says He Saw No Gas Chambers

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:42 pm

Right, that's what I think, that Blatman, relying on different sources, differs to Orski (and others). The USHMM Encyclopedia (vol 1, part B, p 1422), for example, is closer to Orski, saying not only that the gas chamber was constructed in September 1943 (vs Orski June-July 1943 but agreeing with Łukaszkiewicz and the commission you cite) but that prisoners were killed in it after that time, too. I originally referred to Blatman only because I recalled his discussing gassing at Stutthof.

All these sources seem to agree that there was a small gas chamber at Stutthof, that most murders there were committed by other means than gassing, and that the gassing program was during the end phase, prior to the evacuation. I don't have the sources to do the topic justice.
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Re: Stutthof Guard Says He Saw No Gas Chambers

Post by Denying-History » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:53 pm

It’s not like I do ether. Mind I’m mainly working off table scraps as well.
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Re: Stutthof Guard Says He Saw No Gas Chambers

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:56 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:53 pm
It’s not like I do ether. Mind I’m mainly working off table scraps as well.
Hey, Hunter S. Thompson was a believer in ether: “The only thing that really worried me was the ether. There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. And I knew we'd get into that rotten stuff pretty soon. Probably at the next gas station.”
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Re: Stutthof Guard Says He Saw No Gas Chambers

Post by Darren Wilshak » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:19 am

Ah yes!
''...it makes you behave like the village drunkard in some early Irish novel...total loss of all basic motor skills: blurred vision, no balance, numb tongue, severance of all connecion between the body and the brain. Which is interesting, because the brain continues to function more or less normally...you can actually watch yourself behaving in this terrible way but you can't control it.'


Hunter S Thompson. Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, Oddyssey editions ebook. P28.

Lets save it for soaking down the rug in the suite.

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Balsamo
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Re: Stutthof Guard Says He Saw No Gas Chambers

Post by Balsamo » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:22 pm

D-H:
Though I think Blatman’s short description is definitely confused.
Well, he should have asked Robin... :mrgreen:

Regarding Pressac, i was inspired by his conclusion here:
This mixed use is an extreme example of the confusion created over a period of thirty years and more by the difficulty of distinguishing between, or the deliberate refusal to distinguish between, disinfestation and homicidal gas chambers.
In the quote you just gave, that is the two precedent pages, he also noted:
"there has been no scientific examination of the “murder weapon” since 1945, which means that we do not know how the chamber functioned as a delousing installation and are unable to provide material proof of its criminal, use"
So my question is on what ground does the prosecution base its allegation of participation to homicidal gassing?

I cannot have an opinion as i know close to nothing about this specific camp.