The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

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The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Goody67 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:29 pm

The recently banned user VFX wrote:
In the policy it is not people who are subhuman, it never has been. It is the ideas of people which denigrate others which is non human as people here try to do. If you do this disrespect then yes you are
untermenschlich. Real people who have culture do not treat others with disrespect.
However, Otto Helmut's published in 1937 in Volk in Gefahr "The Threat of the Subhumans" ("Die Drohung des Untermensch"):

Image

Jews, Poles, Russians, and others were also described as subhumans.
Last edited by Goody67 on Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Goody67 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:45 pm

Goebbels said in a speech at the "Weltgefahr des Bolschewismus" ("World danger of Bolshevism") (1936):
subhumans exist in every people as a leavening agent.
The Nazi propaganda pamphlet "Der Untermensch" in 1942:
As well as all these the pamphlet "Der Untermensch" (The Subhuman) described Jews, Gypsies, blacks and non-whites as subhumans "Mulattos and Finn-Asian barbarians, Gipsy’s and black skin savages all make up this modern underworld of subhumans that is always headed by the appearance of the eternal Jew.
Walther von Reichenau stated in his Severity Order in October 1941:
In this eastern theatre, the soldier is not only a man fighting in accordance with the rules of the art of war, but also the ruthless standard bearer of a national conception and the avenger of bestialities which have been inflicted upon German and racially related nations. For this reason the soldier must learn fully to appreciate the necessity for the severe but just retribution that must be meted out to the subhuman species of Jewry. The Army has to aim at another purpose, i. e., the annihilation of revolts in hinterland which, as experience proves, have always been caused by Jews.
Goebbels issued a propaganda directive in October 1939:
It must be clear to everyone in Germany, down to the last milkmaid, that Polish is the same as subhuman. This message must constantly put over as a central theme, and appear in treatment of standard expressions such as "Polish mismanagement", "Polish depravity", and the like. This should continue until it is embedded in the subconscious of every German that all Poles, whether workers or intellectuals, must be treated like vermin.
Himmler said in March 1936 at the Prussian State Council:
the 'many little subhumans in our service' were 'attached to their master with doglike devotion [...] because he was decent to them.'
Himmler said in Ukraine in 1941:
We are a country in the heart of Europe surrounded by open borders, surrounded by a world that is becoming more and more Bolshevized, and increasingly taken over by the Jew in his worst form, name the tyranny of a totally destructive Bolshevism. To believe that this development is going to come to an end in a year's time, or in several years or even in decades, is culpably reckless and erroneous. We must assume that this struggle will last for generations, for it's the age-old struggle between humans and subhumans in its current new phase of the struggle between the Aryan peoples and Jewry and the organizational form of Jewry has adopted of Bolshevism. I see my task as being to prepare the whole nation for this struggle by buiilding up the police welded together with the order of the SS as the organization to protect the Reich at home just as the Wehrmacht provides protection against threats from abroad.
Himmler said in a speech in 1944:
an Atilla was born in this seething mass of millions of subhumans, in the same way suddenly in some couple of two people the spark can be ignited by means of which an Atilla, a Genghis Khan, a Tamberlaine, a Stalin can emerge from lost traces of Nordic-Germanic-Aryan blood that is floating in this mass and which alone can give rise to powers of leadership and organization.
Himmler speaking when becoming Chief of the German Police on 18 June 1936 stated:
Subhumans threaten the health and life of the national body in two respects: as criminals they damage and undermine the community and they also act as tools and weapons for the plans of those powers hostile to the nation, international, ideological, and intellectual opponents' utilized subhumanity, which is invariably bent on subversion and disorder, but also the supporters of their own political and ideological organizations, in other words, Jewry, Freemasonry, and the politicized churches. Moreover, they utilize all those other groups in the German nation who, whether consciously or having been misled, support special interests that are determined to the German people (Legitimists, etc.).
Martin Bormann in 1943 stated in a memorandum about foreign labourers:
It impossible to win someone over to a new idea while insulting his inner sense of worth at the same time. One cannot expect the highest level of performance from people who are called beasts, barbarians, and subhuman. Instead, positive qualities such as the will to fight Bolshevism, the desire to safeguard one’s own existence and that of one’s country, commitment and willingness to work are to be encouraged and promoted.
Himmler issued in 1943 a secret order to destroy the Warsaw Ghetto, he stated:
An overall plan for the razing of the ghetto is to be submitted to me. In any case we must achieve the disappearance from sight of the living-space for 500,000 sub-humans (Untermenschen) that has existed up to now, but could never be suitable for Germans, and reduce the size of this city of millions – Warsaw – which has always been a center of corruption and revolt.
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:28 am

Not sure what you are getting at, Goody.

Nazi propaganda is not something too many people give credence to these days.

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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:36 am

:hmm: Maybe Goody meant to post the topic in Holocaust, Genocide, and Mass Violence? Or here. :?
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by ElectricMonk » Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:02 am

To even bring up the term not only shows a lack of historical context, but also displays an unfortunately common misunderstanding of Nietzsche.

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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Gord » Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:41 am

Goody67 wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:29 pm
The recently banned user VFX wrote:
In the policy it is not people who are subhuman, it never has been. It is the ideas of people which denigrate others which is non human as people here try to do. If you do this disrespect then yes you are
untermenschlich. Real people who have culture do not treat others with disrespect.
How is the not a Poe?
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Goody67 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:24 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:02 am
To even bring up the term not only shows a lack of historical context, but also displays an unfortunately common misunderstanding of Nietzsche.
Huh? Nietzsche only used the term "Untermensch" once when making a contrast between his concept of an "Übermensch" (superman). However, he did not use the the term in a racial way, the term was used in a racial way by Lothrop Stoddard, Alfred Rosenberg and other Nazis.
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Goody67 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:25 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:28 am
Not sure what you are getting at, Goody.

Nazi propaganda is not something too many people give credence to these days.
I'm making it clear that different ethnic groups and races were described as subhumans by the Nazis.
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:44 pm

What makes you think that's not already known, Goody67?
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Goody67 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:06 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:44 pm
What makes you think that's not already known, Goody67?
There are some people that think the Nazis only used the term against political opponents.

Strangely enough, one could have been categorised as an 'Aryan' and an 'Untermensch'. A subhuman Aryan, who would have thought it?
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:11 am

Whodathunk Nazis were as opportunistic and/or hypocritical as the next guy...
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Pyrrho » Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:18 pm

Moved topic.
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Gord » Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:24 pm
ElectricMonk wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:02 am
To even bring up the term not only shows a lack of historical context, but also displays an unfortunately common misunderstanding of Nietzsche.
Huh? Nietzsche only used the term "Untermensch" once when making a contrast between his concept of an "Übermensch" (superman)....
I thought he used the term in reference to "dwarves" and other mythological beings? (Or maybe that was something I read in a mythology book that I should have taken with a larger grain of salt. Plus it's been years since I read it, so I might have it mixed up. Nietzsche was the one with the mustache, right?...)
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Goody67 » Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:02 pm

Gord wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:23 pm
I thought he used the term in reference to "dwarves" and other mythological beings? (Or maybe that was something I read in a mythology book that I should have taken with a larger grain of salt. Plus it's been years since I read it, so I might have it mixed up. Nietzsche was the one with the mustache, right?...)
You are right. :mrgreen:
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Gord » Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:56 am

Daaaaamn! Gordmemory for the rare win!
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:53 pm

I think Hitler also had a mustache.

Old AHF thread: https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic ... 6&t=211455
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Gord » Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:18 pm

That's not a mustache! That's a bad choice after too much beer!
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Goody67 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:32 am

Hitler said in November 1941:
Time meanwhile has proved what we National Socialists maintained for many years: it [the Soviet Union] is truly a state in which the whole national intelligentsia has been slaughtered, and where only spiritless, forcibly proletarianized subhumans remain. Above them, there is the gigantic organization of the Jewish commissars, that is, established slaveowners. Frequently people wondered whether, in the long run, nationalist tendencies would not be victorious there. But they completely forgot that the bearers of a conscious nationalist view no longer existed. That, in the end, the man who temporarily became the ruler of this state, is nothing other than an instrument in the hands of this almighty Jewry. If Stalin is on stage and steps in front of the curtain, then Kaganovich and all those Jews stand behind him, Jews who, in ten-thousandfold ramifications, control this mighty empire.
November 8, 1941 speech in the Munich Löwenbräukeller on the anniversary of the Putsch

During a conversation in 1941 he said:
Nearly two thousand people in Germany disappear every year without trace—victims, for the most part, of maniacs or sadists. It’s known that these latter are generally recidivists—but the lawyers take great care to inflict only very light penalties on them. And yet these subhuman creatures are the ferment that undermines the state! I make no distinction between them and the brutes who populate our Russian P.O.W. camps.
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:58 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:29 pm
The recently banned user VFX wrote:
In the policy it is not people who are subhuman, it never has been. . . .
In his book Fascists Mann discusses sociologist Theodore Abel's 1934 assessment of 581 essays submitted to him by Nazis ("Why I Became a Nazi"). Among other reasons the Nazi essay writers cited was this (as Mann explains), "These militants were also very strong on 'enemies.' . . . Some 21 percent used terms excluding enemies from human or moral status (such as 'subhuman,' 'rodents,' 'murderers')." Mann notes that the individuals identified in these essays as enemies were described as belonging to a number of groups: Marxists, communists, or Socialists (by far most prevalent); Jews; liberals and capitalists; Catholics; and foreigners.

Similarly, Mann quotes answers to the question "reasons for joining" required on SA application forms (from 1930); a typical entry explained that the applicant wished to support Hitler and Germany "in the battle against communism and the SPD, those traitors to people and homeland, and to support the eradication of these parasites . . ." (pp 144-145)

Mann also discusses how among Volkisch circles in the 'teens and 'twenties, and at German universities, the twin ideas of Gross Deutschland and expansion to the east prevailed: "Though Jews were picked on as the most obvious 'enemy' of such an eastward-tilting project, Slavs were also included." (p 150)

It shouldn't be surprising that the Nazi way of thinking was shared by rank and file Nazis. Although it will come as a shock to VFX.
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Goody67 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:14 pm

So which people did the term "Untermenschen" ("Subhumans") actually include according to the Nazis?

Criminals
Marxists
Bolsheviks
Jews
Poles
Russians
Blacks
Mixed-race
Asians

Many historians and scholars often write that the Nazis considered the Slavs as "Untermenschen", but the closest bit of evidence to support this is Himmler's use of "Untermenschenvolk des Osten" ("Subhuman people of the East"), but that was only used in a secret memorandum and was not shown to the German public. Does anyone know of when the Nazis ever described the Slavs as "subhumans" publicly? I'm dubious about the claim that the Slavs were "subhumans" because the pamphlet Der Untermensch ("The Subhuman") did not make a reference to the Slavs as being Untermenschen ("Subhumans") and was even translated into Slavic languages! Also, the Nazis were allies with Bulgaria, Croatia and Romania, and some Ukrainians and other Slavs collaborated with the Nazis.
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by landrew » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:14 pm

You can't be that specific. The nazis tended to redefine their terms whenever it was convenient. They exterminated and enslaved large numbers of people in the Ukraine, but a number of blonde-haired children were abducted and given to adoption by German families as Lebensborn. Not a very rational decision, assuming they were pure aryan stock based on a single recessive gene that blocks darker pigment in hair color. But there's very little intelligent rationale contained within the nazi philosophy.
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Goody67 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:51 pm

landrew wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:14 pm
You can't be that specific. The nazis tended to redefine their terms whenever it was convenient. They exterminated and enslaved large numbers of people in the Ukraine, but a number of blonde-haired children were abducted and given to adoption by German families as Lebensborn. Not a very rational decision, assuming they were pure aryan stock based on a single recessive gene that blocks darker pigment in hair color. But there's very little intelligent rationale contained within the nazi philosophy.
I disagree with the notion that I cannot be "that specific". There are documents and speeches of various Nazis describing the Jews, Poles and other groups as subhumans, I have yet to find any document or speech in which any Nazi described the Slavs as "subhumans", certain Slavic ethnic groups they did, but not Slavs as a whole group. Similarly, the claim by some historians that the Slavs were considered to be "non-Aryan" is also lacking with evidence; on the contrary, some historians have written quite clearly that the Slavs, like other Europeans, were considered to be "Aryan".

Also, many historians have written about the contradictions between the Nazis' thoughts and practices towards the Slavs.
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by landrew » Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:00 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:51 pm
landrew wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:14 pm
You can't be that specific. The nazis tended to redefine their terms whenever it was convenient. They exterminated and enslaved large numbers of people in the Ukraine, but a number of blonde-haired children were abducted and given to adoption by German families as Lebensborn. Not a very rational decision, assuming they were pure aryan stock based on a single recessive gene that blocks darker pigment in hair color. But there's very little intelligent rationale contained within the nazi philosophy.
I disagree with the notion that I cannot be "that specific". There are documents and speeches of various Nazis describing the Jews, Poles and other groups as subhumans, I have yet to find any document or speech in which any Nazi described the Slavs as "subhumans", certain Slavic ethnic groups they did, but not Slavs as a whole group. Similarly, the claim by some historians that the Slavs were considered to be "non-Aryan" is also lacking with evidence; on the contrary, some historians have written quite clearly that the Slavs, like other Europeans, were considered to be "Aryan".

Also, many historians have written about the contradictions between the Nazis' thoughts and practices towards the Slavs.
You're assuming that they remained consistent with their own policies. I believe they made frequent exceptions at times to suit themselves.
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Goody67 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:43 pm

landrew wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:00 pm
You're assuming that they remained consistent with their own policies. I believe they made frequent exceptions at times to suit themselves.
I did post:
Also, many historians have written about the contradictions between the Nazis' thoughts and practices towards the Slavs.
I'm aware that what the Nazis preached against the Slavs and what was practice during WW2 were two different things.

However, I have not found any evidence that the Nazis considered the Slavs as subhumans. If that were the case, why was it not mentioned in the pamphlet Der Untermensch/The Subhuman? The pamphlet was also translated into Slavic languages.
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Goody67 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:18 am

After Operation Barbarossa, the Nazis taught the Germans to fight against the Jewish-Bolshevik subhumans and the subhumans of the East.

However, in 1941,
Avoid: Using the term “Asiatic” for Bolshevism, and any insult to Asian cultures. Confusing border conflicts with other cultures (e.g., the Arabian battles of Tours and Poitiers) with genuine threats to European culture. Do not say that the Persian kings’ attacks on Greece were a danger to European culture, since the Persians were an advanced Nordic people. Do not say that the Slavic peoples are inferior. (The Slovaks and the Croats are our allies, the Bulgarians our friends). Do not discuss a Catholic “Occidental ideal.” Do not insult the Maygars. Be careful in discussing the Turks, whose expansion under the great sultans cannot be compared with Bolshevism).
(My emphasis.)

Zeitschriften-Dienst
Issue 131— 31 October 1941 — Numbers 5601 - 5637

The newsletter was strictly private and not for the public to view.

https://research.calvin.edu/german-prop ... ve/zd5.htm

If the Nazis had genuinely thought of the Slavic peoples as subhumans then they surely would have said so in private - the complete opposite was advised.

In 1940, Himmler in a secret memorandum titled "Reflections on the Treatment of Peoples of Alien Races in the East" stated the "subhuman people of the East" and during the war described the peoples of the East as racially inferior and subhumans.

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=63400

But, still no explicit mention of the Slavs as subhumans and primary sources seem to contradict the idea that has been repeated by many historians and scholars without any sources given. If anyone can find a single primary source where the Nazis explicitly referred to the Slavs as subhumans, feel free to post it.
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Goody67 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:17 pm

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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Aaron Richards » Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:09 am

Goody67 wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:43 pm
However, I have not found any evidence that the Nazis considered the Slavs as subhumans.
Are you saying the article is trash? Sources are secondary sources:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_po ... aster_Race

However, here's a direct quote from Mein Kampf:

As early as 1925, Hitler suggested in Mein Kampf that the German people needed Lebensraum ("living space") to achieve German expansion eastwards (Drang nach Osten) at the expense of the inferior Slavs. Hitler believed that "the organization of a Russian state formation was not the result of the political abilities of the Slavs in Russia, but only a wonderful example of the state-forming efficacity of the German element in an inferior race."


German original:
Denn die Organisation eines russischen Staatsgebildes war nicht das Ergebnis der staatspolitischen Fähigkeit des Slawentums in Rußland, als vielmehr nur ein wundervolles Beispiel für die staatenbildende Wirksamkeit des germanischen Elements in einer minderwertigen Rasse. […]
Granted, "inferior race" / "minderwertige Rasse" is not the word we're specifically looking for ("subhuman" / Untermensch)....but I'd say after 2 minutes of research it's quite close to declaring Slavs subhuman. The tl;dr version is that VFX is (was) not the brightest tool in the shed.

On the other hand, a subject I find far more intriguing is trying to find all the instances / occurrences when senior Nazi officals used the word "Herrenvolk" or "Herrenrasse" in public speeches, specifically referring to themselves.

Because especially in the anglophone world, the term "master race" has become synonym with nazi ideology, yet the explicit word seems to have rather been mentioned in the writings of german late 19th/early 20th century eugenicists rather than something Nazi officials routinely used.
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Goody67 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:01 pm

Aaron Richards wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:09 am
Are you saying the article is trash? Sources are secondary sources:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_po ... aster_Race
Yes, I am. There is no evidence that the Slavs were "non-Aryan" or "subhumans". On the contrary, there are primary sources which include the Slavs as Aryans and the infamous brochure Der Untermensch ("The Subhuman") was translated into Slavic languages and does not mention the Slavs. But, it is true that the Nazis discriminated against the Russians, Poles and other Slavs on a racial basis during the war e.g. a Polish man was hanged for having sexual relations with a German woman. However, the Nazis struggled to define racially a Pole and there were exceptions. Also, despite the discrimination, ethnic Poles were on the "Aryan side" away from the Jews, Gypsies and other "non-Aryans".
However, here's a direct quote from Mein Kampf:

As early as 1925, Hitler suggested in Mein Kampf that the German people needed Lebensraum ("living space") to achieve German expansion eastwards (Drang nach Osten) at the expense of the inferior Slavs. Hitler believed that "the organization of a Russian state formation was not the result of the political abilities of the Slavs in Russia, but only a wonderful example of the state-forming efficacity of the German element in an inferior race."


German original:
Denn die Organisation eines russischen Staatsgebildes war nicht das Ergebnis der staatspolitischen Fähigkeit des Slawentums in Rußland, als vielmehr nur ein wundervolles Beispiel für die staatenbildende Wirksamkeit des germanischen Elements in einer minderwertigen Rasse. […]
Granted, "inferior race" / "minderwertige Rasse" is not the word we're specifically looking for ("subhuman" / Untermensch)....but I'd say after 2 minutes of research it's quite close to declaring Slavs subhuman. The tl;dr version is that VFX is (was) not the brightest tool in the shed.
I've already posted on the RODOH forum primary documents and speeches which describe the Slavs as racially inferior.

https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 70#p136270

Racially inferior and subhumans are not interchangeable or even necessarily synonymous. An ethnic German who identified as a Marxist was considered to be subhuman, but was still racially a German.
On the other hand, a subject I find far more intriguing is trying to find all the instances / occurrences when senior Nazi officals used the word "Herrenvolk" or "Herrenrasse" in public speeches, specifically referring to themselves.

Because especially in the anglophone world, the term "master race" has become synonym with nazi ideology, yet the explicit word seems to have rather been mentioned in the writings of german late 19th/early 20th century eugenicists rather than something Nazi officials routinely used.
Goebbels in 1936:
Heute steckt in jung und alt, in hoch und niedrig, in arm und reich der besessene Wille, die deutsche Nation wieder zu einem Weltvolk emporzuführen. Jedermann bei uns ist davon überzeugt: Wir müssen an der Beherrschung der Welt teilnehmen. Wir müssen deshalb ein Herrenvolk werden, und deshalb müssen wir unser Volk zum Herrenvolk erziehen. Das muß schon beim kleinsten Pimpf anfangen, der schon in dieser Herrenmoral erzogen werden muß.
And another time:
Er tut auch alles dafür. Aber England steht unserem expansiven Drang im Wege.. . England hat auch eine gute Herrenrasse.
Koch:
Eine Ukraine gibt es nicht. Wir dürfen nicht vergessen, dass wir das Herrenvolk sind.
Hitler during a private speech:
The structure of a state demands that the Herrenvolk does the organising, while a somewhat inferior
mass of people – or let’s call them an undominating kind of people – prostrate themselves to that leadership.’
You will also find examples of it used in ""The Lebensborn Program and The "Herrenvolk" - Fact vs Fiction"":

https://archive.org/stream/TheLebensbor ... n_djvu.txt

http://www.cwporter.com/use1.htm

Although C.W. Porter is a Holocaust revisionist, he does seem to be fairly accurate about the Nazis' usage of the term "master race".
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Goody67 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:25 am

Aaron Richards wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:09 am
Granted, "inferior race" / "minderwertige Rasse" is not the word we're specifically looking for ("subhuman" / Untermensch)....but I'd say after 2 minutes of research it's quite close to declaring Slavs subhuman. The tl;dr version is that VFX is (was) not the brightest tool in the shed.
Below are some examples of historians wrongly citing Nazi primary sources as evidence of the Slavs being described as subhumans.
In 1942 the SS issued a pamphlet titled Der Untermenschen (The Subhumans) that stressed the racial differences between Slavs and Aryans.
Casper Erichsen and David Olusoga, The Kaiser's Holocaust: Germany's Forgotten Genocide and the Colonial Roots of Nazism, p. 335.

Richard Weikart in his book Hitler’s Ethic: The Nazi Pursuit of Evolutionary Progress on p. 72 published the front cover of Der Untermensch and wrote, "Slavs as Subhumans (cover of Nazi pamphlet)". A couple of pages later on p. 74, he wrote, "Hitler's contempt for Slavs as racially inferior subhumans gave him supreme optimism that Germany would ultimately triumph over the Soviet Union."

Image

"Nazi propaganda poster warning Germans about the dangers of east European subhumans"

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... umans.html

The person is clearly not an Eastern European, not even by the Nazis' standards and "Slavs" or "Slavic" are not mentioned anywhere in the text.

According to Jean-Denis Lepage, during the Third Reich:
Biology classes in Nazi Germany schools taught about differences between the race of Nordic German "Übermenschen" and "ignoble" Jewish and Slavic "subhumans".
Hitler Youth, 1922–1945: An Illustrated History, p.91

No source is cited and I have never seen any evidence for the claim.

Guillaume Durocher wrote an article titled "Hitler vs. the Untermenschen: Myth & Reality", and he wrote the following:
The Underman in Hitler’s Speeches

There is no mention of “subhumans” or “subhumanity” in Mein Kampf or in the unpublished Second Book. In Hitler’s numerous speeches – most comprehensively gathered for the 1932-1945 period in Max Domarus’ monumental four-volume collection – I can find no more than three mentions in over 3,000 pages. And even here “subhumanity” (Untermenschentum) is used twice and “subhumans” only once. In each case, Hitler used the term more in a Stoddardian sense of the lower elements of a society being rabble-roused and led by communists, rather than in an ethnic sense targeting Slavs and Gypsies, let alone Jews.

Hitler first used is in a January 30, 1934 speech to the Reichstag, where Hitler used the term “subhumanity” (again, perhaps better rendered as “underhumanity”) to refer to a part of Germany which had become sensitive to Marxism:

Furthermore, the fact that a number of communist ideologists believe it necessary to turn back the tide of history and, in doing so, make use of a subhumanity (Untermenschentum) which mistakes the concept of political freedom for the idea of allowing criminal instincts free rein will similarly cause us little concern. We were able to deal with these elements when they were in power and we were in the opposition. In the future we will be even more certain of being able to deal with them because they are now in the opposition and we are in power.

Hitler’s second mention of Untermenschentum is in an April 28, 1939 speech to the Reichstag attacking Franklin Roosevelt – again refers to communists’ ability to foment revolution by appealing to the lower elements of a Western European nation, this time Civil War Spain:

Entire populations of villages and cities were literally slaughtered under the silent, gracious patronage of humanitarian world apostles from the democracies of Western Europe and North America. In this victory parade, side by side with their Italian comrades, the volunteers of our German Legion will march in the rows of valiant Spanish soldiers. Shortly afterwards we hope to welcome them here in the homeland. The German Volk will then find out how, in this instance also, its valiant sons fought in the defense of the freedom of a most noble people and how, in the end, they contributed to the rescue of European civilization. For the victory of Bolshevist subhumanity (Untermenschentum) in Spain could only too easily have swept over Europe.

In the third instance, in a November 8, 1941 speech in the Munich Löwenbräukeller on the anniversary of the Putsch, there is Hitler’s only confirmed public utterance of the word “Untermenschen”:

Time meanwhile has proved what we National Socialists maintained for many years: it [the Soviet Union] is truly a state in which the whole national intelligentsia has been slaughtered, and where only spiritless, forcibly proletarianized subhumans remain. Above them, there is the gigantic organization of the Jewish commissars, that is, established slaveowners. Frequently people wondered whether, in the long run, nationalist tendencies would not be victorious there. But they completely forgot that the bearers of a conscious nationalist view no longer existed. That, in the end, the man who temporarily became the ruler of this state, is nothing other than an instrument in the hands of this almighty Jewry. If Stalin is on stage and steps in front of the curtain, then Kaganovich and all those Jews stand behind him, Jews who, in ten-thousandfold ramifications, control this mighty empire.

This use could be considered to be in line with that of the “subhumanity” appealed to by communists in Germany and Spain, the only difference being that the revolution that failed there had triumphed in Russia. Hitler could be seen as implying in a novel sense that the Soviet peoples are “subhuman,” but that is by no means explicit. Also noteworthy is that there is no suggestion that the Jews are “subhumans,” but rather than the Jews are cruelly ruling over the undermen as “slaveowners.”

Hitler’s Slavophobia

I can find only one mention of Untermenschen by Hitler that fits the mainstream narrative. In a conversation in the night of September 14–15, 1941, Hitler denounces judges for being too soft on violent German criminals, and compares the latter to Russian prisoners of wars:

Nearly two thousand people in Germany disappear every year without trace—victims, for the most part, of maniacs or sadists. It’s known that these latter are generally recidivists—but the lawyers take great care to inflict only very light penalties on them. And yet these subhuman creatures are the ferment that undermines the state! I make no distinction between them and the brutes who populate our Russian P.O.W. camps.
It's true that there are primary sources in speeches and documents of "Eastern Europeans" being described as "subhumans, so much to the extent that Martin Bormann’s published a Circular of May 5, 1943, which included a Memorandum on the General Principles Governing the Treatment of Foreign Laborers Employed in the Reich (dated April 15, 1943) and stated:
It impossible to win someone over to a new idea while insulting his inner sense of worth at the same time. One cannot expect the highest level of performance from people who are called beasts, barbarians, and subhuman. Instead, positive qualities such as the will to fight Bolshevism, the desire to safeguard one’s own existence and that of one’s country, commitment and willingness to work are to be encouraged and promoted.
http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/doc ... ge_id=2943

The Eastern Europeans were often described as "Asiatic" and "Bolsheviks" in Nazi propaganda, a typical case of that being a propaganda leaflet in 1945:
A rule of Asiatic subhumans over the West is unnatural and contradicts the sense of history.
Omer Bartov, Hitler's Army: Soldiers, Nazis, and War in the Third Reich, p. 135

Himmler in his secret memorandum titled "Reflections on the Treatment of Peoples of Alien Races in the East" wrote:
The parents of such children of good blood will be given the choice to either give away their child; they will then probably produce no more children so that the danger of this subhuman people of the East [Untermenschenvolk des Ostens] obtaining class of leaders which, since it would be equal to us, would also be dangerous for us, will disappear--or else the parents pledge themselves to go to Germany and to become loyal citizens there. The love toward their child, whose future and education depends on the loyalty of the parents, will be a strong weapon in dealing with them.
After the war, there were some Germans who denied that they viewed even the Russians as subhumans. Otto Ernst Remer, a Holocaust denier and far-right activist, said during an interview:
Q: Is it true that the Germans referred to the Russians as "subhumans"?

A: Nonsense! The Russians are human beings just like everyone else.

Your question, whether we called the Russians "subhumans," is nonsense. We had a first-class relationship with the Russian people. The only exception, which was a problem we dealt with, was with the Soviet Commissars, who were all Jews. These people stood behind the lines with machine guns, pushing the Russian soldiers into battle. And anyway, we made quick work of them. That was according to order. This was during a war for basic existence, an ideological war, when such a policy is simply taken for granted.

There was sometimes talk about the so-called Asian hordes, and ordinary soldiers sometimes spoke about subhumans, but such language was never officially used.
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v10/v10p108_Schoeman.html

From The Journal of Historical Review, Spring 1990 (Vol. 10, No. 1), pages 108-117.

That is a lie. The Nazis did explicitly describe the Russians as subhumans.

Himmler during the war said:
It is a war of ideologies and struggle races. On one side stands National Socialism: ideology, founded on the values of our Germanic, Nordic blood. It is worth the world as we want to see: beautiful, orderly, fair, socially, a world that may be, still suffers some flaws, but overall a happy, beautiful world filled with culture, which is precisely Germany. On the other side stands the 180 millionth people, a mixture of races and peoples, whose names are unpronounceable, and whose physical nature is such that the only thing that they can do - is to shoot without pity or mercy. These animals, which are subjected to torture and ill-treatment of each prisoner from our side, which do not have medical care they captured our wounded, as do the decent men, you will see them for yourself. These people have joined a Jewish religion, one ideology, called Bolshevism, with the task of: having now Russian, half [located] in Asia, parts of Europe, crush Germany and the world. When you, my friends, are fighting in the East, you keep that same fight against the same subhumans, against the same inferior races that once appeared under the name of Huns, and later - 1,000 years ago during the time of King Henry and Otto I, - the name of the Hungarians, and later under the name of Tatars, and then they came again under the name of Genghis Khan and the Mongols. Today they are called Russian under the political banner of Bolshevism.
During his infamous Posen speeches he said:
Russian Soldiers On Our Side

One thing is a matter of course in this war: it is better for a Russian to die than a German. If we use the Russians, then they must be mixed with Germans in a ratio of 1:2 to 1:3. The best thing is to use individual Russians; then you can drive with them in a tank. One Russian with 2 or 3 Germans in a tank, magnificent, nothing wrong. But you must never let one Russian meet other Russians driving tanks, otherwise the boys will conspire. But if you wish to have Russian only companies for some reason, then be careful, gentlemen -- and that is not just a thought, gentlemen, that is an order, gentlemen -- they must have their informer apparatus, their NKVD, in this company. Then you can sleep in peace. Otherwise, this is one of the earliest warnings I've issued, take care that these subhumans always look at you; they must always look their superior in the eye. It's like with animals. As long as an animal looks his tamer in the eye, he won't try anything. But have no doubt about one thing: he is a beast. We will be able to utilise the Russians with this attitude; with this attitude we shall be superior to the Slavs at all times. But not with any other attitude.

We want to show the English, the Americans, and the Russian sub-humans that we are tougher; that we, precisely we, the SS, will be those who stand forever.
Last edited by Goody67 on Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Darren Wilshak » Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:20 am

At least he's got rid of his Thatcher icon...
Do they owe us a living?
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Do they owe us a living?
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Do they owe us a living?
ev corse they xxxxxxx do.

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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:51 am

This one's not Maggie?
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Goody67 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:41 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:20 am
At least he's got rid of his Thatcher icon...
Would you like me to change it back for you?

Or, enjoy my currant avatar and sing along to, "You can tell a plane, in the falling rain. I gotta rolls royce, cause its good for my voice, but you won't fool the children of the revolution. No you won't fool the children of the revolution." :gum:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:51 am
This one's not Maggie?
Now now. :)
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:44 pm

Naw, looks more like Marc Bolan. But for a moment I wasn't sure :)
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:22 pm

I really want make this my avatar:

Image

Just haven’t had time lately to work on it.
Last edited by Jeffk 1970 on Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:24 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:22 pm
I really want make this my avatar:
Hmm, you should be able to :)
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:32 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:24 pm
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:22 pm
I really want make this my avatar:
Hmm, you should be able to :)
I need to find a minute. I like it, the bird has charm.

LOL
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Goody67 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:05 pm

Alan Clark in his book Barbarossa: The Russian German Conflict wrote:
During this triumphant period the philosophy of the Untermensch (subhuman) reached its peak, and every report and and photograph from the advancing Nordic armies emphasised the racial inferiority of the enemy—"a mixture of low and lowest humanity, truly subhumans" . . . "degenerate-looking orientals." "This is how the Soviet soldier looks. Mongol physiognomies from the prisoner-of-war camps." The SS publishing house brought out a special magazine entitled, simply, Untermensch, made up of photographs showing the despicable character and appearance of the Eastern foe, "Whether under the Tartars, or Peter, or Stalin, this people is born for the yoke."
He also cited a German soldier who wrote back to his friends back in Germany:
". . . here is a lock of hair from a Russian guerilla girl. They fight like wild-cats and are quite sub-human [Untermensch].
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by landrew » Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:33 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:05 pm
Alan Clark in his book Barbarossa: The Russian German Conflict wrote:
During this triumphant period the philosophy of the Untermensch (subhuman) reached its peak, and every report and and photograph from the advancing Nordic armies emphasised the racial inferiority of the enemy—"a mixture of low and lowest humanity, truly subhumans" . . . "degenerate-looking orientals." "This is how the Soviet soldier looks. Mongol physiognomies from the prisoner-of-war camps." The SS publishing house brought out a special magazine entitled, simply, Untermensch, made up of photographs showing the despicable character and appearance of the Eastern foe, "Whether under the Tartars, or Peter, or Stalin, this people is born for the yoke."
He also cited a German soldier who wrote back to his friends back in Germany:
". . . here is a lock of hair from a Russian guerilla girl. They fight like wild-cats and are quite sub-human [Untermensch].
The true inferiority is revealed in the naive nazi belief that physical appearance has anything to do with genetic superiority. If the science of evolutionary biology has anything to say about it, it's the fact that survival determines fitness. In this case it was the Russians who won the fight for survival over the Germans.
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Goody67 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:48 pm

Does anyone know of any primary source of a document or the transcript of a speech in which the Slavs are described as "subhumans"?

There are primary sources of the Slavs being described as racially inferior, but I have not been able to find a document or the transcript of a speech in which the Slavs are described as "subhumans".
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Re: The concept of Untermensch (Subhuman)

Post by Goody67 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:50 pm

landrew wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:33 pm
The true inferiority is revealed in the naive nazi belief that physical appearance has anything to do with genetic superiority. If the science of evolutionary biology has anything to say about it, it's the fact that survival determines fitness. In this case it was the Russians who won the fight for survival over the Germans.
The Nazis did describe the vast majority of Slavs as racially inferior; according to some Nazi racial theorists, some Slavs were even regarded as racially superior to some Germans!
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