The Chemistry of Auschwitz

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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:08 pm

VFX wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:23 pm
You lot are so busy flapping about and off topic (this was expected) that your obvious lack of scientific knowledge precludes most of you from tackling Germars work.
Says the Germar parrot.
The only one who tried was JeffK who gave or attempted to give a counter report which was so full of emotionalism and lack of real data it does not hold up.


I’m sure if it makes you feel better to think so go ahead, parrot.



No one cares what you concluded.
You lot failed to convince anyone.
No one is trying to convince you of anything.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by VFX » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:12 pm

Nessie wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:54 pm
I am being ignored, having pointed out VFX was wrong to claim there is no documentary evidence of wire mesh devices for krema II.

VFX ignores the error and runs back to "science" where he repeatedly ignores that Rudolf admits he may be wrong. He even shows what else needs to be done to confirm his results. So, again, maybe this time I can get answer from VFX to ...

Please explain why you think Rudolf is able to reach a definitive conclusion when he admits he may be wrong?

Then please explain to me how you think Rudolf can reach a definitive conclusion, when he uses testimony from those you claim are all liars?

Surely no scientist would use use evidence that is flawed, to determine for definite if something happened or not.
The eye witnesses Nessie are either lying or using gross exaggerations or perhaps have seen something and extrapolated a single event. No scientist can reach a definite conclusion but work on probabilities: this is in all endeavors of science. I could point a gun at say a pigs head and pull the trigger, there is a probability of say .999 the bullet will hit the porker and kill it but there is also an 0.001 probability that this will not occur.
As the facts are unknown Germar has to be honest and say so. The scenario I think happened as a possibility is that on August 29, 1942 there was a terrible typhus outbreak which needed containing. Over 746 hospitalized typhus patients waiting for their deaths were euthanized by being carried down to Leichenkeller 1 which was a morgue to isolate them from the others. ZyklonB was sprinkled in the cellar to hasten their deaths and to kill the lice hence stopping the epidemic. This was perhaps seems by Tauber and others who did dispose of the corpses and wrongfully assumed that this was a process of systematic murder.
By our standards today this is a criminal act but at the time might be seen by the SS as compassionate, a hard choice to make in an attempt to save the lives of thousands. As these corpses of typhus victims were probably severely emaciated it is possible more than one corpse could be put into a muffle. The quicker they were disposed off the better. This event seemed to be a fact and at this point I am uncertain if the scenario was repeated on the dying. Perhaps this is also the origin of your "selection to work" scenario you keep on rambling on about. Food for thought perhaps.

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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by Nessie » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:28 pm

VFX wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:12 pm
Nessie wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:54 pm
I am being ignored, having pointed out VFX was wrong to claim there is no documentary evidence of wire mesh devices for krema II.

VFX ignores the error and runs back to "science" where he repeatedly ignores that Rudolf admits he may be wrong. He even shows what else needs to be done to confirm his results. So, again, maybe this time I can get answer from VFX to ...

Please explain why you think Rudolf is able to reach a definitive conclusion when he admits he may be wrong?

Then please explain to me how you think Rudolf can reach a definitive conclusion, when he uses testimony from those you claim are all liars?

Surely no scientist would use use evidence that is flawed, to determine for definite if something happened or not.
The eye witnesses Nessie are either lying or using gross exaggerations or perhaps have seen something and extrapolated a single event.
Which one is it? Please provide evidence.
No scientist can reach a definite conclusion but work on probabilities: this is in all endeavors of science. I could point a gun at say a pigs head and pull the trigger, there is a probability of say .999 the bullet will hit the porker and kill it but there is also an 0.001 probability that this will not occur.
As the facts are unknown Germar has to be honest and say so.
You admit Rudolf may be wrong. Since there is no witness or other contemporary evidence to back up his claims, that would show he is wrong. The only evidenced use of the krema mortuaries was as gas chambers. Logically that means Rudolf's calculations are wrong.
The scenario I think happened as a possibility is that on August 29, 1942 there was a terrible typhus outbreak which needed containing. Over 746 hospitalized typhus patients waiting for their deaths were euthanized by being carried down to Leichenkeller 1 which was a morgue to isolate them from the others. ZyklonB was sprinkled in the cellar to hasten their deaths and to kill the lice hence stopping the epidemic. This was perhaps seems by Tauber and others who did dispose of the corpses and wrongfully assumed that this was a process of systematic murder.
By our standards today this is a criminal act but at the time might be seen by the SS as compassionate, a hard choice to make in an attempt to save the lives of thousands. As these corpses of typhus victims were probably severely emaciated it is possible more than one corpse could be put into a muffle. The quicker they were disposed off the better. This event seemed to be a fact and at this point I am uncertain if the scenario was repeated on the dying. Perhaps this is also the origin of your "selection to work" scenario you keep on rambling on about. Food for thought perhaps.
I am not interested in scenarios, I want what can be evidenced. You have declared all the witnesses lied, so you cannot use any of them. What evidence do you have that the Nazis euthanised those with typhus?
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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by VFX » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:37 pm

Nessie wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:28 pm
I am not interested in scenarios, I want what can be evidenced. You have declared all the witnesses lied, so you cannot use any of them. What evidence do you have that the Nazis euthanised those with typhus?
It is not a scenario it is a fact and it happened on Aug 29 1942 when 746 typhus victims were taken from the hospital to L1 to die. Their death and fumigation of the lice were carried out simultaneously by the auspicious use of Zyklon B.
Selections
As a way of combating a typhus epidemic, SS doctors selected 746 patients suffering or recovering from typhus in the hospital blocks on August 29, 1942.

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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by Nessie » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:05 pm

VFX wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:37 pm
Nessie wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:28 pm
I am not interested in scenarios, I want what can be evidenced. You have declared all the witnesses lied, so you cannot use any of them. What evidence do you have that the Nazis euthanised those with typhus?
It is not a scenario it is a fact and it happened on Aug 29 1942 when 746 typhus victims were taken from the hospital to L1 to die. Their death and fumigation of the lice were carried out simultaneously by the auspicious use of Zyklon B.
Selections
As a way of combating a typhus epidemic, SS doctors selected 746 patients suffering or recovering from typhus in the hospital blocks on August 29, 1942.
Do you accept all of what that source quotes?

"As a way of combating a typhus epidemic, SS doctors selected 746 patients suffering or recovering from typhus in the hospital blocks on August 29, 1942. They sent them to the Birkenau gas chambers. When carrying out selection in the hospitals, until November 1944, SS doctors sometimes picked several thousand prisoners at a time. As indicated above, only Jews were subject to such selection after August 1943."
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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:09 pm

It’s funny that VFX just confirmed that not only were gassings possible but were carried out.

So, all this thrashing about over if it was possible to gas prisoners....and VFX just shows that it was indeed possible and gives an example where it happened.

Good grief. Holy moly.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by VFX » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:14 pm

Nessie wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:05 pm
Do you accept all of what that source quotes?
Obviously not as the author has got the facts of the euthanasia and attempted to use that to fit in with the "official narrative" of pre existing gas chambers. I really do think however, the euthanasia gassing was a fact and a potential source of the myth. Friedrich claims there was no gassings at Birkenau but this disposes of that assumption even if it was for euthansia.

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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by Nessie » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:17 pm

VFX wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:14 pm
Nessie wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:05 pm
Do you accept all of what that source quotes?
Obviously not as the author has got the facts of the euthanasia and attempted to use that to fit in with the "official narrative" of pre existing gas chambers. I really do think however, the euthanasia gassing was a fact and a potential source of the myth. Friedrich claims there was no gassings at Birkenau but this disposes of that assumption even if it was for euthansia.
How do you know

"As a way of combating a typhus epidemic, SS doctors selected 746 patients suffering or recovering from typhus in the hospital blocks on August 29, 1942. They sent them to the Birkenau gas chambers."

is a fact and

"When carrying out selection in the hospitals, until November 1944, SS doctors sometimes picked several thousand prisoners at a time. As indicated above, only Jews were subject to such selection after August 1943."

is a myth?
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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by VFX » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:21 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:09 pm
It’s funny that VFX just confirmed that not only were gassings possible but were carried out.

So, all this thrashing about over if it was possible to gas prisoners....and VFX just shows that it was indeed possible and gives an example where it happened.

Good grief. Holy moly.
This is quite different to the official narrative. What we have here is 746 very sick dying people with no hope of survival. If they were animals it would be cruel to leave them in such a condition so the decision must have been made to euthanase them to stop the suffering and to prevent more deaths from typhus. I have no idea if these were Jude or other victims; could even have been some Ss men in there. Unlike the official gassing scenario these dying people would be laid on the morgue floor and Zb sprinkled over them while they lay there for a night. This would have done the job albeit slowly. It is easy to see how this scenario could be misconstrued.

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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by VFX » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:26 pm

Nessie wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:17 pm


"When carrying out selection in the hospitals, until November 1944, SS doctors sometimes picked several thousand prisoners at a time. As indicated above, only Jews were subject to such selection after August 1943."
is a myth?
We all know the official fiction which you want to run with and nothing will change your mind, even if hard truth sprung up and bit you on your arse. You want it to be true whatever the cost because you do not want it to be any other way. We all know the reason for this don't we Nessie.
However, as facts slowly emerge a different scenario is developing which makes more sense.

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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:40 pm

Nessie wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:17 pm
VFX wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:14 pm
Nessie wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:05 pm
Do you accept all of what that source quotes?
Obviously not as the author has got the facts of the euthanasia and attempted to use that to fit in with the "official narrative" of pre existing gas chambers. I really do think however, the euthanasia gassing was a fact and a potential source of the myth. Friedrich claims there was no gassings at Birkenau but this disposes of that assumption even if it was for euthansia.
How do you know

"As a way of combating a typhus epidemic, SS doctors selected 746 patients suffering or recovering from typhus in the hospital blocks on August 29, 1942. They sent them to the Birkenau gas chambers."

is a fact and

"When carrying out selection in the hospitals, until November 1944, SS doctors sometimes picked several thousand prisoners at a time. As indicated above, only Jews were subject to such selection after August 1943."

is a myth?
Because one makes his heroes look “compassionate” and the other makes them look homicidal. It’s a very important distinction for VFX.

Never mind that typhus is not universally fatal and that patients can recover if given time to heal.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:50 pm

VFX wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:21 pm

This is quite different to the official narrative.
Not so much, sick patients were frequently selected to die.
What we have here is 746 very sick dying people with no hope of survival.
Given proper treatment and rest they could survive, typhus is not universally fatal and people can recover.
If they were animals it would be cruel to leave them in such a condition so the decision must have been made to euthanase them to stop the suffering and to prevent more deaths from typhus.
I’m sure it had nothing to do with the fact that the sick were regularly selected and gassed if they didn’t recover fast enough..
SARCASM ALERT

I have no idea if these were Jude or other victims; could even have been some Ss men in there.
I doubt it, this is a perfect example of you constructing scenarios that fit your little worldview.
Unlike the official gassing scenario these dying people would be laid on the morgue floor and Zb sprinkled over them while they lay there for a night. This would have done the job albeit slowly. It is easy to see how this scenario could be misconstrued.
You seriously just made all of that up..holy moly.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by VFX » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:07 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:40 pm
Never mind that typhus is not universally fatal and that patients can recover if given time to heal.
It seems this was fairly terminal for these patients. Do your research it has been a major cause of death in all wars. Your extrapolation from this event to the official narrative is unwarranted and certainly unevidenced: more of a wanking knee jerk reaction. You and Nessie both seem to be a special kind of stupid.

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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:13 pm

>> This is quite different to the official narrative.

He says, quoting from the official Auschwitz-Birkeanau museum website! LOL
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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by VFX » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:16 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:13 pm
>> This is quite different to the official narrative.

He says, quoting from the official Auschwitz-Birkeanau museum website! LOL
How silly are you. If we are dissing the official narrative we need to quote them. Is that hard for your neurons to figure out?

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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:54 pm

VFX wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:07 pm


It seems this was fairly terminal for these patients.
That happens when your captors deny you adequate food, water and rest.
Do your research it has been a major cause of death in all wars.
Of course. It was also a major cause of death in ghettos and camps due to the overcrowding, poor food and unsanitary conditions.
Your extrapolation from this event to the official narrative is unwarranted and certainly unevidenced: more of a wanking knee jerk reaction.
Actually I looked at what you posted, I didn’t make {!#%@} up like you did...like sprinkling ZB on sick prisoners lying sedately on the morgue floor. Did they treat it like table salt? You also cherrypicked what the link said, hypocrite.
You and Nessie both seem to be a special kind of stupid.
Oh, the irony in that statement. This is coming from the person who says the Germans sprinkled ZB on sick patients like they were making a salad.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:09 pm

Nessie wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:05 pm
VFX wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:37 pm
Nessie wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:28 pm
I am not interested in scenarios, I want what can be evidenced. You have declared all the witnesses lied, so you cannot use any of them. What evidence do you have that the Nazis euthanised those with typhus?
It is not a scenario it is a fact and it happened on Aug 29 1942 when 746 typhus victims were taken from the hospital to L1 to die. Their death and fumigation of the lice were carried out simultaneously by the auspicious use of Zyklon B.
Selections
As a way of combating a typhus epidemic, SS doctors selected 746 patients suffering or recovering from typhus in the hospital blocks on August 29, 1942.
Do you accept all of what that source quotes?

"As a way of combating a typhus epidemic, SS doctors selected 746 patients suffering or recovering from typhus in the hospital blocks on August 29, 1942. They sent them to the Birkenau gas chambers. When carrying out selection in the hospitals, until November 1944, SS doctors sometimes picked several thousand prisoners at a time. As indicated above, only Jews were subject to such selection after August 1943."
Nessie asked "What evidence do you have that the Nazis euthanised those with typhus?" VFX offered a selection of 29 August 1942 which took place "as a way of combating a typhus epidemic."

We don't need to speculate, or resort to anti-Semitic language, in trying to understand this selection. (As VFX does, "I have no idea if these were Jude or other victims; could even have been some Ss men in there.")

The action which VFX cited is well known and was not a case of "euthanasia." Rather, it was a mass murder of weak and sick prisoners, some brought from the Buna works. The selection and murder are described both as a way of getting rid of sick prisoners to combat disease and simply a means of killing off inconvenient prisoners who were recovering from disease or otherwise weakened from conditions in the camp.

This action is discussed in Danuta Czech, entry for, er, 29 August 1942, pp 229-230 of Auschwitz Chronicle. She says that it was ordered by garrison doctor Uhlendorf and took place "on the pretext of fighting typhus"; the selection occurred "in the corridors and staircases leading to the closed courtyard between Blocks 20 and 21 of the main camp." Doctors Entress and Klehr carried out the selection. Trucks took the prisoners selected for gassing to Birkenau. A total of 746 were selected and gassed; some prisoners managed to hide themselves and escape selection.

Czech's sources are:
Kielar, Anus Mundi, pp 155-160 (Kielar survived the selection)
Höss's trial (APMO vol 2, p 155; vol 4, p 177; vol 7, pp 17, 116, 156, 175, Statements of Former Prisoners)
Mat.RO vol 1, p 6 (this is a collection of camp resistance documents)

I'm not able to check Höss trial documentation or Mat.RO.

The museum's official five-volume history describes this action as "The first operation involving the mass killing of camp hospital patients with Zyklon B." Here Uhlendorf is described as having determined to "do something about the typhoid fever epidemic in the main camp." Heretofore, phenol injections had been the method of choice in killing of selected patients in the Stammlager ("a dozen to several score prisoners . . . every day") through April 1943, as well as, increasingly, at Birkenau. After the 29 August 1943 gassing action, according to the text, SS physicians periodically selected very ill patients and physically exhausted inmates for liquidation in the gas chambers, with selections involving only Jewish patients after August 1943 (examples of other selections in Birkenau, not the main camp, are given). (vol II, pp 325-326)

Kielar describes how he was recovering well at the time of the selection but he and his friend Roman were to be gassed anyway. He says that "All who are ill, without exception" were to be taken from the hospital block to Birkenau. It is false to say that this was a selection of sick prisoners "with no hope of survival": "I had been so glad to survive this beastly typhus. I had one last hope: perhaps it wasn't true." According to Kielar, the selection the next morning was conducted by Entress and Klehr: Kielar's number was read out (290 - he was an early Polish prisoner in Auschwitz) and he was placed in the group slated for execution - but, ignoring the order to board the truck bound for "the so-called convalescent block in Birkenau - in other words, to the gas chamber," Kielar managed to extricate himself from the selection by talking his way onto the orderly staff; Kielar's friend Roman evaded the selection by remaining hidden in a sewer. (English version, pp 98-110)

edit: fixing spellcheck's dirty work - "Entree" back to "Entress." also to address a few typos grrrr
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:42 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:45 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:09 pm
Nessie wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:05 pm
VFX wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:37 pm
Nessie wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:28 pm
I am not interested in scenarios, I want what can be evidenced. You have declared all the witnesses lied, so you cannot use any of them. What evidence do you have that the Nazis euthanised those with typhus?
It is not a scenario it is a fact and it happened on Aug 29 1942 when 746 typhus victims were taken from the hospital to L1 to die. Their death and fumigation of the lice were carried out simultaneously by the auspicious use of Zyklon B.
Selections
As a way of combating a typhus epidemic, SS doctors selected 746 patients suffering or recovering from typhus in the hospital blocks on August 29, 1942.
Do you accept all of what that source quotes?

"As a way of combating a typhus epidemic, SS doctors selected 746 patients suffering or recovering from typhus in the hospital blocks on August 29, 1942. They sent them to the Birkenau gas chambers. When carrying out selection in the hospitals, until November 1944, SS doctors sometimes picked several thousand prisoners at a time. As indicated above, only Jews were subject to such selection after August 1943."
Nessie asked "What evidence do you have that the Nazis euthanised those with typhus?" VFX offered a selection of 29 August 1942 which took place "as a way of combating a typhus epidemic."

We don't need to speculate, or resort to anti-Semitic language, in trying to understand this selection. (As VFX does, "I have no idea if these were Jude or other victims; could even have been some Ss men in there.")

The action which VFX cited is well known and was not a case of "euthanasia." Rather, it was a mass murder of weak and sick prisoners, some brought from the Buna works. The selection and murder are described both as a way of getting rid of sick prisoners to combat disease and simply a means of killing off inconvenient prisoners who were recovering from disease or otherwise weakened from conditions in the camp.

This action is discussed in Danuta Czech, entry for, er, 29 August 1942, pp 229-230 of Auschwitz Chronicle. She says that it was ordered by garrison doctor Uhlendorf and took place "on the pretext of fighting typhus"; the selection occurred "in the corridors and staircases leading to the closed courtyard between Blocks 20 and 21 of the main camp." Doctors Entress and Klehr carried out the selection. Trucks took the prisoners selected for gassing to Birkenau. A total of 746 were selected and gassed; some prisoners managed to hide themselves and escape selection.

Czech's sources are:
Kielar, Anus Mundi, pp 155-160 (Kielar survived the selection)
Höss's trial (APMO vol 2, p 155; vol 4, p 177; vol 7, pp 17, 116, 156, 175, Statements of Former Prisoners)
Mat.RO vol 1, p 6 (this is a collection of camp resistance documents)

I'm not able to check Höss trial documentation or Mat.RO.

The museum's official five-volume history describes this action as "The first operation involving the mass killing of camp hospital patients with Zyklon B." Here Uhlendorf is described as having determined to "do something about the typhoid fever epidemic in the main camp." Heretofore, phenol injections had been the method of choice in killing of selected patients in the Stammlager ("a dozen to several score prisoners . . . every day") through April 1943, as well as, increasingly, at Birkenau. After the 29 August 1943 gassing action, according to the text, SS physicians periodically selected very ill patients and physically exhausted inmates for liquidation in the gas chambers, with selections involving only Jewish patients after August 1943 (an example of such a selection in Birkenau, not the main camp, is given). (vol V, pp 325-326)

Kielar describes how he was recovering well at the time of the selection but he and his friend Roman were to be gassed anyway. He says that "All who are ill, without exception" were to be taken from the hospital block to Birkenau. It is false to say that this was a selection of sick prisoners "with no hope of survival": "I had been so glad to survive this beastly typhus. I had one last hope: perhaps it wasn't true." According to Kielar, the selection the next morning was conducted by Entree and Klehr: Kielar's number was read out (290 - he was an early Polish prisoner in Auschwitz) and he was placed in the group slated for execution - but, ignoring the order to board the truck bound for "the so-called convalescent block in Birkenau - in other words, to the gas chamber," Kielar managed to extricate himself from the selection by talking his onto the orderly staff; Kielar's friend Roman evaded the selection by remaining hidden in a sewer. (English version, pp 98-110)
Hey lookie here, this is mentioned in..... books.... :mrgreen:

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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:58 am

The other irony here is that, after he declared that "We as in RODOH have discounted the liewitnesses totally," VFX presents a case (one he failed to understand because he refuses to check into what he googles) that we know about, based on citations in Czech and vol II of the museum camp history, only from witness accounts:

- Kielar's book Anus Mundi
- prisoner testimonies (e.g., Jan Dziopek, Miesczysław Kieta) at the Höss trial
- camp resistance documents (texts written by Edward Biernacki and Bogusław Ohrt)
- memoirs of former prisoners Aleksander Kalczyński and Stanisław Serafin
- prisoner Stanisław Glowa
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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by VFX » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:29 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:09 pm
Nessie wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:05 pm
VFX wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:37 pm
Nessie wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:28 pm
I am not interested in scenarios, I want what can be evidenced. You have declared all the witnesses lied, so you cannot use any of them. What evidence do you have that the Nazis euthanised those with typhus?
It is not a scenario it is a fact and it happened on Aug 29 1942 when 746 typhus victims were taken from the hospital to L1 to die. Their death and fumigation of the lice were carried out simultaneously by the auspicious use of Zyklon B.
Selections
As a way of combating a typhus epidemic, SS doctors selected 746 patients suffering or recovering from typhus in the hospital blocks on August 29, 1942.
Do you accept all of what that source quotes?

"As a way of combating a typhus epidemic, SS doctors selected 746 patients suffering or recovering from typhus in the hospital blocks on August 29, 1942. They sent them to the Birkenau gas chambers. When carrying out selection in the hospitals, until November 1944, SS doctors sometimes picked several thousand prisoners at a time. As indicated above, only Jews were subject to such selection after August 1943."
Nessie asked "What evidence do you have that the Nazis euthanised those with typhus?" VFX offered a selection of 29 August 1942 which took place "as a way of combating a typhus epidemic."

We don't need to speculate, or resort to anti-Semitic language, in trying to understand this selection. (As VFX does, "I have no idea if these were Jude or other victims; could even have been some Ss men in there.")

The action which VFX cited is well known and was not a case of "euthanasia." Rather, it was a mass murder of weak and sick prisoners, some brought from the Buna works. The selection and murder are described both as a way of getting rid of sick prisoners to combat disease and simply a means of killing off inconvenient prisoners who were recovering from disease or otherwise weakened from conditions in the camp.

This action is discussed in Danuta Czech, entry for, er, 29 August 1942, pp 229-230 of Auschwitz Chronicle. She says that it was ordered by garrison doctor Uhlendorf and took place "on the pretext of fighting typhus"; the selection occurred "in the corridors and staircases leading to the closed courtyard between Blocks 20 and 21 of the main camp." Doctors Entress and Klehr carried out the selection. Trucks took the prisoners selected for gassing to Birkenau. A total of 746 were selected and gassed; some prisoners managed to hide themselves and escape selection.

Czech's sources are:
Kielar, Anus Mundi, pp 155-160 (Kielar survived the selection)
Höss's trial (APMO vol 2, p 155; vol 4, p 177; vol 7, pp 17, 116, 156, 175, Statements of Former Prisoners)
Mat.RO vol 1, p 6 (this is a collection of camp resistance documents)

I'm not able to check Höss trial documentation or Mat.RO.

The museum's official five-volume history describes this action as "The first operation involving the mass killing of camp hospital patients with Zyklon B." Here Uhlendorf is described as having determined to "do something about the typhoid fever epidemic in the main camp." Heretofore, phenol injections had been the method of choice in killing of selected patients in the Stammlager ("a dozen to several score prisoners . . . every day") through April 1943, as well as, increasingly, at Birkenau. After the 29 August 1943 gassing action, according to the text, SS physicians periodically selected very ill patients and physically exhausted inmates for liquidation in the gas chambers, with selections involving only Jewish patients after August 1943 (examples of other selections in Birkenau, not the main camp, are given). (vol II, pp 325-326)

Kielar describes how he was recovering well at the time of the selection but he and his friend Roman were to be gassed anyway. He says that "All who are ill, without exception" were to be taken from the hospital block to Birkenau. It is false to say that this was a selection of sick prisoners "with no hope of survival": "I had been so glad to survive this beastly typhus. I had one last hope: perhaps it wasn't true." According to Kielar, the selection the next morning was conducted by Entress and Klehr: Kielar's number was read out (290 - he was an early Polish prisoner in Auschwitz) and he was placed in the group slated for execution - but, ignoring the order to board the truck bound for "the so-called convalescent block in Birkenau - in other words, to the gas chamber," Kielar managed to extricate himself from the selection by talking his way onto the orderly staff; Kielar's friend Roman evaded the selection by remaining hidden in a sewer. (English version, pp 98-110)

edit: fixing spellcheck's dirty work - "Entree" back to "Entress." also to address a few typos grrrr
Pathetic

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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:30 am

That's your real name, then?
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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by VFX » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:36 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:30 am
That's your real name, then?
You are more pathetic than the others hiding as albumin within your shell. You are a broken man at the bottom of a wall... now that is a disability.

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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:00 am

Speaking of disabilities, what's your therapist say about this:

"One does not become a National Socialist. One only discovers, sooner or later, that one has always been one—that, by nature, one could not possibly be anything else."

You can't help claiming kinship to the losers you adore? Bummer.
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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by VFX » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:04 am

wrote:scrmbldggs post_id=670440 time=1540879203 user_id=12266
You can't help claiming kinship to the losers you adore? Bummer.
I am not an egg, what about you scrambled. You are part calcium carbonate which makes you somewhat amorphous but never marbled. A nothing really...common egg.

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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:11 am

VFX wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:04 am
wrote:scrmbldggs post_id=670440 time=1540879203 user_id=12266
You can't help claiming kinship to the losers you adore? Bummer.
I am not an egg, what about you scrambled. You are part calcium carbonate which makes you somewhat amorphous but never marbled. A nothing really...common egg.
What's with your obsession with ovums? Does that run in your troupe? Monty had similar seizures... :nuts:
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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by VFX » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:24 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:11 am
What's with your obsession with ovums? Does that run in your troupe? Monty had similar seizures... :nuts:
Don't take this personally eggs but your intellect is very limited to the point of being scrambled or poached. Heat does this this as it does to all protein. Just dip yourself in a little water and hopefully some gelatin might form, and you might morph into a rather large jelly baby like the President of the United States.

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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:26 am

The only thing scrambled here seems your brain. A close proximity to monty is to blame?
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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by VFX » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:29 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:26 am
The only thing scrambled here seems your brain. A close proximity to monty is to blame?
I guess brains and eggs are similar in a fashion, though your albumin is far less organized, though I have heard it does eventually form chickens. So what came first eggs, a chicken or you.

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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by Gord » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:36 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:26 am
The only thing scrambled here seems your brain. A close proximity to monty is to blame?
I had the sense that they were related somehow. Maybe brothers?
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:39 am

Gord wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:36 am
scrmbldggs wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:26 am
The only thing scrambled here seems your brain. A close proximity to monty is to blame?
I had the sense that they were related somehow. Maybe brothers?
Or sisters?
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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by VFX » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:39 am

Gord wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:36 am
scrmbldggs wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:26 am
The only thing scrambled here seems your brain. A close proximity to monty is to blame?
I had the sense that they were related somehow. Maybe brothers?
Everyone on this planet is related. Guess you should do a mDNA test or something. This might give a little better perspective you your fireside complacency.

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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:42 am

Considering the crushes they develop... :soppy:
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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by Gord » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:46 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:39 am
Gord wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:36 am
scrmbldggs wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:26 am
The only thing scrambled here seems your brain. A close proximity to monty is to blame?
I had the sense that they were related somehow. Maybe brothers?
Or sisters?
True. Half the men online are women, after all.

And half the women are men.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by VFX » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:52 am

Gord wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:46 am
scrmbldggs wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:39 am
Gord wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:36 am
scrmbldggs wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:26 am
The only thing scrambled here seems your brain. A close proximity to monty is to blame?
I had the sense that they were related somehow. Maybe brothers?
Or sisters?
True. Half the men online are women, after all.

And half the women are men.
Instead of this BS try actually talking about the topic thread which I know you cannot due to lack of scientific integrity. You silly people are making this forum a joke. At least try and stay on topic. This was expected which is why it was posted and so will much much more to see the same childish nonsense.

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Re: Are VFX and monty siblings?

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:46 am

VFX wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:52 am
Gord wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:46 am
scrmbldggs wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:39 am
Gord wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:36 am
scrmbldggs wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:26 am
The only thing scrambled here seems your brain. A close proximity to monty is to blame?
I had the sense that they were related somehow. Maybe brothers?
Or sisters?
True. Half the men online are women, after all.

And half the women are men.
Instead of this BS try actually talking about the topic thread which I know you cannot due to lack of scientific integrity. You silly people are making this forum a joke. At least try and stay on topic. This was expected which is why it was posted and so will much much more to see the same childish nonsense.
What are you talking about? We are on topic. You are off. :roll:
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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by Nessie » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:47 am

VFX wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:26 pm
Nessie wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:17 pm


"When carrying out selection in the hospitals, until November 1944, SS doctors sometimes picked several thousand prisoners at a time. As indicated above, only Jews were subject to such selection after August 1943."
is a myth?
We all know the official fiction which you want to run with and nothing will change your mind, even if hard truth sprung up and bit you on your arse. You want it to be true whatever the cost because you do not want it to be any other way. We all know the reason for this don't we Nessie.
However, as facts slowly emerge a different scenario is developing which makes more sense.
What facts? I get are denier claims that evidence has been produced, but when I ask to see it all I get are excuses and no evidence appears. Or, I get claims evidence is on its way, but none has ever appeared.
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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by Darren Wilshak » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:02 am

This is the beaker into things being 'hard' who blithely told us concerning Krematorium II's zyklon B wire mesh distribution columns:

''Next, there is no documentary or physical evidence that these columns ever existed.''

Where do you get your information from VFX, the Junior encyclopedia of Holocaust denial ploys?

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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by Darren Wilshak » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:07 am

Maybe she has some soft facts as well to accompany the softness in zie head since he/she was born a Nazi after all.

Do you have dreams about this VFX.

Are you sure you are not mixing up your last life as some lowly Nazi functionary male brown shirt with this one?

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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by Nessie » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:23 am

VFX has failed to notice that all Rudolf has done is pose a hypothesis, dressed up to look like it is a proven fact.

What we have is an evidenced historical investigation (which despite VFXs claims, is evidenced with documents such as the wire mesh device for krema II he did not know about) versus a scientific hypothesis that is not backed up by any experimentation and is the subject of much disagreement.

It speaks volumes to how agenda driven deniers are that they prefer the unevidenced claims to the evidenced ones.
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Re: The Chemistry of Auschwitz

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:53 am

VFX wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:29 am
Pathetic
Indeed, your attempt to pass off a mass murder action, as Nessie and Jeffk explained, as "euthanasia"; your general ignorance about the topics you post on; your reliance on snippets you find online; your laziness and lack of curiosity about what happened and what the sources say; your trying to support your dishonesty with the very witness testimonies you dismiss - without even knowing it; your inability to understand what you turn up in your desperate searches; and your witless speculation that a documented killing of "inconvenient" prisoners became confused with the Jewish actions are all pathetic.

Oh, and also your inability to admit when you screw up - extremely pathetic.

So, now that you've ID'ed your way of working as pathetic we can move on. Tell us, please, why did you try to present an instance of the mass murder of weak and ill but recovering patients as a "compassionate act"? In what way, according to you, were the selection and murder on 29 August 1942 "quite different to the official narrative"?
. . . all right we are two nations . . .