RODOH user claims that the Poles massacred the Germans prior to WW2 in 1939

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RODOH user claims that the Poles massacred the Germans prior to WW2 in 1939

Post by Goody67 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:40 am

Although the claim goes back a little bit further than the link I am going to post, read what the RODOH user Werd claims about the Poles:

https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 10#p133282

He is so stupid to realise that his own sources (Nazi propaganda books about the Polish atrocities) disprove his claim that the Poles massacred the Germans prior to WW2.

The Bromberg massacre happened after WW2 began and 58,000 Germans were not killed which was the figure the Nazis published in 1940 for propaganda purposes.
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Re: RODOH user claims that the Poles massacred the Germans prior to WW2 in 1939

Post by Reaktori » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:15 am

According to Dieter Schenk in "Hitlers Mann in Danzig" the figure of 58,000 was straight up invented by Hitler himself:

"Die Zahl der Opfer ist in der Literatur unterschiedlich angegeben worden und dürfte zwischen 1500 und 5800 gelegen haben. In dieser Höhe wurde sie von dem Leiter der Mordkommission des Reichssicherheitshauptamtes, Dr Bernhard Wehner, in einer ausführlichen Zeugen-Vernehmung nach dem Kriege beziffert (3479 Tote errechnete Gentzen anhand der Gräber- und Vermisstenkartei). Wehner war mit den Ermittlung in Bromberg beauftragt worden und meldete zunächst die Zahl 5800 Mitte Dezember 1939 dem Auswärtigen Amt, das mit dem Erstellen eines deutschen Weissbuches befasst war. Wehner berichtete: 'Kurze Zeit später erfuhr ich, dass Hitler wegen dieses Weissbuches sehr erregt gewesen sei. Auf seinen Befehl musste die gesamte gedruckte Auflage im Februar oder März 1940 eingestampft werden.' Hitler ordnete an, dass in der von ihm genehmigten Ausgabe die Zahl der Opfer zu verzehnfachen sei. Damit wurde von der deutschen Propaganda die Zahl von 58,000 Mordopfern der 'polnischen Septembermorde' übernommen. Intern korrigierte Wehner später die Gesamtzahl auf 3500 nach unten, nachdem in ehemals polnischen Gebiet deutsche Polizeidienststellen 'ordnungsgemäss' arbeiteten und die Vermisstenfälle erfassten."

Translation using DeepL:

"The number of victims was stated differently in the literature and was probably between 1500 and 5800. The head of the Homicide Commission of the Reich Security Main Office, Dr Bernhard Wehner, quantified this number in a detailed testimony after the war (3479 dead were calculated by Gentzen on the basis of the grave and missing persons file). Wehner had been commissioned with the investigation in Bydgoszcz and first reported the number 5800 to the Foreign Office in mid-December 1939, which was responsible for preparing a German White Paper. Wehner reported: 'A short time later I learned that Hitler had been very excited about this White Paper. On his order, the entire printed edition had to be stamped in February or March 1940.' Hitler ordered that in the edition approved by him the number of victims be increased tenfold. Thus the number of 58,000 murder victims of the 'Polish September murders' was taken over by German propaganda. Internally, Wehner later corrected the total number downwards to 3500, after German police stations in former Polish territory worked 'properly' and recorded the missing cases."

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Re: RODOH user claims that the Poles massacred the Germans prior to WW2 in 1939

Post by Goody67 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:42 pm

That coincides with what Richard J. Evans wrote in The Third Reich at War: How the Nazis Led Germany from Conquest to Disaster :
Goebbels had initially estimated the total number of ethnic Germans killed at 5,800. It was not until February 1940 that, probably on Hitler's personal instructions, the estimate was arbitrarily increased to 58,000, later remembered in rough approximation by Melta Maschmann. The figure not only convinced most Germans that the invasion had been justified, but also fuelled the hatred and resentment felt by the ethnic German minority in Poland against their former masters.
Werd doesn't realise that his own sources actually contradict his claim.

When refuted, he resorted to:
The extract from jrbooksonline I quoted on page 40 did not mention the "NDVK". So I don't know why you're wandering around the site looking for things I did not bother to quote, and then try to pin that on me. In case you haven't figured out by now, my conspiracy theories about Nazis, Bankers, bloodlines and how the Nazis fit INTO that conspiracy and were not OPPOSED TO IT, logically means I don't agree with everything that is on jrbooksonline. Obvious, right? Or are you talking about this site mentioning the "NDVK"? Again, I am not interested in mistaken acronyms and never was.

The extract I did quote however mentioned the propaganda figure of 58,000. However I never bolded that. I was not interested in the real figure. What I DID BOLD was what was pertinent to me at the time. That the bodies of the victims of Bromberg could be dated to having been attacked BEFORE the war in September 1939.

In that 1940 book the Germans put out is that some of those corpses DO COME from Polish murders such as Jesuit Lake and Slonsk which happened AFTER Septemeber had already begun. But the 1940 book itself touches on more than just those two places. So it is possible that at least SOME of those murders DID occur before September.
https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 30#p133308
And if none of those corpses could be reliably dated to before September, then I would have to say Unconditioned Canuck is probably correct. And I would thus concede. However, I have to now cross check the English translations of the white and blue books to see if Jurgen Rieger is telling the truth. Although I would suspect those translations are watered down; maybe even modern German ones. I would have to get a trustworthy German speaker to investigate the contents of older German copies. You talk about evidence. Wouldn't unabridged German be the best?

And I also have to send an email to G. Duncan to check his sources. Although I assume he has most of them in order. Considering he is NOT a revisionist and documents GERMAN ATROCITIES as well. I see no reason why he would falter when it comes to Polish pre war atrocities. I suppose it's possible. Hopefully he answers my email.
https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 30#p133311

He also personally insulted me:

https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 10#p133289

How very nice of him.

I don't think anyone is going to take seriously a user that posts:
Whatever was going on between Poland and Germany, war was inevitable. The second world war was inevitable. Because an elite group of old Illuminati banking bloodlines wanted world war for their own certain reasons. Hitler was their puppet. As was Stalin. As was Churchill. As were many other key players. They answer to their masters.

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https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 70#p133230
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Re: RODOH user claims that the Poles massacred the Germans prior to WW2 in 1939

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:08 pm

Werd believes in some of the craziest {!#%@} you will ever see. The only person crazier is the nuke denier I found on line.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: RODOH user claims that the Poles massacred the Germans prior to WW2 in 1939

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:37 pm

I’ll see if I can track down his reading list that is designed to un-sheeple us.

Ah, success. Pay attention, sheeple. This is your last chance to un-sheeple yourself and break free of you Illuminati/Zionist/lizard people overlords.:

1. Bloodlines of the Illuminati by Fritz Springmeier
2. The Illuminati Formula to create a total undetectable mind control slave by Fritz Springmeier
3. The Committee of 300 by John Coleman
4. Hitler was a British Agent by Greg Hallett
5. Vatican Assassins by Eric Jon Phelps
6. The Murder of Yhitzak Rabin by Barry Chamish
7. Shabbtai Tzvi Labour Zionism and the holocaust by Barry Chamish
8. The Biggest Secret by David Icke (chapter 9 specifically)
9. Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler by Anthony Sutton
10. Secrets of the Federal Reserve by Eustace Mullins (who endorsed Eric Jon Phelps)
11. Murder by injection by Eustace Mullins
12. Papal Genealogy by G. Williams
13. Transformation of the Republic by C.T. Wilcox
14. Memoirs Illustating the History of Jacobinism by Abbe Barruel
15. Proofs of a Conspiracy by John Robison
16. Light on Masonry by David Bernard
17. Me and Lee by Judyth Baker
18. Circle of Intrigue by Texe Marrs
19. New World Order: Corruption in Canada by Robert O Driscoll
20. Secret Societies and Psychological Warfare by Michael A Hoffman II
21. Masonry Unmasked by John Salza
22. Secrets of the Freemasons by Michael Bradley
23. The Empire of "The City" by E.C. Knuth
24. The Brotherhood by Stephen Knight
25. The Secret Teachings of all Ages by Manly P Hall
26. Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike
27. The Search for the manchurian Candidate: The CIA and mind control by John Marks
28. Virtual Government: CIA Mind Control Operations in America by Alex Constantine
29. The Anglo American Establishment by Carrol Quigley
30. The Bilderberg Group by Daniel Estulin
31. To Eliminate the Opiate v1 and v2 by Marvin Antelman
32. None Dare Call it Consipracy by Gary Allen
33. Tranceformation of America by Cathy O Brien
34. Thanks for the Memories by Brice Taylor
35. Occult Theocracy by Lady Queensborough
36. Secret Societies and Subversive Movements by Nesta Webster
37. The Irish Origins of Civilization by Michael Tsarion
38. Controversy of Zion by Douglas Reed
Last edited by Jeffk 1970 on Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: RODOH user claims that the Poles massacred the Germans prior to WW2 in 1939

Post by landrew » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:00 pm

The Nazis believe that two wrongs make a right, even if you have to invent the first wrong.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: RODOH user claims that the Poles massacred the Germans prior to WW2 in 1939

Post by Aaron Richards » Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:49 am

Re-quoting Werd from RODOH:
The extract I did quote however mentioned the propaganda figure of 58,000. However I never bolded that. I was not interested in the real figure. What I DID BOLD was what was pertinent to me at the time. That the bodies of the victims of Bromberg could be dated to having been attacked BEFORE the war in September 1939.

In that 1940 book the Germans put out is that some of those corpses DO COME from Polish murders such as Jesuit Lake and Slonsk which happened AFTER Septemeber had already begun. But the 1940 book itself touches on more than just those two places. So it is possible that at least SOME of those murders DID occur before September.

If he means these atrocity photos (warning, graphic images!): archive.is/MitYS

...they are basically a compilation of individual murders (showing a few dozen corpses at best?) that somehow magically add up to, and form the physical and forensic evidence of, the revisionists' 58,000 number. This is the stuff that got regurgitated in Dennis Wise's 2013 "The Greatest Story Never Told", and convinced thousands of people that Hitler's invasion of Poland was justified, because Dennis the Liar was callous enough to claim Bromberg happened BEFORE September 1st. A stupid mistake that won't work even in a room full of amateur history buffs, but just enough to work on laypeople.

But returning to the album, even if we leave the number aside and just look at the photos, where's the evidence:

- they're all Volksdeutsche murdered by Poles, rather than Poles murdered by Germans?
- they were all murdered before September 1st, 1939?

and most importantly:

- that they can be linked together as purposely done hate-crimes, acts of genocide with the intent of killing people because of their ethnicity, rather than the victims of random robberies?

Remember every country has murders, all you need to do is visit the coroner's office and grab some photographic evidence and create an album based on that compilation.

Even individual murders of Volksdeutsche, collected into an album, can be presented as evidence of genocide which an unwitting person can believe because he sees all of it in one booklet.
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Re: RODOH user claims that the Poles massacred the Germans prior to WW2 in 1939

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:53 am

>> Remember every country has murders

The street I live on has murders. :(
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Re: RODOH user claims that the Poles massacred the Germans prior to WW2 in 1939

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:02 am

Aaron Richards wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:49 am
Re-quoting Werd from RODOH:
The extract I did quote however mentioned the propaganda figure of 58,000. However I never bolded that. I was not interested in the real figure. What I DID BOLD was what was pertinent to me at the time. That the bodies of the victims of Bromberg could be dated to having been attacked BEFORE the war in September 1939.

In that 1940 book the Germans put out is that some of those corpses DO COME from Polish murders such as Jesuit Lake and Slonsk which happened AFTER Septemeber had already begun. But the 1940 book itself touches on more than just those two places. So it is possible that at least SOME of those murders DID occur before September.

If he means these atrocity photos (warning, graphic images!): archive.is/MitYS

...they are basically a compilation of individual murders (showing a few dozen corpses at best?) that somehow magically add up to, and form the physical and forensic evidence of, the revisionists' 58,000 number. This is the stuff that got regurgitated in Dennis Wise's 2013 "The Greatest Story Never Told", and convinced thousands of people that Hitler's invasion of Poland was justified, because Dennis the Liar was callous enough to claim Bromberg happened BEFORE September 1st. A stupid mistake that won't work even in a room full of amateur history buffs, but just enough to work on laypeople.

But returning to the album, even if we leave the number aside and just look at the photos, where's the evidence:

- they're all Volksdeutsche murdered by Poles, rather than Poles murdered by Germans?
- they were all murdered before September 1st, 1939?

and most importantly:

- that they can be linked together as purposely done hate-crimes, acts of genocide with the intent of killing people because of their ethnicity, rather than the victims of random robberies?

Remember every country has murders, all you need to do is visit the coroner's office and grab some photographic evidence and create an album based on that compilation.

Even individual murders of Volksdeutsche, collected into an album, can be presented as evidence of genocide which an unwitting person can believe because he sees all of it in one booklet.

Dennis Wise is a {!#%@} but that's neither here nor there. "The Greatest Story Never Told" is a nauseating blend of lies and distortions that I couldn't get through and I've watched the flying Rizoli's make an ass of themselves on their videos.

But this business with alleged Polish atrocities is something I've encountered many times. I'm sure in whatever hell he's roasting in Goebbels appreciates the fact that stupid people still buy into his propaganda. Goebbels started pumping this stuff out in the Spring of 1939 in order to turn German public opinion against the Poles.

I've never come across anything to indicate there were widespread atrocities committed against ethnic Germans during the 1930's. In an ironic twist Weimar complained more about the treatment of ethnic Germans than Nazi Germany did.

On that note I've just gotten home from a family vacation so I'm beat. Catch up later.....
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: RODOH user claims that the Poles massacred the Germans prior to WW2 in 1939

Post by Balmoral95 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:22 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:37 pm
I’ll see if I can track down his reading list that is designed to un-sheeple us.

Ah, success. Pay attention, sheeple. This is your last chance to un-sheeple yourself and break free of you Illuminati/Zionist/lizard people overlords.:

1. Bloodlines of the Illuminati by Fritz Springmeier
2. The Illuminati Formula to create a total undetectable mind control slave by Fritz Springmeier
3. The Committee of 300 by John Coleman
4. Hitler was a British Agent by Greg Hallett
5. Vatican Assassins by Eric Jon Phelps
6. The Murder of Yhitzak Rabin by Barry Chamish
7. Shabbtai Tzvi Labour Zionism and the holocaust by Barry Chamish
8. The Biggest Secret by David Icke (chapter 9 specifically)
9. Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler by Anthony Sutton
10. Secrets of the Federal Reserve by Eustace Mullins (who endorsed Eric Jon Phelps)
11. Murder by injection by Eustace Mullins
12. Papal Genealogy by G. Williams
13. Transformation of the Republic by C.T. Wilcox
14. Memoirs Illustating the History of Jacobinism by Abbe Barruel
15. Proofs of a Conspiracy by John Robison
16. Light on Masonry by David Bernard
17. Me and Lee by Judyth Baker
18. Circle of Intrigue by Texe Marrs
19. New World Order: Corruption in Canada by Robert O Driscoll
20. Secret Societies and Psychological Warfare by Michael A Hoffman II
21. Masonry Unmasked by John Salza
22. Secrets of the Freemasons by Michael Bradley
23. The Empire of "The City" by E.C. Knuth
24. The Brotherhood by Stephen Knight
25. The Secret Teachings of all Ages by Manly P Hall
26. Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike
27. The Search for the manchurian Candidate: The CIA and mind control by John Marks
28. Virtual Government: CIA Mind Control Operations in America by Alex Constantine
29. The Anglo American Establishment by Carrol Quigley
30. The Bilderberg Group by Daniel Estulin
31. To Eliminate the Opiate v1 and v2 by Marvin Antelman
32. None Dare Call it Consipracy by Gary Allen
33. Tranceformation of America by Cathy O Brien
34. Thanks for the Memories by Brice Taylor
35. Occult Theocracy by Lady Queensborough
36. Secret Societies and Subversive Movements by Nesta Webster
37. The Irish Origins of Civilization by Michael Tsarion
38. Controversy of Zion by Douglas Reed
Mein Gott...

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Re: RODOH user claims that the Poles massacred the Germans prior to WW2 in 1939

Post by Balmoral95 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:06 am

He's missed some massive ones... Monty can help with that... wait, book thing is a problem, so maybe not.

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Re: RODOH user claims that the Poles massacred the Germans prior to WW2 in 1939

Post by Aaron Richards » Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:54 am

I miss the days of Monstrous.
Please subscribe to my YouTube channel "Holocaust Documents", where I fight back the sea of antisemitism & conspiracy theories that has taken over its comment section: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTBlSX ... Un5jIhWm7g
I compile rebuttals to popular holocaust denier canards here: https://siraaronrichards.imgur.com

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Re: RODOH user claims that the Poles massacred the Germans prior to WW2 in 1939

Post by Goody67 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:25 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:02 am
But this business with alleged Polish atrocities is something I've encountered many times. I'm sure in whatever hell he's roasting in Goebbels appreciates the fact that stupid people still buy into his propaganda. Goebbels started pumping this stuff out in the Spring of 1939 in order to turn German public opinion against the Poles.
Even Goebbels never claimed that the Poles were massacring the German minority in Poland. He stirred up hatred by claiming that the Poles were mistreating the ethnic Germans but there is no evidence to support the wild claims.

The British also investigated the Nazis' claims about the treatment of the German minority in Poland and concluded:
TREATMENT OF GERMAN MINORITY IN POLAND.
No. 52.
Sir H. Kennard to Viscount Halifax.
(Telegraphic.) Warsaw, August 24, 1939.

WHILE I am of course not in a position to check all the allegations made by the German press of minority persecutions here, I am satisfied from enquiries I have made that the campaign is a gross distortion and exaggeration of the facts.

2. Accusations of beating with chains, throwing on barbed wire, being forced to shout insults against Herr Hitler in chorus, &c., are merely silly, but many individual cases specified have been disproved.

3. M. Karletan, for instance, arrested in connexion with murder of Polish policeman on 15th August, was alleged by German press to have been beaten to death and his wife and children thrown out of the window. Manchester Guardian correspondent tells me that he visited him in prison on Sunday and found him in good health. He had not been beaten or physically injured at all. Story about wife and child was equally devoid of any foundation whatever.

4. It is true that many of the German minority have left Poland illegally, but I hear both from the Acting British Consul at Katowice and from British Vice-Consul at Lodz that the Germans themselves have told many to leave. There was an initial exodus last May. Many subsequently asked to come back, but the Poles were not anxious to have them, as they had no doubt been trained in propaganda, sabotage and espionage activities, such as Jungdeutsche Partei in Katowice have been conducting. In Lodz area some of those who left recently raised all the money and credit they could before leaving, and the Voivode told Vice-Consul on 20th August that from evidence available he was satisfied that German Consulate had transferred these funds to Germany and was no doubt privy to their departure. Many of those who left, especially from Lodz, are of the intelligentsia, and they are said to include Herr Witz, leader of Volksbund. British Vice-Consul at Lodz says many German organisations have been closed there, but they were notoriously conducting Nazi propaganda, and Polish authorities could not ignore it altogether. I think, however, many Germans have lost their jobs, especially in factories of military or semi-military importance, and some 2,000 workmen have left Tomaszow.

5. Many of those who left their homes undoubtedly did so because they wished to be on German side of the front in event of war, and in general there is by common consent less individual friction with members of the minority now than last May.

6. Ministry for Foreign Affairs tell me that figure of 76,000 refugees quoted in German press is a gross exaggeration. I should say 17,000 was the absolute maximum. Gazeta Polska correspondent in Berlin has asked to be shown refugee camps of the 76,000 and apparently received no answer.

7. In Silesia the frontier is not fully open, but a special frontier card system is in force and considerable daily traffic is possible. The German authorities having closed frontier in Rybnik area where Poles cross to Poland, Polish authorities closed it elsewhere where Germans cross into Germany. In view of revelations of activities of Jungdeutsche Partei, the Polish authorities feel greater control of frontier traffic is in any case necessary.

8. Polish press has recently published many complaints of wholesale removal of Poles from frontier districts in Silesia and East Prussia to the interior of Germany, smashing of property, especially in Allenstein district, closing of all Polish libraries in Silesia and other forms of persecution. According to semi-official Gazeta Polska, from April to June there were recorded 976 acts of violence against the minority, and since then the number of cases is stated to have increased beyond all bounds. For the last two days, however, no further information has been published, as M. Beck has damped the press down.
9. In general, responsible organs of the Polish press have not published violent tirades, still less claimed German territory for Poland, and A.B.C., recently quoted in Germany, is a violent Opposition newspaper with little reputation and less influence.

No. 53.
Sir H. Kennard to Viscount Halifax.
(Telegraphic.) Warsaw, August 26, 1939.
SERIES of incidents again occurred yesterday on German frontier.

2. Polish patrol met party Germans 1 kilometre from East Prussian frontier near Pelta. Germans opened fire. Polish patrol replied, killing leader, whose body is being returned.

3. German bands also crossed Silesian frontier near Szczyglo, twice near Rybnik and twice elsewhere, firing shots and attacking blockhouses and customs posts with machine guns and hand grenades. Poles have protested vigorously to Berlin.

4. Gazeta Polska, in inspired leader to-day, says these are more than incidents. They are clearly prepared acts of aggression of para-military disciplined detachments supplied with regular army's arms, and in one case it was a regular army detachment. Attacks more or less continuous.

5. These incidents did not cause Poland to forsake calm and strong attitude of defence. Facts spoke for themselves and acts of aggression came from German side. This was best answer to ravings of German press.

6. Ministry for Foreign Affairs state uniformed German detachment has since shot Pole across frontier and wounded another.

No. 54.
Sir H. Kennard to Viscount Halifax.
(Telegraphic.) Warsaw, August 26, 1939.

MINISTRY for Foreign Affairs categorically deny story recounted by Herr Hitler to French Ambassador that twenty-four Germans were recently killed at Lodz and eight at Bielsko. Story is without any foundation whatever.
No. 55.
Sir H. Kennard to Viscount Halifax.
(Telegraphic.) Warsaw, August 27, 1939.

So far as I can judge, German allegations of mass ill-treatment of German minority by Polish authorities are gross exaggerations, if not complete falsifications.

2. There is no sign of any loss of control of situation by Polish civil authorities. Warsaw (and so far as I can ascertain the rest of Poland) is still completely calm.

3. Such allegations are reminiscent of Nazi propaganda methods regarding Czecho-Slovakia last year.

4. In any case it is purely and simply deliberate German provocation in accordance with fixed policy that has since March exacerbated feeling between the two nationalities. I suppose this has been done with object of (a) creating war spirit in Germany, (b) impressing public opinion abroad, (c) provoking either defeatism or apparent aggression in Poland.

5. It has signally failed to achieve either of the two latter objects.

6. It is noteworthy that Danzig was hardly mentioned by Herr Hitler.

7. German treatment of Czech Jews and Polish minority is apparently negligible factor compared with alleged sufferings of Germans in Poland, where, be it noted, they do not amount to more than 10 per cent. of population in any commune.

8. In face of these facts, it can hardly be doubted that, if Herr Hitler decides on war, it is for the sole purpose of destroying Polish independence.

9. I shall lose no opportunity of impressing on Minister for Foreign Affairs necessity of doing everything possible to prove that Herr Hitler's allegations regarding German minority are false.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/wwii/blbk55.asp

The Bromberg massacre also needs to be put into context, Ian Kershaw wrote in Hitler 1936-1945: Nemesis:
There was no shortage of eager helpers among the ethnic Germans in the former Polish territories. The explosion of violence recalled, in hugely magnified fashion, the wild and barbarous treatment of 'enemies of the state' in Germany in spring 1933. But now, after six years of cumulative onslaught on every tenet of human and civilized behaviour, and persistent indoctrination with the chauvinistic hatred, the penned-in aggression could be let loose externally on a downtrodden and despised enemy

There had been undoubted discrimination against the German minority – around 3 per cent of the total population – in pre-war Poland, mounting sharply during the summer crisis of 1939. The Germans had also been economically disadvantaged. The incorporation of Austria and the Sudeten-land had then raised expectations among the Germans in Poland of their own 'return to the Reich'. And, in a climate of mounting ethnic conflict, Goebbels's propaganda, grossly exaggerating or simply fabricating incidents of sporadic violence against the German minority (while of course keeping quiet about worse outrages on the German side), contributed immensely to inciting venomous antagonism towards the Poles.

For their part, immediately following the German invasion the Poles, reacting to real or alleged cases of sabotage by the German minority – taken to be a 'fifth column' – arrested some 10-15,000 ethnic Germans (1-2 percent of the German minority) and force-marched them eastwards. Though the brutality accompanying the marches was later hugely magnified for propaganda purposes, the prisoners were indeed often beaten, or otherwise maltreated, and subjected to violence by the local population as they passed through Polish towns and villages. In some cases, those unfit to walk any further were shot.

Outrages against the minority German population occurred in numerous places. Most notoriously in Bromberg (Bydgoszcz), attacks on Germans on 3 September had the character of a local pogrom. Precisely how many died at Bromberg has never been satisfactorily established. For German propaganda, the attacks on ethnic Germans were exploited as an apparent justification for a policy of 'ethnic cleansing' that had surpassed in its first days anything that could be regarded as retaliation. The Germans claimed in November 1939 5,400 had been killed in the 'September Murders' (including what they dubbed the 'Bromberg Bloody Sunday'). Then, in February 1940, on Hitler's own instructions (it was later claimed) this was simply multiplied by around ten-fold and a figure of 58,000 German dead invented. The most reliable estimates put the total number of ethnic Germans killed in outrages, forced marches, bombing and shelling at around 4,000. Terrible though these atrocities were, they were more or less spontaneous outbursts of hatred that took place in the context of panic and fear following the German invasion. They did not remotely compare with, let alone provide any justification for, the calculated savagery of the treatment meted out by the German masters, directed at wiping out anything other than a slave existence for the Polish people.
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Re: RODOH user claims that the Poles massacred the Germans prior to WW2 in 1939

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:28 pm

For context, it has to be recalled that in the interwar period, in contrast to the present, Poland was multiethnic, with over 30% of its population consisting of minorities. As Polish ethnic-nationalism intensified during the 1930s, Poland's minority policy became increasingly hostile to the country's national minorities - including Belorussians, Ukrainians, and Jews. Ukrainians were the largest minority group, followed by Jews (then Belorussians); ethnic Germans were something like 2% or so. Religion and language were among the key markers of ethnic difference. Looking at Poland mainly through the lens of relations with Germans is, well, a stupid Nazi trick, to borrow a phrase.

The national camp in Poland stereotyped minorities as uniformly disloyal, foreign entities lodged in the Polish national body and to be either assimilated (and Polonized) or expelled from Poland. In fact, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, and Belorussians within Poland had national aspirations of their own during the interwar period; Polish Jews did not aim to establish a national state at the expense of the Polish state. The 1919 minorities treaty had required Poland give full civil, political, and religious rights to minority populations; the Polish government in 1934 abrogated this treaty, even before Pilsudski's death.

By the time of the war, IMO Poland's minorities situation was problematic. But . . .

The Third Reich as defender of minority rights? Ha. Look at the situation of the Jews in Poland after the invasion - or the Third Reich's relationship with Ukrainians and their aspirations for statehood. Or with Lithuanians during the same period.
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Re: RODOH user claims that the Poles massacred the Germans prior to WW2 in 1939

Post by Balsamo » Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:01 pm

Great Post Statmec!

Nevertheless, i have to disagree when you say:
Looking at Poland mainly through the lens of relations with Germans is, well, a stupid Nazi trick, to borrow a phrase.
Within the topic of this thread, it is still the important issue.
According to pre WW1 census, the percentage of ethnic German in the three provinces that are at stake, that is Pomerania (West-Prussia), the Province of Posen and of course Silesia, was much higher:
- 421.000 in West-Prussia (43%), 686.000 in Posen (35.2%), 306.000 in High-Silesia.

Those numbers would even increase after this census.

The minority crisis will change the picture after the German defeat. Pressures from the new Polish government, pressures that included some use of violence, will lead to a massive emigration of German westward, especially in West-Prussia and Posen, while a plebicit originally kept Silesia within Germany.

By 1921, there were still 1.100.000 German in Poland, 2/3 of them living in those three provinces. Still closer to 4% of the total population of new Poland than the 2%. Within those 3 provinces the Germans represented still something like 20% of the population.

The 2% (2.3%) is reached in the census of 1931...with still around 740.000 Germans

By extrapolation, one can evaluate at more than 1.000.000 Germans who left Poland during 1918 and 1931, or about 60%... It can be doubted that such a results was only due to peaceful means by the Poles.

But the whole story was the result of a tense relation that was 1000 years old, and much more complex than its seems. For example, region like Silesia and the South west of actual Poland was part of the Habsburg empire since 1528 when the family was elected king of the kingdom of Bohemia. Silesia was then lost to Prussia in the 18th century, before the kingdom of Poland disappeared itself.
Pomerania was part of the Holy German Empire, as a independent duchy. It later became shared between the state of Brandenbourg and Sweden, then integrated to the kingdom of Prussia in the early 18th century.

Posen, on the other hand, was the most recent acquisition by the kingdom of Prussia, and was subject to a fierce policy of "Germanization", up to the famous "Kulturkampf" led by Bismark.

All this to say that the case of Poland is very similar to comparable situation in the Balkan. Territories that passed all of a sudden from a feodal and imperial system to modern nationalism, with basically the same patterns of political violence targeting civilians, not only from the Poles of course, small details often left aside by our fellow deniers.
The German minorities had more than its part of violence toward the Poles, especially after 1918.

The highest level of violence was reached between 1919 and 1921, at a time when the newly formed Polish State was struggling with its survival fighting the Soviets in the East as well as Freikorps in the West. Since it can be said that the Polish people is one of those few who fought for its survival since...well almost forever, it could only have consequences on their "Nationalist" policy, which was indeed brutal at this time.
a Violence aggravated by once again the ignorance or the "don't give a {!#%@}" attitude of the Great Powers who had their own agenda (like weakening Germany for France with the surrender of the industrial areas of Silesia to Poland, despite the plebicit to stay German), and included in the newly formed Poland territories which legitimacy as Polish territories was far from obvious, and indeed highly contested.

Which makes me think that it is about time that i finish my big thread about Bloxham as it would clarify a lot of things. If my computer let me finish it without deleting it (i already had to start it over three times and it becomes boring).

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Re: RODOH user claims that the Poles massacred the Germans prior to WW2 in 1939

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:14 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:01 pm
Great Post Statmec!

Nevertheless, i have to disagree when you say:
Looking at Poland mainly through the lens of relations with Germans is, well, a stupid Nazi trick, to borrow a phrase.
Within the topic of this thread, it is still the important issue.
I will disagree back, sort of. LOL. I think that to understand the overall situation in Poland at this time - and the broader context for this discussion, one needs to use a wider angle lens. Comparisons can help clarify issues, and realizing that Polish nationalism wasn't focused only on Germans is an important aspect of the situation.

Also, I didn't mean to belittle the German issue by mentioning the population %'s. In fact, I agree with the rest of your post, and find it very helpful here, all except what will be coming on Bloxham, of course. :)
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Re: RODOH user claims that the Poles massacred the Germans prior to WW2 in 1939

Post by Balsamo » Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:42 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:14 pm
Balsamo wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:01 pm
Great Post Statmec!

Nevertheless, i have to disagree when you say:
Looking at Poland mainly through the lens of relations with Germans is, well, a stupid Nazi trick, to borrow a phrase.
Within the topic of this thread, it is still the important issue.
I will disagree back, sort of. LOL. I think that to understand the overall situation in Poland at this time - and the broader context for this discussion, one needs to use a wider angle lens. Comparisons can help clarify issues, and realizing that Polish nationalism wasn't focused only on Germans is an important aspect of the situation.

Also, I didn't mean to belittle the German issue by mentioning the population %'s. In fact, I agree with the rest of your post, and find it very helpful here, all except what will be coming on Bloxham, of course. :)
You are right about the wider angle, of course...I was only referring to the specific topic of the thread which is about the massacres between Poles and Germans.
Speaking of wider angle lens, that is what Bloxham is all about... :lol: