What motivated the German resistance?

Discussions
User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4538
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Dwayne de Schwamp
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

What motivated the German resistance?

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:44 pm

This thread is an offshoot from the "1933 boycott" thread, just to keep that thread focused. As noted in that thread, I am still a tyro in Holocaust Studies and am reading Goldhagen's book at the moment. As most of you here know, he is vehemently anti-German and refuses to credit any resistance as being based on a revulsion at eliminationist antisemitism. In particular, he ascribes the criticism of the boycott to concern for Germany's international reputation. Similarly, he gives all kinds of explanations for the negative reactions to Kristallnacht, but minimizes revulsion at antisemitism as one of them.

He also won't accept statements by Germans that are neutral or defensive on the Jews as reflective of anything like a widespread opinion. That is why I posed the question as I did. Goldhagen says that those who resisted the Nazis did so for other reasons, not to defend the Jews. I'm just wondering what those other reasons were, and whether any of them ever wrote or claimed that they resisted because they wanted to defend the Jews.

As I posted on the other thread, I'm most familiar with what happened to mathematicians after 1933, since my advisor was one of the refugees. Here, for what it is worth, is some information on two of the most prominent German mathematicians of the early twentieth century. First, Felix Klein, who was safely dead by 1926, and who, after exhaustive genealogical research, the Nazis decided to make into the poster boy for German mathematics (he was a very good mathematician, but not a transcendent genius):
Felix Klein wrote:The majority of the German mathematicians we have discussed up to now were Protestants. Jacobi represented the first of the Jewish mathematicians, whose number increased steadily from then on. In contrast, Weierstrass came from a Catholic background.
Second, from the MacTutor website entry on David Hilbert, who was already retired when the Nazis took over. He and Klein both supported Emmy Noether in her struggles to overcome the prejudice against women. Klein said it was largely through her that he learned what he knew about algebraic geometry, and Hilbert famously said to his colleagues: "The Faculty Senate is not a locker room. Why shouldn't this Jewess go there?" (Another German mathematician, Hermann Weyl---much more profound than Klein, in my opinion---left in 1933 because his wife was Jewish. When Emmy Noether died in 1935, he wrote that he had earnestly tried to get her a better position because "I was ashamed to occupy a higher position than this woman, who I knew was my superior in many respects.")
MacTutor wrote: In 1930 Hilbert retired but only a few years later, in 1933, life in Göttingen changed completely when the Nazis came to power and Jewish lecturers were dismissed. By the autumn of 1933 most had left or were dismissed. Hilbert, although retired, had still been giving a few lectures. In the winter semester of 1933-34 he gave one lecture a week on the foundations of geometry. After he finished giving this course he never set foot in the Institute again. In early 1942 he fell and broke his arm while walking in Göttingen. This made him totally inactive and this seems to have been a major factor in his death a year after the accident.
“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.”

― Frédéric Bastiat (1801–1850), French economist

nickterry
Regular Poster
Posts: 998
Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:48 pm
Location: Bristol

Re: What motivated the German resistance?

Post by nickterry » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:36 pm

Goldhagen conflates two things here; organised/formal resistance and popular attitudes to news of persecution/mass murder. Other than the White Rose leaflet campaign, there are really no formal acts of resistance against the regime that were motivated by revulsion against antisemitism. Rescue of Jews, of course, was motivated by exactly that; the Berlin Catholic diocese circle knew for example about Rumbula by early 1942.

The literature on the 20 July 1944 plotters, especially works by Peter Hoffmann, Hans Mommsen and Joachim Fest, explicitly address the knowledge of the Holocaust and/or attitudes of resistance plotters to Jews. They all take a fairly negative verdict, although it's known that von Stauffenberg and others knew of the Holocaust and mentioned this in various contexts.

Since Goldhagen published 22 years ago, we have much more evidence of revulsion at the Holocaust in particular, but generalising from the surviving diaries etc to concoct an opinion poll figure is extremely difficult.

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1913
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: What motivated the German resistance?

Post by Balsamo » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:16 pm

Goldhagen's first book should be mandatory to every first year students as it illustrates close to perfection everything a historian should NOT be.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23264
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: What motivated the German resistance?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:50 pm

The near absence of organized German opposition to the Nazis motivated by resistance of anti-Semitism doesn't equate to the widespread sharing of Goldhagen's eliminationist anti-Semitism. There are many reasons people didn't resist. The main thrusts of the organized opposition seem to me to have been rooted in conduct of the war and matters like that. But there was virtually no organized opposition to the Nazis on the basis of the regime's persecution of Sinti and Roma, gay Germans, political opponents, asocials, trade unionists, and others defined as outside the national community, either - let alone Nazi visions of conquest and rule in the East and across Europe.

The closest I can think of came from Wurm and especially Galen, regarding the so-called euthanasia murders - reflecting widespread unease and even revulsion about those murders - but is a protest about a single action resistance to the Nazi regime? Most of those who recoiled at the "euthanasia" accommodated to the Third Reich in many other ways. One could also think of those who during the war assisted the "submarines," the small number of Jews who managed to live and maintain underground through to the war's end, mostly IIRC in Berlin. One way that popular reactions to the murder of the Jews was expressed was in a critical, fearful expectation of Allied revenge for what "we"/"they" did, expressed in diaries. Also, short of the mass murder, there is a lot of basis to think that the 1933 boycott, Kristallnacht, SA anti-Jewish violence, and the yellow star requirement were viewed negatively, often with a sense of shame, by many Germans.

How people processed Nazi rule, negotiated its new requirements, and adjusted their everyday activity, attitudes, and behavior to different aspects of the Third Reich raise really interesting questions. Germans had to deal with repression and terror (the criminalization of certain groups of people), on the one hand, and incentives for belonging (thinking here of Kuehne's book and others), on the other. Both the incentives and disincentives discouraged resistance even on the part of those who deeply rejected the Nazis. I think there is robust literature showing that a wide gap opened between those singled out as enemies, outsiders, or dangers to the community and most Germans - but that gap shouldn't be confused with virulent, eliminationist anti-Semitism. Nor should widespread support for Nazi rule.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4538
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Dwayne de Schwamp
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: What motivated the German resistance?

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:42 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:50 pm
The near absence of organized German opposition to the Nazis motivated by resistance of anti-Semitism doesn't equate to the widespread sharing of Goldhagen's eliminationist anti-Semitism. There are many reasons people didn't resist. The main thrusts of the organized opposition seem to me to have been rooted in conduct of the war and matters like that. But there was virtually no organized opposition to the Nazis on the basis of the regime's persecution of Sinti and Roma, gay Germans, political opponents, asocials, trade unionists, and others defined as outside the national community, either - let alone Nazi visions of conquest and rule in the East and across Europe.

The closest I can think of came from Wurm and especially Galen, regarding the so-called euthanasia murders - reflecting widespread unease and even revulsion about those murders - but is a protest about a single action resistance to the Nazi regime? Most of those who recoiled at the "euthanasia" accommodated to the Third Reich in many other ways. One could also think of those who during the war assisted the "submarines," the small number of Jews who managed to live and maintain underground through to the war's end, mostly IIRC in Berlin. One way that popular reactions to the murder of the Jews was expressed was in a critical, fearful expectation of Allied revenge for what "we"/"they" did, expressed in diaries. Also, short of the mass murder, there is a lot of basis to think that the 1933 boycott, Kristallnacht, SA anti-Jewish violence, and the yellow star requirement were viewed negatively, often with a sense of shame, by many Germans.

How people processed Nazi rule, negotiated its new requirements, and adjusted their everyday activity, attitudes, and behavior to different aspects of the Third Reich raise really interesting questions. Germans had to deal with repression and terror (the criminalization of certain groups of people), on the one hand, and incentives for belonging (thinking here of Kuehne's book and others), on the other. Both the incentives and disincentives discouraged resistance even on the part of those who deeply rejected the Nazis. I think there is robust literature showing that a wide gap opened between those singled out as enemies, outsiders, or dangers to the community and most Germans - but that gap shouldn't be confused with virulent, eliminationist anti-Semitism. Nor should widespread support for Nazi rule.
Thanks. The persecution of the Roma seems to be left out of Goldhagen's book, at least as far as I've read. I'll read further.

The persecution of gays is of interest, because surely there were homosexuals among the Nazi leadership.
“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.”

― Frédéric Bastiat (1801–1850), French economist

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4538
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Dwayne de Schwamp
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: What motivated the German resistance?

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:54 pm

nickterry wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:36 pm
Goldhagen conflates two things here; organised/formal resistance and popular attitudes to news of persecution/mass murder. Other than the White Rose leaflet campaign, there are really no formal acts of resistance against the regime that were motivated by revulsion against antisemitism. Rescue of Jews, of course, was motivated by exactly that; the Berlin Catholic diocese circle knew for example about Rumbula by early 1942.

The literature on the 20 July 1944 plotters, especially works by Peter Hoffmann, Hans Mommsen and Joachim Fest, explicitly address the knowledge of the Holocaust and/or attitudes of resistance plotters to Jews. They all take a fairly negative verdict, although it's known that von Stauffenberg and others knew of the Holocaust and mentioned this in various contexts.

Since Goldhagen published 22 years ago, we have much more evidence of revulsion at the Holocaust in particular, but generalising from the surviving diaries etc to concoct an opinion poll figure is extremely difficult.
You guys are saving me a lot of time hunting around through sources. I'm grateful to all of you for the information. Perhaps I should have finished Goldhagen's book before posting; now I'll read it with much more wariness. Oh well....

I am particularly interested in the transition Goldhagen sees from religiously-based antisemitism, of the sort one finds in Martin Luther, and antisemitism conjoined to racial theories. As Goldhagen says, it was (theoretically) possible to escape from the first through conversion, but the second was aimed at an "indelible stain" on the character of Jews. No escape was possible. This distinction has been seized on by the Catholic Church in its "apology" to the Jews for all the centuries of Christian antisemitism. The argument goes that the hierarchy never taught that Jews were irredeemable, and therefore the Nazi-style antisemitism couldn't have had any roots in Christian tradition. I keep wondering how that is supposed to work: Both swords and guns are made of steel. So, one can argue that the people who supplied the steel for swords have nothing in common with the people who supply steel for guns? Doesn't make sense to me.
“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.”

― Frédéric Bastiat (1801–1850), French economist

nickterry
Regular Poster
Posts: 998
Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:48 pm
Location: Bristol

Re: What motivated the German resistance?

Post by nickterry » Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:04 pm

LOL well historians now emphasise continuities with religious antisemitism, see Alon Confino's work in A World Without Jews, at the level of content. The 'racial' antisemites still attacked synagogues by the hundreds during Kristallnacht.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23264
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: What motivated the German resistance?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:22 pm

Another must-read book, Upton, is Confino's A World Without Jews, for the Nazi side of the equation.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1913
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: What motivated the German resistance?

Post by Balsamo » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:38 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:42 pm
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:50 pm
The near absence of organized German opposition to the Nazis motivated by resistance of anti-Semitism doesn't equate to the widespread sharing of Goldhagen's eliminationist anti-Semitism. There are many reasons people didn't resist. The main thrusts of the organized opposition seem to me to have been rooted in conduct of the war and matters like that. But there was virtually no organized opposition to the Nazis on the basis of the regime's persecution of Sinti and Roma, gay Germans, political opponents, asocials, trade unionists, and others defined as outside the national community, either - let alone Nazi visions of conquest and rule in the East and across Europe.

The closest I can think of came from Wurm and especially Galen, regarding the so-called euthanasia murders - reflecting widespread unease and even revulsion about those murders - but is a protest about a single action resistance to the Nazi regime? Most of those who recoiled at the "euthanasia" accommodated to the Third Reich in many other ways. One could also think of those who during the war assisted the "submarines," the small number of Jews who managed to live and maintain underground through to the war's end, mostly IIRC in Berlin. One way that popular reactions to the murder of the Jews was expressed was in a critical, fearful expectation of Allied revenge for what "we"/"they" did, expressed in diaries. Also, short of the mass murder, there is a lot of basis to think that the 1933 boycott, Kristallnacht, SA anti-Jewish violence, and the yellow star requirement were viewed negatively, often with a sense of shame, by many Germans.

How people processed Nazi rule, negotiated its new requirements, and adjusted their everyday activity, attitudes, and behavior to different aspects of the Third Reich raise really interesting questions. Germans had to deal with repression and terror (the criminalization of certain groups of people), on the one hand, and incentives for belonging (thinking here of Kuehne's book and others), on the other. Both the incentives and disincentives discouraged resistance even on the part of those who deeply rejected the Nazis. I think there is robust literature showing that a wide gap opened between those singled out as enemies, outsiders, or dangers to the community and most Germans - but that gap shouldn't be confused with virulent, eliminationist anti-Semitism. Nor should widespread support for Nazi rule.
Thanks. The persecution of the Roma seems to be left out of Goldhagen's book, at least as far as I've read. I'll read further.

The persecution of gays is of interest, because surely there were homosexuals among the Nazi leadership.
The persecution of gays is, in my opinion, one of those attempts to enlarged the Holocaust to a point of ridicule, within a clear "political or societal" agenda of this gay community. (Oups i am being a "revisionist here since this inclusion has been officially recognized by the EU !!)

First it is important to remind that there was a prohibition of homosexuality since the creation of the German Empire in 1871, punishing of prison sexual relations between men.

Such laws were widepsread across Europe, including Great Britain, Sweden, etc. One of the exception i can think of was France, even under Vichy.

To my knowledge, there had never been any planned operation to kind of "round-up" homosexual communities whatsoever, and no homosexuals have ever been sent to a gas chamber or even been shot for just being one.

What the Nazi Regime did was indeed to increase the legal penalties for "homosexual crimes"...This legislation could be used to get rid of opponents, or as personal vendettas (denunciations), and of course, people could get arrested when caught by the police. Of course, because the KZ system more and more replaced the old penitentiary system, so a portion of those sentenced for their homosexuality were indeed sent to KZ - yes with the pink triangle - where life got tougher especially after 1943, or to be more precise, where life expectancy shrank to such low level that indeed many of them died while "serving their times", just like other "criminals". Nevertheless most were still sent to regular prisons.

But even after 1945, and for a long time, one could still face prosecution and jail time for being caught in an homosexual act!
In Sweden for a very long time, a convicted homosexual had basically the choice between psychiatric treatment in an Asylum, jail or castration!
The article in the Penal code was only officially abolished in the 1990's, IRCC, because actually it was no longer even applied.

A typical example of what i call "Holocaust abuse".

I have the same opinion regarding the "Jehovah witnesses" by the way...

NOT that i support in anyway any of such laws, of course.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23264
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: What motivated the German resistance?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:49 pm

I don't really see how the question of what you call "Holocaust abuse" comes up in this discussion. I think that the intensification of persecution of gay men and the sending of Jehovah's Witnesses to KLs along with efforts to force them to recant their beliefs are legitimately considered in this context, which concerns the exclusion of certain groups from the Nazi concept of the national community. That doesn't equate to an attempt to bring these groups into the "Holocaust," of course.

Nor does pointing out these features of National Socialism imply that anti-gay prejudice and discrimination were solely owned by the Nazis, any more than pointing out racial persecution and segregation during the Third Reich implies that no other countries had race-based laws, discrimination, or segregation. Ditto political repression, which escalated during the Third Reich. The same point can be made about "Gypsies" as well as "asocials"; that prejudices and fears about these groups have been widespread doesn't really tell us about how they figured in Nazi demonology and fared in the Third Reich, including how they were popularly viewed and how wide was a German's universe of obligation likely to extend. Saying this is not meant to liken the experiences of these groups to the experiences of the Jews, Soviet POWs, or Sinti and Roma, for example, but simply to describe how the Nazis differentiated among different groups of people, how the isolation and persecution of some groups increased during the Third Reich, and what Germans thought about this.

There was an amendment to paragraph 175 in 1935, as an example of the intensification of the persecution of gay men, extending the prohibitions to proscribe displays of affection between two men. Men arrested under paragraph 175 were often transferred from prison to a KL, which was not the case before the Third Reich. Time in a KL could be, and was sometimes, lethal for those so incarcerated. Gay men reported later feeling more isolated and at greater risk than before, leaving aside some of the liberalization in sinful Berlin during Weimar.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1913
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: What motivated the German resistance?

Post by Balsamo » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:27 pm

Well it was just to point out that there never was a "Homosexual" Holocaust. To include a harsh criminilization of whatever type of then illegal behavior into the history of a genocide, is just wrong. And this is what the European Parliament did a couple of years ago...quite a long time ago, i don't remember when, and yes that pisses me off.

Yes, as i said, some of the "homosexual criminals" were transferred to KZ, but not all of them, and not in a systematic manner, as far as i know, and until proven otherwise NOT systematic, i guess it would depend on who the "criminal" was, and his origins and mostly on who actually sent you into trouble. Now i don 't have number on hand, but i would welcome some, if a point was to be made.

Now of course, if the subject of the global policy of repression that has been imposed on the German population, like the concept of "asocials" which covered many types of "unacceptable behavior" within a focus on how Nazis thought about a "perfect" society...Then, of course.

But you know, actually, i had many contact with the homosexual community in my home town, because one was one of my best friend, and still is, and i enjoyed it, and still would...But when some discussion came about the "so called genocide of gays" as they put it, and sincerely believed it, it was one of those rare occurrence when i was losing my temper!
You might be surprised to see how many "sincerely" believe that homosexuals were sent to gas chambers! Seriously. And it used to drive me nuts!
So YES, those who spread this belief, clearly had a "political agenda" and therefore i call this method a clear abuse of the Holocaust.

There were many many other "crimes" - sometimes real ones, sometimes only political ones, that would have had you sent to a KZ, facing the exact same fate...

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23264
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: What motivated the German resistance?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:34 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:27 pm
Well it was just to point out that there never was a "Homosexual" Holocaust.
Ok, but to be clear in return, no one here said that there was.
Balsamo wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:27 pm
To include a harsh criminilization of whatever type of then illegal behavior into the history of a genocide, is just wrong.
No one here did that, either.
Balsamo wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:27 pm
Yes, as i said, some of the "homosexual criminals" were transferred to KZ, but not all of them, and not in a systematic manner,
No one said that they were systematically transferred to KLs. I wrote "often." And that for some of these the punishment was fatal.

That really pisses me off, truth be told.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1913
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: What motivated the German resistance?

Post by Balsamo » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:42 pm

LOL.

Nowhere did i say anyONE did...

Sorry...must have been some old preventive reflex...

"That really pisses me off, truth be told"
If you mean, people losing their liberty and even lives because of their sexuality, then of course.
And this is one of the reasons that it should not be assimilated to Nazism specifically, as even today there are still some death penalties applying to homosexuals...

Homophobia is probably one of the most irrational way to express being an {!#%@}...And i insist on irrational! Why should anyone care what individuals do with their sexuality is absolutely beyond my understanding.

But precisely because of the history of this specific persecution, to somehow reduced it to Nazi persecution, and through this kind of "whitewashing" the rest of the the societies from those days.
It is certainly NOT normal neither that people like Turing felt they had to shorten their lives.

I mean the history of homophobia, and its condemnation, should stand on its own.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23264
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: What motivated the German resistance?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:50 pm

So we should not acknowledge that the Nazis ratcheted up the persecution of gay men in Germany because ... homophobia needs to be condemned on its own and never when and where and how it occurred? Sorry, not following ...
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1913
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: What motivated the German resistance?

Post by Balsamo » Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:54 pm

Of course, but. But in a proper context.

The word "persecution" for example, in my french understanding, would mean that there was a Nazi policy searching for them in order to arrest the most of them and send them to KZ...
So yes of course, one can speak of "legal" (that is not legitimate but according to existing laws) judicial persecution of homosexuality under the Nazi Regime.

But what i do not agree with is to putting this case into some kind - even pondered - equivalence to more specific Nazi persecutions. And maybe, this did not take place in the US, but then in Europe, "Gay organization" were pressuring the authorities for being recognized as "victims of Nazism", until finally the European Pariliament actually officially recognized the "homosexuals" as having part of the Nazi Holocaust?
Don't you see anything wrong with that ?

I mean, come on, Germany under Hitler was a country of what 80.000.000 ? How many German homosexuals? 1.000.000 ? how many prosecuted, how many sentenced, and how many of them sent to KZ? How many of those lost their lives?
I don't have the numbers,so i look at the wiki pages...they speak about 50.000 indictments...and as the numbers of people who lost their lives in the KZ system, numbers go from 5 to 15.000...
Of course, whatever the number, it is too much, but things should not be assimilated the way it is, at least in Europe, as specific "victims of Nazism"...It is just historically not true, whatever kind of things are published by as i said and assume "politically motivated organizations".

I insist, there has never been any prosecution of homosexuals outside the borders of Nazi Germany, and its annexed territories, there has never been any deportation of homosexuals from France, Belgium or whatever...So whatever the policy was, it should be treated separately, as part of the global repression that the homosexual community has suffered, but not as specific "victims of Nazism".
Simple as that.
I mean, Roehm was not executed because he was gay!

So, when i read that the Nazi persecuted Jews, Gypsies...homosexuals, Jehovah witness..within the same line, it is historically not true.
Any Jehovah witness who would sign a bloody piece of paper stating that he retracting form his belief was freed, and probably enrolled in the Army...many refused...It is great to keep faith in whatever you believe in, but no witness has ever been sent to a gas chamber.

If one wants to open a topic on the specific cases of homosexuality (men, of course Nazis did not care about Lesbians) and Jehovah witnesses, and other so called "asocials", then i am in, as long as it is done in its proper context, as i said.

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4538
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Dwayne de Schwamp
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: What motivated the German resistance?

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:06 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:38 pm
e persecution of gays is, in my opinion, one of those attempts to enlarged the Holocaust to a point of ridicule, within a clear "political or societal" agenda of this gay community. (Oups i am being a "revisionist here since this inclusion has been officially recognized by the EU !!)

First it is important to remind that there was a prohibition of homosexuality since the creation of the German Empire in 1871, punishing of prison sexual relations between men.

Such laws were widepsread across Europe, including Great Britain, Sweden, etc. One of the exception i can think of was France, even under Vichy.

To my knowledge, there had never been any planned operation to kind of "round-up" homosexual communities whatsoever, and no homosexuals have ever been sent to a gas chamber or even been shot for just being one.

What the Nazi Regime did was indeed to increase the legal penalties for "homosexual crimes"...This legislation could be used to get rid of opponents, or as personal vendettas (denunciations), and of course, people could get arrested when caught by the police. Of course, because the KZ system more and more replaced the old penitentiary system, so a portion of those sentenced for their homosexuality were indeed sent to KZ - yes with the pink triangle - where life got tougher especially after 1943, or to be more precise, where life expectancy shrank to such low level that indeed many of them died while "serving their times", just like other "criminals". Nevertheless most were still sent to regular prisons.

But even after 1945, and for a long time, one could still face prosecution and jail time for being caught in an homosexual act!
In Sweden for a very long time, a convicted homosexual had basically the choice between psychiatric treatment in an Asylum, jail or castration!
The article in the Penal code was only officially abolished in the 1990's, IRCC, because actually it was no longer even applied.

A typical example of what i call "Holocaust abuse".

I have the same opinion regarding the "Jehovah witnesses" by the way...

NOT that i support in anyway any of such laws, of course.
Of course. That goes without saying. Nor would any of us.

Anti-sodomy laws have done enormous harm to people who couldn't help the sexual orientation they were born with or acquired at an early age. The most famous victim known to me (a mathematician) was Alan Turing, who was forced to undergo "hormone therapy" during the 1950s, after admitting what struck him as completely innocuous, a sexual relationship with another male.

Of course, the Biblical condemnations of homosexuality, which require capital punishment, remain just what they always were. But only the reptilian dregs of the fundamentalists still want these laws enforced. Indeed, despite their claim that they never compromise on the Bible's clear message, they do exactly that, having switched over the last 20 years from virulent condemnation of homosexuals as demons to what they claim is a "humane" desire to "cure" them of their "affliction." It's all BS; they still have the same visceral hatred of homosexuals they always had, but they are trimming their sails because they recognize that the world has moved against them. So much for their "uncompromising" defense of the literal Bible.
Off Topic
They always had it wrong, in any case. They were fond of quoting St. Paul on this, and he is indeed unequivocal about MALE homosexuality, condemning "males with males working their own condemnation." But his reference to women "forsaking the natural use, exchanging the natural for the unnatural" is NOT a reference to lesbianism. It refers directly to women offering oral sex to men.
Back to the OP: Thanks for this contribution. No matter how one looks at it, the Holocaust destruction of the Jews is a unique event in human history, and can't really be compared with any other.
“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.”

― Frédéric Bastiat (1801–1850), French economist

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23264
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: What motivated the German resistance?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:23 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:54 pm
Of course, but. But in a proper context.
The discussion was in a proper context. It was not in the context you introduced, however.
Balsamo wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:54 pm
The word "persecution" for example, in my french understanding, would mean that there was a Nazi policy searching for them in order to arrest the most of them and send them to KZ...
This is not what the word persecution means or implies. It is a general word that means the unfair, hostile or ill treatment of a group. It has no implicit connection to camps or, necessarily, arrests.
Balsamo wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:54 pm
But what i do not agree with is to putting this case into some kind - even pondered - equivalence to more specific Nazi persecutions. And maybe, this did not take place in the US, but then in Europe, "Gay organization" were pressuring the authorities for being recognized as "victims of Nazism", until finally the European Pariliament actually officially recognized the "homosexuals" as having part of the Nazi Holocaust?
Don't you see anything wrong with that ?
Gay men were not part of the Holocaust as I understand that word; they were, however, treated unjustly by the Third Reich. I didn't raise issues of commemoration, as they are out of context to the discussion here. I thought, and think, that my point in mentioning gay men during the '30s and '40s, the period we were discussing, was clear - and I don't see how we jump from there to commemorations of "victims of Nazism."
Balsamo wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:54 pm
I insist, there has never been any prosecution of homosexuals outside the borders of Nazi Germany, and its annexed territories, there has never been any deportation of homosexuals from France, Belgium or whatever...
But, again, no one here argued that the Nazis saw gay men as a world threat like the Jews, nor that there was a program to kill them across Europe.
Balsamo wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:54 pm
So whatever the policy was, it should be treated separately, as part of the global repression that the homosexual community has suffered, but not as specific "victims of Nazism".
I don't understand the logic, but, aside from that, we were discussing popular German attitudes, not who qualifies as "victims of Nazism."
Balsamo wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:54 pm
I mean, Roehm was not executed because he was gay!
OTOH I just by chance read a passage in a book on victims, perpetrators and bystanders that noted that "capital punishment for homosexuality was imposed [in Germany] in 1942 and applied above all in the armed forces." That Roehm was not executed for being gay in 1934 doesn't mean, of course, that gay men in Germany weren't criminalized - after all, you wrote above that they were, before, during and after the Third Reich. So I grow more and more confused.
Balsamo wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:54 pm
So, when i read that the Nazi persecuted Jews, Gypsies...homosexuals, Jehovah witness..within the same line, it is historically not true.
But I didn't write about mass murder, I mentioned, in context, the lack popular resistance to persecutions of "Sinti and Roma, gay Germans, political opponents, asocials, trade unionists, and others defined as outside the national community, either - let alone Nazi visions of conquest and rule in the East and across Europe." I didn't equate, for example, the outlawing of political parties and trade unions with the mass murder of Jews.
Balsamo wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:54 pm
Any Jehovah witness who would sign a bloody piece of paper stating that he retracting form his belief was freed, and probably enrolled in the Army...many refused...It is great to keep faith in whatever you believe in, but no witness has ever been sent to a gas chamber.
But the discussion wasn't about who was sent to a gas chamber. It was about anti-Semitism and resistance.
Balsamo wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:54 pm
If one wants to open a topic on the specific cases of homosexuality (men, of course Nazis did not care about Lesbians) and Jehovah witnesses, and other so called "asocials", then i am in, as long as it is done in its proper context, as i said.
I surely don't. But, please, you changed the context of a general discussion of anti-Semitism and the concept of the national community to genocide, the gas chambers, and mass murder. Then got pissed off that there was an implication, which you created, of making these different things equivalent. Very odd.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

Balmoral95
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2467
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:14 am
Location: The Free Nambia Healthcare Nirvana

Re: What motivated the German resistance?

Post by Balmoral95 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:31 am

Ahem, Upton posted above that a thread re Nazi policy towards homosexuals might be interesting.... I took this to mean he was suggesting a SEPARATE thread for that conversation....

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23264
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: What motivated the German resistance?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:52 am

Yeah, this got off topic. Sorry.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

Balmoral95
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2467
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:14 am
Location: The Free Nambia Healthcare Nirvana

Re: What motivated the German resistance?

Post by Balmoral95 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:36 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:52 am
Yeah, this got off topic. Sorry.
No problemo...

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4538
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Dwayne de Schwamp
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: What motivated the German resistance?

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:55 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:52 am
Yeah, this got off topic. Sorry.
Hey, no problem. I learn every time I read a post on this board. The unique aspect of the Holocaust was the identification of the Jews as enemies of the human race who needed to be eradicated. I doubt that Roma, for example, were thought of in that way. Undesirable, perhaps (they are still regarded as undesirable in Britain, as I know from living there), but not enemies who need to be destroyed. Nearly all the other persecuted groups---the infirm, the Slavs, Roma, homosexuals (?)---can be classified under one heading. The Jews were in a class by themselves.
“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.”

― Frédéric Bastiat (1801–1850), French economist

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23264
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: What motivated the German resistance?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:06 pm

>> The unique aspect of the Holocaust was the identification of the Jews as enemies of the human race who needed to be eradicated.

That sense of a world enemy or pestilence that had to be eradicated - that Europe could not be well unless the Jews were done away with - indeed IMO, was what separated the Nazi persecution of the Jews from other groups persecuted by the regime, including those subject to mass murder.

I’d add to this another aspect: Jews could not, in the Nazi conception, do anything to "lift" this collective death penalty. Bible believers, political opponents, gay men, asocials, "habitual criminals," etc could, according to Nazi views, change their behavior to become more acceptable to the national community.

The "congenitally ill" and insane could not, of course, “reform” in the same manner, nor for the most part could the Sinti and Roma - but, even though the death tolls among the Sinti and Roma were very high during the war years, they were not the target of a systematic campaign for their virtually complete extermination (based on my limited reading).

But, back to the point of the thread, that many Germans excluded individuals seen as belonging to these persecuted groups from their universe of obligation, let alone from being a part of the community, is different to eliminationist anti-Semitism, as described by Goldhagen. This, in a nutshell, is why I find Balsamo's responses here and in this context so perplexing.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Upton_O_Goode
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4538
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:15 am
Custom Title: Dwayne de Schwamp
Location: The Land Formerly Known as Pangea

Re: What motivated the German resistance?

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:42 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:06 pm
I’d add to this another aspect: Jews could not, in the Nazi conception, do anything to "lift" this collective death penalty. Bible believers, political opponents, gay men, asocials, "habitual criminals," etc could, according to Nazi views, change their behavior to become more acceptable to the national community.

The "congenitally ill" and insane could not, of course, “reform” in the same manner, nor for the most part could the Sinti and Roma - but, even though the death tolls among the Sinti and Roma were very high during the war years, they were not the target of a systematic campaign for their virtually complete extermination (based on my limited reading).

But, back to the point of the thread, that many Germans excluded individuals seen as belonging to these persecuted groups from their universe of obligation, let alone from being a part of the community, is different to eliminationist anti-Semitism, as described by Goldhagen. This, in a nutshell, is why I find Balsamo's responses here and in this context so perplexing.
Goldhagen appears to agree that it was the ineradicability of the stain of Jewish ethnicity that made the Holocaust what it was. The other groups might need to be killed in the name of efficiency or morality, but, as the Nazis saw it, killing Jews was a matter of survival. Again, that is what distinguishes Nazi antisemitism/eliminationist antisemitism from the religiously-based antisemitism inherited from the past. It's like a virus that mutated and became much more virulent. It doesn't follow, as the Catholic "We Remember" document would like us to believe, that the one had nothing to do with the other.
“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.”

― Frédéric Bastiat (1801–1850), French economist

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1913
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: What motivated the German resistance?

Post by Balsamo » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:12 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:42 pm
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:06 pm
I’d add to this another aspect: Jews could not, in the Nazi conception, do anything to "lift" this collective death penalty. Bible believers, political opponents, gay men, asocials, "habitual criminals," etc could, according to Nazi views, change their behavior to become more acceptable to the national community.

The "congenitally ill" and insane could not, of course, “reform” in the same manner, nor for the most part could the Sinti and Roma - but, even though the death tolls among the Sinti and Roma were very high during the war years, they were not the target of a systematic campaign for their virtually complete extermination (based on my limited reading).

But, back to the point of the thread, that many Germans excluded individuals seen as belonging to these persecuted groups from their universe of obligation, let alone from being a part of the community, is different to eliminationist anti-Semitism, as described by Goldhagen. This, in a nutshell, is why I find Balsamo's responses here and in this context so perplexing.
Goldhagen appears to agree that it was the ineradicability of the stain of Jewish ethnicity that made the Holocaust what it was. The other groups might need to be killed in the name of efficiency or morality, but, as the Nazis saw it, killing Jews was a matter of survival. Again, that is what distinguishes Nazi antisemitism/eliminationist antisemitism from the religiously-based antisemitism inherited from the past. It's like a virus that mutated and became much more virulent. It doesn't follow, as the Catholic "We Remember" document would like us to believe, that the one had nothing to do with the other.
The problem with Goldhagen is that he has it all wrong from the start. I have never really understood what he meant by his "eliminationist anitisemtism" in the first place...and basically using future events to prove a imaginary reality within the past. Of course, there were specificities to German Antisemitism, at least sort of, and among others, Goldhagen shed some lights on it. But his approach is more or less one of a district attorney building a case, determined from the start to reject whatever might be brought up by the defense.

I will dig deeper in my next thread, but history should be study starting from the past, not the future, and until Hitler rise to power, and even more before the war started, there were no exclusive German Antisemitism to speak of. It was (i still is) a transnational phenomenon.
Since this thread is not about Antisemitism, i will stop here.
But suffice to say that ideology by itself is not enough to provoke a genocide such as the holocaust.

Regarding the Resistance, well...this also always amazed me someway. I always wonder what people actually expect.
Resistance can only be and always marginal without leaders and supports. There will always be some brave that will keep on fighting in the context of a war, after the defeat or surrender, but during peacetime?
I don't know if Statmec, or any of you, has read Sebastian Haffner's memoir, but he writes that the day after Hitler final election in 1933, all political leaders who could represent the 57% of the German voters who did not vote for Hitler, well actually chose to "Run away" and did not profit from the popular anger, even in the region (like around Berlin) where the NSDAP clearly under performed. They all left the stage.

The SA lost no time to strike where it could hurt, unionist leaders, and influential personalities that could pose problem were taken care of fast. Not only did everything go very fast, but in this crucial periods, the Nazi regime still enjoyed the patronage of Old president Hindenburg. After all, nothing was really illegal.

One of Haffner pertinent remark is when he outlines how Nazi antisemitism was perceived - ridiculously - by the German as a stain on the Nazi movement, not its best aspects, but one that could somehow be overlooked when the Nation was confronted with "important national issues". After all, every national revolutions involve some part of "unpleasant" violence, and wasn't this a form a national revolution? Like always, initial violence, it was believed, would ease when things settle.

What really stroke me reading those memoirs, was that the author could very well have been one of us today, a normal quite cultured person faced with a situation he perceived very well from the start, but also quite aware that he was just one German among 80 millions. First he would seek refuge in his comfort zone, only to realize that this "private zone" was getting smaller and smaller fast.
Normal life could seem "normal" enough for some time with some effort not to look at the bad things that were taking place, long enough to get actually used to the new reality, until it becomes too late...that is when individual resistance for whatever that could actually means, seems futile and just suicidal. When basically the only choice left is to leave or to adapt and to join the lines.
For the story, Haffner will chose to leave, a first attempt to Paris where he could not make a living and had to come back, he would then marry a Jewish women and miraculously reached London before the war started.

Like him we could all be stuck in such a situation.

The war, contrary to one what could think, makes resistance even more difficult, as the Nation is at war, and act against the Regime would be assimilated to an act against the Nation and one would become a traitor to the Fatherland, a tag not well accepted even after the war.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9587
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: What motivated the German resistance?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:53 pm

Hi, Upton. Getting caught up but I wrote something about this a few months back:

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=29503
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951