The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Darren Wilshak » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:49 am

Right so dismiss them and move on.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by VFX » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:53 am

You need to produce all their testimony so that an actual comparison can be made. Note that one description is for the "first Sobibor gas chambers" implying there were others.
People involved in the direct technical aspects of a mass execution would not forget the minute details any more than an old panel beater would forget if he dealt with steel or fibre glass bodies in the past. This is a forum to discuss not produce a wall of text: people can read that themselves. Fuchs observed nothing and neither did the rest. The testimony is as fake as the Chlorine testimony. I can understand say a traffic policeman making a mistake over time if it was a left or right tail light that was damaged in a defended hearing some months later after a DIC incident; this happens in seconds. These people were involved in the same operation allegedly day after day and can remember the exact details just I can remember every house I have lived in since 5 years old. The direct testimony here is pure and simply lying for one reason or another. I hope the judges were not as foolish as the investigating officers in Scotland if that is the standard of evidence accepted. No wonder why they need two cops in a patrol car to corroborate the evidence. Pathetic.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by nickterry » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:38 am

montgomery wrote: I have no problem admitting anything dear doctor. I grabbed the link as en example of more phonies and that's about the extent of it. Which phony it refers to is of little importance to an uninformed holocaust skeptic. Don't sweat the small stuff when you have so much more to sweat on not being able to produce that one eyewitness you can stand behind.
1. I've given you more than 200 specific names, broken down by location and perspective. They all happen to be discussed in 'revisionist' literature, so you have your cribs. Working out which testimonies are translated into English and put online as a whole is your job, if you want to see the whole testimony.
2. I’ve also given you an index of evidence to Auschwitz which includes identifying some of the testimonies you’re asking for AS WELL AS THE CONTEMPORARY DOCUMENTS. The documents can’t be forgotten here. Whichever site or camp interests you, someone will bring up the relevant documents.
3. I've given you a link to a comprehensive list of open-access online archives several times. Working out how to locate sources on these archives is also your job. The open-access archives list even has a section for testimonies/memoirs – several examples are from the 1940s.
4. I've indicated to you no fewer than 70 types of source-gathering that went on in the 1940s, during and after the war, which collected eyewitness accounts, 17 before liberation and 53 after liberation. Quite a few of these are online and listed in the open-access online archives guide. The others should be remembered if you want to discuss a specific site, like Auschwitz, or Chelmno.
5. I’ve given you more than 400 titles of history books which routinely use these testimonies – several of which are online (I also indicated those titles in the book discussion sticky). They also discuss the investigations, commissions and other source-gathering formats or types of sources. Ignorance of context is no excuse in a serious discussion.
You're starting to resort to the same tactics as s.m. already and that's not even taking account of how you resorted to calling me an a-hole because of what appeared to be your frustration of me not agreeing with your dogma.
I've debated with Holocaust deniers on and off for twelve years on the internet - I must have crossed paths with hundreds of deniers, 'revisionists', self-styled skeptics and unique snowflakes over that time. If I have called any of them rude names, it's not because they disagree with me, but because of their behaviour.
Your holocaust remains a farce dear doctor, without the eye witness. Is one real eye witness too much to ask? :oops:
There are somewhere between 100 and 200,000 eyewitness testimonies to different aspects of the Holocaust; I know of more than 2,000 published memoirs alone. Your request for one witness is meaningless until you specify which site, camp or region you want to discuss.

But since you're apparently incapable of making your mind up what you want to discuss, let's start with the very first lengthy eyewitness account to an extermination camp where Jews were murdered with gas, the early 1942 testimony of Szlama Winer aka Szlamek Bajler (he used pseudonyms while in hiding) regarding the extermination camp of Chelmno
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... aries.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szlama_Ber_Winer

We can then bring up other testimonies from 1942, from 1945 and from later on, and also discuss the contemporary documents, which are rather copious for Chelmno. Since this was the very first extermination camp set up by the Nazis, then there's no better starting-point. It's kind of a 'do not pass go' scenario here for you.
Apparently it is because they were ignorant and stupid fools who passed off nonsense back in the 40's and 50's that people laugh about in the 21st. century. Deal with it! I suggest that the lampshades and the lobster steaming 'gas ovens' of the 40's and 50's have now become the gassing Cremeries of the present day. And I"m not going to allow any of you to get away with passing off that kind of pathetic crapola!!
Please identify the direct-eyewitness accounts to "lampshades and the lobster steaming 'gas ovens' of the 40's and 50's" to which you are referring. You made such a fuss over other people identifying witnesses, so you should be able to demonstrate your superior knowledge here and give specific details of who said this. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

'Lampshades' never had anything to do with the extermination of European Jews, so even if you could make your case there, it would be not very relevant to the Jewish Holocaust. They are associated with non-Jewish victims in the Buchenwald main camp only, and there were nearly twenty such main camps, along with over 1,000 sub-camps, many quite large. Protip: blethering on about lampshades as if this was a major feature of the Jewish Holocaust makes you look exceedingly ill-informed.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by VFX » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:59 am

nickterry wrote:
Please identify the direct-eyewitness the lobster steaming 'gas ovens' of the 40's and 50's" to which you are referring.
This may help Monty, here is the indictement. 3311ps charge number 6 declared true and factual by Dr Cyprian.
Image
These reports came from eyewitnesses outside the camps but clearly used in an attempt to prosecute Hans Frank.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:14 am

nickterry wrote:But since you're apparently incapable of making your mind up what you want to discuss, let's start with the very first lengthy eyewitness account to an extermination camp where Jews were murdered with gas, the early 1942 testimony of Szlama Winer aka Szlamek Bajler (he used pseudonyms while in hiding) regarding the extermination camp of Chelmno
Ironically, in one of the first direct replies to the earliest of this guy's repetitive requests, I wrote
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
montgomery wrote:https://www.amazon.com/Expulsion-Exterm ... 187.html#2

That one by Bankler doesn't even seem to be published yet! Or is it such a wet rag that Amazon or other sellers won't list it. Nope! That one fails and I'm not going to do your homework by going through your list of gags to find one that dates to the 40's.

And especially when you've told me that the good doctor pretty well said one doesn't exist. And doesn't have to exist either, so there! Idiot numbnuts.

Fill your boots fast or I'm going to own you.
Correction re: my reply to this post made earlier; Amazon lists the volume as having a pub date of 2012; I checked this morning and it is actually 2011; the testimonies collected in the Bankier book number 80 taken from the DP camp interviews in the Koniuchovsky collection; these interviews were done over the period 1946-1948. The interview records are at Yad Vashem in the O.71 series.

For those keeping score at home, some other well-known post-war Holocaust testimonies, which montgomery no longer wants to hear about, are the DEGOB testimonies from Hungarian Jews (1945-1948, 3500 testimonies); Warsaw testimonies collected in Kermish's book To Live with Honor and Die with Honor (the tip of the iceberg that is the Oyneg Shabes collection); scads of diaries including famous ones like Kruk and Tory (Lithuania), Kaplan and Lewin (Warsaw), Perechodnik (Otwock), Goldfard (Galicia) - this list could go on and on; testimonies of Treblinka escapees like Rabinowitz and Krzepicki and other such AR testimonies; the testimonies of Heinz May, Winer, and Podchlebnik; as noted above many Auschwitz witness accounts which the Auschwitz Museum has been publishing in the Voices of Memory series; and so on. The number of testimonies from the '40s is mind-boggling; that a member of this forum isn't aware of this fact is also mind-boggling.
Maybe he will see fit to discuss Winer's testimony this time round?
nickterry wrote:Please identify the direct-eyewitness accounts to ... the lobster steaming 'gas ovens' of the 40's and 50's" to which you are referring. You made such a fuss over other people identifying witnesses, so you should be able to demonstrate your superior knowledge here and give specific details of who said this. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
Just so that those following not so closely will understand, over two weeks ago this guy asked if he was to take it that "steam ovens" were the "the principle method used??" to kill Jews at Treblinka. (This was when he was trying to debunk Grossman as an eyewitness . . . )

I again replied, at once, by posting two links to tell him "no" - in the first link, two principal witnesses to early events at Treblinka (Krzepicki, Rabinowicz) are discussed at length. For a few days montgomery pretended not to have been given such detail - until I finally asked him some questions and then helped him answer the questions, which ended his interest in Treblinka witnesses.

VFX was part of the "lobster steaming" hubbub - and he too failed to read and deal with the links I posted; here and here are two summaries of the material I linked to. No doubt, one of the two will pop up to blurt out what the links and summaries discuss and "debunk" - still without addressing the arguments against the old denier chestnut.

Sorry to veer a bit off topic: indeed, let's discuss Winer and the other evidence that ties to his testimony for Chelmno.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:18 am

And on cue . . .
VFX wrote:
nickterry wrote:
Please identify the direct-eyewitness the lobster steaming 'gas ovens' of the 40's and 50's" to which you are referring.
This may help Monty, here is the indictement. 3311ps charge number 6 declared true and factual by Dr Cyprian. < snip >
Montgomery has already been helped, in spades, and decided he wasn't interested. Recall, he set out saying he wanted to do one-minute genocide and Holocaust for dummies ... not read explanations, details, and analysis ...

But, no, Nick asked
Please identify the direct-eyewitness accounts to . . . the lobster steaming 'gas ovens' of the 40's and 50's" to which you are referring
so you don't get to give a non-answer, which the Polish government's charge is. The Polish government was not a direct eyewitness, doofus. Try again - name and discuss the eyewitnesses. Or does Nick need to teach you what an eyewitness is?

Pro tip: The Polish government had some details wrong, the IMT found that Treblinka had used gas (not steam) to kill Jews (from the IMT Judgment: "all who were not fit to work were destroyed in gas chambers and their bodies burnt. Certain concentration camps such as Treblinka and Auschwitz were set aside for this main purpose" - to make this simple, the tribunal didn't accept certain details of the Polish government charge, like the use of steam), and eyewitness accounts were discussed in the links I posted just above. Really, just read what you've been spoon-fed.

Ok, I'm more interested right now to hear about Winer and Chelmno, you guys had your chances with steam and have repeatedly blown them ...
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by VFX » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:29 am

Image
NAZIS
STEAMED
JEWS
TO DEATH
LONDON
. — From two
exiled Governments have
come reports of new
massacres among their
people.
THE semi-official Polish Govern-
ment publication "Liberty"
gave horrifying details of a Ger-
man concentration camp in the vil
lage of Treblinka, between War-
saw and Bialystok. Since March,
1942, the village, it stated, "has be-
come the execution ground for
Jews from the whole of Poland
and other countries in Europe."
Added "Liberty": — "Near a rail
siding at the west end of the camp
is a path running through the
forest to a large brick building. In
side the house is a corridor 10 ft.
wide, on each side of which are
five cells, with neither doors nor
windows.
Cunning Device
"In the wall of each is a trap-
door, and running along the cells
are pipes, through which steam
can be forced at a high pressure.
This is House of Death Number
Two.
"At right angles to it is House of
Death Number One, also a brick
building, consisting of three large
cells and a boilerhouse.
"When the death steam is turned
on, the doors and trapdoors in the
cells are hermetically sealed.
"Nearby is the gravediggers'
quarters, and the quarters of 40
warders, armed with tommy-guns.
Jewish gravediggers are man-
handled and beaten with whips,
seldom live longer than a fortnight.
"The Houses of Death are for
cases of extreme punishment; other
victims are merely lined up on the
edge of graves and shot through
the back of the head, so that they
fall into the graves.
"On one single day 500 Jews
were thus executed."

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:33 am

So what? You still haven't named an eyewitness as Nick requested. Don't you know any? This thread is a "quest" for eyewitnesses, not unsubstantiated newspaper articles - can't you read?

(For truly interested readers, the links I gave above explain how some erroneous, early details made their way into, er, media reports during the war - and also show how and when those details were "corrected.")
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by VFX » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:05 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote: not unsubstantiated newspaper articles

(For truly interested readers, the links I gave above explain how some erroneous, early details made their way into, er, media reports during the war - and also show how and when those details were "corrected.")
The "eyewitnesses" were the Polish Underground it is claimed but in fact it was just propaganda made up by the Polish Government in exile.
The Treblinka steam story is also given in detail in The Black Book of Polish Jewry, a work published in New York in 1943 and "sponsored" by Albert Einstein, Mrs. Eleanor Roosevelt, Congressman Sol Bloom, New York Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia, and other personalities. Another book, Lest We Forget, published in New York in 1943 by the World Jewish Congress, describes in detail how Jews were steamed to death, and provides a diagram showing the location of the purported "boiler room" that produced the "live steam." (World Jewish Congress, Lest We Forget (New York: 1943), pp. 4, 6-7.; See also the reference to killings at Treblinka by "hot steam" in Hitler's Ten-Year War On the Jews (p. 149), a book published in New York in 1943 by the "Institute of Jewish Affairs," an agency of the American Jewish Congress and the World Jewish Congress.)
American prosecutors at the main Nuremberg trial supported the steam story, dispite the testimony of Samuel Rajzman who had several conflicting accounts. As proof, a Polish government report dated December 5, 1945, was submitted as prosecution exhibit USA-293. It charged that Jews were killed at the camp "by suffocating them in steam-filled chambers." This report, which says nothing about poison gas killings, was published in the official Nuremberg trial record as document PS-3311. ihr

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:29 pm

>> The "eyewitnesses" were the Polish Underground it is claimed but in fact it was just propaganda made up by the Polish Government in exile.

No, the witnesses were not ”Polish Underground.” I can give their names, which so far elude you. Also, the reports on which news stories and other charges mentioning “steam” were based did not originate with the Polish underground. You show no familiarity with the evidence base.

Will you be providing us with an archive reference for your claim then?

No matter what was published at the time and no matter what the Polish government charged at the IMT, the IMT said in its judgment that at Treblinka gas was used to murder Jews. I quoted the judgment; charges are not findings even if you repeat a rejected charge over and over.

Want to try again to name a witness in reply to Nick’s question or do you want to leave the impression you think that a charge not accepted by a court and newspaper articles are “eyewitnesses”?

And if you think that it was the “Polish Underground” that was an eyewitness, please give particulars. Again, you’re flat-out wrong. It is ironic that I can name witnesses to answer Nick’s question but you can’t.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:43 pm

VFX, on second thought, while I enjoy seeing you flounder and make a fool of yourself on one of your key claims about Treblinka, you’ve so complexly discredited yourself here that it is probably best you let Montgomery answer Nick. Just sayin’
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by VFX » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:02 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:VFX, on second thought, while I enjoy seeing you flounder and make a fool of yourself on one of your key claims about Treblinka, you’ve so complexly discredited yourself here that it is probably best you let Montgomery answer Nick. Just sayin’
The only Sauna for Treblinka would be part of the hospital scenario already mentioned.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:03 pm

Steam was not used at Treblinka for murder and withering about saunas won’t help your case, your difficulty naming any witnesses and your obliviousness to what’s in archives.

Please, as you have shown your ignorance of the sources about this, do let others have a go.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by VFX » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:10 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Steam was not used at Treblinka for murder and withering about saunas won’t help your case, your difficulty naming any witnesses and your oblivious to what’s in archives.

Please, as you have shown your ignorance of the sources about this, do let others have a go.
I have all of the documents I need. It was the Polish Underground set up by the Government in exile. They tried similar propaganda in Auschwitz. Anything else is pure fabrication by you.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:19 pm

Archive references that prove your case? Both as to the role of the Polish underground as originator and as to my fabricating and repeating propaganda?

You should know I have references that show you wrong.

If I were you, I’d let Montgomery take over now. If he echoes your mistakes, Nick and I will be glad to slap your nonsense around for awhile. But first I’d like to see Montgomery support what he too has claimed about this.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Darren Wilshak » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:31 pm

Are they are a couple of masochists or on a mission to make the new Nazi party and themselves and know nothing Revisionism look this bad?
Do they owe us a living?
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Gord » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:45 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote:Are they are a couple of masochists or on a mission to make the new Nazi party and themselves and know nothing Revisionism look this bad?
troll
noun: troll; plural noun: trolls

1. a person who makes a deliberately offensive or provocative online post.
a deliberately offensive or provocative online posting.

verb: troll; 3rd person present: trolls; past tense: trolled; past participle: trolled; gerund or present participle: trolling

1. make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.
"if people are obviously trolling then I'll delete your posts and do my best to ban you"
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#ANDAMOVIE
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Darren Wilshak » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:49 pm

OK so they are just a pair of trolls. They still do themselves and Revisionism no favours.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:30 pm

@VFX:
Please identify the direct-eyewitness the lobster steaming 'gas ovens' of the 40's and 50's" to which you are referring.
This may help Monty, here is the indictement. 3311ps charge number 6 declared true and factual by Dr Cyprian.
Image
These reports came from eyewitnesses outside the camps but clearly used in an attempt to prosecute Hans Frank.
Where is the full document?
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:43 pm

Jeffk, 3311-PS is found in vol 32 of the IMT blue series, pp 153-158.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:45 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote:OK so they are just a pair of trolls. They still do themselves and Revisionism no favours.
And since they show no sign of wanting to change their already made up minds, why should anyone still be bothering with them. If they really wanted to learn something, there's plenty material posted and linked to here already. Let them ask any questions arising from that, and they will be answered.



Edit: Corrected quoting.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:50 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Jeffk, 3311-PS is found in vol 32 of the IMT blue series, pp 153-158.

Thanks, that’ll save time. I started scanning through to find it.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:56 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Jeffk, 3311-PS is found in vol 32 of the IMT blue series, pp 153-158.

Thanks, that’ll save time. I started scanning through to find it.
Maybe you could teach a certain member how that works. :-P
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:03 pm

I found it from some Carlos Porter fan, it says this:
The best known of these death camps are those of Treblinka, Belzec and Sobiber in the Lublin district. In these camps the Jews were put to death in their thousands by hitherto unknown, new methods, gas and steam chambers as well as electric current employed on a large scale.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/aladinsmir ... linka/amp/

I remember it mentioning gas chambers but couldn’t find my copy (thought I’d saved it).

I’m sure VFX and Monty won’t mind me quoting another denier.

BTW, Stat Mech, if you scroll down you’ll find someone you know.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:07 pm

Tark!!
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:20 pm

Hhhhhhhhmmmmm, wait, did someone want to know about a witness from the 1940’s not discredited by allegations of soap, lampshades or steam chambers?
RAJZMAN: Transports arrived there every day; their number depended on the number of trains arriving; sometimes three, four, or five trains filled exclusively with Jews -- from Czechoslovakia, Germany, Greece, and Poland. Immediately after their arrival, the people had to leave the trains in 5 minutes and line up on the platform. All those who were driven from the cars were divided into groups -- men, children, and women, all separate. They were all forced to strip immediately, and this procedure continued under the lashes of the German guards' whips. Workers who were employed in this operation immediately picked up all the clothes and carried them away to barracks. Then the people were obliged to walk naked through the street to the gas chambers.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: I would like you to tell the Tribunal what the Germans called the street to the gas chambers.

RAJZMAN: It was named Himmelfahrt Street.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: That is to say, the "street to heaven"?

RAJZMAN: Yes. If it interests the Court, I can present a plan of the camp of Treblinka which I drew up when I was there, and I can point out to the Tribunal this street on the plan.

THE PRESIDENT: I do not think it is necessary to put in a plan of the camp, unless you particularly want to.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Yes, I also believe that it is not really necessary.

Please tell us, how long did a person live after he had arrived in the Treblinka Camp?

325

27 Feb. 46

RAJZMAN: The whole process of undressing and the walk down to the gas chambers lasted, for the men 8 or 10 minutes, and for the women some 15 minutes. The women took 15 minutes because they had to have their hair shaved off before they went to the gas chambers.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Why was their hair cut off?

RAJZMAN: According to the ideas of the masters, this hair was to be used in the manufacture of mattresses for German women.

THE PRESIDENT: Do you mean that there was only 10 minutes between the time when they were taken out of the trucks and the time when they were put into the gas chambers?

RAJZMAN: As far as men were concerned, I am sure it did not last longer than 10 minutes.
You know, I looked. No steam.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-27-46.asp
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:44 pm

Yeah, to repeat. About two years ago I sampled 83 testimonies about Treblinka, of which I was able to identify references to method of death in about half (43).

36 witnesses reported murder by means of gas only
1 reported steam only
2 reported gas and/or steam
1 reported gas or electricity
3 reported some combination of gas with air pumped out, chlorine, ether, or Zyklon B

I posted earlier about the context and patterns that explain this result. I got crickets in response.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:57 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Yeah, to repeat. About two years ago I sampled 83 testimonies about Treblinka, of which I was able to identify references to method of death in about half (43).

36 witnesses reported murder by means of gas only
1 reported steam only
2 reported gas and/or steam
1 reported gas or electricity
3 reported some combination of gas with air pumped out, chlorine, ether, or Zyklon B

I posted earlier about the context and patterns that explain this result. I got crickets in response.
...but gnats making ridiculous assertions and spewing insults in other topics than the one discussed.
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:24 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Yeah, to repeat. About two years ago I sampled 83 testimonies about Treblinka, of which I was able to identify references to method of death in about half (43).

36 witnesses reported murder by means of gas only
1 reported steam only
2 reported gas and/or steam
1 reported gas or electricity
3 reported some combination of gas with air pumped out, chlorine, ether, or Zyklon B

I posted earlier about the context and patterns that explain this result. I got crickets in response.
I don’t expect a response either. I guess they only want to dwell on steam.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:27 pm

nickterry wrote:
montgomery wrote: I have no problem admitting anything dear doctor. I grabbed the link as en example of more phonies and that's about the extent of it. Which phony it refers to is of little importance to an uninformed holocaust skeptic. Don't sweat the small stuff when you have so much more to sweat on not being able to produce that one eyewitness you can stand behind.
1. I've given you more than 200 specific names, broken down by location and perspective. They all happen to be discussed in 'revisionist' literature, so you have your cribs. Working out which testimonies are translated into English and put online as a whole is your job, if you want to see the whole testimony.
2. I’ve also given you an index of evidence to Auschwitz which includes identifying some of the testimonies you’re asking for AS WELL AS THE CONTEMPORARY DOCUMENTS. The documents can’t be forgotten here. Whichever site or camp interests you, someone will bring up the relevant documents.
3. I've given you a link to a comprehensive list of open-access online archives several times. Working out how to locate sources on these archives is also your job. The open-access archives list even has a section for testimonies/memoirs – several examples are from the 1940s.
4. I've indicated to you no fewer than 70 types of source-gathering that went on in the 1940s, during and after the war, which collected eyewitness accounts, 17 before liberation and 53 after liberation. Quite a few of these are online and listed in the open-access online archives guide. The others should be remembered if you want to discuss a specific site, like Auschwitz, or Chelmno.
5. I’ve given you more than 400 titles of history books which routinely use these testimonies – several of which are online (I also indicated those titles in the book discussion sticky). They also discuss the investigations, commissions and other source-gathering formats or types of sources. Ignorance of context is no excuse in a serious discussion.
You're starting to resort to the same tactics as s.m. already and that's not even taking account of how you resorted to calling me an a-hole because of what appeared to be your frustration of me not agreeing with your dogma.
I've debated with Holocaust deniers on and off for twelve years on the internet - I must have crossed paths with hundreds of deniers, 'revisionists', self-styled skeptics and unique snowflakes over that time. If I have called any of them rude names, it's not because they disagree with me, but because of their behaviour.
Your holocaust remains a farce dear doctor, without the eye witness. Is one real eye witness too much to ask? :oops:
There are somewhere between 100 and 200,000 eyewitness testimonies to different aspects of the Holocaust; I know of more than 2,000 published memoirs alone. Your request for one witness is meaningless until you specify which site, camp or region you want to discuss.

But since you're apparently incapable of making your mind up what you want to discuss, let's start with the very first lengthy eyewitness account to an extermination camp where Jews were murdered with gas, the early 1942 testimony of Szlama Winer aka Szlamek Bajler (he used pseudonyms while in hiding) regarding the extermination camp of Chelmno
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... aries.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szlama_Ber_Winer

We can then bring up other testimonies from 1942, from 1945 and from later on, and also discuss the contemporary documents, which are rather copious for Chelmno. Since this was the very first extermination camp set up by the Nazis, then there's no better starting-point. It's kind of a 'do not pass go' scenario here for you.
Apparently it is because they were ignorant and stupid fools who passed off nonsense back in the 40's and 50's that people laugh about in the 21st. century. Deal with it! I suggest that the lampshades and the lobster steaming 'gas ovens' of the 40's and 50's have now become the gassing Cremeries of the present day. And I"m not going to allow any of you to get away with passing off that kind of pathetic crapola!!
Please identify the direct-eyewitness accounts to "lampshades and the lobster steaming 'gas ovens' of the 40's and 50's" to which you are referring. You made such a fuss over other people identifying witnesses, so you should be able to demonstrate your superior knowledge here and give specific details of who said this. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

'Lampshades' never had anything to do with the extermination of European Jews, so even if you could make your case there, it would be not very relevant to the Jewish Holocaust. They are associated with non-Jewish victims in the Buchenwald main camp only, and there were nearly twenty such main camps, along with over 1,000 sub-camps, many quite large. Protip: blethering on about lampshades as if this was a major feature of the Jewish Holocaust makes you look exceedingly ill-informed.
Thanks doc Terry for the reference. I searched and found my own which appears to be the same guy because some of the details match.

https://prezi.com/rycjhul56ec6/szlamek-bajler-diaries/ And so a few minor problems with this story:

I don't buy all the aliases and find that suspect. He's likely told stories under one of the other aliases.
The story as related in this link has the guy jumping to freedom and then into being captured somehow?
January 20, 1942 wasn't a Monday as claimed.
Two men can't carry 14 pickaxes and shovels, especially in their condition.

I'll check it out further but you've handed me a difficult one because of all the aliases. On purpose? Right now, it's already not lookin too good.

edit: Then I found this: The Belzec Death Camp: History, Biographies, Remembrance
https://books.google.ca/books?isbn=3838268261
Chris Webb - 2016 - ‎History
His second gransdon, Dr. Leszek Allerhand, published the diary in Poland in 2003, under the title Notes from ... Deported to Belzec together with Szlamek Bajler.

I'm pretty confident in calling this just another latter day fake!

Do you have another one?
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:49 pm

LOL
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:58 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:LOL
That's what I started to do too. I'm going to have to ask VFX for more info on this one because with all the name changes it's getting too time consuming. I would think that with his obvious knowledge of the issues, he would have been asked by now to disprove all of them.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:01 pm

In doing research on this character I was led to this one:

https://itpc-china.org/watch?v=kLbc-cncpiU

A bit of drama with more holes in it than a swiss cheese!

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:02 pm

montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:LOL
That's what I started to do too. I'm going to have to ask VFX for more info on this one because with all the name changes it's getting too time consuming. I would think that with his obvious knowledge of the issues, he would have been asked by now to disprove all of them.
Your reply to Nick was startling in its stupidity. I can see why you laughed.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:03 pm

montgomery wrote:In doing research on this character I was led to this one:

https://itpc-china.org/watch?v=kLbc-cncpiU

A bit of drama with more holes in it than a swiss cheese!
Don't try to change the subject. That's a sign of worry.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:10 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:LOL
That's what I started to do too. I'm going to have to ask VFX for more info on this one because with all the name changes it's getting too time consuming. I would think that with his obvious knowledge of the issues, he would have been asked by now to disprove all of them.
Your reply to Nick was startling in its stupidity. I can see why you laughed.
It got you involved in my discussions again so it must have jerked your chain a little bit. But don't worry, I have the basics that are proving this one to be made up out of whole cloth in 2003 and so I'll continue to work on it with VFX.

These people who fabricate this sort of story are perhaps good people who are trying their best but they just don't have the sophistication to tell a story that isn't full of holes. Most of all, they've heard a story that been retold over and over again and that makes it bogus. That's the reason why we need to hear or read the story directly out of the horse's mouth from writing that dates back to the time in question. Or at least, within the period of time which would be required to write and publish the story. 2003 just doesn't cut the mustard. (swiss cheese)

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:12 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
montgomery wrote:In doing research on this character I was led to this one:

https://itpc-china.org/watch?v=kLbc-cncpiU

A bit of drama with more holes in it than a swiss cheese!
Don't try to change the subject. That's a sign of worry.
I'm going to stick to this subject because I don't want doc Nick to find another one at the cost of this one. So I hope he can find one that wasn't purlished in 2003, but we're going to run with this one til it falls off the rails. And it's already clanking and banging and wobbling along on three wheels! :D

Can you add anything to the story or are you just going to follow along with your finger?

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:14 pm

Question for montgomery: does what Rylee White posted at Prezi match the archival version of Winer's testimony?

The reason I ask is that what's posted at Prezi doesn't match the source which White gives (http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... aries.html)? (the HEART link is also to the English version which Nick linked to, not what White posted at Prezi)
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:16 pm

montgomery wrote:Can you add anything to the story or are you just going to follow along with your finger?
I'm waiting for your answer to Nick's question on steam - and asking you some of my own about Winer. These two items should be fun.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:17 pm

montgomery wrote:It got you involved in my discussions again so it must have jerked your chain a little bit. But don't worry, I have the basics that are proving this one to be made up out of whole cloth in 2003 and so I'll continue to work on it with VFX.
Sorry to disappoint, but, no, I always like to follow along and contribute what I can when Nick posts in threads.
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