The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Nessie » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:37 pm

montgomery wrote:Let's try this a different way!

3) Erich Mussfeldt Krakow - 1947
In charge of crem 2&3 (May - aug 44)

Will you stand behind this one eye witness as credible?
Lets go with him. How does he lie and exaggerate?
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:39 pm

Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:Let's try this a different way!

3) Erich Mussfeldt Krakow - 1947
In charge of crem 2&3 (May - aug 44)

Will you stand behind this one eye witness as credible?
Lets go with him. How does he lie and exaggerate?
Fine Nessie, I will investigate him now. And I'm hoping doctor Terry and s.m. can also stand behind him.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Nessie » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:41 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Nessie, on 25 September (http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 44#p665244), just to let readers know, I linked to DasPrussian's list, and montgomery's response was to ask "Which one?" - I'd already given him a name off the list whom he didn't want to discuss, and to accuse me of lying! The link is contained again in one of the posts I linked to above. Montgomery is doing his best to avoid discussing the witnesses he claims to want to know about.
Monty has agreed to show how Erich Mussfeldt lied and exaggerated. I think we should now just wait for his response.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:46 pm

>> If you gave me one name then produce it. Sorry but I've learned to ignore most of your posts because they are nothing but insults and spam. You made your bed, you get to lie in it.

I already caught you playing this pretend game before. No more.

And when I posted about three witnesses I'd named in reply to an earlier, similar request you made, , by the way, you fell quiet for some reason.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:47 pm

Google search turns up this and nothing else.

https://www.commissiononassisteddying.c ... mussfeldt/

More second or third hand crap. Help or just choose another one for me. Or should I choose?

Listen you H.P.'ers, this is getting a little tiring to say the least. You all know what's required. Produce it or go pull the wings off of your houseflies with s.m's family.

A LINK NESSIE, A LINK.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Nessie » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:51 pm

montgomery wrote:Google search turns up this and nothing else.

https://www.commissiononassisteddying.c ... mussfeldt/

More second or third hand crap. Help or just choose another one for me. Or should I choose?

Listen you H.P.'ers, this is getting a little tiring to say the least. You all know what's required. Produce it or go pull the wings off of your houseflies with s.m's family.

A LINK NESSIE, A LINK.
As far as I can ascertain, his evidence was recorded in Polish. So, since you earlier admitted you only speak English and you have clearly not read Mussfeldt's testimony, do you admit you cannot dismiss him as lying and exaggerating?
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:55 pm

Google search turns up this and nothing else.

https://www.commissiononassisteddying.c ... mussfeldt/

More second or third hand crap. Help or just choose another one for me. Or should I choose?

Listen you H.P.'ers, this is getting a little tiring to say the least. You all know what's required. Produce it or go pull the wings off of your houseflies with s.m's family.

A LINK NESSIE, A LINK.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:57 pm

Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:Google search turns up this and nothing else.

https://www.commissiononassisteddying.c ... mussfeldt/

More second or third hand crap. Help or just choose another one for me. Or should I choose?

Listen you H.P.'ers, this is getting a little tiring to say the least. You all know what's required. Produce it or go pull the wings off of your houseflies with s.m's family.

A LINK NESSIE, A LINK.
As far as I can ascertain, his evidence was recorded in Polish. So, since you earlier admitted you only speak English and you have clearly not read Mussfeldt's testimony, do you admit you cannot dismiss him as lying and exaggerating?
Yes, of course Nessie. I don't read Polish. My next suggestion is Javier Cercas, another eye witness. Do the three of you stand behind him now?

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:59 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:>> If you gave me one name then produce it. Sorry but I've learned to ignore most of your posts because they are nothing but insults and spam. You made your bed, you get to lie in it.

I already caught you playing this pretend game before. No more.

And when I posted about three witnesses I'd named in reply to an earlier, similar request you made, , by the way, you fell quiet for some reason.
Nope, you must be lying again. Be still, the real experts are trying to man up now. You had your chance to be decent and respected enough for me to read your crap.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:02 pm

And so why not Javier Cercas?

The rest of them are no better, no worse! It's all crap of the first order and will remain so until the three of you get up the gumption to stand behind one that's the real thing.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by nickterry » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:08 pm

The last time a denier tried playing the 'just one witness game' was on JREF, with Saggy. Saggy asked me for 'just one credible Jewish witness' to the Holocaust, instead I gave him the names of 200+ witnesses. Since all of these witnesses had been mentioned/cited/discussed by 'revisionist' authors he could have at least referred to denier scriptures about them, but apparently that was too much to expect.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/fo ... count=5868

German– Auschwitz (24)
Rudolf Höss, Hans Aumeier, Maximilian Grabner, Friedrich Entress, Johann Kremer, Horst Fischer, Josef Kramer, Fritz Klein, Franz Hössler, Konrad Morgen, Hans Münch, Richard Baer, Walter Dejaco, Henry Storch, Hans Stark, Erich Mussfeldt, Pery Broad, Richard Böck, Karl Hölbinger, Josef Erber, [Oswald Kaduk, Nowak, Kurt Prüfer, Karl Schultze
German/Collaborator – Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor, Treblinka (24)
Franz Stangl, Josef Oberhauser, Kurt Gerstein, Wilhelm Pfannenstiel, Hermann Höfle, Franz Suchomel, Willi Metz, Otto Horn, Erich Bauer, Alfred Ittner, Gustav Wagner, Franz Hödl, Erwin Lambert, Heinrich Barbl, Heinrich Gley, Werner Karl Dubois, Karl Alfred Schluch, Erich Fuchs, Vassily Pankov, Mikhail Razgoniaev, Ignat Danilchenko, Pavel Leleko, Walter Piller, Bruno Israel
German – Other (27)
Hermann Göring, Ernst Kaltenbrunner, Dieter Wisliceny, Adolf Eichmann, Wilhelm Höttl, Richard Korherr, August Becker, Walter Rauff, Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski, Friedrich Jeckeln, Kurt Becher, Oswald Pohl, Gerhard Maurer, Kurt Schmidt-Klevenow, Anton Kaindl, Hermann Pister, Ilse Koch, Alois Hoellriegel, Paul Waldmann, Oscha Otto Hoppe, Theo Schölen, Otto Ohlendorf, Ostubaf Haensch, Paul Blobel, Hermann Graebe, Eberhard Wetzel, Victor Brack
Auschwitz – Sonderkommandos (21)
Miklos Nyiszli; Filip Müller, Sigismund Bendel, Szlama Dragon, Henryk Tauber, Henryk Mandelbaum, Andre Lettich, Stanislaw Jankowski; Milton Buki, Maurice Benroubi, David Olere, Dov Paisikovic, Joshuah Rosenblum, Josef Sackar, Saul Chasan, Jaacov Gabai, Eliezer Eisenschmidt, Leon Cohen, Shlomo Venezia, Salmen Lewental, Lejb Langfus
Auschwitz – Other (59)
Rudolf Vrba, Alfred Wetzler; Ada Bimko, Janda Weiss, Yehuda Bakon, Mordechai Lichtenstein, Liebermann, Regina Bialek, Sophia Litwinska, Ruth Elias, Klari Weiss, Primo Levi, Kitty Hart, Fania Fenelon, Olga Lengyel, Eugene Heimler, Elie Wiesel, Czeslaw Mordowicz, Arnost Rosin, Benedikt Kautsky, Moshe Garbarz, Rajzla Sadowska, Erwin Valentin, Lucie Adelsberger; Adolf Rögner, Erwin Bartel, Wilhelm Wohlfahrt, Bruno Baum, Hermann Langbein, Ella Lingens-Reiner, Walter Petzold, Otto Wolken, Marie-Claude Vaillant-Couturier, Jerzy Tabeau, Stanislaw Klodzinski, Stanislaw Chybinski, K.J., Franciszek Gulba, Jolan Holthost, Michal Kula, Seweryna Szmaglewskaya, Ludwig Nagraba, Zenon Rozanski, Josef Koczorowski, Ludwig Rajewski, Roman Taul, Feliks Mylyk, Zygmunt Smuzewski, Jiri Beranowsky, Eugeniusz Motz, Bogdan Glinski, Josef Vacek, Czeslaw Glowaki, Wojciech Barcz, Ludwig Banach, Wieslaw Kielar, Kazimierz Smolen, Henryk Porebski, Hugo Breiden,
Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor, Treblinka (52+)
‘Szlamek’, Mordechai Zurawski, Michal Podchlebnik, Shimon Srebrnik, Jankiel Wiernik, Samuel Rajzman, Elias Rosenberg, Abraham Bomba, Richard Glazar, Samuel Willenberg, Chil Rajchman, Szymon Goldberg, Tanhum Grinberg, Shalom Cohen, Abraham Goldfarb, Oskar Berger, Abe Kon, Moszeks Laks, Maniek Plakiewicz, Stanislaw Borowy, Oscar Strawczynski, Israel Cymlich, Rudolf Reder, Chaim Hirszman, Alexander Pechersky, Leon Feldhendler, Zelda Metz, Esther Rab, Stanislaw Szmajzner, Moshe Bahir, Itzak Lichtman, Eda Litchman, Aizik Rottenberg, Yehuda Lerner, Dov Ber Freiberg, Ursula Stern, Chaim Engel, Hershl Zukerman, Kurt Thomas, Thomas Blatt, Jacob Biskubicz; Stanislaw Kozak, Jan Piwonski, Jan G., Eugeniusz Goch, Edward F, Maria Daniel, Tadeusz M, Michal Kusmierczak, Eustachy Ukrainski, Jan Sulkowski, Jules Schelvis
KZ inmates (3)
Franz Blaha, Margarete Buber-Neumann, Benen Anton,
Other (10)
Zygmunt Klukowski, Paul Roser, Jan Karski, Erich Heubaum, Rozalka Schelewna Schier, Emanuel Ringelbum, Chaim Kaplan, Hersh Smolar, Heinz Rosenberg, Herman Kruk
Deluded Witnesses (2)
Moshe Peer, Irene Zisblatt
Lying Witnesses (2)
Martin Gray, Herman Rosenblatt
False Witnesses (2)
Benjamin Wilkomirski, Misha Defoncesca

To repeat, the sample was generated by looking over 'revisionist' scriptures. The list contains half a dozen witnesses who are automatically rejected by mainstream historians (several of whom were debunked/exposed by mainstream historians), and a few others whose claims are taken with a pinch of salt.

No claim is being made that all of these witnesses gave testimony in the 1940s - the six false/lying/deluded witnesses all made their claims from the 1970s to 2000s. But a high proportion did in fact testify in the 1940s.

This is a demonstrably incomplete sample for all the camps in question, but the challenge for any 'revisionist' would be to discuss groups of witnesses in parallel, as sets or groups, as is normal in assessing samples like these, rather than in series ('one at a time'), as deniers seem to prefer.

Bear in mind that there are over 100 witnesses to Chelmno, the majority dating from the 1940s, and several hundred more Auschwitz witnesses known in published literature/source collections, as Hans Metzner's index shows - http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ce-on.html - which is however still not a complete survey of either the 1940s or subsequent investigations.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:13 pm

nickterry wrote:
1. Soviet Extraordinary Commission (ChGK)
2. Polish Main Commission....(soviet)
3. Polish Military Mission interrogations....(soviet)
4. Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee (esp. ‘Black Book’)......(soviet)
5. Central Jewish Historical Commission in [highlight=#DA8AA2Poland[/highlight] (CZKH)....(soviet)
Without looking at the rest in the interim the Чрезвычайная Государственная Комиссия,
From Wiki
Some of the reports prepared by the Commission are now considered erroneous or outright fabrications. Particularly, the first report of the commission among notable others — published on 24 August 1944 — with the title "Finland demasked". This report purported that Finland had put the whole Soviet population of the occupied territories into concentration camps in East Karelia during the Continuation War of 1941 to 1944, where 40% had died according to Commission.

Another falsification (confirmed the Russian State Duma) concerned the 24 January 1944 communiqué about the Katyn massacre (1940), published under the title "The Truth about Katyn". This lengthy document purported that the mass shootings of the Polish prisoners had been done by the Germans. In fact, the crime was committed by the Soviets on Joseph Stalin's orders. The truth was first revealed by the international Katyn Commission but confirmed by Soviet documents only after they had been declassified and made public by the Government of the Soviet Union in 1990 during the last days of the USSR.


the Instytut Pamięci Narodowej – Komisja Ścigania Zbrodni przeciwko Narodowi Polskiemu relies on information and replaced a similat institution which investigated alleged war crimes of the Reich. Poland was very much a puppet state of theSoviet Unionhaving a unitary Marxist–Leninist communist government based on the 1936 Soviet Constitution. Absolutely nothing the Polish Main Commission has testified can be trusted/
The Еврейский антифашистский комитет
Committee was reformed on Joseph Stalin's order in Kuibyshev in April 1942 with the official support of the Soviet authorities. It was designed to influence international public opinion and organize political and material support for the Soviet fight against Nazi Germany, particularly from the West. wiki

All of these 5 sources are heavily influence by the Soviet regime and none of them can be trusted. I have the same level of confidence or lack of it in all of the othe sources given by the member. It is suspected that the Soviets are the cause of the atrocities if any occurred

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:18 pm

Nessie wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Nessie, on 25 September (http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 44#p665244), just to let readers know, I linked to DasPrussian's list, and montgomery's response was to ask "Which one?" - I'd already given him a name off the list whom he didn't want to discuss, and to accuse me of lying! The link is contained again in one of the posts I linked to above. Montgomery is doing his best to avoid discussing the witnesses he claims to want to know about.
Monty has agreed to show how Erich Mussfeldt lied and exaggerated. I think we should now just wait for his response.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:21 pm

>> Nope, you must be lying again. Be still, the real experts are trying to man up now. You had your chance to be decent and respected enough for me to read your crap.

LOL which doesn't explain your replies about these same witnesses, which you stopped making when your game blew up in your face.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by nickterry » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:37 pm

VFX wrote:
nickterry wrote:
1. Soviet Extraordinary Commission (ChGK)
2. Polish Main Commission....(soviet)
3. Polish Military Mission interrogations....(soviet)
4. Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee (esp. ‘Black Book’)......(soviet)
5. Central Jewish Historical Commission in [highlight=#DA8AA2Poland[/highlight] (CZKH)....(soviet)
Without looking at the rest in the interim the Чрезвычайная Государственная Комиссия,
From Wiki
Some of the reports prepared by the Commission are now considered erroneous or outright fabrications. Particularly, the first report of the commission among notable others — published on 24 August 1944 — with the title "Finland demasked". This report purported that Finland had put the whole Soviet population of the occupied territories into concentration camps in East Karelia during the Continuation War of 1941 to 1944, where 40% had died according to Commission.

Another falsification (confirmed the Russian State Duma) concerned the 24 January 1944 communiqué about the Katyn massacre (1940), published under the title "The Truth about Katyn". This lengthy document purported that the mass shootings of the Polish prisoners had been done by the Germans. In fact, the crime was committed by the Soviets on Joseph Stalin's orders. The truth was first revealed by the international Katyn Commission but confirmed by Soviet documents only after they had been declassified and made public by the Government of the Soviet Union in 1990 during the last days of the USSR.


the Instytut Pamięci Narodowej – Komisja Ścigania Zbrodni przeciwko Narodowi Polskiemu relies on information and replaced a similat institution which investigated alleged war crimes of the Reich. Poland was very much a puppet state of theSoviet Unionhaving a unitary Marxist–Leninist communist government based on the 1936 Soviet Constitution. Absolutely nothing the Polish Main Commission has testified can be trusted/
The Еврейский антифашистский комитет
Committee was reformed on Joseph Stalin's order in Kuibyshev in April 1942 with the official support of the Soviet authorities. It was designed to influence international public opinion and organize political and material support for the Soviet fight against Nazi Germany, particularly from the West. wiki

All of these 5 sources are heavily influence by the Soviet regime and none of them can be trusted. I have the same level of confidence or lack of it in all of the othe sources given by the member. It is suspected that the Soviets are the cause of the atrocities if any occurred
Your distrust and suspicions are irrelevant; a priori dismissal is fallacious - you have to assess the accounts gathered by the commissions in question yourself, cross-reference them with other sources from other provenances, and ultimately assess the totality of the evidence.

Both the Soviet Union and Poland were more complex states than you apparently realise; they had regional authorities and local commands who did the gruntwork of investigating nearly everything - Katyn being the major exception to this rule. Precisely because we know that the Katyn investigation was directed centrally from Moscow, for the Katyn analogy to work, we'd have to find evidence of top-down direction from Moscow to make the same claim for a Nazi atrocity.

But the evidence shows that 1st Ukrainian Front, which overran Auschwitz, reported *back* and *upwards* to Moscow after encountering the site, and that it was the prisoners liberated in the Auschwitz complex who informed the Soviet investigation of what had transpired there. The Extraordinary Commission investigation of Auschwitz includes manuscripts clearly written by former prisoners (e.g. in German) with no Soviet prompting.

Since over 100,000 inmates of the Auschwitz complex had been transferred by the start of 1945 or were evacuated in January 1945, and quite a few survived to be liberated, then very large numbers of eyewitnesses testified to the same things in front of western Allied investigators, or handed in their own accounts of Auschwitz to the Allies.

The simple fact that Auschwitz was being testified to either side of the Iron Curtain emerging in 1945, by prisoners who had demonstrably left the camp prior to liberation as well as those liberated there, destroys any notion that there was a top-down totalitarian conspiracy to invent the story.

The surviving inmate population told their stories to investigators, or wrote them down independently, not the other way around.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by nickterry » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:06 pm

montgomery wrote: Yes, of course Nessie. I don't read Polish. My next suggestion is Javier Cercas, another eye witness. Do the three of you stand behind him now?
this Javier Cercas? A novelist born in 1962? Why on earth would any of us classify this writer as an eyewitness?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javier_Cercas

If you mean Enric Marco, the impostor who Cercas wrote about, but did not expose himself (since someone else did that), then no, nobody here would 'stand behind' him.

But equally, nobody here is going to dismiss out of hand the testimonies of Spanish survivors of Nazi concentration camps because *one* person decided to cash in and make a story up.

That would be as silly as dismissing all personal accounts of the Vietnam War because a series of fraudsters have invented stories of their heroic military service in Vietnam, or dismissing personal accounts of other veterans, because there are military impostors:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_imposter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Valor

Less than perfectly reliable memoirs are also not unknown in other fields, even if the author is eventually accepted as having seen the events they describe:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Sajer

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:14 pm

As a side note - and we've discussed this in the forum here and here - there are examples in the archives of the higher authorities editing and altering testimonies of the kind Nick describes, from prisoners, given to interrogators. The edits/alterations invariably wrote Jews out of the picture - so that whereas an interrogator recorded so and so describing murder of Jews, someone higher up the chain, in accord with the practice and with Soviet conceptions, made an adjustment to say "Soviet citizens" or some such. But we have the edits and thus the raw testimonies.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:53 pm

nickterry wrote:
montgomery wrote: Yes, of course Nessie. I don't read Polish. My next suggestion is Javier Cercas, another eye witness. Do the three of you stand behind him now?
this Javier Cercas? A novelist born in 1962? Why on earth would any of us classify this writer as an eyewitness?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javier_Cercas
Why not? half your references you gave me were dated in the 60's. And the other half still didn't pan out for you doctor?
But equally, nobody here is going to dismiss out of hand the testimonies of Spanish survivors of Nazi concentration camps because *one* person decided to cash in and make a story up.
Produce the Spanish survivors and we'll see if they can be dismissed. We'll see if they blew their testimonies out of the water with stupid exaggerations that were readily accepted back in the 40's Because we all should know, steaming people in the same way as you steam lobsters was readily accepted back then. Same as lampshades were collectors items in German homes! Blllllaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:09 pm

nickterry wrote:The last time a denier tried playing the 'just one witness game' was on JREF, with Saggy. Saggy asked me . . .
Which raises, among other things, the prognosticating prowess displayed by Saggy, who used to post here, such as when he imperiously declared at JREF that
By the time he is finished, Eric Hunt will destroy the phony holohoax.
Speaking of Saggy, did I hear some say 'Sakowicz'?
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:19 pm

nickterry wrote:
Your distrust and suspicions are irrelevant; a priori dismissal is fallacious - you have to assess the accounts gathered by the commissions in question yourself, cross-reference them with other sources from other provenances, and ultimately assess the totality of the evidence.

Both the Soviet Union and Poland were more complex states than you apparently realise; they had regional authorities and local commands who did the gruntwork of investigating nearly everything - Katyn being the major exception to this rule. Precisely because we know that the Katyn investigation was directed centrally from Moscow, for the Katyn analogy to work, we'd have to find evidence of top-down direction from Moscow to make the same claim for a Nazi atrocity.
I am well aware of the functioning of the Soviet Union and the role the NKVD and similar organizations played and continue to play in the art of deception, deceit, inrigue and downright fabrications. Katyn should shine as a beacon of light to their methods of callousness and cruel barbarity. Katyn was only exposed due to the imminent collapse of the Soviet Union otherwise you would be babbling on about that being a Nazi atrocity as well.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by nickterry » Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:25 pm

montgomery wrote:
nickterry wrote:
montgomery wrote: Yes, of course Nessie. I don't read Polish. My next suggestion is Javier Cercas, another eye witness. Do the three of you stand behind him now?
this Javier Cercas? A novelist born in 1962? Why on earth would any of us classify this writer as an eyewitness?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javier_Cercas
Why not? half your references you gave me were dated in the 60's. And the other half still didn't pan out for you doctor?
But equally, nobody here is going to dismiss out of hand the testimonies of Spanish survivors of Nazi concentration camps because *one* person decided to cash in and make a story up.
Produce the Spanish survivors and we'll see if they can be dismissed. We'll see if they blew their testimonies out of the water with stupid exaggerations that were readily accepted back in the 40's Because we all should know, steaming people in the same way as you steam lobsters was readily accepted back then. Same as lampshades were collectors items in German homes! Blllllaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!
It's almost cute how you cannot admit mistaking the biographer for his subject, which is all you did when you mixed up Cercas with Marco. Shame your defensiveness led you to confuse people born in the 1960s with people who lived through the 1940s testifying in the 1960s, which is a bit of a howler.

You still don't get that it's your job to read and assess the testimonies, not anyone else's to spoonfeed you.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by nickterry » Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:26 pm

VFX wrote:
nickterry wrote:
Your distrust and suspicions are irrelevant; a priori dismissal is fallacious - you have to assess the accounts gathered by the commissions in question yourself, cross-reference them with other sources from other provenances, and ultimately assess the totality of the evidence.

Both the Soviet Union and Poland were more complex states than you apparently realise; they had regional authorities and local commands who did the gruntwork of investigating nearly everything - Katyn being the major exception to this rule. Precisely because we know that the Katyn investigation was directed centrally from Moscow, for the Katyn analogy to work, we'd have to find evidence of top-down direction from Moscow to make the same claim for a Nazi atrocity.
I am well aware of the functioning of the Soviet Union and the role the NKVD and similar organizations played and continue to play in the art of deception, deceit, inrigue and downright fabrications. Katyn should shine as a beacon of light to their methods of callousness and cruel barbarity. Katyn was only exposed due to the imminent collapse of the Soviet Union otherwise you would be babbling on about that being a Nazi atrocity as well.
This is non-responsive to what I wrote. So bye-bye.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:45 am

nickterry wrote:
montgomery wrote:
nickterry wrote:
montgomery wrote: Yes, of course Nessie. I don't read Polish. My next suggestion is Javier Cercas, another eye witness. Do the three of you stand behind him now?
this Javier Cercas? A novelist born in 1962? Why on earth would any of us classify this writer as an eyewitness?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javier_Cercas
Why not? half your references you gave me were dated in the 60's. And the other half still didn't pan out for you doctor?
But equally, nobody here is going to dismiss out of hand the testimonies of Spanish survivors of Nazi concentration camps because *one* person decided to cash in and make a story up.
Produce the Spanish survivors and we'll see if they can be dismissed. We'll see if they blew their testimonies out of the water with stupid exaggerations that were readily accepted back in the 40's Because we all should know, steaming people in the same way as you steam lobsters was readily accepted back then. Same as lampshades were collectors items in German homes! Blllllaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!
It's almost cute how you cannot admit mistaking the biographer for his subject, which is all you did when you mixed up Cercas with Marco. Shame your defensiveness led you to confuse people born in the 1960s with people who lived through the 1940s testifying in the 1960s, which is a bit of a howler.

You still don't get that it's your job to read and assess the testimonies, not anyone else's to spoonfeed you.
I have no problem admitting anything dear doctor. I grabbed the link as en example of more phonies and that's about the extent of it. Which phony it refers to is of little importance to an uninformed holocaust skeptic. Don't sweat the small stuff when you have so much more to sweat on not being able to produce that one eyewitness you can stand behind.

You're starting to resort to the same tactics as s.m. already and that's not even taking account of how you resorted to calling me an a-hole because of what appeared to be your frustration of me not agreeing with your dogma.

Your holocaust remains a farce dear doctor, without the eye witness. Is one real eye witness too much to ask? :oops:

Apparently it is because they were ignorant and stupid fools who passed off nonsense back in the 40's and 50's that people laugh about in the 21st. century. Deal with it! I suggest that the lampshades and the lobster steaming 'gas ovens' of the 40's and 50's have now become the gassing Cremeries of the present day. And I"m not going to allow any of you to get away with passing off that kind of pathetic crapola!!

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:07 am

"Cremeries".... was ist? Unless you think churning butter....

Dude, you really sho you speak English?

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Re: The Quest for plz, dear gawd, plz, no Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:08 am

:no:
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:23 am

This has to be the dumbest, emptiest, most useless conceit for a thread since Little Grey Rabbit's 12-Man. It is advanced what-the-{!#%@}.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Monster » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:39 am

montgomery wrote: Listen you H.P.'ers, this is getting a little tiring to say the least. You all know what's required. Produce it or go pull the wings off of your houseflies with s.m's family.
What does HP stand for?
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:41 am

Horse Pucky.
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by VFX » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:43 am

Balmoral95 wrote:"Cremeries".... was ist? Unless you think churning butter....

Dude, you really sho you speak English?
Is that a new claim? Butter is a fat and can be turned into soap, candles: more tasty perhaps than lampshades, shrunken heads and bookcovers. That possibly was explored by the author.

The Story of Little Black Sambo is a children's book written and illustrated by Scottish author Helen Bannerman, and published by Grant Richards in October 1899 as one in a series of small-format books called The Dumpy Books for Children. In that story while the boy was in the tree the tigers ran around so fast that they turned into ghee or clarified butter. Sambo then recovers his clothes and collects the ghee, which his mother uses to make rotis. I am sure Dr Mengele would have read this book and would have considered the possibilities. If this is a claim you have read could you inform us thank you Balmoral95. This one is almost as good as the atomic bomb explosions and ray guns.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:16 am

Claim? Try "question"...

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Darren Wilshak » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:27 am

Here comes the other annoying new bug.
"We are still waiting for anyone to rebut the main theme of the article that the decode in question and the numbers it quoted perfectly match those in the Korherr report.

Until such a rebuttal comes to light and goes through peer review the article stands the test of time. And after 10 years since the article was published both Peter (Witte) and I have moved on to other research projects. "

AHF

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Darren Wilshak » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:30 am

Well they've proven themselves to be incapable of dealing with the totality of evidence, what a surprise!
"We are still waiting for anyone to rebut the main theme of the article that the decode in question and the numbers it quoted perfectly match those in the Korherr report.

Until such a rebuttal comes to light and goes through peer review the article stands the test of time. And after 10 years since the article was published both Peter (Witte) and I have moved on to other research projects. "

AHF

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Darren Wilshak » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:34 am

HP. Isn't it a delicious Brit source you can put upon the sausages for example?
"We are still waiting for anyone to rebut the main theme of the article that the decode in question and the numbers it quoted perfectly match those in the Korherr report.

Until such a rebuttal comes to light and goes through peer review the article stands the test of time. And after 10 years since the article was published both Peter (Witte) and I have moved on to other research projects. "

AHF

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Nessie » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:28 am

montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:Google search turns up this and nothing else.

https://www.commissiononassisteddying.c ... mussfeldt/

More second or third hand crap. Help or just choose another one for me. Or should I choose?

Listen you H.P.'ers, this is getting a little tiring to say the least. You all know what's required. Produce it or go pull the wings off of your houseflies with s.m's family.

A LINK NESSIE, A LINK.
As far as I can ascertain, his evidence was recorded in Polish. So, since you earlier admitted you only speak English and you have clearly not read Mussfeldt's testimony, do you admit you cannot dismiss him as lying and exaggerating?
Yes, of course Nessie. I don't read Polish. My next suggestion is Javier Cercas, another eye witness. Do the three of you stand behind him now?
Can you read his testimony? Is he actually an eye witness (you made that mistake before with Mattogno, not realising he had not listed actual eye witnesses)?
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Nessie » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:32 am

Monster wrote:
montgomery wrote: Listen you H.P.'ers, this is getting a little tiring to say the least. You all know what's required. Produce it or go pull the wings off of your houseflies with s.m's family.
What does HP stand for?
"Holocaust Promoter".
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Nessie » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:46 am

montgomery wrote:..... Is one real eye witness too much to ask? :oops:
The issues are;

1 - your idea of "real" is not the same as is normally accepted as eye witness testimony. In any academic and legal investigation, it is known that eye witnesses make mistakes, exaggerate, underestimate, guess, fill in the gaps, mix up hearsay with what they actually saw, say odd things and even lie about part of what they saw. But that does not mean everything they said can be dismissed. Academic and legal investigations check witnesses by finding other evidence and checking to see what corroborates. Where there is corroboration, there is proof. If all the witnesses said pretty much the same thing, that would be suspect collusion. So, multiple witnesses making mistakes, exaggerating etc etc but who are otherwise corroborated by other evidence constitute proof.

2 - you declare no real eye witness, then admit you have hardly read any of them. You should be honest and list which ones you have read and what you find at fault with each one.

3 - you have repeatedly shown an inability to distinguish between eye witness and hearsay.

Until you have worked your way through what you can find of the lists of witnesses given to you and you have detailed what is wrong with each one, you are just trolling the rest of us by asking for one.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by VFX » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:50 am

Nessie wrote: Until you have worked your way through what you can find of the lists of witnesses given to you and you have detailed what is wrong with each one, you are just trolling the rest of us by asking for one.
All of the witnesses ever given have been found wanting and there is no point in going over the same points as what is elsewhere. He is correct to refute the witnesses. Just choose your best one and not a wall of them which can be looked at an investigated one at a time. He may believe that witness and that is up to him.
It is quite obvious that the witnesses are not believed which is why their are revisionists :). Instead of the fuzziness in most of the testimonies which for the most part are laughable (atomic ray guns, head knockers :lol: :lol: ) which is contoversial, I suspect Monty is asking for irrefutable evidence which will convince him there was indeed Jude sucking in cyanide at the hands of the evil Nazis. No more of this grates and grills nonsense but hard facts. Not pictures of people standing in line getting of trains but people actually walking into a gas chamber, hard chemical evidence. Please do not ask him what happened to the phantom missing people again. I am sure he is vexed about it. :roll:
Last edited by VFX on Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Nessie » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:55 am

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote: Until you have worked your way through what you can find of the lists of witnesses given to you and you have detailed what is wrong with each one, you are just trolling the rest of us by asking for one.
All of the witnesses ever given have been found wanting and there is no point in going over the same points as what is elsewhere. He is correct to refute the witnesses. Just choose your best one and not a wall of them which can be looked at an investigated one at a time. He may believe that witness and that is up to him.
I did give one. The problem is that most of the witnesses do not have easily accessible testimony that has been translated and is online. That is why only a few get discussed and so far deniers have just found excuses to claim they are not credible, often using arguments from ignorance and incredulity.

A witness who has some testimony online is Erich Fuchs, the Nazi who worked on the T4 programme and at Belzec and Sobibor and worked the gas chambers. Please evidence he is lying (you need evidence, opinion is nothing).
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by VFX » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:57 am

He is giving evidence and he is lying. The only gas chamber he worked on was a fumigation chamber for lice no doubt.
According to Fuchs’ account of the first gassing, the victims undressed near the gas chamber and were gassed naked. Stangl on the other hand testified that he was “certain that the bodies were not naked, but were buried with their clothes still on” (Schelvis, p. 101).
Judge Matia and the mainstream historians claim that Jews were murdered in gas chambers at Sobibor, and carbon monoxide was the death-gas. Yet, there are former prisoners who have claimed that chlorine was the death-gas.
Sobibor witness Hella Fellenbaum-Weiss told the story of how Jews on their way to Sobibor were gassed with chlorine: us a dreadful tale: they “The arrival of another convoy distressed me in the same way. It was thought to come from Lvov, but nobody knows for sure. Prisoners were sobbing and told had been gassed on the way with chlorine, but some survived. The bodies of the dead were green and their skin peeled off.” Miriam Novitch, ed., Sobibor: Martyrdom and Revolt (Holocaust Library, 1980), p. 50.. Gassing by Chloring is now quietly discarded while Carbon Monoxide has taken the prominent role. CO is what Fuchs claims.
The chlorine gas, Zyklon B gas, “other un-named” gas, and electrocution stories have clearly been discreetly dumped by the “official history” of the Holocaust—an implicit admittance that they are all false. At this point Judge Matia should ask himself this question: since the stories of Jews being murdered with electricity, chlorine, Zyklon B and other un-named gases at Sobibor are false, isn’t it also possible that the “official truth” that Jews were murdered with carbon monoxide is also false? CODOH
Erich Fuchs, who supposedly installed the gassing engine and also participated in the first trial gassings, implied in 1963 that the chambers were housed in “a concrete structure.” The alleged Gas Chambers were changed to that of wood.
Revisionist historian Thomas Kues sums up the dilemma: “While, on the one hand, Sobibor’s first commandant, Franz Stangl, testified that the first gas chambers were housed in a brick building, ‘Gasmeister’ Erich Bauer on the other hand penned a ‘confession’ which described the same building as made of wood. To confuse things further, former SS-Unterscharführer Erich Fuchs stated in his 1963 testimony that the first Sobibor gas chambers were in a ‘concrete structure.’” CODOH
With such divergent testimony they must all be discounted. Fuchs has no credibility

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Nessie » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:41 am

VFX wrote:He is giving evidence and he is lying. The only gas chamber he worked on was a fumigation chamber for lice no doubt.
You need to produce evidence of that or admit you have lied and made up a new narrative.
According to Fuchs’ account of the first gassing, the victims undressed near the gas chamber and were gassed naked. Stangl on the other hand testified that he was “certain that the bodies were not naked, but were buried with their clothes still on” (Schelvis, p. 101).
Judge Matia and the mainstream historians claim that Jews were murdered in gas chambers at Sobibor, and carbon monoxide was the death-gas. Yet, there are former prisoners who have claimed that chlorine was the death-gas.
Sobibor witness Hella Fellenbaum-Weiss told the story of how Jews on their way to Sobibor were gassed with chlorine: us a dreadful tale: they “The arrival of another convoy distressed me in the same way. It was thought to come from Lvov, but nobody knows for sure. Prisoners were sobbing and told had been gassed on the way with chlorine, but some survived. The bodies of the dead were green and their skin peeled off.” Miriam Novitch, ed., Sobibor: Martyrdom and Revolt (Holocaust Library, 1980), p. 50..
She provides hearsay evidence and did not witness a gassing.
Gassing by Chloring is now quietly discarded while Carbon Monoxide has taken the prominent role. CO is what Fuchs claims.
The chlorine gas, Zyklon B gas, “other un-named” gas, and electrocution stories have clearly been discreetly dumped by the “official history” of the Holocaust—an implicit admittance that they are all false. At this point Judge Matia should ask himself this question: since the stories of Jews being murdered with electricity, chlorine, Zyklon B and other un-named gases at Sobibor are false, isn’t it also possible that the “official truth” that Jews were murdered with carbon monoxide is also false? CODOH
Stop mixing up hearsay (chlorine) and direct eye witness (CO) evidence and treating it as if it is the same.
Erich Fuchs, who supposedly installed the gassing engine and also participated in the first trial gassings, implied in 1963 that the chambers were housed in “a concrete structure.” The alleged Gas Chambers were changed to that of wood.
Revisionist historian Thomas Kues sums up the dilemma: “While, on the one hand, Sobibor’s first commandant, Franz Stangl, testified that the first gas chambers were housed in a brick building, ‘Gasmeister’ Erich Bauer on the other hand penned a ‘confession’ which described the same building as made of wood. To confuse things further, former SS-Unterscharführer Erich Fuchs stated in his 1963 testimony that the first Sobibor gas chambers were in a ‘concrete structure.’” CODOH
With such divergent testimony they must all be discounted. Fuchs has no credibility
You need to produce all their testimony so that an actual comparison can be made. Note that one description is for the "first Sobibor gas chambers" implying there were others. Has Kues just mixed up gas chambers and he thought the different witnesses were describing the same building? Why do you refuse to accept witnesses can make mistakes without lying?

Your unevidenced assertion, your inability and then refusal to differentiate between hearsay and direct evidence and your demand that all witness testimony is spot on accurate with no errors, even 20 years after the event, means you have no credibility and your opinion on the evidence can be dismissed.
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