The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:21 pm

VFX wrote:
Image
NAZIS
STEAMED
JEWS
TO DEATH
LONDON
. — From two
exiled Governments have
come reports of new
massacres among their
people.
THE semi-official Polish Govern-
ment publication "Liberty"
gave horrifying details of a Ger-
man concentration camp in the vil
lage of Treblinka, between War-
saw and Bialystok. Since March,
1942, the village, it stated, "has be-
come the execution ground for
Jews from the whole of Poland
and other countries in Europe."
Added "Liberty": — "Near a rail
siding at the west end of the camp
is a path running through the
forest to a large brick building. In
side the house is a corridor 10 ft.
wide, on each side of which are
five cells, with neither doors nor
windows.
Cunning Device
"In the wall of each is a trap-
door, and running along the cells
are pipes, through which steam
can be forced at a high pressure.
This is House of Death Number
Two.
"At right angles to it is House of
Death Number One, also a brick
building, consisting of three large
cells and a boilerhouse.
"When the death steam is turned
on, the doors and trapdoors in the
cells are hermetically sealed.
"Nearby is the gravediggers'
quarters, and the quarters of 40
warders, armed with tommy-guns.
Jewish gravediggers are man-
handled and beaten with whips,
seldom live longer than a fortnight.
"The Houses of Death are for
cases of extreme punishment; other
victims are merely lined up on the
edge of graves and shot through
the back of the head, so that they
fall into the graves.
"On one single day 500 Jews
were thus executed."
Great work! But I'm sure you have dozens of examples such as this. When stories such as this one are fabricated, it's an indication to me that they had no real and honest stories to relate. It puts us in a position in which we can legitimately ask why they needed to resort to this kind of obvious balderdash and poppycock?

Suffice to say, the people who made up such whoppers were likely not intelligent enough to understand they were making up crap that couldn't continue to face the light of day.

How sad that these H.P.'ers can't be honest enough with themselves to start to question the whole legend. We must accept only the truth and then condemn any of them that can be caught in lies. It's really become sickeningly pathetic!

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:28 pm

Great work? LOL, news stories like those are well known. If great work for you is rediscovering the known, go for it. There is lots of known material for you guys to rediscover and congratulate yourselves on. Since most of us here are well aware of this stuff, you'll excuse us for laughing at your misadventures.

So, montgomery, how long are you going to stall about giving Nick an answer to what he asked you, "Please identify the direct-eyewitness accounts to . . . 'the lobster steaming 'gas ovens' of the 40's and 50's' to which you are referring"?
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:33 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
montgomery wrote:Can you add anything to the story or are you just going to follow along with your finger?
I'm waiting for your answer to Nick's question on steam - and asking you some of my own about Winer. These two items should be fun.
Who is Winer and what is Nick's question on steam? Should I even get into talking about steam now that it's become such a joke?

Bear with me, as I plod along with trying to absorb all the info being thrown at me. If you don't then you'll probably find me ignoring a lot of it. Let's deal with your point on Winer for noe and I'll try to get back to Doctor Nick later.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Darren Wilshak » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:34 pm

Some original research right there from the Revisionist clown school of doing History, then?
Do they owe us a living?
Of course they do, of course they do.
Do they owe us a living?
Of course they do, of course they do.
Do they owe us a living?
ev corse they xxxxxxx do.

Steve Ignorant and Penny Rimbaud.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:34 pm

montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
montgomery wrote:Can you add anything to the story or are you just going to follow along with your finger?
I'm waiting for your answer to Nick's question on steam - and asking you some of my own about Winer. These two items should be fun.
Who is Winer and what is Nick's question on steam? Should I even get into talking about steam now that it's become such a joke?
Very poor dodging.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:36 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Great work? LOL, news stories like those are well known. If great work for you is rediscovering the known, go for it. There is lots of known material for you guys to rediscover and congratulate yourselves on. Since most of us here are well aware of this stuff, you'll excuse us for laughing at your misadventures.

So, montgomery, how long are you going to stall about giving Nick an answer to what he asked you, "Please identify the direct-eyewitness accounts to . . . 'the lobster steaming 'gas ovens' of the 40's and 50's' to which you are referring"?
Is your point that the lobster steaming stories didn't originate in the 40's or the 50's?

If so then we can call them stories that are just more swiss cheeses?

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:37 pm

montgomery wrote:Bear with me, as I plod along with trying to absorb all the info being thrown at me. If you don't then you'll probably find me ignoring a lot of it. Let's deal with your point on Winer for noe and I'll try to get back to Doctor Nick later.
Frankly, no. I don't have to bear with you are you squirm and wriggle.

I asked you a simply question that doesn't require any digging:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Question for montgomery: does what Rylee White posted at Prezi match the archival version of Winer's testimony?

The reason I ask is that what's posted at Prezi doesn't match the source which White gives (http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... aries.html)? (the HEART link is also to the English version which Nick linked to, not what White posted at Prezi)
What's the answer?
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:38 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
montgomery wrote:Can you add anything to the story or are you just going to follow along with your finger?
I'm waiting for your answer to Nick's question on steam - and asking you some of my own about Winer. These two items should be fun.
Who is Winer and what is Nick's question on steam? Should I even get into talking about steam now that it's become such a joke?
Very poor dodging.
I don't know what you think I'm dodging but I'm going to give you a chance to say. And if you keep on spamming off topic then I'm going to have to ignore you as a destraction from Doc Terry's evidence. So make it quick and concise if you want to play a limited part in this discussion.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:40 pm

montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Great work? LOL, news stories like those are well known. If great work for you is rediscovering the known, go for it. There is lots of known material for you guys to rediscover and congratulate yourselves on. Since most of us here are well aware of this stuff, you'll excuse us for laughing at your misadventures.

So, montgomery, how long are you going to stall about giving Nick an answer to what he asked you, "Please identify the direct-eyewitness accounts to . . . 'the lobster steaming 'gas ovens' of the 40's and 50's' to which you are referring"?
Is your point that the lobster steaming stories didn't originate in the 40's or the 50's?
No, of course not. Anyone possessing even the barest familiarity with this material knows this.
montgomery wrote:If so then we can call them stories that are just more swiss cheeses?
More poor trolling.

For guys so attached to "lobster steaming," you and VFX reveal complete ignorance of the topic.

So the revisionist "alternative" method you keep suggesting goes like this - ignore sources, stay away from archives, refuse to address research conclusions, and go nah-nah-nah to counter-arguments?
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:42 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
montgomery wrote:Bear with me, as I plod along with trying to absorb all the info being thrown at me. If you don't then you'll probably find me ignoring a lot of it. Let's deal with your point on Winer for noe and I'll try to get back to Doctor Nick later.
Frankly, no. I don't have to bear with you are you squirm and wriggle.

I asked you a simply question that doesn't require any digging:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Question for montgomery: does what Rylee White posted at Prezi match the archival version of Winer's testimony?

The reason I ask is that what's posted at Prezi doesn't match the source which White gives (http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... aries.html)? (the HEART link is also to the English version which Nick linked to, not what White posted at Prezi)
What's the answer?
I think you've answered your own question. If so then I won't disagree with your answer because frankly, right now I'm too involved with other matters to understand what you're on about. So let's just say I agree with your answer. Sheesh!

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:42 pm

montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
montgomery wrote:Can you add anything to the story or are you just going to follow along with your finger?
I'm waiting for your answer to Nick's question on steam - and asking you some of my own about Winer. These two items should be fun.
Who is Winer and what is Nick's question on steam? Should I even get into talking about steam now that it's become such a joke?
Very poor dodging.
I don't know what you think I'm dodging but I'm going to give you a chance to say. And if you keep on spamming off topic then I'm going to have to ignore you as a destraction from Doc Terry's evidence. So make it quick and concise if you want to play a limited part in this discussion.
I don't give a crap what you do.

But others will know that you're dodging two simple requests: to please identify the direct-eyewitness accounts to . . . 'the lobster steaming 'gas ovens' of the 40's and 50's' to which you are referring" and to tell us whether you believe that what Rylee White posted at Prezi matches the archival version of Winer's testimony.

Simple.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:44 pm

montgomery wrote:I think you've answered your own question. If so then I won't disagree with your answer because frankly, right now I'm too involved with other matters to understand what you're on about. So let's just say I agree with your answer. Sheesh!
Coward.

Let's just say for now that you threw in a dubious source instead of using what Nick linked to, the source you threw in doesn't match the one Nick linked to, and at least one of your objections to the testimony disappears when you don't play bait and switch.

Oh, and you have no idea what's in the archives.

Does that answer it for you?
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:46 pm

Question for the forum: Why, being so ignorant of the sources that they can't answer Nick's simple request for the names of "lobster steaming" eyewitnesses, do these two clowns post so much about so-called Treblinka steam chambers?
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:46 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Great work? LOL, news stories like those are well known. If great work for you is rediscovering the known, go for it. There is lots of known material for you guys to rediscover and congratulate yourselves on. Since most of us here are well aware of this stuff, you'll excuse us for laughing at your misadventures.

So, montgomery, how long are you going to stall about giving Nick an answer to what he asked you, "Please identify the direct-eyewitness accounts to . . . 'the lobster steaming 'gas ovens' of the 40's and 50's' to which you are referring"?
Is your point that the lobster steaming stories didn't originate in the 40's or the 50's?
No, of course not. Anyone possessing even the barest familiarity with this material knows this.
montgomery wrote:If so then we can call them stories that are just more swiss cheeses?
More poor trolling.

For guys so attached to "lobster steaming," you and VFX reveal complete ignorance of the topic.

So the revisionist "alternative" method you keep suggesting goes like this - ignore sources, stay away from archives, refuse to address research conclusions, and go nah-nah-nah to counter-arguments?
VFX and I aren't promoting any of the lobster stories and so regardless of when they were invented, they're bogus. The reason why I relate to them is because they are just more examples of bogus evidence. And also fwiw, the bogus stories far outweigh the true stories. I suspect that VFX feels about the same on this. And as far as the true stories go, where are they? I've yet to be able to take one true story and analyze it without finding as many holes in it as our swiss cheese.

If you don't want to talk about lobster steaming then use up more cyberspace with the real thing.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:48 pm

montgomery wrote:VFX and I aren't promoting any of the lobster stories and so regardless of when they were invented, they're bogus. The reason why I relate to them is because they are just more examples of bogus evidence. And also fwiw, the bogus stories far outweigh the true stories. I suspect that VFX feels about the same on this. And as far as the true stories go, where are they? I've yet to be able to take one true story and analyze it without finding as many holes in it as our swiss cheese.
Actually, bogus is the wrong word here.
montgomery wrote:If you don't want to talk about lobster steaming then use up more cyberspace with the real thing.
I see that you still can't or won't answer Nick's request. You must know nothing about the topic. Fair enough. Proceed to make a further fool of yourself with Winer.

It is nice to hear you won't be harping on lobsters further, though; it's maybe beneath even you.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:51 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Question for the forum: Why, being so ignorant of the sources that they can't answer Nick's simple request for the names of "lobster steaming" eyewitnesses, do these two clowns post so much about so-called Treblinka steam chambers?
Answer for the forum from me: I have no idea who made up the lobster steaming story. I suppose it was taken as the truth when it was published in a paper closer to the time in which it supposedly happened?

I guess we could do a lot of background research to find out who made up such whoppers but what would be the point.

My only point is that the story existed and it's certainly a claim being made for lack of a truthful claim. We can't just sweep all this kind of crap under the carpet. It's all part of the holocaust stories.

And fwiw, there are probably lots of idiots still buying it hook, line, and sinker.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:54 pm

S.M., we're not making any progress so I think I'll just wait for Doc Nick to come back and get his questions asked. And of course, I'll have to talk to VFX for more info on doc Nick's subject with all the names too. Later sweet cheeks. And don't forget to say i'm dodging some question?

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:57 pm

The research has been done, you’ve actually been provided the background a half dozen times or so, which means you should know how to evaluate Treblinka testimonies and that after the early weeks of the camp’s existence nearly every witness who addressed the method of murder said it was by gas.

It is nice that you so blithely repeated what you now freely admit you are clueless about. And that you’ve demonstrated you have no interest in learning about.

Anyone else in your shoes, but having even an ounce of self respect, would have shut up about this long ago.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:59 pm

montgomery wrote:S.M., we're not making any progress so I think I'll just wait for Doc Nick to come back and get his questions asked. And of course, I'll have to talk to VFX for more info on doc Nick's subject with all the names too. Later sweet cheeks. And don't forget to say i'm dodging some question?
Well I had to answer the question I asked you about your bait and switch on Winer and I finally got to admit your ignorance about your pet “lobster” topic, so we’re good now.

If VFX is the reinforcements, you’re in worse trouble than everyone thought. Later ...
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Hans » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:07 pm

montgomery wrote:
nickterry wrote:
montgomery wrote: I have no problem admitting anything dear doctor. I grabbed the link as en example of more phonies and that's about the extent of it. Which phony it refers to is of little importance to an uninformed holocaust skeptic. Don't sweat the small stuff when you have so much more to sweat on not being able to produce that one eyewitness you can stand behind.
1. I've given you more than 200 specific names, broken down by location and perspective. They all happen to be discussed in 'revisionist' literature, so you have your cribs. Working out which testimonies are translated into English and put online as a whole is your job, if you want to see the whole testimony.
2. I’ve also given you an index of evidence to Auschwitz which includes identifying some of the testimonies you’re asking for AS WELL AS THE CONTEMPORARY DOCUMENTS. The documents can’t be forgotten here. Whichever site or camp interests you, someone will bring up the relevant documents.
3. I've given you a link to a comprehensive list of open-access online archives several times. Working out how to locate sources on these archives is also your job. The open-access archives list even has a section for testimonies/memoirs – several examples are from the 1940s.
4. I've indicated to you no fewer than 70 types of source-gathering that went on in the 1940s, during and after the war, which collected eyewitness accounts, 17 before liberation and 53 after liberation. Quite a few of these are online and listed in the open-access online archives guide. The others should be remembered if you want to discuss a specific site, like Auschwitz, or Chelmno.
5. I’ve given you more than 400 titles of history books which routinely use these testimonies – several of which are online (I also indicated those titles in the book discussion sticky). They also discuss the investigations, commissions and other source-gathering formats or types of sources. Ignorance of context is no excuse in a serious discussion.
You're starting to resort to the same tactics as s.m. already and that's not even taking account of how you resorted to calling me an a-hole because of what appeared to be your frustration of me not agreeing with your dogma.
I've debated with Holocaust deniers on and off for twelve years on the internet - I must have crossed paths with hundreds of deniers, 'revisionists', self-styled skeptics and unique snowflakes over that time. If I have called any of them rude names, it's not because they disagree with me, but because of their behaviour.
Your holocaust remains a farce dear doctor, without the eye witness. Is one real eye witness too much to ask? :oops:
There are somewhere between 100 and 200,000 eyewitness testimonies to different aspects of the Holocaust; I know of more than 2,000 published memoirs alone. Your request for one witness is meaningless until you specify which site, camp or region you want to discuss.

But since you're apparently incapable of making your mind up what you want to discuss, let's start with the very first lengthy eyewitness account to an extermination camp where Jews were murdered with gas, the early 1942 testimony of Szlama Winer aka Szlamek Bajler (he used pseudonyms while in hiding) regarding the extermination camp of Chelmno
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... aries.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szlama_Ber_Winer

We can then bring up other testimonies from 1942, from 1945 and from later on, and also discuss the contemporary documents, which are rather copious for Chelmno. Since this was the very first extermination camp set up by the Nazis, then there's no better starting-point. It's kind of a 'do not pass go' scenario here for you.
Apparently it is because they were ignorant and stupid fools who passed off nonsense back in the 40's and 50's that people laugh about in the 21st. century. Deal with it! I suggest that the lampshades and the lobster steaming 'gas ovens' of the 40's and 50's have now become the gassing Cremeries of the present day. And I"m not going to allow any of you to get away with passing off that kind of pathetic crapola!!
Please identify the direct-eyewitness accounts to "lampshades and the lobster steaming 'gas ovens' of the 40's and 50's" to which you are referring. You made such a fuss over other people identifying witnesses, so you should be able to demonstrate your superior knowledge here and give specific details of who said this. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

'Lampshades' never had anything to do with the extermination of European Jews, so even if you could make your case there, it would be not very relevant to the Jewish Holocaust. They are associated with non-Jewish victims in the Buchenwald main camp only, and there were nearly twenty such main camps, along with over 1,000 sub-camps, many quite large. Protip: blethering on about lampshades as if this was a major feature of the Jewish Holocaust makes you look exceedingly ill-informed.
Thanks doc Terry for the reference. I searched and found my own which appears to be the same guy because some of the details match.

https://prezi.com/rycjhul56ec6/szlamek-bajler-diaries/ And so a few minor problems with this story:

I don't buy all the aliases and find that suspect. He's likely told stories under one of the other aliases.
The story as related in this link has the guy jumping to freedom and then into being captured somehow?
January 20, 1942 wasn't a Monday as claimed.
Two men can't carry 14 pickaxes and shovels, especially in their condition.
1. The source says 19 January 1942, which was indeed a monday:

Image

(see also English translation in Pawlicka-Nowak, Chelmno witnesses Speak, p. 101 - 118)

2. The two men carrying the tools are described as "civilians" not as Jewish prisoners , and they were actually well-fed Polish prisoners, who were collaborating with the Nazis.

3. The source does not say that the two men carried all the tools at once.

Lessons learned for montgomery:

1. consult primary sources or a decent academic secondary source instead of internet slide shows.

2. make yourself familiar with the historical context.

3. think before you type.
Last edited by Hans on Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:07 pm

Holy moly! Sheesher is back. :-P
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:27 pm

Hans wrote:
montgomery wrote:
nickterry wrote:
montgomery wrote: I have no problem admitting anything dear doctor. I grabbed the link as en example of more phonies and that's about the extent of it. Which phony it refers to is of little importance to an uninformed holocaust skeptic. Don't sweat the small stuff when you have so much more to sweat on not being able to produce that one eyewitness you can stand behind.
1. I've given you more than 200 specific names, broken down by location and perspective. They all happen to be discussed in 'revisionist' literature, so you have your cribs. Working out which testimonies are translated into English and put online as a whole is your job, if you want to see the whole testimony.
2. I’ve also given you an index of evidence to Auschwitz which includes identifying some of the testimonies you’re asking for AS WELL AS THE CONTEMPORARY DOCUMENTS. The documents can’t be forgotten here. Whichever site or camp interests you, someone will bring up the relevant documents.
3. I've given you a link to a comprehensive list of open-access online archives several times. Working out how to locate sources on these archives is also your job. The open-access archives list even has a section for testimonies/memoirs – several examples are from the 1940s.
4. I've indicated to you no fewer than 70 types of source-gathering that went on in the 1940s, during and after the war, which collected eyewitness accounts, 17 before liberation and 53 after liberation. Quite a few of these are online and listed in the open-access online archives guide. The others should be remembered if you want to discuss a specific site, like Auschwitz, or Chelmno.
5. I’ve given you more than 400 titles of history books which routinely use these testimonies – several of which are online (I also indicated those titles in the book discussion sticky). They also discuss the investigations, commissions and other source-gathering formats or types of sources. Ignorance of context is no excuse in a serious discussion.
You're starting to resort to the same tactics as s.m. already and that's not even taking account of how you resorted to calling me an a-hole because of what appeared to be your frustration of me not agreeing with your dogma.
I've debated with Holocaust deniers on and off for twelve years on the internet - I must have crossed paths with hundreds of deniers, 'revisionists', self-styled skeptics and unique snowflakes over that time. If I have called any of them rude names, it's not because they disagree with me, but because of their behaviour.
Your holocaust remains a farce dear doctor, without the eye witness. Is one real eye witness too much to ask? :oops:
There are somewhere between 100 and 200,000 eyewitness testimonies to different aspects of the Holocaust; I know of more than 2,000 published memoirs alone. Your request for one witness is meaningless until you specify which site, camp or region you want to discuss.

But since you're apparently incapable of making your mind up what you want to discuss, let's start with the very first lengthy eyewitness account to an extermination camp where Jews were murdered with gas, the early 1942 testimony of Szlama Winer aka Szlamek Bajler (he used pseudonyms while in hiding) regarding the extermination camp of Chelmno
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... aries.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szlama_Ber_Winer

We can then bring up other testimonies from 1942, from 1945 and from later on, and also discuss the contemporary documents, which are rather copious for Chelmno. Since this was the very first extermination camp set up by the Nazis, then there's no better starting-point. It's kind of a 'do not pass go' scenario here for you.
Apparently it is because they were ignorant and stupid fools who passed off nonsense back in the 40's and 50's that people laugh about in the 21st. century. Deal with it! I suggest that the lampshades and the lobster steaming 'gas ovens' of the 40's and 50's have now become the gassing Cremeries of the present day. And I"m not going to allow any of you to get away with passing off that kind of pathetic crapola!!
Please identify the direct-eyewitness accounts to "lampshades and the lobster steaming 'gas ovens' of the 40's and 50's" to which you are referring. You made such a fuss over other people identifying witnesses, so you should be able to demonstrate your superior knowledge here and give specific details of who said this. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

'Lampshades' never had anything to do with the extermination of European Jews, so even if you could make your case there, it would be not very relevant to the Jewish Holocaust. They are associated with non-Jewish victims in the Buchenwald main camp only, and there were nearly twenty such main camps, along with over 1,000 sub-camps, many quite large. Protip: blethering on about lampshades as if this was a major feature of the Jewish Holocaust makes you look exceedingly ill-informed.
Thanks doc Terry for the reference. I searched and found my own which appears to be the same guy because some of the details match.

https://prezi.com/rycjhul56ec6/szlamek-bajler-diaries/ And so a few minor problems with this story:

I don't buy all the aliases and find that suspect. He's likely told stories under one of the other aliases.
The story as related in this link has the guy jumping to freedom and then into being captured somehow?
January 20, 1942 wasn't a Monday as claimed.
Two men can't carry 14 pickaxes and shovels, especially in their condition.
1. The source says 19 January 1942, which was indeed a monday:

Image

(see also English translation in Pawlicka-Nowak, Chelmno witnesses Speak, p. 101 - 118)

2. The two men carrying the tools are described as "civilians" not as Jewish prisoners , and they were actually well-fed Polish prisoners, who were collaborating with the Nazis.

3. The source does not say that the two men carried all the tools at once.

Lessons learned for montgomery:

1. consult primary sources or a decent academic secondary source instead of internet slide shows.

2. make yourself familiar with the historical context.

3. think before you type.
And if he’d just looked at Nick’s link he wouldn’t have made the date gaffe. For some reason he felt the need to “improve” on Nick’s link and then critique his dubious improvement. Go figure.

What Hans describes is why we can state with confidence what happened (and also be clear about what’s not known) as opposed to montgomery’s hunches, feelings and pet theories based on something or other he vaguely recalls having heard once ...

In the case of Treblinka I know the first sources mentioning steam and I know why they most likely did so, I know most of the steps that led to the “steam” references in the media, and I know what the ovewhelming majority of the witnesses said and why the “steam” notion was transient and not picked up on at the IMT. VFX can only make up nonsense about the Polish underground and Montgomery is finally reduced to saying, Aw shucks I dunno, somebody must’ve said it.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Nessie » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:36 pm

VFX wrote:
You need to produce all their testimony so that an actual comparison can be made. Note that one description is for the "first Sobibor gas chambers" implying there were others.
People involved in the direct technical aspects of a mass execution would not forget the minute details any more than an old panel beater would forget if he dealt with steel or fibre glass bodies in the past.
The Nazis and many others wanted to forget what had happened and put it behind them.
This is a forum to discuss not produce a wall of text: people can read that themselves. Fuchs observed nothing and neither did the rest.
He said he worked the gas chambers.
The testimony is as fake as the Chlorine testimony. I can understand say a traffic policeman making a mistake over time if it was a left or right tail light that was damaged in a defended hearing some months later after a DIC incident; this happens in seconds. These people were involved in the same operation allegedly day after day and can remember the exact details just I can remember every house I have lived in since 5 years old.
What you are doing is comparing yourself to someone who visited the house occasionally, or only heard about it.
The direct testimony here is pure and simply lying for one reason or another. I hope the judges were not as foolish as the investigating officers in Scotland if that is the standard of evidence accepted. No wonder why they need two cops in a patrol car to corroborate the evidence. Pathetic.
Your assertions about lying are unevidenced. You need to evidence someone is lying and you are unable to.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:40 pm

Oh and what’s more I know and have shown how revisionists misuse the early Treblinka witnesses and have even falsified the history.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Nessie » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:42 pm

VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Steam was not used at Treblinka for murder and withering about saunas won’t help your case, your difficulty naming any witnesses and your oblivious to what’s in archives.

Please, as you have shown your ignorance of the sources about this, do let others have a go.
I have all of the documents I need. It was the Polish Underground set up by the Government in exile. They tried similar propaganda in Auschwitz. Anything else is pure fabrication by you.
Amazing, VFX still does not understand the difference between hearsay and eye witness evidence.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Nessie » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:47 pm

montgomery wrote:......
Thanks doc Terry for the reference. I searched and found my own which appears to be the same guy because some of the details match.

https://prezi.com/rycjhul56ec6/szlamek-bajler-diaries/ And so a few minor problems with this story:

I don't buy all the aliases and find that suspect.
Argument from incredulity.
He's likely told stories under one of the other aliases.
Unevidenced assertion.
The story as related in this link has the guy jumping to freedom and then into being captured somehow?
January 20, 1942 wasn't a Monday as claimed.
It was a Tuesday, nit picking.
Two men can't carry 14 pickaxes and shovels, especially in their condition.
Argument from incredulity
I'll check it out further but you've handed me a difficult one because of all the aliases. On purpose?
Delaying tactics.
Right now, it's already not lookin too good.
Poisoning the well.
edit: Then I found this: The Belzec Death Camp: History, Biographies, Remembrance
https://books.google.ca/books?isbn=3838268261
Chris Webb - 2016 - ‎History
His second gransdon, Dr. Leszek Allerhand, published the diary in Poland in 2003, under the title Notes from ... Deported to Belzec together with Szlamek Bajler.

I'm pretty confident in calling this just another latter day fake!
Unevidenced assertion.
Do you have another one?
You have failed to deal with this witness to a satisfactory standard. You need to evidence he is lying. Got any?
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:01 pm

Nessie - as to the date discrepancy that was introduced by the dubious website which Montgomery linked to; the HEART version, which Nick linked to, and, as Hans confirmed, the archival source do not contain this discrepancy. There’s not even a trivial issue with the testimony on this score. Montgomery here simply showed us how not to study historical events.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by VFX » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:14 pm

montgomery wrote:
I guess we could do a lot of background research to find out who made up such whoppers but what would be the point.

My only point is that the story existed and it's certainly a claim being made for lack of a truthful claim. We can't just sweep all this kind of crap under the carpet. It's all part of the holocaust stories.

And fwiw, there are probably lots of idiots still buying it hook, line, and sinker.
The background research is well done but there is no point posting it as that is unwarrented attention to detail. We are trying to look at the larger picture of the holocaust myth, the propaganda and most importantly the Soviet influence.
The Lobster story would be hilarious in its own right, but it was believed by the public and an example of "fake news", just as governments today are doing in Syria (Douma fake gas attack).
It was believed enough to have Hans Frank indicted (charge 6) at the original Nuremberg MT. The Lobstering was also endorsed by International Jude.
At the Nuremberg trials, he was found guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity and was executed.. No doubt the Lobstering would have influenced the Judges.
Dr Fischer was the District Governor of Warsaw district stated in his testimony that Polish Jews were killed in large numbers. These massacres were performed by means of steam
The domuments continue to mentions steam, gas and electrocution on a large scale
There is the mention of chambers next to boiler rooms and water supplies.
The mass graves were dug out by machines not spades or shovels by people. Dr Cyprian
finally states after mentioning the sadistic tendencies of SS Captain Sauer whose job was to torment and torture prisoners without mercy:
Death in the Steam Chambers must almost have come as a welcome relief

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Nessie » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:49 pm

The "lobster story" is a denier invention. No witness said people were steamed like lobster. It is fake news to claim there were reports at the time of people steamed like lobsters.

What a few reports and some non witnesses said was that it was thought the gas used was steam. That a gas was used is accurate and not knowing what type of gas is an understandable error by those who were not actually there and saw what was happening in detail.

We have a denier who not only does not show any understanding of the difference between hearsay and eye witness evidence, but he also does not know that amongst eye witnesses, the level of knowledge varies significantly. A camp guard who worked the watch towers, or a Sonderkommando who sorted property, has far less knowledge of gassings than a Nazi who ran the engines which produced the gas or a Sonderkommando who emptied bodies from the chambers.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:52 pm

VFX wrote:
montgomery wrote:
I guess we could do a lot of background research to find out who made up such whoppers but what would be the point.

My only point is that the story existed and it's certainly a claim being made for lack of a truthful claim. We can't just sweep all this kind of crap under the carpet. It's all part of the holocaust stories.

And fwiw, there are probably lots of idiots still buying it hook, line, and sinker.
The background research is well done but there is no point posting it as that is unwarrented attention to detail. We are trying to look at the larger picture of the holocaust myth, the propaganda and most importantly the Soviet influence.
The Lobster story would be hilarious in its own right, but it was believed by the public and an example of "fake news", just as governments today are doing in Syria (Douma fake gas attack).
It was believed enough to have Hans Frank indicted (charge 6) at the original Nuremberg MT. The Lobstering was also endorsed by International Jude.
At the Nuremberg trials, he was found guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity and was executed.. No doubt the Lobstering would have influenced the Judges.
Dr Fischer was the District Governor of Warsaw district stated in his testimony that Polish Jews were killed in large numbers. These massacres were performed by means of steam
The domuments continue to mentions steam, gas and electrocution on a large scale
There is the mention of chambers next to boiler rooms and water supplies.
The mass graves were dug out by machines not spades or shovels by people. Dr Cyprian
finally states after mentioning the sadistic tendencies of SS Captain Sauer whose job was to torment and torture prisoners without mercy:
Death in the Steam Chambers must almost have come as a welcome relief
Thank you VFX! And of course the lobster pop type steaming, which as a an aside makes my mouth water, can't be shelved when innocents died because of such cruel and rude accusations. Shame on the H.P.'ers.

And then too ,if mass graves were to be dug for 180-200 people at a time, they would have done it with a machine. Shame on doc Terry for that gobbledegook!

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:56 pm

Nessie wrote:The "lobster story" is a denier invention. No witness said people were steamed like lobster. It is fake news to claim there were reports at the time of people steamed like lobsters.

What a few reports and some non witnesses said was that it was thought the gas used was steam. That a gas was used is accurate and not knowing what type of gas is an understandable error by those who were not actually there and saw what was happening in detail.

We have a denier who not only does not show any understanding of the difference between hearsay and eye witness evidence, but he also does not know that amongst eye witnesses, the level of knowledge varies significantly. A camp guard who worked the watch towers, or a Sonderkommando who sorted property, has far less knowledge of gassings than a Nazi who ran the engines which produced the gas or a Sonderkommando who emptied bodies from the chambers.
Give it up Nessie, you're stooping to obvious lies now. No denier would have had info that would be used to boost the holocaust claims put in a newspaper.

I suggest that you take stock of all that you have come to believe, even though it's going to be a taking stock of most of your life. Do it now and live the rest of your life in accepting the truth of no holocaust ever happening.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:10 pm

VFX wrote:Dr Fischer was the District Governor of Warsaw district stated in his testimony that Polish Jews were killed in large numbers. These massacres were performed by means of steam
Citation please.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:15 pm

Not to do the job for VFX but maybe this will save him the trouble?

https://books.google.ca/books?id=U8-PDg ... ng&f=false

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Nessie » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:16 pm

montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:The "lobster story" is a denier invention. No witness said people were steamed like lobster. It is fake news to claim there were reports at the time of people steamed like lobsters.

What a few reports and some non witnesses said was that it was thought the gas used was steam. That a gas was used is accurate and not knowing what type of gas is an understandable error by those who were not actually there and saw what was happening in detail.

We have a denier who not only does not show any understanding of the difference between hearsay and eye witness evidence, but he also does not know that amongst eye witnesses, the level of knowledge varies significantly. A camp guard who worked the watch towers, or a Sonderkommando who sorted property, has far less knowledge of gassings than a Nazi who ran the engines which produced the gas or a Sonderkommando who emptied bodies from the chambers.
Give it up Nessie, you're stooping to obvious lies now. No denier would have had info that would be used to boost the holocaust claims put in a newspaper.

I suggest that you take stock of all that you have come to believe, even though it's going to be a taking stock of most of your life. Do it now and live the rest of your life in accepting the truth of no holocaust ever happening.
Promoting lies about the Holocaust, including on forums, You Tube, twitter or anywhere that people can find online is a form of fake news. The lobster story is a denier invention and it is fake.

You should accept that you cannot evidence any alternative to the Holocaust, because there was none. It happened. People were gassed to death by the Nazis.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by montgomery » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:21 pm

And the best piece of evidence from 44 I've seen yet, even if I do say so myself. (snicker)

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:33 pm

montgomery wrote:Not to do the job for VFX but maybe this will save him the trouble?

https://books.google.ca/books?id=U8-PDg ... ng&f=false
Fail. Another Hans Rule 3 problem:
3. think before you type.
I asked for where at the IMT Ludwig Fischer "stated ... that Polish Jews were killed in large numbers. These massacres were performed by means of steam ..." As an example, according to VFX, of "lobstering" influencing the tribunal.

You linked to a 1944 UNWCC document stating "Polish charges against German war criminals" including Frank, Fischer and others. This particular charge involved the camp at Treblinka. Nowhere in the document is Fischer quoted testifying, as he could not have as he was not in Allied custody at the time. And the sheet is a list of charges and supporting narrative developed by the Polish government (ring a bell?).

I didn't ask you to find the words Fischer and steam on the same page.

Try again. Citation for when at the IMT, as VFX claims, or when he was in Polish custody for that matter, Fischer testified as VFX says he did.
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Darren Wilshak » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:40 pm

Image
Do they owe us a living?
Of course they do, of course they do.
Do they owe us a living?
Of course they do, of course they do.
Do they owe us a living?
ev corse they xxxxxxx do.

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:42 pm

LOL
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:42 pm

Nessie wrote:We have a denier who not only does not show any understanding of the difference between hearsay and eye witness evidence
The same genius has now given us a war-crimes commission charge summary as a citation for Fischer's supposed testimony at the IMT!
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Re: The Quest for Eye Witnesses to the Holocaust.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:46 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote:Image
Honestly, I think they both know full well that the Nazis carried out mass murder operations against the Jews (and others) and have chosen denial as a form of strategic trolling and a means of attempting to whitewash the Nazis. The giveaway is the utter stupidity of some of their replies.
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