Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:43 pm

crickets eh?
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:46 pm

Not quite...
montgomery wrote:...

It's all subject to being questioned and none of it can be proven conclusively. It just has to be accepted as the truth and that's the reason why it's become a 'sacred' issue that must never be questioned...
I understand you're dealing with certain challenges, but it's clear that you are willfully ignoring the actual workings of this subforum. And have not bothered to actually study any of its topics, but only looked for and harped on desired but nonexistent flaws.

And that that makes you the troll, BT. Go hunt yourself. :lol:
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:48 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:crickets eh?
Sure, that's fine. You can't respond and let down your protective barrier today, but it will stick in your head and hopefully we'll see some results over time. It's all for your own good and you're clever enough to know that.

In the meantime, could you try to give some real meaning to the insults?

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:50 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Not quite...
montgomery wrote:...

It's all subject to being questioned and none of it can be proven conclusively. It just has to be accepted as the truth and that's the reason why it's become a 'sacred' issue that must never be questioned...
I understand you're dealing with certain challenges, but it's clear that you are willfully ignoring the actual workings of this subforum. And have not bothered to actually study any of its topics, but only looked for and harped on desired but nonexistent flaws.

And that that makes you the troll, BT. Go hunt yourself. :lol:
Alright eggs, much better. Except it really doesn't get to the point of what the 'certain challenges' could be?

Anyway, who is BT? Answer that now or I throw you out with the bath water for the rest of the day.

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:51 pm

Why only for the day?
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:11 pm

It seems that the denier response has changed from "You seem to be trying to do some damage control over the facts coming out by now calling them 'exceptions'" to something like "You can't prove these damaging facts and your mother is fat." Of course, Dean, Guterman and others make a convincing enough case about these camps that the burden is on the confused denier who can't figure out what the really wants to say to show where they're wrong.
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:36 pm

Montgomery:


You've not dealing with simpletons any longer.
Really? Hadn’t noticed.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:47 pm

Seems BT can't get over the fact that only a fawning kid like VFX/"NSDAP" and other immature and close-minded individuals would take him/her seriously...
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:00 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Montgomery:


You've not dealing with simpletons any longer.
Really? Hadn’t noticed.
Indeed, an admission they were simpletons. I have not seen anything to show that there has been any advancement from simpleton. There is no sign of any ability to evidence claims.
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:03 pm

scrmbldggs wrote: immature and close-minded individuals would take him/her seriously...
Immature, oh my, when you are still at the gamete stage of physical development. When you have reached the blastula state then you may say more. One day you may emerge as a fully fledged lizard always wanting to fly but never will.

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:05 pm

Nessie wrote:
There is no sign of any ability to evidence claims.
There is no sign of any ability to claim evidence from you flipper.

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:10 pm

VFX wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote: immature and close-minded individuals would take him/her seriously...
Immature, oh my, when you are still at the gamete stage of physical development. When you have reached the blastula state then you may say more. One day you may emerge as a fully fledged lizard always wanting to fly but never will.
Dude(ette), your bio teacher sux.
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:12 pm

Quite a response to the problems all this creates for their pet theories.
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:50 pm

scrmbldggs wrote: Dude(ette), your bio teacher sux.
Perhaps this may help you understand. Think of it as your personal growth chart.
Image

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:03 pm

. . . when a Nazi has nothing to add to a discussion . . .
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:45 pm

VFX and montgomery are too busy trying to suss out who in this forum is a Jew, and biased as Jews presumably will be, to offer a single rebuttal to the arguments in this thread. Who is surprised?
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:52 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:VFX and montgomery are too busy trying to suss out who in this forum is a Jew, and biased as Jews presumably will be, to offer a single rebuttal to the arguments in this thread. Who is surprised?
We already know.

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:02 pm

VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:VFX and montgomery are too busy trying to suss out who in this forum is a Jew, and biased as Jews presumably will be, to offer a single rebuttal to the arguments in this thread. Who is surprised?
We already know.
Ooh, please share the formula of finding out who and what is what?




The Funny Pages would Shirley appreciate having such a contribution, having been there and all...
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:46 pm

Back to actual history, I’m going to add this in sections to make it easier for those who actually want to learn something about this subject.

I am writing this is in response to Statistical Mechanic’s mention of the DG IV in the Ukraine:
One better known case includes the labor camps for construction of the Durchgangsstrasse IV from the General-Gouvernement across southern Ukraine to Dnepropetrovsk. These camps were run by the OT and utilized the labor of both Ukrainian and Romanian Jews – in substantial numbers, Longerich says 10,000 by mid-1942 (mortality was extremely high)
I am pulling this from an essay entitled Annihilation and Labor: Jews and Thoroughfare IV in Central Ukraine from “Shoah in the Ukraine.” The article is by Andrej Angrick.

Per Agrick, by January of 1942 the responsibility for the project rested with Hans-Adolf Prutzmann (who took HSSPF Russia South on November 1st, 1941). The labor force (as mentioned by SM) was drawn from Jewish populations in Galacia and from the Romanian occupied region Transnistria.

This road stretched from 2,175 kilometers (or 1,360 miles) and started in Lviv, eventually ending Taganrog. Before the war it was a series of country roads and highways that the SS and Wehrmacht combined to make a main thoroughfare. It included two main projects, DG IVb (Lviv-Brody-Dubno-Rivne) and DG IVc (Kirovohrad-Oleksandriia-Kremenchuk-Poltava). This linked it to DG V (the road leading through Northern Ukraine). The project included the building of a dam at Zaporizhzhia (I probably butchered the hell out of that) and building bridges at the straits at Kerch. It also included building bridges across the Sothern Buh river.

Because it was a supply line for the Wehrmacht it was much more than a road. It included tire depots, corrals for horses, field hospitals, motor pools, anything a modern army might need. Needless to say it was very important.

Organization Todt maintained overall responsibility. Fritz Todt delegated the project to the Office of General Construction Inspector under Albert Speer. Construction started in September of 1941.

More later, have to take off for a bit...
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by montgomery » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:27 am

Keep the exceptions to the rule comin! But make sure you dress em up so they at least look respectable.

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:50 am

Cont...
By the Spring of 1942 there were 50,000 Soviet POWs, 50,000 civilian employees and 10,000 Jews working on DG IV. These were Jews that survived the initial purge of the Ukraine (BTW I sense a post coming on that). DG IV suffered from extreme manpower shortages due to very few POWs being taken in the Ukraine. Due to the conditions they worked in, the mortality rate among POWs was very high (the author states even higher than in the regular POW camps). The Germans also ran into problems in getting locals to work on the road. The locals were needed to bring in the harvest and the building of the road conflicted with that.

This left the remnants of Jews left in the Ukraine to be used for labor.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:04 am

Cont...
The first instance of Jews being used to construct part of the road occurred in September of 1941 in the region of Vinnytsia. Something similar happened in Kremenchuk when the mayor brought 1,100 Jewish laborers in to work on the road.

In May of 1942 24 surviving Jews were discovered and sent to work on the road, at about the same time a selection occurred in the Ghetto located at Uman. The Germans sealed the Ghetto, combed through it, packed the Jewish inhabitants into trucks and took them away. Outside of the town the Germans unloaded the trucks, separated out the healthy and shot the rest. The survivors went to camps located in the Haisyn to work on the road. Other ghettos in the area went through the same process and the survivors sent to work.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:08 am

The labor situation became so bad that SS officers began looking to outside regions with more Jewish survivors. They managed to briefly secure the services of 500 Jewish mechanics from Odessa (later sent back after unsuccessful attempts to keep them. Later about 1500 Jews from different areas were procurred for work on the road.

This procurement often clashed with the urge to murder all the Jews in the region. Specialists were spared but only briefly. Those that did live long enough died of maltreatment, disease or selections that swept up the sickest. Manpower became such an issue the Germans began procuring Jews from Transnistria.

Edited to correct a spelling error...
Last edited by Jeffk 1970 on Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by montgomery » Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:26 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:The labor situation became so bad that SS officers began looking to outside regions with more Jewish survivors. They managed to briefly secure the services of 500 Jewish mechanics from Odessa (later sent back after unsuccessful attempts to keep them. Later about 1500 Jews from different areas were procurred for work on the road.
Fifteen hundred rabbits from one hat!
This procurement often clashes with the urge to murder all the Jews in the region.
It sure does! But is it still hot off the press or is it reliable testimony from the 40's? Produce your source if it's the latter. If it's the former than save it for some gullible ass who swallows the modern day pablum.

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:21 am

No, you produce your source. That'd safe us having to pay entry to the zoo. :oldman:
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Nessie » Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:10 am

This is the type of thread deniers have to troll. The denier inability to evidence what happened to those they say were not killed at the AR camps needs to be constantly reminded. Denier lying that there is a lack of evidence those people were murdered also needs reminding.
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by VFX » Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:16 am

Nessie wrote:This is the type of thread deniers have to troll. The denier inability to evidence what happened to those they say were not killed at the AR camps needs to be constantly reminded. Denier lying that there is a lack of evidence those people were murdered also needs reminding.
There are murders every day of the year in every country. There were no AR camps but transit camps for statistical purposes as in the Hoefle telegram. They also functioned in part as hospitals and other sections as labour camps for nearby efforts. There is no evidence of what you claim flipper so perhaps you may need to remind us again for the millionth time. :D :D

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:39 am

scrmbldggs wrote:No, you produce your source. That'd safe us having to pay entry to the zoo. :oldman:
The idea that either of these self-important buffoons has a source - or has anything to say about the sources used by Dean or Guterman - is, well, to quote VFX, :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: .
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:54 am

4 From Schischmaren (Zezmer) to Pskov and Mokrovo

Avraham Tory and Hermann Kruk both wrote in their wartime diaries about the “Zezmer” (Schischmaren) camp. After the situation in Kaunas and Vilnius stabilized, Jews from these ghettos, and elsewhere, were shuttled to labor camps like Vievis and Zezmer and parts beyond -for work on projects that required more than locally available labor. The Zezmer camp had a particularly bad reputation in the Lithuanian ghettos. For example, Tory wrote about selections carried out, by Jewish police from Vilnius, at Zezmer, as did Kruk. Kruk IIRC wrote about transfers of Jews taken to Zezmer to Pskov. About Zezmer, in a postwar memoir, Jack Brauns from Kaunas described how some of the Jews (Brauns said nine of them) returned to the ghetto from the camp brought the dreaded typhus disease with them.

Dean discusses a “major deployment” of Jews from surviving Polish ghettos in spring 1943 to ZALfJ Schischmaren (Zezmer) bringing about 1000 male and female Jews from Vilnius, Oszmiana, Smorgonie and elsewhere to the camp to perform roadway construction under the direction of OT. Shortly afterwards, as noted by Kruk, Jews from ZALfJ Schischmaren were sent to other camps to the northeast, Pskov and Mokrovo. Survivors recalled partisan attacks on the trains taking them from Schischmaren to these other camps.

At Mokrovo, which was plagued by water shortages and swarms of mosquitoes, the Jewish laborers again felled timber to clea forest for railway construction. In addition to OT supervision, guards seem to have included soldiers from the Wehrmacht and Estonian SS. There were few killings of prisoners at Mokrovo and conditions were generally not as bad as at other camps.

The German civil administration guarded the Pskov camp. Dean concludes that about 100 (of the 1000) inmates held at Schischmaren were transferred to Pskov in May-June 1943. Of the total 500 Jewish prisoners at Pskov, about half were female. The labor there involved railroad construction.

At both camps, prisoners were aware of the proximity of the Red Army; partisans attacked Mokrovo several times. As the Germans’ hold on the region became untenable, during late 1943-early 1944 the Jewish prisoners were transferred again – from Mokrovo first a short distance to the west to camps in Estonia and then through the Kaiserwald-Riga system further west (nearly all the Mokrovo survivors were women). From Pskov, the prisoners were sent first to camps in Estonia and Latvia, then through the Kaiserwald system – eventually in summer 1944 to Stuffhof (Stutthof was evacuated ahead of the Red Army advance in 1945 in a notorious death march).

Some key points discussed by Dean:

* whilst conditions at Schischmaren (Zezmer) were frightful, conditions in the camps further northeast to which Jews from Schischmaren were sent were not as bad
* Pskov and Mokrovo lasted only several months, from spring to perhaps early fall 1943 as the Red Army was moving west through the area during summer 1943
* prisoners were evacuated from Mokrovo and Pskov in fall 1943, then through the Kaiserwald complex further west in 1944 (including to Stuffhof)

Note that
* again, the numbers of Jews involved in deployment to these camps is not large, many 100s, nowhere close to the millions that FP Berg, VFX, Monstrous, and other deniers want there to be in lesser-known camps to solve their numbers problem
* the camps were abandoned ahead of the Red Army advance and prisoners evacuated in stages to the west
* prisoners did not fall into the Soviets’ hands, nor were they transited through killing camps before being sent to these camps (the Jewish laborers were taken directly from ghettos in Lithuania and Belorussia)
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by montgomery » Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:41 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:4 From Schischmaren (Zezmer) to Pskov and Mokrovo

Avraham Tory and Hermann Kruk both wrote in their wartime diaries about the “Zezmer” (Schischmaren) camp. After the situation in Kaunas and Vilnius stabilized, Jews from these ghettos, and elsewhere, were shuttled to labor camps like Vievis and Zezmer and parts beyond -for work on projects that required more than locally available labor. The Zezmer camp had a particularly bad reputation in the Lithuanian ghettos. For example, Tory wrote about selections carried out, by Jewish police from Vilnius, at Zezmer, as did Kruk. Kruk IIRC wrote about transfers of Jews taken to Zezmer to Pskov. About Zezmer, in a postwar memoir, Jack Brauns from Kaunas described how some of the Jews (Brauns said nine of them) returned to the ghetto from the camp brought the dreaded typhus disease with them.

Dean discusses a “major deployment” of Jews from surviving Polish ghettos in spring 1943 to ZALfJ Schischmaren (Zezmer) bringing about 1000 male and female Jews from Vilnius, Oszmiana, Smorgonie and elsewhere to the camp to perform roadway construction under the direction of OT. Shortly afterwards, as noted by Kruk, Jews from ZALfJ Schischmaren were sent to other camps to the northeast, Pskov and Mokrovo. Survivors recalled partisan attacks on the trains taking them from Schischmaren to these other camps.

At Mokrovo, which was plagued by water shortages and swarms of mosquitoes, the Jewish laborers again felled timber to clea forest for railway construction. In addition to OT supervision, guards seem to have included soldiers from the Wehrmacht and Estonian SS. There were few killings of prisoners at Mokrovo and conditions were generally not as bad as at other camps.

The German civil administration guarded the Pskov camp. Dean concludes that about 100 (of the 1000) inmates held at Schischmaren were transferred to Pskov in May-June 1943. Of the total 500 Jewish prisoners at Pskov, about half were female. The labor there involved railroad construction.

At both camps, prisoners were aware of the proximity of the Red Army; partisans attacked Mokrovo several times. As the Germans’ hold on the region became untenable, during late 1943-early 1944 the Jewish prisoners were transferred again – from Mokrovo first a short distance to the west to camps in Estonia and then through the Kaiserwald-Riga system further west (nearly all the Mokrovo survivors were women). From Pskov, the prisoners were sent first to camps in Estonia and Latvia, then through the Kaiserwald system – eventually in summer 1944 to Stuffhof (Stutthof was evacuated ahead of the Red Army advance in 1945 in a notorious death march).

Some key points discussed by Dean:

* whilst conditions at Schischmaren (Zezmer) were frightful, conditions in the camps further northeast to which Jews from Schischmaren were sent were not as bad
* Pskov and Mokrovo lasted only several months, from spring to perhaps early fall 1943 as the Red Army was moving west through the area during summer 1943
* prisoners were evacuated from Mokrovo and Pskov in fall 1943, then through the Kaiserwald complex further west in 1944 (including to Stuffhof)

Note that
* again, the numbers of Jews involved in deployment to these camps is not large, many 100s, nowhere close to the millions that FP Berg, VFX, Monstrous, and other deniers want there to be in lesser-known camps to solve their numbers problem
* the camps were abandoned ahead of the Red Army advance and prisoners evacuated in stages to the west
* prisoners did not fall into the Soviets’ hands, nor were they transited through killing camps before being sent to these camps (the Jewish laborers were taken directly from ghettos in Lithuania and Belorussia)
Your evidence is grist for a skeptic because it's nothing more than excuses numbnuts.

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:57 pm

BTW I will continue the post on DG IV tonight, at work today and left the book at home.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:10 pm

sa brura
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Reaktori » Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:18 pm

montgomery wrote:
Your evidence is grist for a skeptic because it's nothing more than excuses numbnuts.
Your messages are degenerating further and further into total incoherence, you should probably calm down and become less flustered.

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:46 pm

There's overwhelming evidence - for any and all of it.
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:25 pm

I think a good adjunct to this would be a thread on reports of mass shootings per region. I will look at opening one on the Ukraine.
I thought about just adding it to the Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen thread but decided I wanted a more serious look at it.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:09 pm

5 From Slomin to Mogilev and Similar Transfers in Belorussia

Among other similar cases in Belorussia in 1942-1943 was the transfer of some Jews from ZALfJ Smolensk (see above) to ZALfJ Mogilev. The transferred Jewish forced laborers were divided into two groups at Mogilev – skilled workers in a small group, common laborers for construction projects in a second, larger group.

Dean relates a number of other deployments to the Mogilev transfers: Jews sent from Warsaw ghetto to the Waldlager at Bobruisk in 1942 (in his diary Czerniakow mentioned the deportation of 900 Jews from Warsaw, including 150 teenagers, under German escort to Bobruisk) and Jews from Szczuczyn ghetto to ZALfJ near Borisov, leaving very few survivors. Only about 6% of the Jews sent to the Bobruisk camp survived conditions there over the first year.

By 1943, after Stalingrad and with German labor needs pressing, many of the Jews in the ZALfJs were treated better, so as to keep them working, than (a) earlier groups of Jewish forced laborers and/or (b) Jews in SS custody – that is, those Jews not subject to immediate liquidation by the SS and other murder organizations in the East. At the Mogilev camp, the skilled workers were not supervised by the SS and received better treatment than the construction laborers who were directed by the SS. The SS carried out periodic selections and shootings of sick prisoners and abused the inmates regularly. By late 1943, as a result, just 7% of the Slomin Jews sent to Mogilev were still alive.

Eventually, the small numbers of surviving Jews at Mogilev were evacuated to camps in Minsk, Lublin, and Radom; there, most of these “survivors” died in typhus outbreaks. The few who didn’t die were sent to the Ebensee subcamp of KL Mauthausen, the harshest of the KLs, further west in Austria. “Only a handful of . . . Slonim Jews sent to Mogilev survived the war.”

Some key points discussed by Dean:

* despite the increasing need for labor as the German war effort came under many-sided pressure, conditions for most Jewish forced laborers in the lesser-known camps remained harsh and mortality high
* deaths of these prisoners in these camps were sometimes from brutal treatment, other times from poor sanitation, disease, accidents, etc

Note that
* once again, the numbers of Jews in these camps was very small – 403 Slonim Jews sent to Mogilev, 1,500 Jews total in Bobruisk; even had mortality been lower, the numbers involved are too insignificant to support any argument that millions of Jews survived in unknown or lesser known camps . . . Fritz, been-there, Monstrous, and VFX won't find anywhere near enough Jews in these camps to support their claims of Jews "hidden" through the war and falling into Soviet hands at war's end . . . however . . . the Jews in these camps never made it into Soviet hands because . . .
* these Belorussian deployments had very high mortality rates, even eventually among skilled workers who were given better treatment than most of the forced laborers . . . and . . .
* as with previous cases, the small numbers of survivors of these camps were evacuated to the west and did not fall into Soviet hands
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:38 pm

6 Agricultural Camps in Czortków County of Eastern Galicia

Dean describes the 30 forced labor camps for Jews in Czortków County, eastern Galicia, as a “counterintuitive” survival strategy for Jews - where Jews outside the extermination networks were able to stay alive whilst most Jews in the occupied East were being put to death. Dean has found that 600 Jews survived the ZALfJs in Czortków County and concluded that the best chance for Jews to survive in this area was to be taken into an agricultural forced labor camp run by Wehrmacht, not by the SS (see above), where plants were cultivated for production of synthetic rubber.

The context in which these camps existed is important: HSSPF limited the number of ghettos in which Jews could live to 30, with some confined to specific barracks camps. From summer 1941 onwards the mass murder in the region intensified so that by the end of 1942 the Jews who remained alive in these places knew that they were living on borrowed time. After Bełzec was closed down in 1943 there was, in fact, a brutal forced clearing of the remaining ghettos. The ghetto survival rate was about 5%. Jews tried different ways to stay alive - e.g., going into hiding. But others went into camps. Men were often drafted for road construction, so teens and women were overrepresented in the ZALfJ agricultural camps. Sometimes Jews went along with assignment to camps, and still other times they fled. Escapes from the ZALfJs were common. In one of the agricultural labor camps, the inmates had to pay a camp official to continue working there.

In the region there were about 170 camps for Jews by 1943. The camps differed greatly one from the others - some were guarded tightly whilst others lacked even fencing. There were three "remnant ghettos" that survived for about a month. Ukrainian or German police units would visit some of the camps, conduct a selection, and shoot the selected Jews; only about 150 police operated in the region, limiting the size and frequency of the shootings. In many camps, the Wehrmacht officers would help the Jewish forced laborers avoid the murder actions - by going into hiding, disappearing in the camp or nearby woods until the action was over. Jews usually returned to the camp because there they could obtain some food and were somewhat safer from patrols. Bribery of guards and Ukrainian police by inmates was another strategy used. By late 1943 there were larger-scale shootings of those ill with typhus. The camps were liquidated late that year and in early 1944. Some of these Jews survived in the camps to be liberated by the Red Army.

Some key points discussed by Dean:

* between 600-700 Jews were liberated by the Red Army - they'd been collected by the Germans into 3 camps
* in a sample of 182 survivors, only 13 were taken to KLs in the west and 11 survived in hiding - the best survival strategy was counterintuitive: to remain in German custody until the Red Army liberated the area
* the total number of survivors of the 170 camps was estimated to be about 750 or so maximum

Note that

* in these camps small numbers of Jewish survivors did wind up under Soviet control/protection
* lest Monstrous and been-there get overly excited, however, this is nothing new (think of Auschwitz, where about 7,500 prisoners were found alive, and at Majdanek - where shootings continued until the day before liberation and about 15,000 prisoners were sent to camps in the west in the weeks before - 1500 - of whom 900 were Soviet POWs and about zero Jews, the last 30 having been executed shortly before liberation - the number of Jews in the camp after Erntefest in November 1943, when 18,000 Jews were shot, at Majdanek was negligible); the 750 survivors of the Wehrmacht-run camps in eastern Galicia offer no help to the problem of millions of Jews deniers say were hidden away in camps or liberated by the Soviets . . . sadly, we are aware of what prisoners were in which large camps liberated by the Soviets - and, as these cases show, only tiny numbers from lesser-known camps came under Soviet control
* as with the other cases, there's not a single documented example of Jews "transiting" through AR killing centers or other death camps to their eventual destination
* conditions in these exceptional camps often managed by the Wehrmacht, or OT, were usually better than conditions in SS camps - and in this limited case the camps were seen by some Jews as a survival strategy, according to Dean, preferable certainly to immediate murder but also to the harsher SS camps and to ghettos and sometimes to taking chances by fleeing or going into hiding - but not many Jews were brought into these camps or survived them

One aspect of the cases discussed in this thread, of which VFX and other deniers seem unaware, was Himmler's order of 21 June 1943 order to break up ghettos and establish a small number of SS-run camps for Jews in Ostland; after summer 1943 - Łódź being the biggest exception and some others are mentioned above - ghettos were largely liquidated and Jews taken into KLs or other camps under SS control. Himmler's order curiously stated that "Members of the Jewish ghettos who are not required [for work in the camps] shall be evacuated to the East." There is no record of the Germans' evacuating Jews in 1943 and 1944 into the face of the Red Army - but, as we've seen, there is a great deal of evidence of evacuations of Jews from the various camps, whether run by the SS or by other agencies, to the west, away from the Red Army.

At this time as well, by mid-1943, to the south Katzmann was reporting that Galician Jews were either in camps (5% of them) or evacuated and resettled (95%). He didn't say where to. But not "to the East" - Ukraine lying to the East and the Red Army heading westward.
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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by montgomery » Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:20 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:

At this time as well, by mid-1943, to the south Katzmann was reporting that Galician Jews were either in camps (5% of them) or evacuated and resettled (95%). He didn't say where to. But not "to the East" - Ukraine lying to the East and the Red Army heading westward.
Where else if not the East? Can you ask him. Surely he's no more than about 110 years old now! Or if he's not then his grandson will know for sure!

Full not censored text of "Katzman report" was published in 2009. Blahhhhhhhhhh! :oops:

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:26 am

Cont....
Jews selected for working in the camps along DG IV fell prey to disease and malnutrition. At one of the camps called Leznevo relatively healthy Jews contracted typhus. The Germans sent the workers to Proskuriv where they were briefly treated at a Jewish hospital. A short time later a truck pulled up and Lithuanian policemen loaded up the sick workers, drove them to a sandpit and shot them.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Exceptions to the rule: Jewish forced labor camps in the occupied East

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:33 am

Regarding Jewish workers from Transnistria, about 3,000 Jewish workers were lured out by promises of better rations and care, including accommodations for the young and ill. Once lured out, the Germans began mistreating them. These Jews went to camps at Nemriyev, Osytna Kunka and other labor camps in the area.

By August of 1943 military reverses caused the Germans to begin evacuations. The camps were liquidated and a few survivors sent west.

The author estimates that about 25,000 Jewish workers worked and died along the DG IV corridor. Going back to OP, the Germans took Jews to work on DG IV as a labor source, used them up and then replaced them as needed.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951