a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

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a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:53 pm

Balsamo recently wrote, “The Holocaust has suffered form the excess of memorizalition as well - and it is a paradox - of having very badly taught.” And I agreed with his second point.

You may have seen headlines about proposed revisions to the TEKS, the state of Texas' mandatory essential knowledge and skills for each grade of public schools in Texas. The TEKS shape classroom instruction, state testing, and textbooks (which are judged for compliance in order to be approved by the state for adoption by schools).

Helen Keller and Hillary Clinton, breathless news accounts tell us, will be removed from the Texas curriculum. These news items report on recent recommendations from the State Board of Education's TEKS working group to “streamline” the curriculum. The Board accepted the “streamlining” recommendations in a preliminary vote 10 or so days ago. The Board's final vote comes in November - and groups are already lobbying concerning this year's proposed changes. (The Texas State Board has long been a plaything of the far right in Texas - I believe its makeup is now 10-5 Republican to Democrat.)

Deeper in these stories one can find that some other recommendations were part of the working group's proposals. First, students must be taught that the defenders of the Alamo were heroes. This is called “reinsertion” of a previous knowledge standard. Second, about the contemporary Middle East, Texas teachers are required to teach that “Arab rejection of the State of Israel has led to ongoing conflict” - and thus that conflict is the fault of Arabs. Third, for US government (an 11th grade course) instruction that “Judeo-Christian (especially biblical law)” values form the foundation for American governance (as a result Moses is to be “reinserted” into the government TEKS and Thomas Hobbes removed, presumably to streamline and make room).

Which brings me to one of the Texas State Board's recommendations which I've noticed buried in the media reports: removal of the Holocaust from the world history curriculum as one of the “major . . . events” of the World War II era. The Texas Holocaust and Genocide Commission opposed this recommendation in testimony at the Board's hearings on the proposals. Some commentators assume that in November's final package the Holocaust will be un-removed. It's unclear from the media reports, but there may be a reference to the Holocaust left in some TEKS referring to genocide, but not as part of the WWII history instruction.

The instruction that students now get, under the current TEKS, unless a school has an informed, proactive teaching staff, relies on poorly done, superficial, misleading, and often erroneous materials - and amounts to a couple of class sessions across the K-12 curriculum and instruction. Should the Board's preliminary decision stand, textbooks will not be required to include material on the Holocaust in their WWII coverage; state tests will not ask questions about students' knowledge of the Holocaust among WWII items, and teachers will not be expected to deal with the Holocaust when teaching about what happened during WWII. IIRC fewer than a dozen states in the US have mandatory Holocaust and genocide education as part of their curricula.

(Oh, yes, before I forget apologies to BT and the other wing nuts for knowing something about this topic . . . I assume that disqualifies me from opening this thread.)
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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:05 pm

I've been saying that for years. When nazis claim that people of the world are being (((brainwashed))) into believing in the Holocaust, what they fail to realize is that what the general public is taught about the Holocaust barely scratches the surface.

The right thing to say is that the majority of people know THE Holocaust, but know almost nothing ABOUT the Holocaust. Only when I got into anti-denial and found sites like Nizkor, HC or this forum, I realized how little I acutally knew about the whole thing, even as a graduate of Israel's education system, where 20th century history studies are like 90% holocaust and 10% everythin else.

This off course leads to main reason why deniers are wrong: they attack GENERAL, COMMON PEOPLE'S BELIEFS instead of what historiographers actually claim. There's this huge middle ground off people who have no idea what they are talking about, no matter if they are deniers or "believers". Stuff like "6 million people gassed" or "soaps and lampshades" crap.
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:54 pm

There used to be a denier named Antipodes that posted here back in the days of yore. His complaint was often that what people were showing him was different than what he was taught in school.

Now Pyrrho banished him long ago but I thought that his problem was related to two things:
1) His memory was flawed (all things considered this was likely) and
2) His teachers were sadly misinformed.

All things considered I think both are more correct now than ever.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:17 pm

Along with the point that deniers like to confuse people by confusing memorialization and education with scholarship about the period is another issue pertaining to the US: history education in US public schools is generally very poor. Back to Texas: recently, in an effort to comply with the state’s byzantine and frankly historically illiterate guidelines, one education materials publisher wound up describing Africans in bondage in the South before the Civil War simply as “workers,” equating people who were owned as property and forced laborers on plantations and small holdings in the southern states with “free laborers” in other states. It’s that deficient.
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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:25 pm

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:I've been saying that for years. When nazis claim that people of the world are being (((brainwashed))) into believing in the Holocaust, what they fail to realize is that what the general public is taught about the Holocaust barely scratches the surface.

The right thing to say is that the majority of people know THE Holocaust, but know almost nothing ABOUT the Holocaust. Only when I got into anti-denial and found sites like Nizkor, HC or this forum, I realized how little I acutally knew about the whole thing, even as a graduate of Israel's education system, where 20th century history studies are like 90% holocaust and 10% everythin else.

This off course leads to main reason why deniers are wrong: they attack GENERAL, COMMON PEOPLE'S BELIEFS instead of what historiographers actually claim. There's this huge middle ground off people who have no idea what they are talking about, no matter if they are deniers or "believers". Stuff like "6 million people gassed" or "soaps and lampshades" crap.
Can you give some examples of that? Is what I'm hearing on this forum, common people's beliefs or historians' beliefs? And if so then how does it differ, with one or two examples?

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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by ElectricMonk » Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:29 pm

I have no other explanation but to assume that the people in charge of the Curriculum in Texas assume that the End Times are imminent.
Nothing else can explain their efforts to cripple the competitiveness of their children on the future labor market.

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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:35 pm

montgomery wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:I've been saying that for years. When nazis claim that people of the world are being (((brainwashed))) into believing in the Holocaust, what they fail to realize is that what the general public is taught about the Holocaust barely scratches the surface.

The right thing to say is that the majority of people know THE Holocaust, but know almost nothing ABOUT the Holocaust. Only when I got into anti-denial and found sites like Nizkor, HC or this forum, I realized how little I acutally knew about the whole thing, even as a graduate of Israel's education system, where 20th century history studies are like 90% holocaust and 10% everythin else.

This off course leads to main reason why deniers are wrong: they attack GENERAL, COMMON PEOPLE'S BELIEFS instead of what historiographers actually claim. There's this huge middle ground off people who have no idea what they are talking about, no matter if they are deniers or "believers". Stuff like "6 million people gassed" or "soaps and lampshades" crap.
Can you give some examples of that? Is what I'm hearing on this forum, common people's beliefs or historians' beliefs? And if so then how does it differ, with one or two examples?
I just gave you one or two examples in the very comment that you've quoted.
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:37 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:I have no other explanation but to assume that the people in charge of the Curriculum in Texas assume that the End Times are imminent.
Nothing else can explain their efforts to cripple the competitiveness of their children on the future labor market.
How do you come to that conclusion? If they try to outlaw the teaching of evolution in favor of creationism then it would be a decided issue. Allowing children to keep an open and questioning mind on the holocaust will protect them against legendary sh-t that's impossible in the real world. Such as the Mogliev thingy.

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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:38 pm

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:I've been saying that for years. When nazis claim that people of the world are being (((brainwashed))) into believing in the Holocaust, what they fail to realize is that what the general public is taught about the Holocaust barely scratches the surface.

The right thing to say is that the majority of people know THE Holocaust, but know almost nothing ABOUT the Holocaust. Only when I got into anti-denial and found sites like Nizkor, HC or this forum, I realized how little I acutally knew about the whole thing, even as a graduate of Israel's education system, where 20th century history studies are like 90% holocaust and 10% everythin else.

This off course leads to main reason why deniers are wrong: they attack GENERAL, COMMON PEOPLE'S BELIEFS instead of what historiographers actually claim. There's this huge middle ground off people who have no idea what they are talking about, no matter if they are deniers or "believers". Stuff like "6 million people gassed" or "soaps and lampshades" crap.
Can you give some examples of that? Is what I'm hearing on this forum, common people's beliefs or historians' beliefs? And if so then how does it differ, with one or two examples?
I just gave you one or two examples in the very comment that you've quoted.
No you didn't so I'll just take it that you can't provide examples. Thanks anyway!

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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:59 pm

montgomery wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:I've been saying that for years. When nazis claim that people of the world are being (((brainwashed))) into believing in the Holocaust, what they fail to realize is that what the general public is taught about the Holocaust barely scratches the surface.

The right thing to say is that the majority of people know THE Holocaust, but know almost nothing ABOUT the Holocaust. Only when I got into anti-denial and found sites like Nizkor, HC or this forum, I realized how little I acutally knew about the whole thing, even as a graduate of Israel's education system, where 20th century history studies are like 90% holocaust and 10% everythin else.

This off course leads to main reason why deniers are wrong: they attack GENERAL, COMMON PEOPLE'S BELIEFS instead of what historiographers actually claim. There's this huge middle ground off people who have no idea what they are talking about, no matter if they are deniers or "believers". Stuff like "6 million people gassed" or "soaps and lampshades" crap.
Can you give some examples of that? Is what I'm hearing on this forum, common people's beliefs or historians' beliefs? And if so then how does it differ, with one or two examples?
I just gave you one or two examples in the very comment that you've quoted.
No you didn't so I'll just take it that you can't provide examples. Thanks anyway!
Are you really that stupid or are you just pretending?

Stuff like "6 million people gassed" or "soaps and lampshades" crap.
Last edited by Im_Not_Creative_Enough on Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:03 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:I have no other explanation but to assume that the people in charge of the Curriculum in Texas assume that the End Times are imminent.
Nothing else can explain their efforts to cripple the competitiveness of their children on the future labor market.
Yep, they love their (and other's) offspring and want them to be raptured only from crappy exalted religious colleges and no others.
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:13 pm

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:I've been saying that for years. When nazis claim that people of the world are being (((brainwashed))) into believing in the Holocaust, what they fail to realize is that what the general public is taught about the Holocaust barely scratches the surface.

The right thing to say is that the majority of people know THE Holocaust, but know almost nothing ABOUT the Holocaust. Only when I got into anti-denial and found sites like Nizkor, HC or this forum, I realized how little I acutally knew about the whole thing, even as a graduate of Israel's education system, where 20th century history studies are like 90% holocaust and 10% everythin else.

This off course leads to main reason why deniers are wrong: they attack GENERAL, COMMON PEOPLE'S BELIEFS instead of what historiographers actually claim. There's this huge middle ground off people who have no idea what they are talking about, no matter if they are deniers or "believers". Stuff like "6 million people gassed" or "soaps and lampshades" crap.
Can you give some examples of that? Is what I'm hearing on this forum, common people's beliefs or historians' beliefs? And if so then how does it differ, with one or two examples?
I just gave you one or two examples in the very comment that you've quoted.
No you didn't so I'll just take it that you can't provide examples. Thanks anyway!
Are you really that stupid or are you just pretending?

Stuff like "6 million people gassed" or "soaps and lampshades" crap.
I didn't take it that your example you give was still common people's stories. I think it was more like the official line by people we were taught to believe were eye witnesses.

And that leads to the obvious question: Are people such as eggs, balmoral, stat.mech., or Hans ordinary people in your view? Or are we supposed to take them as authorities? I think it's not fair for you to think you can have it both ways. And the reason is, Hans' evidence on Mogliev for example, is roughly equivalent to the lampshades and soap facts. Fair enough?

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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by Darren Wilshak » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:48 pm

Yes the denier BS bingo game.

All collected here but the game is often being updated as new denier BS emerges.

https://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic. ... {!#%@}+bingo

"6 million people gassed" or "soaps and lampshades"
Last edited by Darren Wilshak on Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:52 pm

montgomery wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:I've been saying that for years. When nazis claim that people of the world are being (((brainwashed))) into believing in the Holocaust, what they fail to realize is that what the general public is taught about the Holocaust barely scratches the surface.

The right thing to say is that the majority of people know THE Holocaust, but know almost nothing ABOUT the Holocaust. Only when I got into anti-denial and found sites like Nizkor, HC or this forum, I realized how little I acutally knew about the whole thing, even as a graduate of Israel's education system, where 20th century history studies are like 90% holocaust and 10% everythin else.

This off course leads to main reason why deniers are wrong: they attack GENERAL, COMMON PEOPLE'S BELIEFS instead of what historiographers actually claim. There's this huge middle ground off people who have no idea what they are talking about, no matter if they are deniers or "believers". Stuff like "6 million people gassed" or "soaps and lampshades" crap.
Can you give some examples of that? Is what I'm hearing on this forum, common people's beliefs or historians' beliefs? And if so then how does it differ, with one or two examples?
I just gave you one or two examples in the very comment that you've quoted.
No you didn't so I'll just take it that you can't provide examples. Thanks anyway!
Are you really that stupid or are you just pretending?

Stuff like "6 million people gassed" or "soaps and lampshades" crap.
I didn't take it that your example you give was still common people's stories. I think it was more like the official line by people we were taught to believe were eye witnesses.

And that leads to the obvious question: Are people such as eggs, balmoral, stat.mech., or Hans ordinary people in your view? Or are we supposed to take them as authorities? I think it's not fair for you to think you can have it both ways. And the reason is, Hans' evidence on Mogliev for example, is roughly equivalent to the lampshades and soap facts. Fair enough?
Other than Dr. Terry I don't conscider anyone here as an authorotive holocaust studies figure. But people here are at the very least capble of distinguishing between real historigraphy and mouth-to-ear myths.
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:05 pm

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:I've been saying that for years. When nazis claim that people of the world are being (((brainwashed))) into believing in the Holocaust, what they fail to realize is that what the general public is taught about the Holocaust barely scratches the surface.

The right thing to say is that the majority of people know THE Holocaust, but know almost nothing ABOUT the Holocaust. Only when I got into anti-denial and found sites like Nizkor, HC or this forum, I realized how little I acutally knew about the whole thing, even as a graduate of Israel's education system, where 20th century history studies are like 90% holocaust and 10% everythin else.

This off course leads to main reason why deniers are wrong: they attack GENERAL, COMMON PEOPLE'S BELIEFS instead of what historiographers actually claim. There's this huge middle ground off people who have no idea what they are talking about, no matter if they are deniers or "believers". Stuff like "6 million people gassed" or "soaps and lampshades" crap.
Can you give some examples of that? Is what I'm hearing on this forum, common people's beliefs or historians' beliefs? And if so then how does it differ, with one or two examples?
I just gave you one or two examples in the very comment that you've quoted.
No you didn't so I'll just take it that you can't provide examples. Thanks anyway!
Are you really that stupid or are you just pretending?

Stuff like "6 million people gassed" or "soaps and lampshades" crap.
I didn't take it that your example you give was still common people's stories. I think it was more like the official line by people we were taught to believe were eye witnesses.

And that leads to the obvious question: Are people such as eggs, balmoral, stat.mech., or Hans ordinary people in your view? Or are we supposed to take them as authorities? I think it's not fair for you to think you can have it both ways. And the reason is, Hans' evidence on Mogliev for example, is roughly equivalent to the lampshades and soap facts. Fair enough?
Other than Dr. Terry I don't conscider anyone here as an authorotive holocaust studies figure. But people here are at the very least capble of distinguishing between real historigraphy and mouth-to-ear myths.
Yeah, well most of them have either promoted crap or behaved badly. That's your problem to deal with, not mine. And you aren't doing anything to make it any better pal!

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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by nickterry » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:14 pm

montgomery wrote:
I didn't take it that your example you give was still common people's stories. I think it was more like the official line by people we were taught to believe were eye witnesses.
The 'soap' and 'lampshades' misconceptions involve a significant slippage from individual freakish cases more associated with concentration camps and non-Jewish victims, to generalising about the extermination of the Jews. Lampshades is associated with Buchenwald, and was quite real - but this was a camp largely for non-Jews at the time that this took place, not to mention the fact that tattoos are forbidden in Judaism. Some Nazis did make cleaning materials out of human fat, at the Danzig Anatomy Institute, but the corpses sent there which provided the fat were from Stutthof and were not Jewish.

Many other common misconceptions about the Holocaust also stem from conflating the Nazi concentration camps with the extermination of the Jews. Over 75% of Jewish Holocaust victims did not die in concentration camps. Auschwitz is less than 20% of the extermination of the Jews, but it is the most well-known camp, with significantly more references in media stories than the Operation Reinhard camps like Treblinka, or the mass shootings in Eastern Europe. Auschwitz is a metonym for the Holocaust, in that it stands in for the whole in many people's imagination, and indeed in West Germany before the term Holocaust caught on, 'Auschwitz' was the shorthand for the extermination of Jews and also for Nazi crimes as a whole. But metonyms are not necessarily accurate or representative. 'Auschwitz' reinforces the popular notion that most Jews were killed in gas chambers - when not more than half died this way, and when shooting victims outnumber the victims of Auschwitz twice over.
And that leads to the obvious question: Are people such as eggs, balmoral, stat.mech., or Hans ordinary people in your view? Or are we supposed to take them as authorities? I think it's not fair for you to think you can have it both ways. And the reason is, Hans' evidence on Mogliev for example, is roughly equivalent to the lampshades and soap facts. Fair enough?
You seem curiously obsessed with "authorities". There is a middle ground in between "authorities", whatever that term means, and ordinary people who have only absorbed their historical knowledge passively from school days and movies.

This is a forum for the informed amateur discussion of history, so nobody here is "ordinary", but neither are they to be shoehorned into the category of "authority" just so you can feel rebellious. The currency of discussion here is knowledge derived from secondary and primary sources; people are here to learn from each other, and they do this by trading recommendations or making summaries of what they have read. Some members might well write up things more formally elsewhere, but on this forum we don't stand on ceremony, or worry about who has the higher degree.

But yeah, I guess we're mostly well-informed enough not only about the Holocaust but also the discipline of history to laugh at ignoramuses who might write things like 'primal sources'.

And no, Hans's evidence on Mogilev is not equivalent to soap 'n' lampshades.

You keep on misspelling MogILev by the way, which is supremely funny to those who know the Russian proverb gorbatogo mogila ispravit.

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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:20 pm

montgomery wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:I've been saying that for years. When nazis claim that people of the world are being (((brainwashed))) into believing in the Holocaust, what they fail to realize is that what the general public is taught about the Holocaust barely scratches the surface.

The right thing to say is that the majority of people know THE Holocaust, but know almost nothing ABOUT the Holocaust. Only when I got into anti-denial and found sites like Nizkor, HC or this forum, I realized how little I acutally knew about the whole thing, even as a graduate of Israel's education system, where 20th century history studies are like 90% holocaust and 10% everythin else.

This off course leads to main reason why deniers are wrong: they attack GENERAL, COMMON PEOPLE'S BELIEFS instead of what historiographers actually claim. There's this huge middle ground off people who have no idea what they are talking about, no matter if they are deniers or "believers". Stuff like "6 million people gassed" or "soaps and lampshades" crap.
Can you give some examples of that? Is what I'm hearing on this forum, common people's beliefs or historians' beliefs? And if so then how does it differ, with one or two examples?
I just gave you one or two examples in the very comment that you've quoted.
No you didn't so I'll just take it that you can't provide examples. Thanks anyway!
Are you really that stupid or are you just pretending?

Stuff like "6 million people gassed" or "soaps and lampshades" crap.
I didn't take it that your example you give was still common people's stories. I think it was more like the official line by people we were taught to believe were eye witnesses.

And that leads to the obvious question: Are people such as eggs, balmoral, stat.mech., or Hans ordinary people in your view? Or are we supposed to take them as authorities? I think it's not fair for you to think you can have it both ways. And the reason is, Hans' evidence on Mogliev for example, is roughly equivalent to the lampshades and soap facts. Fair enough?
Other than Dr. Terry I don't conscider anyone here as an authorotive holocaust studies figure. But people here are at the very least capble of distinguishing between real historigraphy and mouth-to-ear myths.
Yeah, well most of them have either promoted crap or behaved badly. That's your problem to deal with, not mine. And you aren't doing anything to make it any better pal!
File your complaints after the holidays.
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by Balsamo » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:11 pm

At this point, it is maybe better for me - who don't know {!#%@} about the education in the US - to briefly present how the Shoah is taught in France. I have just seen that Statmec in another posts asked for some clue on why there are so many French that consider the holocaust as exaggerated.

This little summary is not meant to respond to Statmec question, but it might give some clue.
In order to understand what follows, keep in mind that the French education system is divided in three main cycles:
- elementary school, called primary school in Belgium, roughly 4-11 years.
- College years - no point in common with US colleges - going from 11 years to 14 years.
- Lycee : representing the last three years, from 14 years old to 17/18 years old.

The first college years is called the 6th grade, the second the 5th, etc until the last years which is the 3rd grade.
The three last years of a schoolboy are - the Lycee - called the 2nd, the first and the "Terminal" where he has to pass his baccalaureate.

The Holocaust is taught at various levels:
It can start as soon as the 5th grade (12 years old) within civic education course which covers topics like human rights, freedom, democracy, equality, etc.
In any case, it will be part of teaching of the second world war given to the third grade ( or around 14 years old pupils).
And finally within additional lessons about world war 2 and more globally on courses on Democracy and Totalitarism during the 1st grade, 16-17 years, the year before the "Terminal".

France has the particularity to propose a permanent "philosophy class", and if the teacher wants to speak about the Holocaust (called Shoah in France), he is of course free to do so.
It can also be discussed in "French classes" as Primo Levi used to be a mandatory reading.

So basically, in the case of France, the issue is not the lack of teaching that is the problem. Or at least that is what those data - full disclosure, those data might be outdated, although i doubt it, and refers to a time when i was kind of indirectly involved in those debates, quite some times ago - because in reality there are a lot of issues:
- The Holocaust is always part of a cursus, which is normal, but then even the ambition of the whole cursus is most of the time too big to be treated within the small numbers of teaching hours dedicated to History.
In France, the course of History is merged with the course of geography, which makes it even more difficult to teach properly. In most schools, no more than 1 or 2 hours is dedicated to these fields on a weekly basis.
Of course, a history teacher at this level is not a specialist, so he will essentially rely on 4 methods:
- the manual
- mandatory readings, mainly Primo levi and Anne Frank
- documentaries, mostly still "Nuit et Brouillard" of Alain Resnais.
- visits of musea and historical sight.

A most important issue for me is how this teaching is spread across the cycles: Ar their first encounter with the Shoah, the pupil is often only 11 or 12 years old. At this age, they a very good at learning things, much less of course at "thinking" about the things they learned.
This first touch is often highly emotional, it kind of hurt, it creates a shock.
Then, they will be another dose of emotion 2-3 years later, at this stage, the teen got some critical capacities, and start asking questions while the teacher often has only his manual to find an answers, so most of the questions a left unanswered.
A third dose in infused - sorry if my words seem shocking, it is really how i see the method - when the pupils are 16-17. At that stages, as the method of teaching has not evolved - same readings, documentary, unanswered questions, it is when Internet comes in play.

Another specific feature of France, which is very important, is that the teaching approach insists very much on the French national guilt: France, through the Vichy Regime, was an undeniable accomplice of the genocide. Whether we agree or not with this accusation, is not what matters.
There are two more fundamental problems with the shift (1996).
- It is at odd with what the previous generation had been told. So one can imagine a teenagers coming back home from his history class, saying "Daddy, we killed the Jews during world war 2" just to meet his dad explaining to him that "it is not true, you grand-father fought for his country against the Nazis".

- The new ethnic reality of France made this guilt seems unfair for at least 25% or more of the students who are from foreign origins, some of them of ethnicity which have themselves been a victim, even if only from colonialism and basic racism.

It is really challenging for me to explain this difficult issue in English. But to sum up, there is the way the Shoah is taught is basically a bad cocktail composed of Emotion, guilt, unanswered questions which then leads to skepticism. It is kind of "too little" and "too much" at the same time.

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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:19 pm

Balsamo wrote:At this point, it is maybe better for me - who don't know {!#%@} about the education in the US - to briefly present how the Shoah is taught in France. I have just seen that Statmec in another posts asked for some clue on why there are so many French that consider the holocaust as exaggerated.

This little summary is not meant to respond to Statmec question, but it might give some clue.
In order to understand what follows, keep in mind that the French education system is divided in three main cycles:
- elementary school, called primary school in Belgium, roughly 4-11 years.
- College years - no point in common with US colleges - going from 11 years to 14 years.
- Lycee : representing the last three years, from 14 years old to 17/18 years old.

The first college years is called the 6th grade, the second the 5th, etc until the last years which is the 3rd grade.
The three last years of a schoolboy are - the Lycee - called the 2nd, the first and the "Terminal" where he has to pass his baccalaureate.

The Holocaust is taught at various levels:
It can start as soon as the 5th grade (12 years old) within civic education course which covers topics like human rights, freedom, democracy, equality, etc.
In any case, it will be part of teaching of the second world war given to the third grade ( or around 14 years old pupils).
And finally within additional lessons about world war 2 and more globally on courses on Democracy and Totalitarism during the 1st grade, 16-17 years, the year before the "Terminal".

France has the particularity to propose a permanent "philosophy class", and if the teacher wants to speak about the Holocaust (called Shoah in France), he is of course free to do so.
It can also be discussed in "French classes" as Primo Levi used to be a mandatory reading.

So basically, in the case of France, the issue is not the lack of teaching that is the problem. Or at least that is what those data - full disclosure, those data might be outdated, although i doubt it, and refers to a time when i was kind of indirectly involved in those debates, quite some times ago - because in reality there are a lot of issues:
- The Holocaust is always part of a cursus, which is normal, but then even the ambition of the whole cursus is most of the time too big to be treated within the small numbers of teaching hours dedicated to History.
In France, the course of History is merged with the course of geography, which makes it even more difficult to teach properly. In most schools, no more than 1 or 2 hours is dedicated to these fields on a weekly basis.
Of course, a history teacher at this level is not a specialist, so he will essentially rely on 4 methods:
- the manual
- mandatory readings, mainly Primo levi and Anne Frank
- documentaries, mostly still "Nuit et Brouillard" of Alain Resnais.
- visits of musea and historical sight.

A most important issue for me is how this teaching is spread across the cycles: Ar their first encounter with the Shoah, the pupil is often only 11 or 12 years old. At this age, they a very good at learning things, much less of course at "thinking" about the things they learned.
This first touch is often highly emotional, it kind of hurt, it creates a shock.
Then, they will be another dose of emotion 2-3 years later, at this stage, the teen got some critical capacities, and start asking questions while the teacher often has only his manual to find an answers, so most of the questions a left unanswered.
A third dose in infused - sorry if my words seem shocking, it is really how i see the method - when the pupils are 16-17. At that stages, as the method of teaching has not evolved - same readings, documentary, unanswered questions, it is when Internet comes in play.

Another specific feature of France, which is very important, is that the teaching approach insists very much on the French national guilt: France, through the Vichy Regime, was an undeniable accomplice of the genocide. Whether we agree or not with this accusation, is not what matters.
There are two more fundamental problems with the shift (1996).
- It is at odd with what the previous generation had been told. So one can imagine a teenagers coming back home from his history class, saying "Daddy, we killed the Jews during world war 2" just to meet his dad explaining to him that "it is not true, you grand-father fought for his country against the Nazis".

- The new ethnic reality of France made this guilt seems unfair for at least 25% or more of the students who are from foreign origins, some of them of ethnicity which have themselves been a victim, even if only from colonialism and basic racism.

It is really challenging for me to explain this difficult issue in English. But to sum up, there is the way the Shoah is taught is basically a bad cocktail composed of Emotion, guilt, unanswered questions which then leads to skepticism. It is kind of "too little" and "too much" at the same time.
Going with what you are saying above, it seems to me that the European experience with this subject is vastly different to the United States. There is an immediacy to this subject that simply doesn’t exist in the US.

For France, there is the dual side of collaboration and resistance. French citizens assisted rounding up Jews while others hid them or took a role (active or passive) of resisting German occupation. The same can be said of most European countries with a big exception being Denmark or Great Britain (only because Gr. Britain was never occupied. But the Channel Islands were and British authorities cooperated in the roundup of Jews there). This excludes those that managed to remain neutral but even then there are extreme examples of neutral countries and their attitudes towards Jewish refugees (Sweden vs. Switzerland).

The US never had that problem, it was all a distant event. Now it seems US citizens get their history about this subject from movies like Schindler’s List. Those who want to learn more about don’t learn about it in school, they go elsewhere. This excludes those who wind up majoring in Genocide studies at a college or university level.

I never learned anything about this that I can remember at school. I went to elementary and middle school in Texas and high school in Oklahoma, it was never a requirement to read Anne Frank’s Diary or Eli Wiesel.

I think my difference was having a father who liked history. I read “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” in the Eighth Grade (not at school, just at home). I took classes on the Third Reich at the University, those classes dealt with the Holocaust as part of that so I read books at that time.

Balsamo, I don’t know what your level of knowledge is about the education system in the US. Essentially each state and district makes its own curriculum while the Department of Education only sets general guidelines.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:34 pm

In a nutshell, Americans in general are brainwashed with a lot of hollywood promoted lies. The Zionists control hollywood. Most Americans never mature to the point at which they become capable of questioned daddy's attempt to educate them. And daddy truly believed! As to France, there's lots of evidence that they sided with the Germans.

Try to find some reading material that has escaped the Zionist's revision of history.

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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:47 pm

From a nutcase, kernels of xenophobic nonsense and ignorance.
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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by Balsamo » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:48 pm

Jeffk:
Balsamo, I don’t know what your level of knowledge is about the education system in the US.
Very poor, i am afraid... :| Hey you even confused me when you wrote : college or University as i thought it was the same.

During my days, even the education at the University level was completely different between Europe and the US. I have learned only recently - i have left Europe over 10 years ago - that there have been a very important reforms in Europe, through my daughter actually.

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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by Denying-History » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:56 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Which brings me to one of the Texas State Board's recommendations which I've noticed buried in the media reports: removal of the Holocaust from the world history curriculum as one of the “major . . . events” of the World War II era. The Texas Holocaust and Genocide Commission opposed this recommendation in testimony at the Board's hearings on the proposals. Some commentators assume that in November's final package the Holocaust will be un-removed. It's unclear from the media reports, but there may be a reference to the Holocaust left in some TEKS referring to genocide, but not as part of the WWII history instruction.
This is far from the first time Texus has suffered under such issues, AronRa gave a speech a long time ago discussing attempts from the Texus board to white wash the history of slavery in the United states. They have also attempted to distroy science corriculums as well in away that can be considered "indoctrination" as AronRa puts it. Simply put - the Board in Texas is kinda {!#%@}.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by Reaktori » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:01 pm

I guess I could chime in to recollect how I was taught about the Holocaust in middle school (from a Finnish perspective): It covered the rise of the Nazis, and how Jews gradually lost their civil rights, but our only actual lesson on the holocaust involved only the camp layout and overview of Auschwitz-Birkenau. Definitely nothing about Einsatzgruppen or the Aktion Reinhardt camps.

There was literally nothing about it in High School either.

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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by Denying-History » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:16 pm

Reaktori wrote:I guess I could chime in to recollect how I was taught about the Holocaust in middle school (from a Finnish perspective): It covered the rise of the Nazis, and how Jews gradually lost their civil rights, but our only actual lesson on the holocaust involved only the camp layout and overview of Auschwitz-Birkenau. Definitely nothing about Einsatzgruppen or the Aktion Reinhardt camps.

There was literally nothing about it in High School either.
Finland has been a subject of interesting develupments as of the early 2000's. It was discovered they handed over some 70 Jews of different professions to the Germans during the war. From what I have heard there was a plan to deport 300 non-finnish Jews over to the Germans but that this plan was never met only having less then 1% actually be deported.

Another interesting thing is that a few Fins have also been connected with war crimes against Jews as well:
http://www.skhs.fi/suomalaiset-ss-miehe ... arikokset/
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:57 pm

Reaktori wrote:I guess I could chime in to recollect how I was taught about the Holocaust in middle school (from a Finnish perspective): It covered the rise of the Nazis, and how Jews gradually lost their civil rights, but our only actual lesson on the holocaust involved only the camp layout and overview of Auschwitz-Birkenau. Definitely nothing about Einsatzgruppen or the Aktion Reinhardt camps.

There was literally nothing about it in High School either.
I had to take specialized college courses where this was even mentioned. I learned far more on my own.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by Balsamo » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:07 am

montgomery wrote:In a nutshell, Americans in general are brainwashed with a lot of hollywood promoted lies. The Zionists control hollywood. Most Americans never mature to the point at which they become capable of questioned daddy's attempt to educate them. And daddy truly believed! As to France, there's lots of evidence that they sided with the Germans.

Try to find some reading material that has escaped the Zionist's revision of history.
Interesting...
If i may, i would like to benefit from your deep knowledge of Hollywood to understand why almost no movies had been made on the Holocaust, neither during the war nor after the war - until "the Holocaust" TV series in 1978.
It is not that Hollywood was not interested in world war 2 though. When i was kid i had a strange fascination for war movies, and i have seen most of them.

Quite the contrary, actually, the representation of the Nazis was more than indulgent, i must say - Zionist must have been of a very forgiving nature - like in the "Great Escape" (1963) - who did not feel sorry when the nice Luftwaffe colonel is arrested at the end?
In some case, they even dared to make German soldiers the main character of the movie, like the great "Cross of Iron" (1977) with James Coburn, or "The Eagle has landed" (also in the 70's) with Michael Caine...or even "the Bridge at Remagen" (69?) with a remarkable Robert Vaughn...

Any explanation?

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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:14 am

Balsamo wrote:Jeffk:
Balsamo, I don’t know what your level of knowledge is about the education system in the US.
Very poor, i am afraid... :| Hey you even confused me when you wrote : college or University as i thought it was the same.

During my days, even the education at the University level was completely different between Europe and the US. I have learned only recently - i have left Europe over 10 years ago - that there have been a very important reforms in Europe, through my daughter actually.
Let me confuse you even further.... :D

We have universities that are higher education but there are specialized departments at them that are called “colleges.” For example I went to the University of Oklahoma but the department where students go to become doctors is called the “OU College of Medicine.”

But in general when we talk about universities and colleges the difference between the two is universities offer undergraduate and graduate level programs. So, I got my undergraduate degrees in history and journalism from OU but after that I could get a masters and a PhD in a program that OU offers. So, if I wanted I could get a masters and a PhD in history.

Colleges are generally smaller. Some are quite well known, like Wesleyan College or College of William and Mary. My father attended The College of William and Mary.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:20 am

Balsamo wrote:
montgomery wrote:In a nutshell, Americans in general are brainwashed with a lot of hollywood promoted lies. The Zionists control hollywood. Most Americans never mature to the point at which they become capable of questioned daddy's attempt to educate them. And daddy truly believed! As to France, there's lots of evidence that they sided with the Germans.

Try to find some reading material that has escaped the Zionist's revision of history.
Interesting...
If i may, i would like to benefit from your deep knowledge of Hollywood to understand why almost no movies had been made on the Holocaust, neither during the war nor after the war - until "the Holocaust" TV series in 1978.
It is not that Hollywood was not interested in world war 2 though. When i was kid i had a strange fascination for war movies, and i have seen most of them.

Quite the contrary, actually, the representation of the Nazis was more than indulgent, i must say - Zionist must have been of a very forgiving nature - like in the "Great Escape" (1963) - who did not feel sorry when the nice Luftwaffe colonel is arrested at the end?
In some case, they even dared to make German soldiers the main character of the movie, like the great "Cross of Iron" (1977) with James Coburn, or "The Eagle has landed" (also in the 70's) with Michael Caine...or even "the Bridge at Remagen" (69?) with a remarkable Robert Vaughn...

Any explanation?
Plz don't forget the powderfull Hogan's Heroes evidence. :roll:
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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by Balsamo » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:09 am

:lol:

Right, forgot that one.

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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:03 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote: if I wanted I could get a masters and a PhD in history.
Self reflection could help here, you are probably old enough to act as an eye witness. No doubt at Lincoln's inauguration or the signing of the Magna Carta.
:D

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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:11 am

VFX wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote: if I wanted I could get a masters and a PhD in history.
ha ha ha ha ha :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Tell us why you think not.

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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:14 am

If s/he can find that box of crayons...
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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:16 am

scrmbldggs wrote:If s/he can find that box of crayons...
I was factoring in the slobber might have to dry first...

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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:28 am

VFX:
if I wanted I could get a masters and a PhD in history.
Self reflection could help here, you are probably old enough to act as an eye witness. No doubt at Lincoln's inauguration or the signing of the Magna Carta.
:D
Are you struggling with how this works?
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:32 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Are you struggling with how this works?
Well the Universities I know are credible. However, I think you can get a PhD at "Liberty University" with little effort. Kent Hovind got his there. Good Luck. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:37 am

Liberty is for today's Texan kids. :roll:
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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:40 am

VFX wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Are you struggling with how this works?
Well the Universities I know are credible. However, I think you can get a PhD at "Liberty University" with little effort. Kent Hovind got his there. Good Luck. :lol: :lol: :lol:
If you attended them and are stuck with your current belief systems I hardly call them credible.

Seriously, I thought Germany possessed a good educational system, WTF happened to you?
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:47 am

S/he didn't went to school there?
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Re: a memory thread: "(((they))) never let us forget"

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:55 am

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:Other than Dr. Terry I don't conscider anyone here as an authorotive holocaust studies figure. But people here are at the very least capble of distinguishing between real historigraphy and mouth-to-ear myths.
Sergey Romanov has done a lot of research in archives and knows this material in detail; ditto Roberto Muehlenkamp, although he's not posted here in quite a while. Whilst neither is a traditional academic, I consider both to be reliable and strong in various aspects of this history. None of which addresses this member's silly adolescent and knee-jerk problems with "authorities."
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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