Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

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Balsamo
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Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by Balsamo » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:50 pm

Ok, maybe it is not news for some of you, but it is pretty recent.
I had left opened my codoh page, and by checking around, i have noticed an unusual activity in a new thread...no less that 4 replies in just 2 weeks!
So i opened it.
the title:
" Ron Unz goes full on Revisionist: "Does anybody seriously believe something so totally ridiculous?" "
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11985

For Hannover the Tide has never turned that much before. So i followed the link:
Actually the article is quite a fair presentation of holocaust denial. It was posted on the 27th of August.
Since then, the comment section has 2184 entries which does not included reactions to those comments. So quite a substantial activity.

I did not know this mister Unz. According to Wiki a former Conservative politician of Jewish origin.

I have not yet taken the time to read it in full.

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:54 pm

"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by montgomery » Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:28 pm

Holocaust denial won't be dead until holocaust promotion is dead. And when holocaust promotion is dead then the Zionist apartheid regime will be dead. And that will be the end of America' need to support Israel and promote the holocaust legend. Indeed, new stories seem to be invented every day. Zionist kill needs to become overkill with topics such as the steaming, lobster style.

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by Balsamo » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:18 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:viewtopic.php?f=39&t=29690
Thanks
Nice to see the Holocaust crew is still alert.
Nevertheless 2184 comments are quite unusual. It must represent twice as much comment as post on codoh in the last 4 years- ;)

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:22 am

Balsamo wrote:Ok, maybe it is not news for some of you, but it is pretty recent.
I had left opened my codoh page, and by checking around, i have noticed an unusual activity in a new thread...no less that 4 replies in just 2 weeks!
So i opened it.
the title:
" Ron Unz goes full on Revisionist: "Does anybody seriously believe something so totally ridiculous?" "
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11985

For Hannover the Tide has never turned that much before. So i followed the link:
Actually the article is quite a fair presentation of holocaust denial. It was posted on the 27th of August.
Since then, the comment section has 2184 entries which does not included reactions to those comments. So quite a substantial activity.

I did not know this mister Unz. According to Wiki a former Conservative politician of Jewish origin.

I have not yet taken the time to read it in full.
I read that a couple of weeks ago. It’s the same ol’ BS in a new can.

Holocaust denial isn’t dead, it’s just gone brain dead and fled to Twitter.

RODOH still seems pretty active but CODOH is on its last legs. Hannover is responsible for killing it off.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:30 am

From the article:
They describe how some six million innocent Jewish civilians were deliberately exterminated, mostly in gas chambers,
Horseshit.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by Balsamo » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:32 am

Actually what stroke we was the amount of comment, most of them of denial inspiration. 2184 is huge by all standards considering it does not count the comments of comments...Which leads to another question, does the fact that Deniarism has become silent by lack of new arguments really means that there are less Deniers across the world?
Or that they are just forced to shut up.

Which is the main problem with this "political correctness" that is striking at least European countries. All those hatred maybe left unsaid, but how to be sure they don't still exist? I do prefer living in a society who let people speak out their hatred, at least it offers some clarity.
Restrain hatred will soon or later find a way to speak out loud, and we could be good for a nasty surprise how deep and strong those hatreds have become.

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:36 am

You know my feelings on this matter, Balsamo.

There’s an outlet for this stuff, the fact that there are so many comments shows us that. It’s just dumbed down. Visit Twitter and you will see what I mean.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by Denying-History » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:52 am

Is it dead? More or less to the point that It probably won't have a revival, and it has become an extremely far-right trend. I think Robert Kahn was correct in his conclusion to his 2004 book on the matter:
In the end, the only long-term solution to the problem of Holocaust denial is general acceptance that deniers will be part of the landscape for some time to come...It is an acceptance of the uncertainty of the law and of the occasional trial that fails to end in a clear repudiation of Holocaust denial. There are signs this acceptance is growing. Holocaust denial remains as entrenched as ever, but the scandals are on the wane. As Western European and North American societies become more accustomed to Holocaust denial, its power to shock is decreasing. To put it another way, Holocaust denial is slowly becoming old news. If this leaves major questions unresolved—especially as regards the relationship between Holocaust denial and a future right-wing revival—at least it offers hope that the era of free publicity for the deniers is rapidly coming to an end.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by VFX » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:32 am

A new survey suggests that many Asians, Africans, Middle Easterners, young people, Muslims, and Hindus believe that facts about the genocide have been distorted. ...2014 so not so new.
Image

The veracity of the holocaust is most pronounced in the Western countries which are the most Christianized and also those countries which enforce its adherence by law as in some European countries, such as Austria and Germany. Most Russians consider their "great Patriotic War" to be the holocaust with little deference given to the Shoah.

Revisionism is not dying, it is just less formal with many people accepting that it is a mere Jewish myth. CODOH is on its death knell, only due to the current administrator, (who is a prize jerk) while RODOH is humming along nicely with great Admins and Moderators. Other forums like Phora have little to say.

Revisionism is less in the spot light now, with only Jim Rizoli being quite active. Cole and Irving say little and well Fritz is just being himself. On You Tube most of the messages on anything holocaust are usually rejecting the Shoah and the Survivors. Seems to be far more deniers than those accepting, but that is just a casual observation.

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:38 am

VFX wrote: A new survey suggests that many Asians, Africans, Middle Easterners, young people, Muslims, and Hindus believe that facts about the genocide have been distorted. ...2014 so not so new.
Image

The veracity of the holocaust is most pronounced in the Western countries which are the most Christianized and also those countries which enforce its adherence by law as in some European countries, such as Austria and Germany. Most Russians consider their "great Patriotic War" to be the holocaust with little deference given to the Shoah.

Revisionism is not dying, it is just less formal with many people accepting that it is a mere Jewish myth. CODOH is on its death knell, only due to the current administrator, (who is a prize jerk) while RODOH is humming along nicely with great Admins and Moderators. Other forums like Phora have little to say.

Revisionism is less in the spot light now, with only Jim Rizoli being quite active. Cole and Irving say little and well Fritz is just being himself. On You Tube most of the messages on anything holocaust are usually rejecting the Shoah and the Survivors. Seems to be far more deniers than those accepting, but that is just a casual observation.
Are you aware of the term "sh*t floats"?
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:40 am

I don't think any reasonable mind would say that Holocaust denial is "dead". It is alive, but in a deep, perhaps undoable stalemate. Even today, HD is still around 90% based on stuff from the 80s, with very few new argument and ideas made later.
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:43 am

montgomery wrote:Holocaust denial won't be dead until holocaust promotion is dead. And when holocaust promotion is dead then the Zionist apartheid regime will be dead. And that will be the end of America' need to support Israel and promote the holocaust legend. Indeed, new stories seem to be invented every day. Zionist kill needs to become overkill with topics such as the steaming, lobster style.
Hey mate. I am actually an Israeli. Is there anything you would like to ask me, given your opinions?
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by VFX » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:53 am

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:I don't think any reasonable mind would say that Holocaust denial is "dead". It is alive, but in a deep, perhaps undoable stalemate. Even today, HD is still around 90% based on stuff from the 80s, with very few new argument and ideas made later.
This seems correct, though it is facts not ideas people want. With the rise of right wing politics in Europe due mainly to the immigration issues some radical parties are gaining traction. They call themselves National Socialist (but they are not): however, there may eventually be enough political sway to revoke the Denial laws and to demand proper forensic investigation at various places by independent professionals at such places as Auschwitz, Treblinka, Babi yar and so on. The Russians also need to be a little forthcoming as well. I mean if it really did happen there should be no objection to showing it properly and not just relying on eye witness testimony, most of who now have moved on.

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by ElectricMonk » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:54 am

Genocides have always been part of human history. The Holocaust is part of said history.
What I find almost more important to remember than the details of the mass-murder itself is the concerted effort of the victors to treat it not as part of War, but as a mass-scale capital crime.

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:07 am

VFX wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:I don't think any reasonable mind would say that Holocaust denial is "dead". It is alive, but in a deep, perhaps undoable stalemate. Even today, HD is still around 90% based on stuff from the 80s, with very few new argument and ideas made later.
This seems correct, though it is facts not ideas people want. With the rise of right wing politics in Europe due mainly to the immigration issues some radical parties are gaining traction. They call themselves National Socialist (but they are not): however, there may eventually be enough political sway to revoke the Denial laws and to demand proper forensic investigation at various places by independent professionals at such places as Auschwitz, Treblinka, Babi yar and so on. The Russians also need to be a little forthcoming as well. I mean if it really did happen there should be no objection to showing it properly and not just relying on eye witness testimony, most of who now have moved on.
I actully completley agree that Holocaust Denial should be legal, despite me not agreeing with it.
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by VFX » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:16 am

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
I actully completley agree that Holocaust Denial should be legal, despite me not agreeing with it.
That is fine, we are all trying to find the reality though feel we are pushed into a corner to deny when we know full well atrocities were committed from all sides. Just as when we think the Nazis did it, along comes Katyn for instance and find it is the Soviets. We are suspecting the Soviets did a lot of bad stuff still more to be revealed at the expense of many nationalities, Jude included. We know many Jude were Partisans and were shot as such. I am totally perplexed at the mass shooting near that beach at Latvia, so there is obviously more going on than just eliminating terrorists. Anyway it is good to talk with you, there are many other issues you may be interested in regarding the Syrian War and the West Bank and stuff. :)

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by nickterry » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:35 am

Balsamo wrote:Ok, maybe it is not news for some of you, but it is pretty recent.
I had left opened my codoh page, and by checking around, i have noticed an unusual activity in a new thread...no less that 4 replies in just 2 weeks!
So i opened it.
the title:
" Ron Unz goes full on Revisionist: "Does anybody seriously believe something so totally ridiculous?" "
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11985

For Hannover the Tide has never turned that much before. So i followed the link:
Actually the article is quite a fair presentation of holocaust denial. It was posted on the 27th of August.
Since then, the comment section has 2184 entries which does not included reactions to those comments. So quite a substantial activity.

I did not know this mister Unz. According to Wiki a former Conservative politician of Jewish origin.

I have not yet taken the time to read it in full.
If you look over the comments, about 340 of what is now 2,189 main comments come from 'Wally', who is quite clearly a sockpuppet of Hannover, the chief poster at CODOH forum. Many of the comments are arguing with Hannover's strict-denial approach, even if quite a few of them seem inclined towards David Irving-style positions. Others are unimpressed by 'strict-denial'. There were also other commentators with familiar names - Hegwood from CODOH forum, Jim Rizoli, to name a couple of examples. And some longstanding opponents of denial, like Andrew Mathis. The funniest thing I saw was one poster saying how the comments thread had generated massively more discussion than was seen at CODOH forum, hinting that the moderation there was too restrictive.

This fits with a familiar pattern - '"known" deniers turn up in comments threads, and even on right-leaning sites (Takimag, Breitbart) one will then find people who oppose strict-denialism; the same with comments threads some years ago on Counter Currents articles arguing to 'move past' the Holocaust, which caused outrage among the hardcore deniers like Carolyn Yeager and Hadding Scott.

There was a very interesting piece in Vox recently analysing the posting habits of members of the Q Anon subreddit The Great Awakening, showing that 210 members alone contributed 25% of the posts, 690 another quarter and 1,120 a third quarter, with 10,200 contributing the remaining 25%,while 42,000 signed up but did not post.

This pattern fits with what we see everywhere in forums, comments threads, and social media in general. Small minorities can generate a lot of noise, and create the impression that an idea/movement is somewhat bigger than it is.

All this said, Ron Unz's article does mark a minor coup for the deniers. Unz.com was always fairly denier-friendly, which is why 'Wally' has been posting there for some years. But the site is fairly popular, in the top 10,000 most visited websites in the US, with monthly views of just over 2 million, significantly more than CODOH website. It is now getting more traffic than rense.com, Veterans Today and Stormfront, which have similar rankings and estimated traffic results of 1-3 million in the past few years. Those sites have of course promoted Holocaust denial.

The rankings/traffic estimates are from Similarweb - different searches for mainstream and fringe sites show that 1 million visits/month (which will include repeat visits from the same people) equates to roughly the top 50,000 websites in the world, but there are really only a handful of websites at this level which have pushed denial at all - Press TV would be another, and until last year the Daily Stormer - at least in English/European languages.

The next tier of sites, down to circa #600,000 worldwide, have measurable traffic of more than 50K visits/month, Similarweb used to offer estimates down to a few thousand views/month so well into the millionth rankings, but no longer. There are somewhat more websites at this level which mirror/reproduce denier content, eg whale.to, along with a tiny handful of revisionism-specific sites: David Irving's site, the IHR, CODOH, VHO and Scrapbookpages, with +/- 100K visits/month.

Other denier sites do infinitely worse, with rankings often far below #1 million. The global rankings for nafcash.com, for example, have fluctuated between #15-32 million in 2016-2018. There are several dozen defunct 'revisionist' websites which have gone offline over the past decade - I found 21 dead 'revisionist' sites two years ago in 2016 when checking bookmarks accumulated over the preceding 10 years, and several more have died in the past two years.

I stand by my previous assessments - that the organised 'revisionist' movement has been in decline for some time, since the previous generation of activists have been literally dying, and are not being replaced very well, since younger names like Eric Hunt, BRoI, Thomas Kues, Friedrich Jansson who could have developed into the next Rudolf/Mattogno are either declaring apostasy or dropping out of the scene.

Growth among the cheerleader category is slow year on year - Ron Unz adds a new name to that list, and he joins the likes of James Fetzer, David Duke, etc, i.e. writers/politicians/activists who endorse 'revisionism' but who are known for other things as well. While one can find 'revisionists' in many scenes or political persuasions, outside of the extreme right they are always a very small minority; there are a few well known deniers in the Palestine solidarity movement, for example, but compared to the total number of anti-Zionist activists they are a tiny fraction. And even on the right, i.e. populist right and extreme right, then denial clearly isn't that interesting, and is deemed to be a less urgent issue than immigration or other concerns. There are exceptions - Greece/Golden Dawn, France, etc - to this pattern.

Denial is not dead, but it is not really growing. The 2014 ADL global survey of antisemitism that VFX highlighted illustrates one problem with assessing the growth of actual revisionism. The survey asked if those polled had heard of the Holocaust; in many countries large numbers said 'nope', only then were they asked if they thought it had been exaggerated, which generates larger percentages in many countries. But the 'exaggerated' option was contrasted with a 'myth' option, and there the percentages are extremely low. The 'myth' percentage corresponds to the hardcore revisionist position.

Germany (93% awareness)
Myth: 0%
Exaggerated: 11%
Accurate: 85%
Don't Know: 4%

Italy (98% awareness)
Myth: 0%
Exaggerated: 6%
Accurate: 86%
Don't Know: 8%

Sweden (99% awareness)
Myth: 0%
Exaggerated: 2%
Accurate: 96%
Don't Know: 2%

Switzerland (96% awareness)
Myth: 0%
Exaggerated: 6%
Accurate: 90%
Don't Know: 4%

United Kingdom (99% awareness)
Myth: 0%
Exaggerated: 6%
Accurate: 83%
Don't Know: 10%

France (87% awareness)
Myth: 2%
Exaggerated: 24%
Accurate: 67%
Don't Know: 7%

Russia (87% awareness)
Myth: 2%
Exaggerated: 24%
Accurate: 67%
Don't Know: 7%

United States (89% awareness)
Myth: 1%
Exaggerated: 6%
Accurate: 89%
Don't Know: 4%

Canada (91% awareness)
Myth: 0%
Exaggerated: 8%
Accurate: 90%
Don't Know: 3%

Australia (93% awareness)
Myth: 0%
Exaggerated: 8%
Accurate: 88%
Don't Know: 3%

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... rning.html

One can criticise the methodology/sample size of the poll, but it's fair to assume that the 0% for the UK etc corresponds to a 0.something percentage, i.e. reflects the fact that there might be some thousands of strict-deniers in those countries.

The 'exaggerated' position would correspond really to the hemming and hawing of David Irving, and is not really represented in mainstream or alternative media commentaries, since either there is acceptance or there is outright denial, with nothing much in between. The 'exaggerated' position might be where strict-revisionists can recruit from, but clearly there is a problem making converts from this larger, potentially sympathetic audience.

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:56 am

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
montgomery wrote:Holocaust denial won't be dead until holocaust promotion is dead. And when holocaust promotion is dead then the Zionist apartheid regime will be dead. And that will be the end of America' need to support Israel and promote the holocaust legend. Indeed, new stories seem to be invented every day. Zionist kill needs to become overkill with topics such as the steaming, lobster style.
Hey mate. I am actually an Israeli. Is there anything you would like to ask me, given your opinions?
Oh, this should be fun.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by VFX » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:59 am

nickterry wrote: The 'exaggerated' position might be where strict-revisionists can recruit from, but clearly there is a problem making converts from this larger, potentially sympathetic audience.
Very interesting and reflective post: thank you nickterry.
There seems to be many people who have taken the approach by Mr David Irving that some bad things did happen to innocent people (Jude, Gypsies, Gays, Slavs, Communists). It is known that SS-Sturmbannführer Konrad Morgan did investigate crimes at the camps including Karl-Otto Koch – Commandant of Buchenwald and Majdanek – executed for the murder of two hospital orderlies who had treated him for syphilis. This was the judgement of the "Blutrichter".
It is this "middle ground" that needs serious discussion but the dichotomy that has developed has prevented this. At CODOH, the instant this suggestion is made, the result is instant banishment from "Hargis", which is why that forum is dead: the administrator killed this. Friedrich also will not entertain that position and considers Mr Irving a Rueckzieher or a backslider.
It seems that for the most part people see the alleged Jüdische Todesfälle as part of the total calamity that was WWII. It is only a select group of people who are trying to stoke the embers of this tragedy. To the Russians 30 million of their own fell so they are not so concerned with the alleged Shoah: most people know that 70 million people perished and are asking why a selected group, even if 6 million did die are so special: why are they more special than the other 64 million who perished.

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:02 am

Balsamo wrote:Actually what stroke we was the amount of comment, most of them of denial inspiration. 2184 is huge by all standards considering it does not count the comments of comments...Which leads to another question, does the fact that Deniarism has become silent by lack of new arguments really means that there are less Deniers across the world?
Or that they are just forced to shut up.

Which is the main problem with this "political correctness" that is striking at least European countries. All those hatred maybe left unsaid, but how to be sure they don't still exist? I do prefer living in a society who let people speak out their hatred, at least it offers some clarity.
Restrain hatred will soon or later find a way to speak out loud, and we could be good for a nasty surprise how deep and strong those hatreds have become.
Having just read a somewhat dated book on Arab views of the Holocaust, concluding that denial is dead seems a bit American and European centric. The authors, Litvak and Webman, argue that Arab deniers ground their denial even less in study of history than American and European deniers and deploy denial as a political weapon even more. That said, because Arab deniers have relied so much on denier literature from American and European deniers and to some extent on contacts with them for their polemical writings, the dwindling output and poor organization of their western counterparts should have some impact on Arab deniers.

edits: damned typos
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:03 am

VFX wrote:
nickterry wrote: The 'exaggerated' position might be where strict-revisionists can recruit from, but clearly there is a problem making converts from this larger, potentially sympathetic audience.
Very interesting and reflective post: thank you nickterry.
There seems to be many people who have taken the approach by Mr David Irving that some bad things did happen to innocent people (Jude, Gypsies, Gays, Slavs, Communists). It is known that SS-Sturmbannführer Konrad Morgan did investigate crimes at the camps including Karl-Otto Koch – Commandant of Buchenwald and Majdanek – executed for the murder of two hospital orderlies who had treated him for syphilis. This was the judgement of the "Blutrichter".
It is this "middle ground" that needs serious discussion but the dichotomy that has developed has prevented this. At CODOH, the instant this suggestion is made, the result is instant banishment from "Hargis", which is why that forum is dead: the administrator killed this. Friedrich also will not entertain that position and considers Mr Irving a Rueckzieher or a backslider.
It seems that for the most part people see the alleged Jüdische Todesfälle as part of the total calamity that was WWII. It is only a select group of people who are trying to stoke the embers of this tragedy. To the Russians 30 million of their own fell so they are not so concerned with the alleged Shoah: most people know that 70 million people perished and are asking why a selected group, even if 6 million did die are so special: why are they more special than the other 64 million who perished.
Can I ask you why are you writing "Jude" instead of "Jews"? I mean, the rest of your writing is obviously in English, so why for this word you're using German? Hmmmmmm.
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:08 am

Two cheers or more for Sweden :)
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by VFX » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:16 am

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
Can I ask you why are you writing "Jude" instead of "Jews"? I mean, the rest of your writing is obviously in English, so why for this word you're using German? Hmmmmmm.
I do not like the English word and it is habit. :)

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:37 am

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:Can I ask you why are you writing "Jude" instead of "Jews"? I mean, the rest of your writing is obviously in English, so why for this word you're using German? Hmmmmmm.
Probably for the same reason he called one of those posting here "big nose" and told a member of this forum "go tell your Rabbi".
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:47 am

VFX wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
Can I ask you why are you writing "Jude" instead of "Jews"? I mean, the rest of your writing is obviously in English, so why for this word you're using German? Hmmmmmm.
I do not like the English word and it is habit. :)
Why go with a half measure? If I were you I'd say "Hände hoch Untermentsch".
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:49 am

thinking of the survey data Nick presented, the case of France, which we've touched on from other angles quite a bit, seems like a worthwhile topic (Balsamo, I'm looking at you!) for further discussion . . . France really stands out . . .
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by VFX » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:51 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:Can I ask you why are you writing "Jude" instead of "Jews"? I mean, the rest of your writing is obviously in English, so why for this word you're using German? Hmmmmmm.
Probably for the same reason he called one of those posting here "big nose" and told a member of this forum "go tell your Rabbi".
Well you were poking your nose into other peoples posts and so it was appropriate to discipline you. If I said to someone go tell your priest no one would blink and eyelid, so what is the difference? Are Rabbis somehow different to Priests or Ministers or are you bringing in cultural imperatives to this discussion.?

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by VFX » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:54 am

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
Why go with a half measure? If I were you I'd say "Hände hoch Untermentsch".
You got that a little wrong,it is: Hände hoch Untermensch or Hände hoch untermenschlich.
Not sure why anyone would wish to use a horrible phrase like this. Nazis perhaps but they are all gone. :)
I think just the SA used that phrase. The RSHA said Untermensch, hebe deine Hände, du bist verhaftet.
Last edited by VFX on Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:03 pm

VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:Can I ask you why are you writing "Jude" instead of "Jews"? I mean, the rest of your writing is obviously in English, so why for this word you're using German? Hmmmmmm.
Probably for the same reason he called one of those posting here "big nose" and told a member of this forum "go tell your Rabbi".
Well you were poking your nose into other peoples posts and so it was appropriate to discipline you. If I said to someone go tell your priest no one would blink and eyelid, so what is the difference? Are Rabbis somehow different to Priests or Ministers or are you bringing in cultural imperatives to this discussion.?
Why would you say "Rabbi" to someone who isn't Jewish?

Just FYI, there are exactly 2 Jews in this forum - one of them is me, the other one isn't StatMech, but someone who hasn't posted here for a long time.
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by VFX » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:08 pm

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
Just FYI, there are exactly 2 Jews in this forum - one of them is me, the other one isn't StatMech, but someone who hasn't posted here for a long time.
Well I am sure this forum as you know tolerates diversity and freedom of religious and political expression.

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:09 pm

I think with 100% probability of being correct there's another current poster who is Jewish. In fairness to VFX, his crack about "go tell your Rabbi" was aimed at Nessie, not me. But your question stands? And why on earth would anyone "go tell his or her" rabbi, priest, whatever that VFX is inventing fantasies instead of understanding history?
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by Balmoral95 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:11 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I think with 100% probability of being correct there's another current poster who is Jewish. In fairness to VFX, his crack about "go tell your Rabbi" was aimed at Nessie, not me. But your question stands? And why on earth would anyone "go tell his or her" rabbi, priest, whatever that VFX is inventing fantasies instead of understanding history?
I think you may be right. :lol:

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by VFX » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:14 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I think with 100% probability of being correct there's another current poster who is Jewish. In fairness to VFX, his crack about "go tell your Rabbi" was aimed at Nessie, not me. But your question stands? And why on earth would anyone "go tell his or her" rabbi, priest, whatever that VFX is inventing fantasies instead of understanding history?
We feel your reality is not reality, just the thoughts of crusty old toads who wrote books to prop up the official narrative and to make money. A historian who goes against the flow like Mr Irving, well faces the wrath despite excellent works of history prior to his demise. As Mr Netanyahu said publicly Jude have overplayed the holocaust hand, that is bankrupt. Some seem not to have got the message from their own leader.

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:31 pm

VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I think with 100% probability of being correct there's another current poster who is Jewish. In fairness to VFX, his crack about "go tell your Rabbi" was aimed at Nessie, not me. But your question stands? And why on earth would anyone "go tell his or her" rabbi, priest, whatever that VFX is inventing fantasies instead of understanding history?
We feel your reality is not reality, just the thoughts of crusty old toads who wrote books to prop up the official narrative and to make money. A historian who goes against the flow like Mr Irving, well faces the wrath despite excellent works of history prior to his demise. As Mr Netanyahu said publicly Jude have overplayed the holocaust hand, that is bankrupt. Some seem not to have got the message from their own leader.
Source?

BTW: Bibi isn't the leader of the Jews. He is the leader of Israel. Jews =/= Israel
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:33 pm

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:Can I ask you why are you writing "Jude" instead of "Jews"? I mean, the rest of your writing is obviously in English, so why for this word you're using German? Hmmmmmm.
Probably for the same reason he called one of those posting here "big nose" and told a member of this forum "go tell your Rabbi".
Well you were poking your nose into other peoples posts and so it was appropriate to discipline you. If I said to someone go tell your priest no one would blink and eyelid, so what is the difference? Are Rabbis somehow different to Priests or Ministers or are you bringing in cultural imperatives to this discussion.?
Why would you say "Rabbi" to someone who isn't Jewish?

Just FYI, there are exactly 2 Jews in this forum - one of them is me, the other one isn't StatMech, but someone who hasn't posted here for a long time.
There is one more, actually two more. One of them has not posted in some time.

It’s not me, BTW. But I have been told that I’m a good shabbos goy so I got that going for me.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:35 pm

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:
VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I think with 100% probability of being correct there's another current poster who is Jewish. In fairness to VFX, his crack about "go tell your Rabbi" was aimed at Nessie, not me. But your question stands? And why on earth would anyone "go tell his or her" rabbi, priest, whatever that VFX is inventing fantasies instead of understanding history?
We feel your reality is not reality, . . .
LOL so according to INCE's interlocutor it's all about "feelings"? My reality, which conforms to the reality, is that at least one additional current poster is Jewish, that's not a feeling, that's what I posted about and it's a fact - trying to change the subject is not even clever - INCE's spot on to address the abusive language issue here.
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by nickterry » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:56 pm

VFX wrote:
nickterry wrote: The 'exaggerated' position might be where strict-revisionists can recruit from, but clearly there is a problem making converts from this larger, potentially sympathetic audience.
Very interesting and reflective post: thank you nickterry.
There seems to be many people who have taken the approach by Mr David Irving that some bad things did happen to innocent people (Jude, Gypsies, Gays, Slavs, Communists). It is known that SS-Sturmbannführer Konrad Morgan did investigate crimes at the camps including Karl-Otto Koch – Commandant of Buchenwald and Majdanek – executed for the murder of two hospital orderlies who had treated him for syphilis. This was the judgement of the "Blutrichter".
It is this "middle ground" that needs serious discussion but the dichotomy that has developed has prevented this. At CODOH, the instant this suggestion is made, the result is instant banishment from "Hargis", which is why that forum is dead: the administrator killed this. Friedrich also will not entertain that position and considers Mr Irving a Rueckzieher or a backslider.
It seems that for the most part people see the alleged Jüdische Todesfälle as part of the total calamity that was WWII. It is only a select group of people who are trying to stoke the embers of this tragedy. To the Russians 30 million of their own fell so they are not so concerned with the alleged Shoah: most people know that 70 million people perished and are asking why a selected group, even if 6 million did die are so special: why are they more special than the other 64 million who perished.
Well, in Russia, the Holocaust is still generally subsumed into the bigger picture of the Great Patriotic War and the deaths of 26 million Soviet citizens; mainstream consensus would be that 10% of the total number of Soviet war deaths were part of the Jewish Holocaust, i.e. not more than 2.6 million. Many Holocaust killing sites (Ponary, Babi Yar, etc) also saw executions of non-Jews, so were obfuscated in Soviet times as places where 'peaceful Soviet citizens' of all nationalities were killed. Antisemitism in general is fairly high in Russia, so there is likely the perception by 25-30% of the public that the Holocaust is treated in a special way and thus 'exaggerated', but this hardly reflects reality, since official commemoration, education etc don't really push it heavily.

The 'middle ground' position isn't terribly coherent historically. The conventional view is that not more than 2.6 million Jews were gassed in the extermination camps; another 2.5 million were shot or died in ghettos/labour camps from starvation. Those who deny gassing also want to see the 2.5 million figure reduced down to whatever size they can tolerate emotionally/politically. Denial of gassing is strict-denial, not the middle ground. David Irving and David Cole both now argue that the Reinhard camps like Treblinka were real and were extermination camps, but are reluctant to admit they were wrong about Auschwitz. Technically they take a sort of middle ground position, but this is not regarded as coherent by the mainstream or by hardcore deniers.

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:09 pm

This - "Those who deny gassing also want to see the 2.5 million figure reduced down to whatever size they can tolerate emotionally/politically. . . . Technically they take a sort of middle ground position, but this is not regarded as coherent by the mainstream or by hardcore deniers." - seems really important to me: the Quest for a Better (Smaller) Mass Murder is not based on research and the historical record but for something that can be jammed into a package that is not only emotionally more tolerable but also thought to be more politically passable and useful for the agenda.
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial really dead ?

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:42 pm

VFX wrote:...Well you were poking your nose into other peoples posts...
Um.. yeah...er .... :laff:
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