The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

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The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:17 am

In yet another thread derail as the original topic goes bad for a denier, we get this;

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=29700&start=40#p662625
...The Soviet Union took over all of those countries and people: they were assimilated. Every Jew in every country was sucked into their regime. The probability of it not happening is so low as to defy credulity. All of those very much alive jews were dispersed according to Soviet Protocols. They were behind the Iron Curtain.
That claim has been made specific to the Hungarian Jews sent to Birkenau from May to July 1944 in that thread, but also about the Dutch Jews sent to Sobibor from March to July 1943. The claim is that the Soviets liberated and the assimilated those people, some c320,000 Hungarians and c34,000 Dutch lived on.

There are two obvious issues with the liberation and assimilation claim.

1 - the gap between March to July 1943, May to July 1944 and the arrival of the Soviets.
2 - the Soviets did not find camps full of Dutch or Hungarian Jewish people to liberate.

I think the first major camp liberated by the Soviets was Maly Trostenets in Ukraine in July 1944. It was virtually empty, many prisoners having been burned to death just prior to it being abandoned by the Nazis. Sobibor had been razed to the ground at the end of 1943. Auschwitz was liberated in January 1945. Around 6-7000 prisoners were found and no reports of many, if any of them being Hungarian or Dutch Jews.

Those two problems are repeatedly dodged by the deniers, so it is worth highlighting this nonsensical claim, rather than leave it buried in another thread.
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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:21 am

Majdanek was liberated by the Red Army in late July 1944. About 15,000 inmates had been rushed westward from the camp prior to this and most of the remaining 1,000 were hurriedly removed a day or so before. Majdanek doesn’t help VFX either.
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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:34 am

That is not the claim Nessie, Vesoz has put it clearly in the thread "Behind the Iron Curtain".

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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:37 am

Gibberish. Nessie stated your case better than comrade Vespa did. Your turn? Make sense of Vesoz’s rambling.
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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:09 am

VFX wrote:That is not the claim Nessie, Vesoz has put it clearly in the thread "Behind the Iron Curtain".
The claim there is;

"There has been much talk of mass murders, gassing of Jews and so on. ... But is this what really happened? ..."

"A clue comes from the Prolific Russian writer, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, who in his book The Gulag Archipelago speaks of Russian prisoners of war taken by the Nazis. In Stalin’s eyes those soldiers and other prisoners were contaminated and had no place in Russian Soviet society. When they came back home they were to be sent straight to the labor camps of frozen Siberia. Many Jews followed this path. This includes the Jews found interned in the Nazi Concentration Camps."

So, the Nazis found the Jews in the camps. But that is contradicted in the very next sentence;

"Estimates suggest there were approximately 250,000 Jews in the Nazi concentration camps when World War II ended including thousands and thousands of others. Many "liberated" people had no choice but to remain in the very camps where they were imprisoned."

Vesoz admits hardly any Jews were liberated and he has failed to notice, that most were liberated by the western Allies, not the Soviets. So, your claim that the Soviets liberated and assimilated is contradicted by Vesoz!
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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:16 am

Been There pointed out to everyone there were thousands of camps. Most of Jude were simply released apparently due to the imminent Soviet occupation. Prior to that there was a dismal attempt at relocation. Some people remained in camps. At the end of the day all of Eastern Europe was over run including all of the people and half of Germany. This is not just the camps but every house in every town and city, every barn yard, every hobbit hole.

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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:40 am

Nessie wrote:
VFX wrote:That is not the claim Nessie, Vesoz has put it clearly in the thread "Behind the Iron Curtain".
The claim there is;

"There has been much talk of mass murders, gassing of Jews and so on. ... But is this what really happened? ..."

"A clue comes from the Prolific Russian writer, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, who in his book The Gulag Archipelago speaks of Russian prisoners of war taken by the Nazis. In Stalin’s eyes those soldiers and other prisoners were contaminated and had no place in Russian Soviet society. When they came back home they were to be sent straight to the labor camps of frozen Siberia. Many Jews followed this path. This includes the Jews found interned in the Nazi Concentration Camps."

So, the Nazis found the Jews in the camps. But that is contradicted in the very next sentence;

"Estimates suggest there were approximately 250,000 Jews in the Nazi concentration camps when World War II ended including thousands and thousands of others. Many "liberated" people had no choice but to remain in the very camps where they were imprisoned."

Vesoz admits hardly any Jews were liberated and he has failed to notice, that most were liberated by the western Allies, not the Soviets. So, your claim that the Soviets liberated and assimilated is contradicted by Vesoz!
Yeah, total gibberish.
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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:45 am

VFX wrote:Been There pointed out to everyone there were thousands of camps. Most of Jude were simply released apparently due to the imminent Soviet occupation. Prior to that there was a dismal attempt at relocation. Some people remained in camps. At the end of the day all of Eastern Europe was over run including all of the people and half of Germany. This is not just the camps but every house in every town and city, every barn yard, every hobbit hole.
No, been-there didn’t point this out to everyone. The USHMM carries out research on the camps and camp system and publicized the results. Been-there is not even capable of understanding this research and I doubt he’s read it.

First, that research looked at each camp and what went on it and does not support what you claim. Guess how I know? I’ve read the research results and attended conferences where one of the project principals spoke.

Second, giving all the 42,000 camps a Jewish population is simply illiterate.

Third, there are massive chronology problems with what been-there and others of you claim, as Nessie has pointed out.

Fourth, the rough numbers of Jews from various places going to particular camps is well known. I see you wouldn’t take the Ten City Challenge related to this issue.
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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by Darren Wilshak » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:53 am

The day it gets out of its beer keller and does some research or attends a conference instead of wasting its time promoting lies and unserviceable speculations on the internet will be an interesting one then?

Chronology is never their strong point. They've been kicked to the floor over it so much its a wonder any of them cites any date whatsoever in these attempts and for want of a better word to describe the wittering.

'Efforts.'
"We are still waiting for anyone to rebut the main theme of the article that the decode in question and the numbers it quoted perfectly match those in the Korherr report.

Until such a rebuttal comes to light and goes through peer review the article stands the test of time. And after 10 years since the article was published both Peter (Witte) and I have moved on to other research projects. "

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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:54 am

The 42,000 camps gambit was inane when Berg first tried it - hard to believe this clown is promoting it as news.
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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by Darren Wilshak » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:59 am

'Berg.'

Say no more...
"We are still waiting for anyone to rebut the main theme of the article that the decode in question and the numbers it quoted perfectly match those in the Korherr report.

Until such a rebuttal comes to light and goes through peer review the article stands the test of time. And after 10 years since the article was published both Peter (Witte) and I have moved on to other research projects. "

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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:08 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:The 42,000 camps gambit was inane when Berg first tried it - hard to believe this clown is promoting it as news.
No one is promoting anything, I personally do not care. There were more camps than you know and within these camps were jews. Many were released or escaped when their captors fled. Eventually they ended up in Soviet hands and lands. Instead of reading silly books, why not write to Mr Putin who may help here. Most of your readings are most likely biased and stupid trash.

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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:12 am

VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:The 42,000 camps gambit was inane when Berg first tried it - hard to believe this clown is promoting it as news.
No one is promoting anything, I personally do not care. There were more camps than you know and within these camps were jews. Many were released or escaped when their captors fled. Eventually they ended up in Soviet hands and lands. Instead of reading silly books, why not write to Mr Putin who may help here. Most of your readings are most likely biased and stupid trash.
Translation: "I like being an ignorant twot."

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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by Darren Wilshak » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:13 am

It definitely does, that's why rodoh is its perfect growing medium.
"We are still waiting for anyone to rebut the main theme of the article that the decode in question and the numbers it quoted perfectly match those in the Korherr report.

Until such a rebuttal comes to light and goes through peer review the article stands the test of time. And after 10 years since the article was published both Peter (Witte) and I have moved on to other research projects. "

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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:29 am

VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:The 42,000 camps gambit was inane when Berg first tried it - hard to believe this clown is promoting it as news.
No one is promoting anything, I personally do not care.
Which is odd in that you raised the mistaken point, not me. So do you often bring up points you don’t care about? It seems more that when your vapid claims are refuted you pout and sulk and post ridiculous excuses.
VFX wrote:There were more camps than you know and within these camps were jews.
Please quantify these claims with evidence - how many more German camps were there than I know about and how many Jews were in each.
VFX wrote:Many were released or escaped when their captors fled.
How many Jews were released and how many fled? With sources and by camp, please.
VFX wrote:Eventually they ended up in Soviet hands and lands. Instead of reading silly books, why not write to Mr Putin who may help here.
How many? Refute the Grossman et al book I told you about.
VFX wrote:Most of your readings are most likely biased and stupid trash.
How would you, who proudly hasn’t read any of the books mentioned, know the first darned thing about those books?
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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:56 am

VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:The 42,000 camps gambit was inane when Berg first tried it - hard to believe this clown is promoting it as news.
No one is promoting anything, I personally do not care. There were more camps than you know and within these camps were jews.
Which camps were liberated by the Soviets and what was the number of people liberated?
Many were released or escaped when their captors fled.
Evidence please. Here is the evidence that did not happen;

http://www.holocaust.com.au/The-Facts/T ... th-Marches

and instead the Nazis forced the majority of prisoners west.
Eventually they ended up in Soviet hands and lands. Instead of reading silly books, why not write to Mr Putin who may help here. Most of your readings are most likely biased and stupid trash.
You don't have any reading at all. Nothing. You ignore the chronology problem and your lack of evidence.
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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:06 pm

Yeah among the studies he hasn’t read (and topics he is too biased to learn about) is Daniel Blatman’s The Death Marches which, while covering the KL system in general, has a wealth of information on Jews heading the “wrong way.”

It is glaringly obvious that he hasn’t yet answered your OP conceding Sobibor and Hungary or my post about Majdanek or my Ten Cities Challenge from another thread. Because he can’t.
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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:44 pm

Another point to bear in mind about the large number of camps: about three in four of the camps were forced labor camps.

Nazi forced labor camps predominantly or exclusively housed non-Jewish forced laborers - of the 13 million of these, around 4.5 million were POWs, mostly Soviet and French, and about 8.5 million were civilians, with the largest contingent coming from the occupied Soviet territories. These figures don’t help us get millions of Jews into the USSR.
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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by NathanC » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:47 pm

Thankfully, the fall of the Soviet Union and the opening of the Soviet Archives has given us access to the Soviets' top secret records of the categories of "Special Exile", i.e. various groups who were dispersed throughout the Soviet Gulag system and were kept track of. The breakdown goes something like this.

Chechen and Ingush - 400,478
Karachai - 60,139
Balkars - 32,817
Kalmyks - 81,673
Crimean Tartars, Bulgarians and Greeks - 193,959
Germans - 774,178
Mobilised Germans - 121,459
Former kulaks - 577,121
Turks, Kurds, Khemshims - 84,402
Ukrainian Nationalists - 29, 351
Volksdeutsche - 2,681
German Collaborators - 3,158
Orthodox Christians - 1,212
Lithuanians - 5,246
Vlasovites - 95,386
Source, N.Bugai, "The Devil comes at dawn", quoted in Steven Wheatcroft, German and Soviet repressions and mass killings.

This totals to about 2.4 Million. The declassified gulag stats show that in 1946, the Gulag population declined to 600,000 from a height of 1.4 Million in 1942.

So, Been-There's claim is nonsense. We have both the declassified gulag population stats, as well as the stats for "special exile". Neither of these support the notion that the Jews were actually dispersed throughout the Gulags. If they were, this would've surely been listed in the "Special Exile" statistics.

The Gulag population in 1942 and 1943 (983,974) does not support the silly notion that the Jews sent to the Reinhard camps in late 1942 to 1943 were actually sent to the USSR. Indeed, the decrease in the Gulag Population between 1942 and 1943, and onwards, dispels such a notion. There would have been a significant increase in the Gulag Population - some 1.2 Million if not more - if such a thing happened. Instead, there was a slow but steady decline.

Deniers are as ignorant about the USSR as they are about the Holocaust, if not moreso.

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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by NathanC » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:55 pm

Also worth mentioning are the stats for the Soviet Colonies, Special places of exile like the "Siberia" that dumb deniers like to whine about. The comprehensive records for the Soviet Colonies also don't support the notion that the Jews murdered at AR were actually sent to these places.

Between 1942 and 1944, the height of the Holocaust, the Soviet Colonies only saw an increase of about 200,000. From 361,447 to 516,255 in 1944.

This lie is beating a dead horse.

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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:12 pm

The massive killing wave of Jews in 1942 left pockets of Jews alive - 1000s for example in Lithuania, 10s of 1000s in former Poland, and sizable populations in several countries, the biggest of which, Hungarian Jews, was attacked by the Germans only in 1944. In Poland and the occupied east, OTOH, a massive emptying of the ghettos and camps had occurred by the end of 1943 with only remnants remaining in camps in the east, with a few exceptions, or at large.

In the KLs we see a bit of a different picture. Including Auschwitz IIRC about 1.5m Jews were taken into the KL system across the years. (I am at an airport typing from memory ... please correct what I misremember) About 1.1m Jews perished in the KL system - 965,000 at Auschwitz and 59,000 at Majdanek - almost all of them before 1945. The rest of the KL system was not built and maintained for the Final Solution and did not focus on Jews.

The year in which the KL population was largest was 1945 - at over 700,000 as against 520,000 inmates in 1944. A few 100s of 1000s of Jews were kept alive through the end months, despite the goal of extermination, as the Reich’s labor crisis worsened toward the end of the war and Nazi policy took a U-turn. Many of the KLs, including notorious collection centers for inmates evacuated ahead of the Red Army’s advance, were liberated not by the Red Army but by the Allies, famously for example Bergen Belsen of course. This is because the prisoners were mostly marched from eastern-lying to western-situated camps, in any away from the Red Army. Bergen-Belsen was only the most notorious of the camps that served as collection points for the prisoners moved from camps that lay closer the the Red Army. Deniers should recall Elie Wiesel’s choice to go west rather than remain in Birkenau or head east to the USSR.

Most of the surviving Jewish laborers in the KLs were in declining physical condition as were the non-Jewish forced laborers in these camps. By this time the AR camps had been closed for over a year and nearly all the ghettos of former Poland and the occupied east had been emptied and closed down, razed, or given new purposes.

There just weren’t enough Jews in the eastern camps at the time of liberation for VFX’s fanciful scenario to have been possible. Even if we didn’t have data about Jews in the Soviet Union and other contrary evidence, not only did what he claims not happen, it isn’t even plausible: it could not have happened
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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:11 pm

Is there any study of how many camps were liberated, how many were found empty, who liberated what camp and how many Jews and others were liberated from each camp?
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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:27 pm

Nessie wrote:Is there any study of how many camps were liberated, how many were found empty, who liberated what camp and how many Jews and others were liberated from each camp?
Wachsmann covers some of that in his final chapter, Blatman's book has a long part I that gives the most complete overview I can recall offhand. Others may know more.
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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:39 pm

This is adapted from a prior post discussing the range of evidence which should exist were a resettlement of the Jews carried out by the Nazis during 1942-1944. It is a case study showing, to build on NathanC's points about the Soviet end of the supposed pipeline, how the Soviets managed refugees and relocations. The case study involves the large-scale Soviet deportations of "disloyal" population groups to Siberia during 1941 prior to Barbarossa; and movement of Soviet citizens - mostly Jews - into the Caucasus from Ukraine and the Crimea but also from as far away as Moscow. Before discussing the case study, I've detailed the kinds of information that usually become available during population relocations/resettlements - the Nisko resettlement is another good case study during the relevant time period, although involving the Germans not Soviets.

Looking at actual, historical population relocations - ones that occurred during WWII, during the period we are interested in - we have planning and execution documents; business and bureaucracy transaction records; testimonies from authorities, those moved and observers; population studies; inventories; news reports; health reports; registration and census counts; etc. that enable us to answer basic questions about most of the following aspects of such operations:

* Planning and participants, feasibility studies
* Communication plan and distribution, briefings, bureaucratic participation
* Identification of groups to be moved
* Where relocated groups were to be moved from, numbers involved
* Deliberations, preparations relative to relocation places/sites, transactions as to land etc
* Reception preparations and processes including housing and infrastructure
* Disposition of property of relocated people, luggage permitted/taken with them
* Authorities in charge of relocation, transports, and reception
* What happened at the deportation locations
* Actual dates of relocation operations, arrival dates
* Conditions of journey
* Routes of transports and mode/means of transportation; arrangement for transport
* Registration of newcomers, census data, demographic composition, language issues, etc
* Authorities in charge of relocation site
* Conditions in new location on arrival
* Living arrangements – rentals, purchases, construction, furnishing
* Food and other basic supplies – on arrival, longer term
* Coordination with local authorities, implication for local government (citizenship etc)
* Economic factors – skills of relocated population, jobs and income in new home, etc
* Communication (postal etc) of relocated population to relatives, friends, etc
* News stories and public notice of relocation
* Problem solving and management of relocation process by authorities in charge
* Reactions of local authorities/agencies and population to newcomers
* Long term description of new settlements – where these people ended up in the long run

Any account of the supposed resettlement of the Jews proposed by deniers will need to include much evidence like that above and will need to cite a range of evidence.

Case Study

Large numbers of Jews did flee east in advance of Germany into the Soviet Union - and I have already linked to information about the numbers involved. The below discussion shows how the Soviets dealt with such population movements. Not to put too fine a point on it, we do not, however, have evidence for the Soviets responding to a resettlement operation or millions of Jews entering the USSR after the initial German onslaughts, during the height of the Final Solution, when Jews "disappeared" en masse from German territory and must be accounted for.

As Barbarossa unfolded, Jews fled, for example, into the Caucasus from Ukraine and the Crimea but also for as far away as Moscow, because German operations came to the region later. By fall 1941, over 200,000 people had taken refuge in the Caucasus; there were 6,627 children from orphanages among them. It is likely, based on statistical samples and testimonies, that 3/4 of these people were Jews. The demographic composition of these refugees was skewed, with high %'s of women, young children, and people over 60.

Refugees arriving in the region underwent registration - but many slipped past the registration process. Local authorities provided newcomers with food; lodging was found with local families as well as in state-owned buildings. At first, towns and rural communities were able to find work for the refugees. Later arrivals - late fall 1941 - were not so lucky, as it became progressively more difficult to find them employment. Refugees were assigned where to be, but many complained or simply went where they wanted (we know about this from documentation left behind by the Resettlement Department of the Executive Committee of Krasnodarskii).

Authorities were concerned that among the refugees might be enemy agents: a letter ("Directive letter of the Committee of the VKP(b) of Krasnodarskii krai on the work with the evacuees" from September 1941) complained about this danger ("Fascists dispatch inhabitants of the occupied areas . . . to the Red Army's rear. . . . It is necessary to check all the suspects thoroughly"). In early October 1941 the NKVD branch responded to this concern by ordering a blanket security check for all refugees coming to the region.

Another concern - on top of security and labor - was friction between newcomers and locals; authorities took steps to reduce these problems.

Also in fall 1941, the Soviet state authorities took measures to prevent the "permanent" settlement of the refugees in the communities they'd fled to. Registration of newcomers in these communities was forbidden and local officials were instructed to move those without work to places where important military or industrial concerns needed their labor. Eventually the military authorities, not local officials, were given responsibility for issuance of residency permits to newcomers. These measures were successful: a Soviet report found that of 226,000 newcomers to Krasnodarskii krai, by January 1942 only 51,353 remained, the rest dispatched to the interior.

By 1942 new issues affecting the Caucasus and evacuees arose; these included the fate of people in besieged Leningrad and other areas of the then-stabilized front, including the Crimea and Rostov. The state authorities undertook purposeful evacuations from endangered areas to the Caucasus, seen as a safer region at the time. In these evacuations were many Jews - but unlike the earlier 1941 influx, this time the evacuations were planned and organized. Even so, employment remained an issue in the targeted areas (many in Stavropol'skii krai). About 113,000 newcomers - the % of Jews is not known but likely less than half - came to the Caucasus in this organized flight.

The point to this is that evidence for these 300,000-400,000 people evacuating to the region exists. We can use it to estimate the % of Jews; chart out employment; understand how people were accommodated; speak to Soviet policies regarding refugees; and understand where people went subsequently to their initial flight. This is the sort of documentation that would exist for any migration of millions of Jews into the Soviet Union - and it would exist on a larger scale for any postwar influx of European Jews into the USSR.

There is, however, and sadly for VFX's speculation, no evidence of millions of Jews being relocated to the Soviet Union at the war's end; in fact, there were repatriations of Jews who'd reached the Soviet Union back to the west.

source: Feferman, The Holocaust in the Crimea and the North Caucasus (2016) pp 81-90
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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:48 pm

Of course, none of that information exists at all for the alleged time the Jews spent in Nazi custody prior to the alleged liberation by the Soviets.

The Jews of Kiev, c33,000 of whom were supposedly resettled after they gathered at Babi Yar in September 1941, must have spent at least 3 years in Nazi captivity until the Soviets arrived. That is assuming they were resettled in the general area.
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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:52 pm

It was the NKVD that probably caused the destruction if there was any at Babi yar. The arrival of the Germans probably saved quite a few of them.

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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:57 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Gibberish. Nessie stated your case better than comrade Vespa did. Your turn? Make sense of Vesoz’s rambling.
You can say the evidence isn't true but you diminish yourself when you resort to using words against Vesoz as gibberish and rambling.

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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:09 pm

Nessie wrote:Of course, none of that information exists at all for the alleged time the Jews spent in Nazi custody prior to the alleged liberation by the Soviets.
Which is ironic because it does exist for actual Nazi resettlements.
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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:13 pm

VFX wrote:It was the NKVD that probably caused the destruction if there was any at Babi yar. The arrival of the Germans probably saved quite a few of them.
Uh oh:
nickterry wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:I consider all the points in my original post to still be valid.
Monstrous is free to consider anything he wishes. He hasn't provided a scintilla of proof for his claim of Soviet forgery. We don't have a date when the reports are forged, we don't have names of forgers and places for the forgery, we have no orders - verbal or written - for the forgery operation, we don't have an explanation of how/where/when the reports were disseminated, we have no explanation for the obvious problem of "traces" of the reports in other archives and files.

I consider Monstrous to be an inept clown who can't even answer a straightforward question - support a claim with sources and explanation, not vague hypotheses about what might have happened.
Regardless, we know that for example the Babi Yar massacre and the EG reports on that massacre is a hoax and a forgery based on air photos...
Sigh. Prove it. By "prove it" I do not mean post a shitload of unrelated links. I mean, make a case and support it.
The faked Babi Yar massacre and therefore the faked EG reports on this massacre are mentioned in practically every recent article and revisionist book on the EG. You must know the arguments so I see no need to go copy them here (but can copy a link if insisting). Do you have any attempted answers or not?
Revisionist claims about Babi Yar haven't advanced in almost 25 years - the "mentions" in recent revisionist articles and books are simply repetitions. Ball's air photo claims were examined and debunked almost exactly eight years ago:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... onism.html

The appeal to standard revisionist literature can of course be turned on its head: in the past 25 years historians have continued researching and gathering sources about Babi Yar that were not necessarily known when Ball et al first came up with their drivel. Revisionists ought to be explaining the sources and keeping up to date with the available evidence.

There are over 60 contemporary sources on the BY massacre, the following listing compiled back in November 2012 by me does not include an Abwehr report from the Rovno area that recorded hearsay about the action in November 1941 nor does it include several Polish underground reports likewise registering hearsay of a major massacre at Kiev.

RSHA Sources

1. Ereignismeldung UdSSR 97, 28.9.41 - planning of action

2. Ereignismeldung UdSSR 101, 2.10.41 - carrying out of action, brief reference

3. Ereignismeldung UdSSR 106, 7.10.41 - carrying out of action, more extensive report

4. Ereignismeldung UdSSR 111, 12.10.41 - SK4a bodycount reached more than 51,000, referring back to action

5. Taetigkeits- und Lagebericht der Einsatzgruppen Nr 6, covering 1-31.10.41 - repeating details from the Ereignismeldungen

Foreign Office Sources

6. Summary of TuLBs by Undersecretary of State Martin Luther of Foreign Office, cited by Browning/Origins of the Final Solution, p.204

HSSPF Russland-Sued Sources

7. HSSPF Russland-Sued, Lagebericht, 28.9.41, Military History Archive Prague, Kommandostab RFSS files - "Pol.Rgt. Sued Saeuberungsaktion und Absperrdienst in Kiew"

8. HSSPF Russland-Sued, Lagebericht, 30.9.41, Military Historical Archive Prague, Kommandostab RFSS files - "Pol.Rgt.Sued weiterhin Sicherungsdienst in Kiew und Durchfuehrung von Aktionen nach Kriegsbrauch"

Wehrmacht Sources

9. Report of Oberst Erwin Stolze of the Abwehr, 23.10.41, NOKW-3147, referring to massacre of Jews at Kiev and transmission of information by Hauptmann Hans Koch, liaison officer of the Ostministerium to Army Group South, as well as questioning of Koch by foreign journalists visiting Kiev in October 1941.

10. Report of Hauptmann Hans Koch, liaison officer of the Ostministerium to Army Group South, 5.10.41, regarding situation in Kiev, describes massacre, 053-PS, original in GARF 7445-2-138

11. Propagandakompanie (mot) 637, Taetigkeitsbericht fuer den 25. und 26. September 1941 - printing up of 2000 placards ordering Jews "sich an einem bestimmten Ort zu melden" - BA-MA RH20-6/492, p.18, facsimiled in Verbrechen der Wehrmacht, p.162

12. Besondere Anordnungen fuer die Versorgung, Versorgungsbezirk Sued, Nr 132, 27.9.41, BA-MA RH3/v.174, supply of 100,000 rounds of ammunition to HSSPF Russland-Sued

13. 113. Infanteriedivision Ic, entries in activity report of 27.9.1941 and 3.10.1941, BA Ludwigsburg Dok-Sammlung Verschiedenes IX, p.58ff; reports noting tasking of pioneer battalion to blow up ravine sides over the grave

14. 454. Sicherungsdivision Abt VII, Taetigkeitsbericht 1-10.10.41, NOKW-2129 and BA-MA RH26-454/28, referring to massacre, preparations and aftermath

15. Armeeoberkommando 6 Ic/AO, Taetigkeitsbericht, 3.10.41, BA-MA RH20-6/493, p.240, meetings with SK4a officers

16. Propagandakompanie (mot) 637 an AOK 6, 10.11.41, BA-MA RH20-6/494, p.215ff, notifying army of photos taken by command, including photo of town commandant Eberhard with HSSPF Russland-Sued Friedrich Jeckeln in Kiev, interesting partial corroboration of Ereignismeldungen detail of meetings between Jeckeln, Rasch, Blobel and Eberhard

17. Reichenau Order of 10 October 1941, issued by commander of 6th Army, explicitly exhorting soldiers to have full understanding of the harsh measures against Jews in his sector

18. “In Kiev,” Cpl. LB wrote on September 28, “mines explode one after the other. For eight days now the city is on fire and all of it is the Jews’ doing. Therefore all Jews aged 14 to 60 have been shot and the Jewish women will also be shot, otherwise there will be no end to it.” - quoted in Saul Friedlander, The Years of Exetermination, p.293, from published field post letters of German soldiers.

Collaborator Sources/in Ukrainian Language

19. Placard ordering Jews to gather on 28 September 1941

20. Ukrainian Police commander of Kiev, Order No 5, n.d, after 29.9.41, TsADAHOU 1-23-121, p.6, reproduced in Die Verfolgung und Ermordung der europaeischen Juden Bd.7, pp.304-5, ordering all house block administrators to report any Jews to the nearest police station

21. Ukrains'ke Slovo, Nr 29, 10.10.41, p.4, ordinance of town administration of Kiev of same date, reproduced in Die Verfolgung und Ermordung der europaeischen Juden Bd.7, pp.314-5, ordering that property of Jews be gathered by commissions

Soviet sources

22. Diary of teacher L. Nartova, TsADAHOU 1-22-347, pp.1-3, reproduced in Die Verfolgung und Ermordung der europaeischen Juden Bd.7, p.296

23. Diary of Irina Chorosunova, published in Erhard Wiehn (ed), Die Schoah von Babij Jar, p.292ff

24. Joint report by 18th and 8th Soviet Armies to Political Administration of the Southern Front, 15 January 1942, TsADAHOU 62-9-4. pp.149-155, reproduced in Verfolgung und Ermordung Bd 7, pp.415-9, describing massacre based on eyewitness testimonies of escaped prisoners, noting 'active support of Black Hundreds and Ukrainian nationalists' (i.e. collaborators)

Neutral Sources

25. Aussage eines Wehrmachtdeserteurs, verhoert durch den Einvernahmeoffizier 'Schangau' am 26.2.42, Swiss EMD E27, Dossier 8430, reproduced in Verfolgung und Ermordung Bd 7, pp.441-3, detailed description of Zhitomir action carried out by SK4a, hearsay about action at Kiev

26. Bericht aus Deutschland, November 1941, received by Swiss Bundesanwaltschaft on 13.12.41, BAr Akten der Bundesanwaltschaft E 4320 (B) 1968/195; C.2.8, more hearsay

27. Bericht 8548/d. 444, March 1942, in EMD E 27, 9228, Bd.3, Luftwaffe deserter (Stuka pilot), reporting murder of 40 000 Jews, 'Abmarsch in die Sandgruben: Erschossen. Waende der Sandgruben gesprengt, sodass Massengraeber entstanden'. Interesting knowledge of exact details.

Photographic Sources

28-56: Johannes Haehle's photos

57: German soldiers with clothing, 29.9.41, from BY massacre, different photograher - ЦДКФФАУ, од. зб. 0-11410.

58. German soldiers sorting clothing,29.9.41, from BY massacre, closer to ravine, different photographer - ЦДКФФАУ, од. зб. 0-11411.

I doubt the above is complete, because I've not bothered to look up the sources cited in 2 journal articles on the BY massacre and Wehrmacht complicity.

It doesn't include the hundreds of witness testimonies gathered in about a dozen West German investigations into Sonderkommando 4a, Pol.Btl 45, Pol.Btl. 303, and Sonderkommando 1005, and in at least five Soviet investigations (post-liberation, Kiev trial in 1945, a 1950 investigation, a 1960s one, and one in 1980).

Nor does it include the fact that news of the massacre leaked to the outside world within 2 months. But let's add a few of those, since these reports leaked in multiple directions and cannot be traced back to a single source.

Contemporary Newspaper Reports

59. Krakiwski Wisti, Ukrainian collaborator paper in Cracow, reported by Jewish Telegraphic Agency on 21 October 1941 (dateline London 20 October 1941) saying that the Jews had been driven out of Kiev, 'the last Jew was expelled from Kiev on September 29'.

60. Fred Oechsner, United Press Bureau chief in Berlin, New York Herald Tribune article of 29 October 1941, reporting German sources about liquidations of Jews in Kiev, Zhitomir, Cherson, also noting that 'the Ukrainians took care of matters'.

60a. Neue Zuercher Zeitung, 30 October 1941, 'Eindruecke aus Odessa', reprint of report of United Press correspondent travelling over Ukraine: 'Im Laufe unserer Reise hoerten wir oft von deutschen und rumaenischer Seite von summarischer Behandlung der Juden in Kiew, Shitomir, Cherson und anderen Orten, und die Deutschen erzaehlten haeufig, dass die Ukrainer selber die Sache in die Hand genommen haetten'.

61. Felice Bellotti, “Le mine ‘assassine’ di Kiev,” La Stampa (Turin), October 31, 1941, p. 3 - Italian journalist visiting Kiev in October 1941 on the same tour, told by city administration that all the Jews had gone, and wondered where. See here for more. The 30 journalists taken to Kiev also asked Hauptmann Koch about the massacre, see document 9 listed above.

61a. By contrast, the remarks by the city administration were not mentioned in Alex Small, “Ruins of 5 Day Blaze – Kiev’s War Reminder,” Chicago Daily Tribune, October 23, 1941, p. 1.

62. Jewish Telegraphic Agency report of 16 November 1941 about massacre of 52,000 Jews in Kiev

62a. Pravda and Izvestiia, 19 November 1941, reporting massacre of 52,000 Jews in Kiev, repeated in Pravda, 29 November 1941. Counted as same root source - JTA correspondent probably learned the information from same informant in Kuibyshev/Moscow, but was able to publish.

63. JTA report of Russian eyewitness who had escaped across Soviet lines, confirming massacre, 28 August 1942.
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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:15 pm

That has been read, with the German involvement similar to that of Katyn. Another Soviet conspiracy and propaganda exercise.

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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:19 pm

VFX wrote:That has been read, with the German involvement similar to that of Katyn. Another Soviet conspiracy and propaganda exercise.
Show us the proof. I just gave you a list of sources showing you to be wrong. What do you have to suppprt your claim - what’s your evidence that the NKVD perpetrated this?
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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:45 pm

Mass reprisals from Stalin for political purposes.

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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by NathanC » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:48 pm

Whining about the Soviets “faking” Holocaust massacres doesn’t cut it since it can be shown that the Soviets didn’t Fake or promote Holocaust massacres. Unlike Katyn, where effort was taken to pin their crime on the Nazis, the Soviets avoided emphasizing the Murders against the Jews. They started by ignoring the anti Jewish murders and painting them as “Anti Soviet” killings, and later neglected the massacre sites and banned all remembrance. Just like the easily disproven claim that the Jews were actually sent to the Gulags, this nonsense is beating a dead horse.

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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:48 pm

VFX wrote:Mass reprisals from Stalin for political purposes.
Do you seriously think or expect anyone to believe that you think that you have replied to a request for evidence?
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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by NathanC » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:49 pm

VFX wrote:Mass reprisals from Stalin for political purposes.
Again, this nonsense doesn’t work since Babi Yar, like most massacres against Jews in the USSR, was avoided and covered up by the Soviets.

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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:50 pm

Not to mention reported as a German action in German documents.
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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:51 pm

Nonsense Nathan, the reprisals at Babi yar were NKVD against political prisoners; they could not care if they were Jew or just another mutt. Perhaps there was another massacre at Babi yar by the Germans but highly unlikely. Your reasoning is circular: the Soviets did reprisals, not fake holohoax massacres: these were the true nasties not the Nazis. You have been reading too much bs and not enough true reflection. You may need to understand the Soviet mindset a little better.

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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by Darren Wilshak » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:54 pm

Its got a kneejerk response to research and evidence?

Its lost its power of independent thinking?

Somewhat outmoded model.

Now troll number one, did it ask Hans anything or is it still whining in a uninformed manner?
"We are still waiting for anyone to rebut the main theme of the article that the decode in question and the numbers it quoted perfectly match those in the Korherr report.

Until such a rebuttal comes to light and goes through peer review the article stands the test of time. And after 10 years since the article was published both Peter (Witte) and I have moved on to other research projects. "

AHF

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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:55 pm

@VFX - You haven’t yet had a thing to say about the extant evidence regarding Babi Yar or offered any evidence for your case. This is a theme with you.
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Re: The Soviet liberation and assimilation claim.

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:57 pm

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/BabiYar/Nikiforuk.html

In February 1997 a Ukrainian court threw out a case brought by Ukrainian Jews against V. Kretytnychy of the St. Andrew Society and E. Musiyenko, editor of the Kiev Evening News (Vechirnyi Kyiv), who challenged the official Babi Yar story. Encouraged by the court decision, on March 19, 1997 the Kiev Evening News published a four-page story setting the record straight for the first time since the Allies condemned the phony "atrocity" during World War II.

What is now coming to the fore is incontrovertible proof that no massacre took place at Babi Yar during the German occupation of Kiev; that the ravine was not used as a mass grave for Jews killed by the Germans. But it was a burial field between 1922-1935 for the victims of the Cheka/NKVD.