No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by Darren Wilshak » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:46 pm

Now is troll number 1's big chance, Hans is on the board currently.
"We are still waiting for anyone to rebut the main theme of the article that the decode in question and the numbers it quoted perfectly match those in the Korherr report.

Until such a rebuttal comes to light and goes through peer review the article stands the test of time. And after 10 years since the article was published both Peter (Witte) and I have moved on to other research projects. "

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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:47 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote: It doesn't believe its own lies, does it?
Nessie does have issues with his lying, but at least he contributes. You do stuff all... get back under your stone.

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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:48 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote:Now is troll number 1's big chance, Hans is on the board currently.
Is Hans the "shadow on the wall"? Scary aye.

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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:53 pm

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:
The mass murder conclusion is not from the photos, it is from documentary and witness evidence.
Please link up the time and date of the photo, with the IDs of the alleged victims and the signed affidavits of the eyewitnesses testifying to that moment of time when genocide took place.
But you cannot even evidence they left Birkenau. Otherwise, there would be long lines of people leaving the camp.......
You are well aware that people came to and from Birkenau via transports. Your Dutch witnesses have spoken of that. Why on earth would you think people walk hundreds of km when they can catch a nice train.
Which Dutch witnesses? The ones whose testimony about, er, Sobibor you failed to understand?
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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:54 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote:Deniers hung up on photos again? It doesn't believe its own lies, does it?
So far it has left little evidence to conclude it being a champion of rationality....
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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:01 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Darren Wilshak wrote:Deniers hung up on photos again? It doesn't believe its own lies, does it?
So far it has left little evidence to conclude it being a champion of rationality....
Go fry yourself.

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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by Darren Wilshak » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:03 pm

Its a champion of its won fail troll, that much is sure.
"We are still waiting for anyone to rebut the main theme of the article that the decode in question and the numbers it quoted perfectly match those in the Korherr report.

Until such a rebuttal comes to light and goes through peer review the article stands the test of time. And after 10 years since the article was published both Peter (Witte) and I have moved on to other research projects. "

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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:07 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote:Its a champion of its won fail troll, that much is sure.
That sentence is utterly incoherent. Make a good tongue twister after a bottle of vodka.

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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:11 pm

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:
The mass murder conclusion is not from the photos, it is from documentary and witness evidence.
Please link up the time and date of the photo, with the IDs of the alleged victims and the signed affidavits of the eyewitnesses testifying to that moment of time when genocide took place.
For the photo of 25th August 1944, from which the detailed images are from;

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... kenau.html

the arrivals were two trains from Lodz bringing Polish Jews from the ghetto, based on those who were registered to work that day according to Birkenau records;

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/glaser.htm

and witnesses for that being Henryk Tauber and Shlomo and Abraham Dragon;

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=82890

and that is the same month the Sonderkommado photos of what was happening outside krema V were taken;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderkom ... hotographs
But you cannot even evidence they left Birkenau. Otherwise, there would be long lines of people leaving the camp.......
You are well aware that people came to and from Birkenau via transports. Your Dutch witnesses have spoken of that. Why on earth would you think people walk hundreds of km when they can catch a nice train.
They had been selected at Sobibor to go to Auschwitz to work.
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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:14 pm

montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:I think that this series of images, of prisoners entering a barracks (lower left), shows how quickly people can be marched into a building;

Image

Think how fast the plane was moving and how long between each image and they must be going at a fair pace. Irrespective of there being elderly people and children, this is the point people are being driven to their deaths and so they will be forced to move as fast as possible.
Can you explain the point you're making? People can run but some people can't. I think I can imagine how fast or slowly people can be taken into a barracks. And also imagine how much warning they would have been given by the air raid alarms. It's also dependent on the number of people.
The point is that it is unlikely that a plane would have photographed people entering the kremas, as it only happened a few times a day and each time the queue did not last very long.
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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:18 pm

How long do you think it would take to get 2000 people down a set of stairs.? There still would be one plane photo, one from a spy somewhere. Nothing just the lie witnesses. The SS have photos from all over the camp, all except there, people taking a shower below ground.

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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:35 pm

Has it been established that there were gassings going on at all times of reconnaissance flyovers?
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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:40 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Has it been established that there were gassings going on at all times of reconnaissance flyovers?
Somebody did some work on this and I'll be damned if I can remember who it was.

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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:48 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Has it been established that there were gassings going on at all times of reconnaissance flyovers?
Use your yolk, 10 000 a day and no fly overs in allied dominated airspace. Oh please spare me the albumin. :D :D :lol:

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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:51 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Has it been established that there were gassings going on at all times of reconnaissance flyovers?
Somebody did some work on this and I'll be damned if I can remember who it was.
Well, I can tell you who did not. :heh:
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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:52 pm

VFX wrote:How long do you think it would take to get 2000 people down a set of stairs.? There still would be one plane photo, one from a spy somewhere. Nothing just the lie witnesses. The SS have photos from all over the camp, all except there, people taking a shower below ground.
The evidence is that each train load was maybe up to 2000, but that was then split up and the people not selected to work were taken to the kremas in groups that were much smaller. There was no queue of 2000 at a time waiting to get into a krema.

The planes only ever flew over the camp and photographed it in about 8 days over about 9 months. They were maybe a few minutes over head.

The SS took some photos of the selection process on one occasion, that is all.
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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:57 pm

Nessie wrote:
VFX wrote:How long do you think it would take to get 2000 people down a set of stairs.? There still would be one plane photo, one from a spy somewhere. Nothing just the lie witnesses. The SS have photos from all over the camp, all except there, people taking a shower below ground.
The evidence is that each train load was maybe up to 2000, but that was then split up and the people not selected to work were taken to the kremas in groups that were much smaller. There was no queue of 2000 at a time waiting to get into a krema.

The planes only ever flew over the camp and photographed it in about 8 days over about 9 months. They were maybe a few minutes over head.

The SS took some photos of the selection process on one occasion, that is all.
2000 gassed at a time, 10 000 in a day, that is the evidence online by your liewitnesses. Now you are altering the official narrative, you naughty thing.

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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:08 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Has it been established that there were gassings going on at all times of reconnaissance flyovers?
The photos of May, June, July and August coincide with the time gassings are known to have been taken place, with the Hungarians, then the Lodz ghetto clearance. But, the June photo was taken during a pause in the Hungarian transports, so it may not have been when there was a mass gassing. The dates of the photos, the number of selections for work and who was selected are;

31/05/44, 2 large selections of Hungarian Jews
26/06/44, 1 small selection of "Jewish Mischling"
08/07/44, 5 large selections of Hungarian Jews
20/08/44, 1 large selection Lodz Ghetto Jews
23/08/44, 1 large selection Lodz Jews
25/08/44, 2 large selections Lodz Jews
13/09/44, 1 large selection Polish Jews (3 transports from the Pruszkow transit camp)
29/11/44, krema closed
21/12/44, krema closed
04/02/45, krema closed
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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:17 pm

Hans Metzner, at HC, wrote this over 3-/12 years ago: John Ball's Air Photo Evidence on Auschwitz
Cremation Activity

The aerial photographs provide snapshots from Auschwitz-Birkenau. In the period from May to October 1944, aerial reconnaissance flights took one or few consecutive photographs on sevens days of this site. Several seconds of the history of Auschwitz-Birkenau were captured by Allied and German air planes from above on these days.

According to Holocaust deniers, the aerial photographs supposedly refute that mass extermination was taken place at the camp. The extent of visible smoke would not correspond to large scale body disposal activity:
"1944 photos show no smoke coming from chimneys, and only little smoke from outdoor fires."
(APE3, p. 94)

On 26 June and 13 September 1944, no large scale killings are reported for Auschwitz-Birkenau (according to Czech's Kalendarium as well as the so called Glaser list), and thus no extermination activity is expected on aerial photographs of these days anyway. For 26 June 1944, this was previously pointed out by John Zimmerman:
"The best known of these photos was taken on June 26, 1944. It shows the whole Auschwitz complex which consisted of three main camps: the Birkenau camp where the gas chambers and crematoria were located, the Auschwitz main camp, and Monowitz area of the camp where industrial production occurred. The Birkenau area of the camp shows no activity. However, on this particular day there were no arrivals from Hungary."
(Zimmerman, Holocaust Denial, p. 50, my emphasis)

Thomas Dalton is the author of Debating the Holocaust. He also read Zimmerman's book, and in fact quoted what I emphasised above. As to leave no doubt that he is not a curious sceptic, but just another stubborn Holocaust denier, Dalton makes the stunning claim - on the very same page he quotes Zimmerman's refutation - that "[m]ost damning is the June 26 photo, which, by standard accounts, should have shown us three heavily smoking crematoria and several ongoing open pit fires" (Dalton, Debating the Holocaust, p.181).

Actually, according to standard accounts, the photo should show us exactly zero smoking crematoria and zero open pit fires, since no transport is reported for this day or the week before (but note that Michael Honey has assigned a transport from Hungary as arriving on this 26 June 1944, which - if true - would mean that a single big crematorium had to be active this day, but of course not necessarily when the aerial photograph was taken).

On 20, 23 and 25 August 1944, the number of mass-murdered people from transports from Lodz was as low as as 1 - 2,000 people per day and could have been handled by one or two killing sites.

Two days remain: 31 May and 8 July 1944. On these days several transports with Hungarian Jews rolled into Auschwitz and the mass murder machinery can be expected to have run close to full throttle at some point. On 31 May 1944, about 6,700 Hungarian Jews were killed in Auschwitz, and on 8 July 1944, the figure was about 8,800 people (according to Research Notes on The Hungarian Holocaust by Michael Honey assuming that 10% more women were selected for work than men). Both the 31 May and the 8 July 1944 aerial photographs show open air cremation behind crematorium 5. The cremation site seems at least 10 m long and 2 m wide, and may contain a stacked pyre of 100 - 300 corpses (depending on stacking height and density). Obviously, this open air cremation activity cannot account for all victims exterminated on these days.

But it's not that these (rounded up) 7,000 to 9,000 victims had to be killed and incinerated simultaneously, even exactly at the time the site was targeted by aerial reconnaissance planes. Both the 31 May and 8 July 1944 photographs were taken in the morning, between 9 - 10 a.m according to the sun's position. For all we know, the incineration of the victims from the previous day was already finished (apart from the open air cremation site still smoking behind crematorium 5) and new transports with victims did not arrive yet or new victims were not killed yet or were just killed (for 31 May 1944, numerous trains cars can be observed at the Birkenau ramp indicating the more or less recent arrival of a transport; personnel movement is visible according to air photo experts including close to crematorium 4, see Zimmerman, Holocaust denial, Addendum and Shermer & Grobman, Denying History, p. 149). In any case, it is impossible to draw any reasonable conclusion on the issue if 7 or 9,000 people were killed and disposed on these days in Auschwitz-Birkenau, merely based on aerial photographs capturing only few seconds in the morning.

Any likely incineration activity of an open air cremation site can be determined from the absence or presence of smoke, since open wood fires with a surface area of many m² can be assumed to generate substantial smoke most of the time, which should be visible even on aerial photographs taken from high altitude (see the 31 May, 8 July, 20 August and 23 August 1944 aerial photographs of the Birkenau compound).

This is not so clear for the crematoria. The question is, if and to what extent did the crematoria in Auschwitz-Birkenau emit smoke. The "if" can be answered quite easily: SS ground photographs of crematorium 2 and 5 show black soot at the top of the chimney, which is a clear sign that there was emission of considerable smoke at some point before. Less straightforward is to quantify the extent and frequency of smoke.

In the most extreme case, the chimneys always spouted thick, heavy smoke generating clouds of several square meter projected surface area readily visible on aerial photographs even of poorer resolution. In this case - and only in this case - absence of visible smoke from crematoria chimneys on aerial photographs would be proof of inactivity of the cremation ovens. Revisionists assume this - without saying - when they discount cremation activity based on the absence of visible smoke on aerial photographs. Mattogno is the prime example:
"In the light of what has been said above, the absence of any smoke rising from the chimneys of a crematorium is proof of its inactivity."
(Mattogno, Auschwitz: Open Air Incinerations, p. 65, his emphasis, see also Mattogno's related article Flames and Smoke from the Chimneys of Crematoria)

But I have yet to see evidence that any activity of the crematoria had to be visible on aerial photos. Suppose the crematoria chimneys emitted smoke only during certain phases (such as during start up with cooler refractory) or that smoke emission was depending upon operation, load, composition of corpses. Or suppose that the crematoria always released smoke (as Mattogno argues in the above cited article), but that its quantity and thickness was depending upon such factors, and that it was sometimes or always beyond the resolution limit of aerial photographs. This limit is more than 2 m for the 31 May 1944 photographs (cf. Zimmerman, Holocaust Denial, Appendix IV), and hardly any better for the 8 July 1944 photograph. If any smoke was below what can be actually detected on aerial photographs, then the absence of visible smoke rising from the chimney of a crematorium is not proof of its inactivity.

Hence, the only reasonable conclusion one can draw from examining the aerial photographs of Auschwitz-Birkenau is that either the crematoria were not smoking at the time the photographs were taken or that any smoke was below their resolution limit, but neither of which does conclusively demonstrate their inactivity. Besides, for all we know, the ovens were running idle at 9 to 10 a.m. on these days (i.e. without corpse and fresh coke supply), perhaps the slag was removed from the coke generators to make them ready for the following killing operation, and the chimneys were emitting much less smoke - if anything at all - not visible on the aerial photographs.
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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:22 pm

Nessie wrote:
The photos of May, June, July and August coincide with the time gassings are known to have been taken place, with the Hungarians, then the Lodz ghetto clearance.
Photo of the people walking down the steps please and the line behind as depicted, not your rather ad hoc version.

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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:23 pm

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:
VFX wrote:How long do you think it would take to get 2000 people down a set of stairs.? There still would be one plane photo, one from a spy somewhere. Nothing just the lie witnesses. The SS have photos from all over the camp, all except there, people taking a shower below ground.
The evidence is that each train load was maybe up to 2000, but that was then split up and the people not selected to work were taken to the kremas in groups that were much smaller. There was no queue of 2000 at a time waiting to get into a krema.

The planes only ever flew over the camp and photographed it in about 8 days over about 9 months. They were maybe a few minutes over head.

The SS took some photos of the selection process on one occasion, that is all.
2000 gassed at a time, 10 000 in a day, that is the evidence online by your liewitnesses. Now you are altering the official narrative, you naughty thing.
There is no one official narrative. There is no one eyewitness who states that one krema gassed 10,000 in a day, 2000 at a time, 5 gassings in one day. From this source there were;

- 437,402 Hungarians deported
- 142 transports
- on 42 separate days

That is an average of 3080 per transport. I believe that each train took about 1000, but let us say a train unloaded 3080 people inside Birkenau to be processed. No other train would enter until those people had been processed. Now an average (based on numbers registered to work at the camp) of 27% of people were selected to work, so the 3080 is now 2248 people. They are split between 4 kremas and Bunker II, that is 450. Four transports in a day and you get the 10,000 in a day, 2000 gassed in each chamber, bearing in mind those are estimates and round figures.
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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:25 pm

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:
The photos of May, June, July and August coincide with the time gassings are known to have been taken place, with the Hungarians, then the Lodz ghetto clearance.
Photo of the people walking down the steps please and the line behind as depicted, not your rather ad hoc version.
The work done to check the August photo has not been done for the others AFAIK. June is unlikely to show much as there was a pause in mass transports.
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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:38 pm

Nessie wrote: bearing in mind those are estimates and round figures.
:lol: :lol: :lol: Estimates? more like a grand work of fiction. How you delude yourself.

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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by Darren Wilshak » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:52 pm

'And that's why its called negationism and not Revisionism folks...'
"We are still waiting for anyone to rebut the main theme of the article that the decode in question and the numbers it quoted perfectly match those in the Korherr report.

Until such a rebuttal comes to light and goes through peer review the article stands the test of time. And after 10 years since the article was published both Peter (Witte) and I have moved on to other research projects. "

AHF

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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:55 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Hans Metzner, at HC, wrote this over 3-/12 years ago: John Ball's Air Photo Evidence on Auschwitz
Cremation Activity

The aerial photographs provide snapshots from Auschwitz-Birkenau. In the period from May to October 1944, aerial reconnaissance flights took one or few consecutive photographs on sevens days of this site. Several seconds of the history of Auschwitz-Birkenau were captured by Allied and German air planes from above on these days.

According to Holocaust deniers, the aerial photographs supposedly refute that mass extermination was taken place at the camp. The extent of visible smoke would not correspond to large scale body disposal activity:
"1944 photos show no smoke coming from chimneys, and only little smoke from outdoor fires."
(APE3, p. 94)

On 26 June and 13 September 1944, no large scale killings are reported for Auschwitz-Birkenau (according to Czech's Kalendarium as well as the so called Glaser list), and thus no extermination activity is expected on aerial photographs of these days anyway. For 26 June 1944, this was previously pointed out by John Zimmerman:
"The best known of these photos was taken on June 26, 1944. It shows the whole Auschwitz complex which consisted of three main camps: the Birkenau camp where the gas chambers and crematoria were located, the Auschwitz main camp, and Monowitz area of the camp where industrial production occurred. The Birkenau area of the camp shows no activity. However, on this particular day there were no arrivals from Hungary."
(Zimmerman, Holocaust Denial, p. 50, my emphasis)

Thomas Dalton is the author of Debating the Holocaust. He also read Zimmerman's book, and in fact quoted what I emphasised above. As to leave no doubt that he is not a curious sceptic, but just another stubborn Holocaust denier, Dalton makes the stunning claim - on the very same page he quotes Zimmerman's refutation - that "[m]ost damning is the June 26 photo, which, by standard accounts, should have shown us three heavily smoking crematoria and several ongoing open pit fires" (Dalton, Debating the Holocaust, p.181).

Actually, according to standard accounts, the photo should show us exactly zero smoking crematoria and zero open pit fires, since no transport is reported for this day or the week before (but note that Michael Honey has assigned a transport from Hungary as arriving on this 26 June 1944, which - if true - would mean that a single big crematorium had to be active this day, but of course not necessarily when the aerial photograph was taken).

On 20, 23 and 25 August 1944, the number of mass-murdered people from transports from Lodz was as low as as 1 - 2,000 people per day and could have been handled by one or two killing sites.

Two days remain: 31 May and 8 July 1944. On these days several transports with Hungarian Jews rolled into Auschwitz and the mass murder machinery can be expected to have run close to full throttle at some point. On 31 May 1944, about 6,700 Hungarian Jews were killed in Auschwitz, and on 8 July 1944, the figure was about 8,800 people (according to Research Notes on The Hungarian Holocaust by Michael Honey assuming that 10% more women were selected for work than men). Both the 31 May and the 8 July 1944 aerial photographs show open air cremation behind crematorium 5. The cremation site seems at least 10 m long and 2 m wide, and may contain a stacked pyre of 100 - 300 corpses (depending on stacking height and density). Obviously, this open air cremation activity cannot account for all victims exterminated on these days.

But it's not that these (rounded up) 7,000 to 9,000 victims had to be killed and incinerated simultaneously, even exactly at the time the site was targeted by aerial reconnaissance planes. Both the 31 May and 8 July 1944 photographs were taken in the morning, between 9 - 10 a.m according to the sun's position. For all we know, the incineration of the victims from the previous day was already finished (apart from the open air cremation site still smoking behind crematorium 5) and new transports with victims did not arrive yet or new victims were not killed yet or were just killed (for 31 May 1944, numerous trains cars can be observed at the Birkenau ramp indicating the more or less recent arrival of a transport; personnel movement is visible according to air photo experts including close to crematorium 4, see Zimmerman, Holocaust denial, Addendum and Shermer & Grobman, Denying History, p. 149). In any case, it is impossible to draw any reasonable conclusion on the issue if 7 or 9,000 people were killed and disposed on these days in Auschwitz-Birkenau, merely based on aerial photographs capturing only few seconds in the morning.

Any likely incineration activity of an open air cremation site can be determined from the absence or presence of smoke, since open wood fires with a surface area of many m² can be assumed to generate substantial smoke most of the time, which should be visible even on aerial photographs taken from high altitude (see the 31 May, 8 July, 20 August and 23 August 1944 aerial photographs of the Birkenau compound).

This is not so clear for the crematoria. The question is, if and to what extent did the crematoria in Auschwitz-Birkenau emit smoke. The "if" can be answered quite easily: SS ground photographs of crematorium 2 and 5 show black soot at the top of the chimney, which is a clear sign that there was emission of considerable smoke at some point before. Less straightforward is to quantify the extent and frequency of smoke.

In the most extreme case, the chimneys always spouted thick, heavy smoke generating clouds of several square meter projected surface area readily visible on aerial photographs even of poorer resolution. In this case - and only in this case - absence of visible smoke from crematoria chimneys on aerial photographs would be proof of inactivity of the cremation ovens. Revisionists assume this - without saying - when they discount cremation activity based on the absence of visible smoke on aerial photographs. Mattogno is the prime example:
"In the light of what has been said above, the absence of any smoke rising from the chimneys of a crematorium is proof of its inactivity."
(Mattogno, Auschwitz: Open Air Incinerations, p. 65, his emphasis, see also Mattogno's related article Flames and Smoke from the Chimneys of Crematoria)

But I have yet to see evidence that any activity of the crematoria had to be visible on aerial photos. Suppose the crematoria chimneys emitted smoke only during certain phases (such as during start up with cooler refractory) or that smoke emission was depending upon operation, load, composition of corpses. Or suppose that the crematoria always released smoke (as Mattogno argues in the above cited article), but that its quantity and thickness was depending upon such factors, and that it was sometimes or always beyond the resolution limit of aerial photographs. This limit is more than 2 m for the 31 May 1944 photographs (cf. Zimmerman, Holocaust Denial, Appendix IV), and hardly any better for the 8 July 1944 photograph. If any smoke was below what can be actually detected on aerial photographs, then the absence of visible smoke rising from the chimney of a crematorium is not proof of its inactivity.

Hence, the only reasonable conclusion one can draw from examining the aerial photographs of Auschwitz-Birkenau is that either the crematoria were not smoking at the time the photographs were taken or that any smoke was below their resolution limit, but neither of which does conclusively demonstrate their inactivity. Besides, for all we know, the ovens were running idle at 9 to 10 a.m. on these days (i.e. without corpse and fresh coke supply), perhaps the slag was removed from the coke generators to make them ready for the following killing operation, and the chimneys were emitting much less smoke - if anything at all - not visible on the aerial photographs.
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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:25 pm

The 2000 per gassing is an exaggeration, if it was made at all. The following equates to the figures given above for gassings and is the capacity of the ovens;

https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/a ... nts-ovens/

Crema 1 340 persons
Crema 2 1,440 persons
Crema 3 1,440 persons
Crema 4 768 persons
Crema 5 768 persons
Total per 24 hours 4,756 persons

(the Hungarian action did not include kremas I or IV, so 3,648 is more appropriate)

So, on the busiest of days; "On 31 May 1944, about 6,700 Hungarian Jews were killed in Auschwitz, and on 8 July 1944, the figure was about 8,800 people (according to Research Notes on The Hungarian Holocaust by Michael Honey assuming that 10% more women were selected for work than men)." no wonder there were outdoor cremations.

I think the document showing the labour force on the 28th July 1944 is also relevant;

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... /19440728/

there were 900 working at the 4 kremas on a day when there were two large selections of workers from transports, including 463 male Jews. Interestingly that includes stokers for krema IV which in other sources had no ovens working.
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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:45 pm

Nessie wrote:The 2000 per gassing is an exaggeration, if it was made at all. The following equates to the figures given above for gassings and is the capacity of the ovens;

https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/a ... nts-ovens/

Crema 1 340 persons
Crema 2 1,440 persons
Crema 3 1,440 persons
Crema 4 768 persons
Crema 5 768 persons
Total per 24 hours 4,756 persons

(the Hungarian action did not include kremas I or IV, so 3,648 is more appropriate)

So, on the busiest of days; "On 31 May 1944, about 6,700 Hungarian Jews were killed in Auschwitz, and on 8 July 1944, the figure was about 8,800 people (according to Research Notes on The Hungarian Holocaust by Michael Honey assuming that 10% more women were selected for work than men)." no wonder there were outdoor cremations.

I think the document showing the labour force on the 28th July 1944 is also relevant;

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... /19440728/

there were 900 working at the 4 kremas on a day when there were two large selections of workers from transports, including 463 male Jews. Interestingly that includes stokers for krema IV which in other sources had no ovens working.
Very interesting revisions Nessie. Do you have agreement with the others on your figures or is bookkid going to shoot you down. Anyway, this is worth following up on.

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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by Balmoral95 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:03 am

Revisions?

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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by Nessie » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:26 am

montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:The 2000 per gassing is an exaggeration, if it was made at all. The following equates to the figures given above for gassings and is the capacity of the ovens;

https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/a ... nts-ovens/

Crema 1 340 persons
Crema 2 1,440 persons
Crema 3 1,440 persons
Crema 4 768 persons
Crema 5 768 persons
Total per 24 hours 4,756 persons

(the Hungarian action did not include kremas I or IV, so 3,648 is more appropriate)

So, on the busiest of days; "On 31 May 1944, about 6,700 Hungarian Jews were killed in Auschwitz, and on 8 July 1944, the figure was about 8,800 people (according to Research Notes on The Hungarian Holocaust by Michael Honey assuming that 10% more women were selected for work than men)." no wonder there were outdoor cremations.

I think the document showing the labour force on the 28th July 1944 is also relevant;

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... /19440728/

there were 900 working at the 4 kremas on a day when there were two large selections of workers from transports, including 463 male Jews. Interestingly that includes stokers for krema IV which in other sources had no ovens working.
Very interesting revisions Nessie. Do you have agreement with the others on your figures or is bookkid going to shoot you down. Anyway, this is worth following up on.
I am quoting original documents and the work of a respected historian. There is no revisionism going on. Instead, I am seeing what evidence corroborates.
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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by VFX » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:33 am

:gp: Be careful it is not the same evidence just redone by other people. We will pick that up immediately. Do your work: that is respected Nessie.

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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by Balmoral95 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:44 am

VFX wrote::gp: Be careful it is not the same evidence just redone by other people. We will pick that up immediately. Do your work: that is respected Nessie.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by VFX » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:46 am

Immoral95 you were asked not to troll.

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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by montgomery » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:19 pm

Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:The 2000 per gassing is an exaggeration, if it was made at all. The following equates to the figures given above for gassings and is the capacity of the ovens;

https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/a ... nts-ovens/

Crema 1 340 persons
Crema 2 1,440 persons
Crema 3 1,440 persons
Crema 4 768 persons
Crema 5 768 persons
Total per 24 hours 4,756 persons

(the Hungarian action did not include kremas I or IV, so 3,648 is more appropriate)

So, on the busiest of days; "On 31 May 1944, about 6,700 Hungarian Jews were killed in Auschwitz, and on 8 July 1944, the figure was about 8,800 people (according to Research Notes on The Hungarian Holocaust by Michael Honey assuming that 10% more women were selected for work than men)." no wonder there were outdoor cremations.

I think the document showing the labour force on the 28th July 1944 is also relevant;

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... /19440728/

there were 900 working at the 4 kremas on a day when there were two large selections of workers from transports, including 463 male Jews. Interestingly that includes stokers for krema IV which in other sources had no ovens working.
Very interesting revisions Nessie. Do you have agreement with the others on your figures or is bookkid going to shoot you down. Anyway, this is worth following up on.
I am quoting original documents and the work of a respected historian. There is no revisionism going on. Instead, I am seeing what evidence corroborates.
Thanks for your reply Nessie. I think that we may be able to concentrate more now on what you are posting without the usual distractions. There seems to be quite a big of 'ignore' going on and that's going to be good for the forum. And fwiw, I think we can rely on Balsamo to continue to contribute in a meaningful way. I'm very interested in the A-B gassing stories and so have asked him to supply a good book reference. Maybe you could do the same. Both pro and con would be appreciated by pro for now is fine.

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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by Nessie » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:07 pm

montgomery wrote:.....

Thanks for your reply Nessie. I think that we may be able to concentrate more now on what you are posting without the usual distractions. There seems to be quite a big of 'ignore' going on and that's going to be good for the forum. And fwiw, I think we can rely on Balsamo to continue to contribute in a meaningful way. I'm very interested in the A-B gassing stories and so have asked him to supply a good book reference. Maybe you could do the same. Both pro and con would be appreciated by pro for now is fine.
There is no good book reference for a "con" to the mass gassings. Very few deniers have gone as far as to write a book and none are trained historians who use the historical method of enquiry, tracing evidence and reaching a proven conclusion.
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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by Darren Wilshak » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:15 pm

Gene Alley? Played a blinder on the fairway. Thomas Dalton PhD. Wrote a book which though pretending to be equivocal was heavily biased. Mark Turley? Don't remember what drove him, had been eccies.

They have all made outstanding contributions to {!#%@} all really and Shyster!
Yes Peter 'the rebar' Gast. The South London public bar, disused public convenience yuppie merchant who was all about 'me' and who liked to snort cocaine? Where did all those failures go? I doubt Uncle Monty will come up with anything new here Nessie. So why bovver pointing him down the side of any aisle? Dalton was outed eventually as some sort of low academic fraud or other.

I wonder though if Mark Turley's self published book, from 'Nineveh to Nuremburg is still available or if he has disowned it?

God Poosh used to rag him.

Its autumn, I'm nostalgic. I'll invoke these ghosts. Hands up who remembers River Cola?
"We are still waiting for anyone to rebut the main theme of the article that the decode in question and the numbers it quoted perfectly match those in the Korherr report.

Until such a rebuttal comes to light and goes through peer review the article stands the test of time. And after 10 years since the article was published both Peter (Witte) and I have moved on to other research projects. "

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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:26 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote:Gene Alley? Played a blinder on the fairway. Thomas Dalton PhD. Wrote a book which though pretending to be equivocal was heavily biased. Mark Turley? Don't remember what drove him, had been eccies.

They have all made outstanding contributions to {!#%@} all really and Shyster!
Yes Peter 'the rebar' Gast. The South London public bar, disused public convenience yuppie merchant who was all about 'me' and who liked to snort cocaine? Where did all those failures go? I doubt Uncle Monty will come up with anything new here Nessie. So why bovver pointing him down the side of any aisle? Dalton was outed eventually as some sort of low academic fraud or other.

I wonder though if Mark Turley's self published book, from 'Nineveh to Nuremburg is still available or if he has disowned it?

God Poosh used to rag him.

Its autumn, I'm nostalgic. I'll invoke these ghosts. Hands up who remembers River Cola?
If memory serves:

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27203&p=531511&hil ... ey#p531511
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by Darren Wilshak » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:28 pm

It does!

I had clean forgotten Mark was now into pugilism. Much better pursuit than this thoroughly disreputable denial carry-on he was flirting with.
"We are still waiting for anyone to rebut the main theme of the article that the decode in question and the numbers it quoted perfectly match those in the Korherr report.

Until such a rebuttal comes to light and goes through peer review the article stands the test of time. And after 10 years since the article was published both Peter (Witte) and I have moved on to other research projects. "

AHF

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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:49 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote:Gene Alley? Played a blinder on the fairway. Thomas Dalton PhD. Wrote a book which though pretending to be equivocal was heavily biased. Mark Turley? Don't remember what drove him, had been eccies.

They have all made outstanding contributions to {!#%@} all really and Shyster!
Yes Peter 'the rebar' Gast. The South London public bar, disused public convenience yuppie merchant who was all about 'me' and who liked to snort cocaine? Where did all those failures go? I doubt Uncle Monty will come up with anything new here Nessie. So why bovver pointing him down the side of any aisle? Dalton was outed eventually as some sort of low academic fraud or other.

I wonder though if Mark Turley's self published book, from 'Nineveh to Nuremburg is still available or if he has disowned it?

God Poosh used to rag him.

Its autumn, I'm nostalgic. I'll invoke these ghosts. Hands up who remembers River Cola?
Tark Murley wrote a well received book on the boxing scene in the UK when all was said and done.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:51 pm

Beat me to it LOL he used to PM me wanting to talk about Porsches and other studly stuff, weird, I mean we really loathed each other

For maybe two years after he stopped regular posting at Rodoh he would scan the forum to see if anyone had mentioned him, then pop in and whine about the unfair posts about him, which is how he got to be Tark Murley
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Re: No queues into the kremas, aerial photos at Birkenau

Post by montgomery » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:49 am

Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:.....

Thanks for your reply Nessie. I think that we may be able to concentrate more now on what you are posting without the usual distractions. There seems to be quite a big of 'ignore' going on and that's going to be good for the forum. And fwiw, I think we can rely on Balsamo to continue to contribute in a meaningful way. I'm very interested in the A-B gassing stories and so have asked him to supply a good book reference. Maybe you could do the same. Both pro and con would be appreciated by pro for now is fine.
There is no good book reference for a "con" to the mass gassings. Very few deniers have gone as far as to write a book and none are trained historians who use the historical method of enquiry, tracing evidence and reaching a proven conclusion.
Have you nothing to offer then as the 'pro' book?

I think that I will rely on Irving's books for the con side and then cross reference with one of the best recommendations against his views. That way I'm able to draw my own conclusions on who are the real historians. And so I'll ask you again.

And please, let's try to keep this on track from now on. We have more decent people showing up all the time who are going to appreciate your steady and constant, decent debating style. We can outnumber the bad behavior that seems to me to be destroying your best efforts as quick as you raise the issues.