The Action Reinhard Camps

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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:01 pm

VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:No credible eyewitnesses? Have you read all their testimonies then? Why can’t you answer what I asked you about Münzberger? Would it disrupt your random post generator?
Who was talking to you big nose. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
He knows more than you do about this btw
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by VFX » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Does he now, you know nothing about what I "know", it is fun listening to prattle on. You could do much much better.
Its obvious you have a disability... we have scanned your time talking here over like 6 months.

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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:07 pm

Will you finally start sharing with us what you know then? And dealing with what “you” have “scanned”?
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by Nessie » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:04 pm

VFX wrote:Inconsistent to the point of incredulity.
Unevidenced assertion.
They seemed quite specific about events they could not have witnessed for a secret operation.
They were the ones working on the secret operation.
This is why it is BS: this was a true secret extermination project, they would not just dump of a few old people to be holocausted and then others move on. No one would know a thing. Why go through the gassing crap, as there were supposedly enough psychopaths in the SS, then just let them walk into a room and cut their throat one by one like they used to do with sheep in abattoirs until recently. In the 1969s South Africa killed 30 million sheep a year by this method. Jew are no different really or anyone.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:46 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Nope.

"The Revisionist Fabrication of the Myth of an Original Treblinka "Steam Narrative": The Case of Friedrich Jansson and His Ball of Confusion"

"Full steam ahead for Treblinka"

I know there are limits to your method and capabilities, but do try coming up with something new.
Yes, there are limits to my knowldege of the holocaust and my methods but I think this barrage of interest in this thread has demonstrated that my capabilities are worth your time to try to diminish.

So I'll go back and ask my questions again.

1. First of all, which of the witnesses actually did tell the stories they are credited with?

2. Is it your contention that some or all of them were inventions by Mattorno?

If it's your contention that all these witnesses are 'liars and exaggerators' then that at least takes us to some firm ground from which we can continue. But if they are actual real witnesses then we have a tremendous amount of misinformation to deal with. I can list the witnesses for you from the index and you could give me your opinion for each of them. Or you can proclaim them fake or genuine all at once as a group if you like. I hope you don't ignore my request because I have a feeling some of the others won't, and I would like your input as the sort of informal leader of the charge so to speak.

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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:48 pm

Thank you all for your contributions to this thread!

I fear that the Skeptics side, or the HD side is starting to get drawn in to the bad behavior and personal insults. So I'll just say again. We must be extra vigilant to not get trapped into that kind of behavior. If we do then I've seen what will happen to a thread when it goes astray that way. It gets locked or shut down and we definitely don't want that to happen. So far we have resisted so let's keep it that way. Let the holocaust promotion side be the guilty parties if that's how they must behave. Thanks all!

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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:24 pm

montgomery wrote:Thank you all for your contributions to this thread!

I fear that the Skeptics side, or the HD side is starting to get drawn in to the bad behavior and personal insults. So I'll just say again. We must be extra vigilant to not get trapped into that kind of behavior. If we do then I've seen what will happen to a thread when it goes astray that way. It gets locked or shut down and we definitely don't want that to happen. So far we have resisted so let's keep it that way. Let the holocaust promotion side be the guilty parties if that's how they must behave. Thanks all!
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:31 pm

scrmbldggs wrote: Say what?
I'm fine with your contribution here eggs. And I'm pretty sure any others who are challenging and asking questions of the H.P. side must be fine with it too.

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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:33 pm

montgomery wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote: Say what?
I'm fine with your contribution here eggs. And I'm pretty sure any others who are challenging and asking questions of the H.P. side must be fine with it too.
I requested you use my full handle, monty. Please abide by it. You may also skip addressing me altogether.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by Nessie » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:42 pm

Mattogno did not invent anything. He has taken witness testimony and quoted it. The point is to differentiate between eye witness and hearsay and not to compare one with the other and claim inconsistency.

The actual eye witnesses (those who worked in the camp, not all saw gassings) who I know of that there is testimony available online are; Yankel Wiernik, Oscar Strawczynski, Ricard Glazar, Samuel Willenberg, Hershl Sperling, Chil Rajchman, but there are others.

Then there were the Nazis who worked there as well. There is some information here;

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/te ... -treblinka
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:43 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
montgomery wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote: Say what?
I'm fine with your contribution here eggs. And I'm pretty sure any others who are challenging and asking questions of the H.P. side must be fine with it too.
I requested you use my full handle, monty. Please abide by it. You may also skip addressing me altogether.
I'm a decent person so it's negotiable. I can just not address you when you have nothing to contribute to the conversation, or I could get into a flame war with you. I usually choose to ignore it.

I can address you with your full name or I can choose to continue to just refer to you as eggs. As I said, it's negotiable and my side of the table is asking for you to stop the personal insults and the spamming. What are your negotiating terms?

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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:46 pm

montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Nope.

"The Revisionist Fabrication of the Myth of an Original Treblinka "Steam Narrative": The Case of Friedrich Jansson and His Ball of Confusion"

"Full steam ahead for Treblinka"

I know there are limits to your method and capabilities, but do try coming up with something new.
Yes, there are limits to my knowldege of the holocaust and my methods but I think this barrage of interest in this thread has demonstrated that my capabilities are worth your time to try to diminish.

So I'll go back and ask my questions again.

1. First of all, which of the witnesses actually did tell the stories they are credited with?
There was a lot of interest in the Manson trial, OJ, and Martha Stewart, too.

If you rephrase your question so that it makes some sense I will try answering it.
montgomery wrote:2. Is it your contention that some or all of them were inventions by Mattorno?
”Mattorno” usually cherrypicks accurately. He also ignores what he doesn’t like. A historian will have to sift through it all and give an account that makes the best sense of it all. That will require comparing evidence and making judgments. Like when you popped in with Sperling, that’s not how historians work. It also means knowing how to treat different kinds of evidence and different kinds of witnesses and rejecting what doesn’t stand scrutiny. It is not news that one must be careful with witness testimonies.
montgomery wrote:If it's your contention that all these witnesses are 'liars and exaggerators' then that at least takes us to some firm ground from which we can continue. But if they are actual real witnesses then we have a tremendous amount of misinformation to deal with. I can list the witnesses for you from the index and you could give me your opinion for each of them. Or you can proclaim them fake or genuine all at once as a group if you like. I hope you don't ignore my request because I have a feeling some of the others won't, and I would like your input as the sort of informal leader of the charge so to speak.
Do whatever you like. As to this, ”if they are actual real witnesses then we have a tremendous amount of misinformation to deal with,” welcome to doing history. This your first time?
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:54 pm

montgomery wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
montgomery wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote: Say what?
I'm fine with your contribution here eggs. And I'm pretty sure any others who are challenging and asking questions of the H.P. side must be fine with it too.
I requested you use my full handle, monty. Please abide by it. You may also skip addressing me altogether.
I'm a decent person so it's negotiable. I can just not address you when you have nothing to contribute to the conversation, or I could get into a flame war with you. I usually choose to ignore it.

I can address you with your full name or I can choose to continue to just refer to you as eggs. As I said, it's negotiable and my side of the table is asking for you to stop the personal insults and the spamming. What are your negotiating terms?
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
. :pc:
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:55 pm

Nessie wrote:Mattogno did not invent anything. He has taken witness testimony and quoted it. The point is to differentiate between eye witness and hearsay and not to compare one with the other and claim inconsistency.

The actual eye witnesses (those who worked in the camp, not all saw gassings) who I know of that there is testimony available online are; Yankel Wiernik, Oscar Strawczynski, Ricard Glazar, Samuel Willenberg, Hershl Sperling, Chil Rajchman, but there are others.

Then there were the Nazis who worked there as well. There is some information here;

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/te ... -treblinka
Thank you for your reply. But you seem to be deflecting my question away from what I've asked. That is, are they reliable witnesses are are they just liars and exaggerators? So far I'm of the opinion that they were found by Mattorno and he capitalized on their testimony because they would make his case for him. I would suggest that is perfectly reasonable, just as you or your side of the debate would choose witnesses that would stand up to your needs.

Neither side's witnesses can be ignored and so I'm going to persist for now on referring to these witnesses. The reason why I'm justified in taking that stand is because it's simply 'what skeptics are supposed to do. And do, we need to deal with these witnesses and dispense with them one by one.

So let's start with Grossman as an example. What's ha all about? Is he a plant? Is he a liar? Is he being purposely misiinterpreted? Or, or??

Now I'm on equal fotting Nessie, with all due respects. S.M. can accuse me all he likes by calling me stupid, incompetent, ignorant, or any other insult he wants to stoop down to using. He's just not going to budge me from my persistence on seeing this through.

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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:58 pm

Hey Montgomery, VFX got himself in a jam. He claimed that none of the witnesses we’ve cited are credible, so I asked him about this. Like so:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:No credible eyewitnesses? Have you read all their testimonies then? Why can’t you answer what I asked you about Münzberger? ...
At that point the cat got his tongue.

Can you help him reply?
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:02 pm

btw, monty. Since I requested, each misuse of my handle represents a personal insult.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:03 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Will you finally start sharing with us what you know then? And dealing with what “you” have “scanned”?
This is not a personal insult and it's not meant to be, but you have called me 'tough guy' a few times and you've called at least two others 'tough guy'. What's that all about?

If you want to persist on taking this to a personal level then you're going to be dealt with in the same way you think you can treat others. There's a lot more to come if you want to make it your choice. I'll continue to insist that isn't the way to go and I won't be drawn into it.

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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:05 pm

montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Will you finally start sharing with us what you know then? And dealing with what “you” have “scanned”?
This is not a personal insult and it's not meant to be, but you have called me 'tough guy' a few times and you've called at least two others 'tough guy'. What's that all about?

If you want to persist on taking this to a personal level then you're going to be dealt with in the same way you think you can treat others. There's a lot more to come if you want to make it your choice. I'll continue to insist that isn't the way to go and I won't be drawn into it.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:11 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Hey Montgomery, VFX got himself in a jam. He claimed that none of the witnesses we’ve cited are credible, so I asked him about this. Like so:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:No credible eyewitnesses? Have you read all their testimonies then? Why can’t you answer what I asked you about Münzberger? ...
At that point the cat got his tongue.

Can you help him reply?
If VFX got himself into a jam then it's up to him to deal with it. I'm not going to make it my business to get into any of that sort of stuff that deviates from my questions. I will say though, in the spirit of rational conversation, that I would never make the claim that all witnesses are not credible. I will make the claim when I am convinced that the witness in question is not credible. So far, I'm of the opinion that there are some real questions to ask on Grossman.

So can you begin in a civil and polite way? What's Grossman all about. See the specifics I suggested to Nessie. We'll go through them one by one together if that suits you. Or you can make your proclamation on their credibility as a group.

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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:14 pm

montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Hey Montgomery, VFX got himself in a jam. He claimed that none of the witnesses we’ve cited are credible, so I asked him about this. Like so:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:No credible eyewitnesses? Have you read all their testimonies then? Why can’t you answer what I asked you about Münzberger? ...
At that point the cat got his tongue.

Can you help him reply?
If VFX got himself into a jam then it's up to him to deal with it. I'm not going to make it my business to get into any of that sort of stuff that deviates from my questions. I will say though, in the spirit of rational conversation, that I would never make the claim that all witnesses are not credible. I will make the claim when I am convinced that the witness in question is not credible. So far, I'm of the opinion that there are some real questions to ask on Grossman.

So can you begin in a civil and polite way? What's Grossman all about. See the specifics I suggested to Nessie. We'll go through them one by one together if that suits you. Or you can make your proclamation on their credibility as a group.
StatMech clearly asked about a discussion of Münzberger and not 'Grossman'. Your attempt at diverting the topic is noted.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:19 pm

montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Hey Montgomery, VFX got himself in a jam. He claimed that none of the witnesses we’ve cited are credible, so I asked him about this. Like so:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:No credible eyewitnesses? Have you read all their testimonies then? Why can’t you answer what I asked you about Münzberger? ...
At that point the cat got his tongue.

Can you help him reply?
If VFX got himself into a jam then it's up to him to deal with it. I'm not going to make it my business to get into any of that sort of stuff that deviates from my questions. I will say though, in the spirit of rational conversation, that I would never make the claim that all witnesses are not credible. I will make the claim when I am convinced that the witness in question is not credible. So far, I'm of the opinion that there are some real questions to ask on Grossman.
You should start by asking whether Grossman was a witness.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:19 pm

>> StatMech clearly asked about a discussion of Münzberger and not 'Grossman'. Your attempt at diverting the topic is noted.

I expected nothing less.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:35 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:>> StatMech clearly asked about a discussion of Münzberger and not 'Grossman'. Your attempt at diverting the topic is noted.

I expected nothing less.
Fine! you can resort back to your usual tactics. I have nothing to add about Munzberger because I have no knowledge of who or what he was/is. I can neither defend VFX or challenge him.

I'll be patient and wait til that's off your plate and then I'll direct you back to my questions on Grossman. You can decide on whether you can entertain the questions with me or not.

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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:37 pm

montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Will you finally start sharing with us what you know then? And dealing with what “you” have “scanned”?
This is not a personal insult and it's not meant to be, but you have called me 'tough guy' a few times and you've called at least two others 'tough guy'. What's that all about?

If you want to persist on taking this to a personal level then you're going to be dealt with in the same way you think you can treat others. There's a lot more to come if you want to make it your choice. I'll continue to insist that isn't the way to go and I won't be drawn into it.
Insist away.

Won’t be drawn into it. LOL
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:39 pm

montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:>> StatMech clearly asked about a discussion of Münzberger and not 'Grossman'. Your attempt at diverting the topic is noted.

I expected nothing less.
Fine! you can resort back to your usual tactics. I have nothing to add about Munzberger because I have no knowledge of who or what he was/is. I can neither defend VFX or challenge him.

I'll be patient and wait til that's off your plate and then I'll direct you back to my questions on Grossman. You can decide on whether you can entertain the questions with me or not.
Funny whom the skeptic will and will not challenge. Just sayin’ what is obvious.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by Nessie » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:48 pm

montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:Mattogno did not invent anything. He has taken witness testimony and quoted it. The point is to differentiate between eye witness and hearsay and not to compare one with the other and claim inconsistency.

The actual eye witnesses (those who worked in the camp, not all saw gassings) who I know of that there is testimony available online are; Yankel Wiernik, Oscar Strawczynski, Ricard Glazar, Samuel Willenberg, Hershl Sperling, Chil Rajchman, but there are others.

Then there were the Nazis who worked there as well. There is some information here;

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/te ... -treblinka
Thank you for your reply. But you seem to be deflecting my question away from what I've asked. That is, are they reliable witnesses are are they just liars and exaggerators?
I think that since their evidence is corroborated by other independent evidence, that overall their testimony is reliable. But, just as with any witness, especially one who is relating what happened to them over a long period of time, there are exaggerations and potential lies about some details.
So far I'm of the opinion that they were found by Mattorno and he capitalized on their testimony because they would make his case for him. I would suggest that is perfectly reasonable, just as you or your side of the debate would choose witnesses that would stand up to your needs.
My side looks at all of the evidence and takes that which is corroborated and only ignores that which can be proved to be false.
Neither side's witnesses can be ignored
The only witnesses are that there was mass gassing. The denier side has no witnesses at all for its varied claims, hospitals, mass showering, large transports back out of the camps.
and so I'm going to persist for now on referring to these witnesses. The reason why I'm justified in taking that stand is because it's simply 'what skeptics are supposed to do. And do, we need to deal with these witnesses and dispense with them one by one.

So let's start with Grossman as an example. What's ha all about? Is he a plant? Is he a liar? Is he being purposely misiinterpreted? Or, or??

Now I'm on equal fotting Nessie, with all due respects. S.M. can accuse me all he likes by calling me stupid, incompetent, ignorant, or any other insult he wants to stoop down to using. He's just not going to budge me from my persistence on seeing this through.
Grossman was a journalist reporting on the war. His evidence is hearsay. I think you should concentrate on actual eye witnesses including the Nazis who were there.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:49 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:>> StatMech clearly asked about a discussion of Münzberger and not 'Grossman'. Your attempt at diverting the topic is noted.

I expected nothing less.
Fine! you can resort back to your usual tactics. I have nothing to add about Munzberger because I have no knowledge of who or what he was/is. I can neither defend VFX or challenge him.

I'll be patient and wait til that's off your plate and then I'll direct you back to my questions on Grossman. You can decide on whether you can entertain the questions with me or not.
Funny whom the skeptic will and will not challenge. Just sayin’ what is obvious.
S.M. said:
Insist away.

Won’t be drawn into it. LOL
Make your point. I haven't even read the discussion you seem to be referring to. I think it's to do with VFX and a question on Munzberger? I don't know the answer or even the question.

I'm not trying to play to an audience here with you S.M. I'm playing to you and I would appreciate if you just do the same.

I'm asking for a simple explanation on Grossman.

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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by Nessie » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:59 pm

Which you have been given. He was a journalist, not a witness. He reported on hearsay.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:15 pm

Nessie wrote:Which you have been given. He was a journalist, not a witness. He reported on hearsay.
Exactly! You discount him based on that. He's a bloody liar who made it up out of whole cloth. Or he's a fool who took the evidence of liars and exaggerators and repeated it. We're making progress.

And that's why I have said that we can take each witness, one by one, and examine their testimony or you and anyone else can just proclaim them all to be about as reliable as Grossman. I'll deal with it either way.

I haven't read them all but I'll say with quite a bit of confidence that Mattorno has chosen to present witnesses that are going to cause problems for the H.P. side. I expect you will agree.

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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:17 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:>> StatMech clearly asked about a discussion of Münzberger and not 'Grossman'. Your attempt at diverting the topic is noted.

I expected nothing less.
Fine! you can resort back to your usual tactics. I have nothing to add about Munzberger because I have no knowledge of who or what he was/is. I can neither defend VFX or challenge him.

I'll be patient and wait til that's off your plate and then I'll direct you back to my questions on Grossman. You can decide on whether you can entertain the questions with me or not.
Funny whom the skeptic will and will not challenge. Just sayin’ what is obvious.
Sorry about stooping to your level S.M. but I'm enjoying watching you squirm.

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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:19 pm

montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:>> StatMech clearly asked about a discussion of Münzberger and not 'Grossman'. Your attempt at diverting the topic is noted.

I expected nothing less.
Fine! you can resort back to your usual tactics. I have nothing to add about Munzberger because I have no knowledge of who or what he was/is. I can neither defend VFX or challenge him.

I'll be patient and wait til that's off your plate and then I'll direct you back to my questions on Grossman. You can decide on whether you can entertain the questions with me or not.
Funny whom the skeptic will and will not challenge. Just sayin’ what is obvious.
S.M. said:
Insist away.

Won’t be drawn into it. LOL
Make your point. I haven't even read the discussion you seem to be referring to. I think it's to do with VFX and a question on Munzberger? I don't know the answer or even the question.

I'm not trying to play to an audience here with you S.M. I'm playing to you and I would appreciate if you just do the same.

I'm asking for a simple explanation on Grossman.
Won’t be drawn into it, btw, referred to your hypocrisy. I will be more obvious in the future

I told you to start by asking whether Grossmann was a witness.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:20 pm

montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:>> StatMech clearly asked about a discussion of Münzberger and not 'Grossman'. Your attempt at diverting the topic is noted.

I expected nothing less.
Fine! you can resort back to your usual tactics. I have nothing to add about Munzberger because I have no knowledge of who or what he was/is. I can neither defend VFX or challenge him.

I'll be patient and wait til that's off your plate and then I'll direct you back to my questions on Grossman. You can decide on whether you can entertain the questions with me or not.
Funny whom the skeptic will and will not challenge. Just sayin’ what is obvious.
Sorry about stooping to your level S.M. but I'm enjoying watching you squirm.
You’re hallucinating.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:21 pm

It’s {!#%@} Mattogno, my eyes, my eyes!
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:29 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:It’s {!#%@} Mattogno, my eyes, my eyes!
I'm quite comfortable with your argument so far, as I'm totally comfortable with that from eggs.

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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by Nessie » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:37 pm

montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:Which you have been given. He was a journalist, not a witness. He reported on hearsay.
Exactly! You discount him based on that. He's a bloody liar who made it up out of whole cloth. Or he's a fool who took the evidence of liars and exaggerators and repeated it. We're making progress.

And that's why I have said that we can take each witness, one by one, and examine their testimony or you and anyone else can just proclaim them all to be about as reliable as Grossman. I'll deal with it either way.

I haven't read them all but I'll say with quite a bit of confidence that Mattorno has chosen to present witnesses that are going to cause problems for the H.P. side. I expect you will agree.
I have not discounted him as a liar who took evidence from liars. I have not examined what he wrote, so I do not know how accurate he was. Just like any journalist. I have discounted him as a source because he is a secondary one who uses hearsay and far more is to be learned from those who were actually there.

Mattogno does indeed cherry pick what he can find to discredit the Holocaust narrative. So his interpretation of the evidence is very biased. His usefulness is that he has reproduced witness statements and documents and translated them.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:39 pm

Who here btw has quoted or relied upon Grossmann, who was not aen eyewitness, to make a case for events at Treblinka?
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:42 pm

montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:It’s {!#%@} Mattogno, my eyes, my eyes!
I'm quite comfortable with your argument so far, as I'm totally comfortable with that from eggs.
.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:06 pm

montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:Which you have been given. He was a journalist, not a witness. He reported on hearsay.
Exactly! You discount him based on that. He's a bloody liar who made it up out of whole cloth. Or he's a fool who took the evidence of liars and exaggerators and repeated it. We're making progress.
No, we're not. That Grossman's writing is mixed, containing errors and exaggerations along with good reporting, has been long known. We are back where we stated. For example, there are sections of the Black Book, among material that checks out, that can't be verified at all and, worse, are flat out, IMO, erroneous, contradicting the burden of the evidence often in a polemical way.
montgomery wrote:I haven't read them all but I'll say with quite a bit of confidence that Mattorno has chosen to present witnesses that are going to cause problems for the H.P. side. I expect you will agree.
Only if we or Holocaust are relying on erroneous testimony will the witnesses discussed and quoted by Mattogno cause problems for anyone.

As to Grossman, here is a book length discussion of the murderous purposes and process at the Aktion Reinhard camps that mentions him, first, as having written a well-known account of Treblinka and, second, in passing reference to his work on the Black Book - nothing more. That is, this analysis of the AR camp doesn't rely on Grossman's accounts. Arad's revised edition appears not to mention Grossman, not even in passing.

"H.P." side is another of your weak attempts at slurring.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by VFX » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:35 pm

scrmbldggs wrote: I requested you use my full handle, monty. Please abide by it. You may also skip addressing me altogether.
Please abide by the same rules and call him Montgomery. You are the one with the nik Scrambled Eggs. I do not think it is the eggs that are scrambled, though perhaps. :lol:

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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Post by Darren Wilshak » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:59 pm

Stick to making jokes in German, your English is halting and unfunny.