Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

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Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:21 pm

Already in October 1939 Friedrich Kellner was asking himself where the Nazis intended for the Jews to go:
The Jewish question was approached with a singularly brutal nature and in a radical form. Where are the Jews supposed to live? The Nazis do not think about it. . . . Not even Gypsies are proceeded against in such a way. These at least are sent to specific places.
Kellner believed at this early date that
The curse of this evil deed will rest indelibly on the entire German people. The authors, the National Socialists, will have disappeared some day; their deeds will live on.
entry for 13 October 1939, p 48

By early autumn 1942 Kellner was recording the deaths of local Jews - and how the German state simply took the property they’d left behind them. For example, on 16 September 1942 he mentions the Strauss and Heynemann families being removed from Laubach: “I heard from a reliable source all the Jews were taken to Poland and murdered there by SS brigades.” (p 201) In November 1942 Kellner wrote angrily, of the state’s theft of the property of “the deceased Jew Maximilian Franz Israel Carlebach” from Mainz (quoting from the legal notice), that “If sometime in the future the property of National Socialist enemies of mankind is requisitioned, the executors can use the edict mentioned here as a guide.” (p 214, Carlebach didn’t perish in Poland; rather he was killed in Sachsenhausen)

Kellner commented during September 1942 on an article, “Clearing Southeast Europe of Jews,” that had appeared in Berliner Börsen-Zeitung earlier in the month.

The article had framed its country by country discussion with an overoptimistic, from the Germans' pov, bit of typical Nazi ballyhoo:
Five years ago everybody would have thought it impossible the end of the Jews in Southeast Europe could come about as quickly as it has in fact happened. All states along the Danube have, after the example of Greater Germany, begun to limit the parasitic existence of Jews, to eliminate Jewish influence and to push Jews out of their own sphere of living.
According to the piece, the following developments in southeastern Europe had taken place:

- Slovakia had “in the spring of 1942 . . . started with the expulsion of Jews,” noting that 65,000 of the 89,000 Slovakian Jews had been “moved out in transports” and that “18,000 are awaiting transport.”
- Hungary . . . well, it’s great but is also “complicated” - still, the purging of Jews from Hungarian “cultural life” has taken place and, given the “large number and the extensive settlement of Jews in all areas of life,” the ongoing “work” is “especially difficult.”
- Croatia “has completely eliminated its close to 60,000 Jews from the national life” and was using “them for necessary labor.”
- Serbia and the Banat “are free of Jews and they are the first areas in southeast Europe where there are no more Jews at all.”
- Bulgaria is segregating its Jews . . .
- Romania has made Bessarabia “free of Jews” and put “about 112,000 Jews” into camps in the Transnistria - but a large number of Jews remains in the country and “Their expulsion is being prepared.”

In conclusion, the article imagined,
in one year there will be no more Jews in Slovakia, Croatia, Serbia, and Romania.
Kellner’s comment was perceptive and cut through the Nazi BS. He asked,
Where to?

And added
The so-called “clearing” of Europe of Jews will remain a dark chapter in the history of mankind. If we in Europe are so far gone we simply eliminate people, then Europe is irretrievably lost. Today it is the Jews; tomorrow it will be another weak tribe that is exterminated.
entry for 25 September 1942, pp 202-204
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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by Nessie » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:49 pm

OK, it's Wikipedia, but this;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Kellner

"One of the most important historical entries in the diary was written on October 28, 1941. Most Germans after the war would insist they knew nothing at all about the state-sponsored genocide of the Jews,[13] yet very early in the war Kellner recorded this in his diary, showing that word of atrocities reached the average citizens even in the small towns:

A soldier on vacation here said he was an eyewitness to terrible atrocities in the occupied parts of Poland. He watched as naked Jewish men and women were placed in front of a long deep trench and upon the order of the SS were shot by Ukrainians in the back of their heads and they fell into the ditch. Then the ditch was filled with dirt even as he could hear screams coming from people still alive in the ditch.
These inhuman atrocities were so terrible that some of the Ukrainians, who were used as tools, suffered nervous breakdowns. All the soldiers who had knowledge of these bestial actions of these Nazi sub-humans were of the opinion that the German people should be shaking in their shoes because of the coming retribution.
There is no punishment that would be hard enough to be applied to these Nazi beasts. Of course, when the retribution comes, the innocent will have to suffer along with them. But because ninety-nine percent of the German population is guilty, directly or indirectly, for the present situation, we can only say that those who travel together will hang together.[14]"

They bloody knew!
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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:55 pm

That same note was posted here, and (intentionally?) misunderstood by our new members.
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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:07 pm

Yes, people bloody knew more than they would later say, a point which Kellner foresaw (p 178). Somehow - he didn't explain all the threads that led him to his conclusion - Kellner could write on 15 December 1941 (an interesting time) of the deportations of German Jews that
they treat Jews worse than animals. This cruel, despicable, and sadistic treatment against the Jews has lasted now several years - with its final goal of extermination - is the biggest stain on the honor of Germany. They will never be able to erase these crimes.
Lest deniers wish to comfort themselves and deceive us with the notion the Kellner was making things up, we have the note posted by Nessie above as well as the entries about the Strauss and Heynemann families and Carlebach discussed above.

This is not Zionist special pleading or Communist black ops: Kellner was a minor official in western Germany.
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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by Nessie » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:15 pm

I know it is Wiki again, but the information is handily listed to make it easy to post;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judenfrei

"Establishments, villages, cities, and regions were declared judenfrei or judenrein after they were cleansed of Jews.

Gelnhausen, Germany – reported judenfrei on November 1, 1938, by propaganda newspaper Kinzigwacht after its synagogue was closed and remaining local Jews forced to leave the town.[3]
German-occupied Bydgoszcz (Poland) – reported judenfrei in December 1939.
German-annexed Alsace - reported judenrein by Robert Heinrich Wagner in July 1940.[4]
Banat, German-occupied territory of Serbia - reported judenfrei on 19 August 1941 in Völkische Beobachter (lit. People's Observer).[5] On 20 August 1941 Banat was declared judenfrei by its German administrators.[6]
German-occupied Luxembourg – reported judenfrei by the press on October 17, 1941.[7]
German-occupied Estonia – December 1941.[8] Reported as judenfrei at the Wannsee Conference on January 20, 1942.[9]
German-occupied territory of Serbia – May 1942, reported in the SS-Standartenführer Emanuel Schäfer cable sent to the Reich Main Security Office in Berlin; Schäfer was the Der Befehlshaber der SIPO und des SD head that time in Belgrade.[10][11][12][13]
Vienna – reported judenfrei by Alois Brunner on October 9, 1942.
Berlin, Germany – May 19, 1943.[14]
Erlangen, Germany was declared judenfrei in 1944."

I did wonder to what extent the above information was made available to the Germans. It is clear now that it would have been common knowledge. Even those who did have Kellner's sense of shame and foreboding would have likely wondered, where did they go?
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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:22 pm

As to indications of what kinds of news from the front, about the mass murder, reached some Germans, the following is lifted from posts in the Einsatzgruppen thread:

SD [Main District Office Erfurt] (Observer)
Report in the “Völkischer Beobachter” About the Deployment of the SD in the East
Erfurt, 30 April 1942
ThHStAW, NS 29/53, Bd. 4
The Völkischer Beobachter of 30 April 1942 carries a detailed report by the SS war correspondent Schaal on the deployment of the SD in a small Soviet city. . . . As a result of repeated publications in the press and visual reports in the Weekly Newsreel on the area of activity of the German Security Police and the SD, people say they have learned more about these formations. There is talk about the use of the Gestapo in the occupied territories in the East, but they say they have not been able to put together a clear picture of the area of activity of the German Security Police, since the wildest rumors are in circulation about them. Thus, people are saying that the Security Police has the task of exterminating the Jews in the occupied territories in the occupied territories. They say that the Jews are being rounded up by the thousands and sot after first having been forced to dig their own graves. There is talk that shootings of Jews are of such proportions at times that even members of the execution squads are suffering nervous breakdowns. The talk is that these rumors have caused the population to form a gruesome picture of the activity of the Security Police. They say that for that reason, there is special interest when the press or weekly newsreels in the the theaters also report on these police formations.
pp 582-583

SD District Office Schwabach
Report for December 1942
Schwabach, 23 December 1942
StA Nü, LRA Hilpoltstein Abg. 1971 Nr. 1972
At the beginning of December, there was generally a depressed mood in the local area among the population, especially due to the stories being told be soldiers at the front . . .

One of the most powerful sources of alarm in circles connected with the church and in the rural population are at the moment tales from Russia which speak about the shooting and extermination of the Jews. . . . As broad sections of the rural population see the situation as not yet certain that we will win the war, and if we do not, when the Jews return some day, they will take a horrible revenge.
p 608

SD District Office Friedberg III A 4
Mood and Situation
Friedberg, 23 April 1943
StA Abg, NSDAP Gau Schwaben, SD Unterabschnitt Schwaben 2/1
There is only a modicum of additional discussion on the murder in the forest near Katyn. One can even hear the view that this matter has been exploited far too much by us for propaganda value. Here and there, some say that our enemies would also find mass graves in the eastern territories we have conquered. These are not Poles, but rather Jews who have been systematically murdered by our troops. So one shouldn’t make so much ado about such matters, especially since before this, there used to be a lot of comment about how inferior the Polish people were. . . .
pp 618-619

RSHA, Office III (SD)
SD Reports on Domestic Questions
Berlin, 26 July 1943
Boberach, p. 5531
. . . only scant attention has been given to the report of the discovery of mass graves in Vinnitsa [attributed to the Soviets]. You can hear the view expressed that we likewise were relentless in eradicating all elements of opposition in the East, especially the Jews. Stories from soldiers and other persons deployed in the East play a large part in this. . . .
p 630

SD [District Office Stuttgart] III C 4
Report on the Leadership, 6 November 1944
IWM, Aus deutschen Urkunden 1933-1945, p. 275
“What is the intention of the leadership in publishing such pictures as were in the NS-Kurier on Saturday? The leaders should realize that any thinking individual who sees these murdered victims will immediately think of the atrocities that we committed in the enemy’s territory, yes even in Germany. Didn’t we slaughter the Jews by the thousands? Don’t soldiers repeatedly tell stories that the Jews in Poland were forced to dig their own graves? . . .” (numerous voices from all circles of the population)
p 656

quotations from Kulka & Jäckel, eds., The Jews in the Secret Nazi Reports on Popular Opinion in Germany, 1933-1945

(Interestingly, Kellner was aware that the SD were compiling the supposedly secret reports on public opinion, see pp 194-195.)

Dr August Töpperwein was a devout Protestant teacher from Solingen, a small city about 60km north of Bonn, who kept a diary during WWII. In May 1942 he was in charge of a POW camp in Belorussia. Late that spring Töpperwein would write about a mass shooting of Jews in the area by German units:
In our village 300 Jews were shot. Both sexes, every age group. The people had to take off their outer clothing (clearly so that they could be distributed amongst the remaining inhabitants of the village) and they were killed with pistol shots. Mass graves at the local Jewish cemetery.
Töpperwein recorded thus that the Jewish shooting victims included children, as Himmler was to explain at Posen, as well as the looting of the victims' last possessions. He wrote that these victims were buried in the cemetery but in mass, not individual, graves. Over a year later, in November 1943, Töpperwein tried to assimilate and understand what he'd witnessed in Belorussia and learned of during his later posting to Ukraine along with reports he'd gotten of the executions elsewhere in the occupied east:
We are not just destroying the Jews fighting against us, we literally want to exterminate this people as such!

By this time, Töpperwein wrote, he'd
heard dreadful, apparently accurate details about how we have exterminated the Jews (from infants to the aged) in Lithuania!
By this time Töpperwein had concluded that the "cover story" of the fight against Jewish partisans was without foundation and that the goals of the mass shootings were broader, "to exterminate this people as such," down to infants. (Nicholas Stargardt, The German War: A Nation under Arms, 1939-1945, p 259)

As knowledge of the extermination of the Jews spread amongst Germans, two common themes, expressed in letters and diaries, were to emerge: a) fear of Allied retribution against Germany for what had been done to the Jews and b) the idea of "burned bridges" - e.g., Walter Dürkefalden wrote to his brother (he'd informed his brother about mass executions of Jews in the east he'd witnessed as well as that he'd about gassing of French Jews) in 1942 that
Certainly it has gone so far that they will do to us as we have done to them, if we should lose the war.
(p 247)

I do not believe that it is likely, as deniers want us to believe of the written "traces" of the open-air shootings, that such diary and correspondence details, based on both personal, direct observation and what Germans were saying to one another about what was happening in the east, were rooted in Soviet fabrications or any other chicanery. The sources were contemporary - both eyewitness accounts and information passed on by Germans. Nor do I know of evidence for Töpperwein's diary (or Kellner's or the SD reports) being forged or manipulated by the Soviets.
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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:58 pm

Nessie wrote:OK, it's Wikipedia, but this;

There is no punishment that would be hard enough to be applied to these Nazi beasts. Of course, when the retribution comes, the innocent will have to suffer along with them. But because ninety-nine percent of the German population is guilty, directly or indirectly, for the present situation, we can only say that those who travel together will hang together.[14]"

They bloody knew!
I would suggest they knew no more than the American people knew about the MyLai massacre and other acts of brutality during the Vietnam war.

And for proof such acts of brutality are carried out my military persons, see the TimeLife photos of such.

On a photo of a Vietnamese family, the teenage daughter buttoning up her blouse after being raped by a US Marine, the grandmother screaming in terror, and a mother holding her baby in her arms. Less than a minute later they were machine gunned down by Americans, including the baby.

When you make suggestions about the German people bloody knowing, think carefullly on how atrocities are well hidden during war, and put yourself in the place of the civilians of the side that was doing the murdering. Did you know what happened in Vietnam while it was happening. You couldn't have because the American people still don't know the truth, and don't want to know.

No, the German people didn't know and it's still quite debatable just 'what' they didn't know.

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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:10 am

This thread seems to have veered from my initial purpose, which was to focus on resettlement claims. So be it. I do plan to return to the "resettlement" chimera. But for now we're looking at what was known at the time of the Germans' extermination of the Jews.

Photography by soldiers and others in the killing areas was so common that various prohibitions (by Woehler for the 11th Army as early as July 1941, but also by Himmler - 1942, Keitel -1941, Heydrich - 1941) were put in place - and as late as 1944 the OKW was complaining that soldiers continued to carry around photographs harmful from a propaganda point of view.

Here are some more cases of dissemination of news about the mass murder of Jews from the East:

TAÜBNER CASE IN SS COURT

The Taübner verdict (1943, concerning events which took place in August-October 1941, by an SS court) involved an SS-man stationed in the East who had made photographs of mass killing of Jews, had the negatives developed, and then showed the resulting prints to his wife and friends.

The verdict mentions as common knowledge that Taübner "knew that the photographing of such incidents [executions] was not permitted." (Klee, The Good Old Days, p 199) Further, the verdict states, "The accused claims not to have known that he was not permitted to take pictures of executions he carried out. The accused however cannot be believed in this matter. Right from the time he served in the Luftwaffe the accused has known that photographs may not be taken of official procedures, since these are viewed as 'secret.' . . . Witness Fritsch drew his attention to the fact that, as he understood it, the taking of such photographs was forbidden."

The verdict doesn't mention specific prohibition orders; Taübner commanded an SS workshop in the 1 SS Infantry Brigade so would not have been subject to an order for Army Group South. On the other hand, the verdict implies a general knowledge that photographs of official business, including executions, were not to be taken - under a general order for secrecy rather than under a specific order against photographing in the east. Taubner was found guilty in taking and sharing "photograph of the incidents" on the ground of "disobedience. Such pictures could pose the gravest risks to the security of the Reich if they fell into the wrong hands. . . . The accused was also aware of this considerable danger."

The judgment underscored that the photography, including an image of "a Jewish woman who was almost completely naked," was "tasteless and shameless" considering that "the taking of such photographs is forbidden."

Rules were not observed always and everywhere, as the Taübner case showed.

JANINA STRUK

Struk in Photographing the Holocaust maintains the following:

- “units of photographers and film-makers known as Propaganda Kompanien (PK) . . . were attached to every German division.” (should be: army level) They PKs were well equipped and plenty of film, including color film.

- PK photos flooded the news networks, including Allies’ news agencies and media. Life magazine praised the German photographs coming from war zones.

- The Germans transmitted photos by radio. - The Paramount studio (disclaimer: I used to work for Paramount) utilized German footage in its newsreel features. According to a Life photo-story, “The Germans collected everything taken by everybody, including their own photographers, and gave Paramount a complete reel before anyone else.” By mid-1940 the Germans were published Signal to disseminate war images and propaganda. - News analysts in the West justified using German images of the front on account of their immediacy, frankness, action-orientation, and high quality.

- German propaganda images from Poland, purporting to show ethnic German victims of Polish atrocities, were published in the West, with such headlines as “War by Propaganda,” which appeared in Life over a skeptical story on the Bromberg (Bydgoszcz) massacre. - One of Struk’s first specific warning examples, explaining how a single image often serves multiple, conflicting purposes, is a photograph taken by Julien Bryan in Warsaw in 1939 showing figures of two Orthodox Jews in near silhouette digging, and beside them a man with a pick. The photo’s intent was to depict “everyone pitching in” for the defense of Warsaw - people from all walks of life, including brave elderly Jews. The caption read “EVERYBODY HELPING: Orthodox Jews, Like Others, Dig Trenches Under the Direction of Soldiers.” The photo was picked up in 1942 in a Polish government publication, The German New Order in Poland, and cropped, removing the man with the pick - the caption explained the image as showing German supremacy, “Two elderly Jews forced to dig earth under the supervision of a German soldier” and said that the photo had been picked up from a German publication in 1939. In 1943, the cropped version of the image was used in TBBPJ with the caption, “Aged Jews at Forced Labour.”

- photos of Polish ghettos, executions in Poland, and other similar material were made available to western news agency by a Swiss journalist and distributed by Interphoto News Service in 1941; a batch of these photos was dismissed as inauthentic by the British Ministry of Information, which described a photo of the Warsaw ghetto wall as “no more ghetto than Malet Street,” that is, the site of the Ministry in London. Just the same, many atrocity photos circulated and were used in the western press (Struk cites an example of one series which after the war were found in the photo album of an SS man in Bavaria - there’s no way of knowing how these apparently private photos became public during the war, although indications point to the Polish underground).

- cameras proliferated among the Germans fighting in the East as “important weapons in war”

- soldiers’ personal albums were not rare - the photos taken by soldiers in the East mirrored the attitudes expressed in journals and letters - telling of what was experienced as a foreign, outlandish world captured and controlled on film or in writing

- images showed fear-inspiring exotic Eastern “types” but also uplifting, civilizing idealizations of the occupation

- “It is apparent from extant photographs that some [German] photographers not only had unrestricted access to the crimes, but also had the skills required to produce a narrative sequence of images” (e.g., a roundup and massacre in Czestochowa in 1939 found after the war in the things of a member of a German machine gun unit)

- as we infer from the Lithuanian testimonies, and as the ear-witnesses seemed to understand, “Taking photographs was an integral part of the humiliation process; in a sense it completed the humiliation” (trophy pictures, the male mob, the bizarre albums, executions - citing photos taken at Kamenets-Podolsk and Ponary - as spectator sport)

- so widespread was photo taking that as early as 22 July 1941 Chief of General Staff Woehler, writing squeamishly, laid down to the 11th Army Command that restrictions were to be put in place (“for any normal human being . . . no photographs will be made of abominable excesses, and no report of them will be given in letters home”; such photos should be prohibited and “confiscated together with the negatives” as affronts to “decency and discipline”); Struk cites two orders of Heydrich (11 November 1941 and 16 April 1942) forbidding “the taking of pictures at mass executions” and requesting that commanders of Order Police search for contraband photos amongst the men of their units. - despite the orders, according to Struk, “Reinhard Wiener said that he had no problems filming at Liepaja. The ban, ‘confined to the shootings which took place in the east,’ was not, he said, imposed unit the end of 1941.” (Wiener was a German Kriegsmarine who shot the iconic footage of the trench execution in July 1941 - - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npypqxdFY1c. and pp 4-6 of this http://data.ushmm.org/intermedia/film_v ... 1F9846.pdf)

- the Taübner prosecution thus was exceptional in that it reached an SS court: “it seems impossible to believe, because of the sheer amount of extant pictures, that soldiers were castigated for taking photographs at every execution”

- sometimes images recorded the humiliation and exploitation of women that soldiers committed in deed

- by late 1941 photographic supplies and equipment were in short supply, additionally Struk estimates a very high casualty rate of PK photographers, in keeping with the casualty rates on the front lines, despite their use of telephoto lenses

- by 1943 cutbacks in even official photographing were in place

MISCELLANEOUS EVIDENCE ABOUT PHOTOGRAPHING OF MASS MURDER OF JEWS IN OCCUPIED EAST, LITHUANIA

Klee's book includes background on other photos taken in the East, for example, at Ponary. Here is another angle on Germans breaking the prohibition on taking "atrocity photographs," the postwar testimony of witnesses to actions in Lithuania: 



Yehuda Barill, on the action in Ziezmariai, second half of August 1941: “According to the local peasants in the area, the Lithuanians [sic] murderers did the shooting and the Germans took photographs.”



Dvora Gus, interviewed on mass murder of 30 September 1941 targeting Jews of Onuskis: “The Germans stood near the pit as the Jews were being shot; they did not do the shooting, but filmed everything.”



Leyb Zibberg, relating what he'd heard about the murder of Jews in Pilviskiai, 15 September 1941: “The local Lithuanian Antanas Adomaitis told Leyb [Zibberg] that it was Lithuanians who had shot the women and children. The Germans had stood near the pit and continuously photographed.”



Mendel Davidson, concerning mass shooting of 26 August 1941 outside the town of Zarasai, on the Kaunas-Daugavpils highway in eastern Lithuania: 
“At the very moment that the men were being shot, a low-flying plane appeared and circled the area several times. Word spread that the Germans were taking photographs.” 



Ursula Urbanaityte, on the murders of women and children at Vilkaviskis, 6 July 1941: “Cvirkuviene also told then that the shooters were all Lithuanians - partisans, policemen and members of the Riflemen’s Club. The Germans stood at a distance, filming. There were about five Germans there, but they didn’t shoot. The shooting was done with machine guns and rifles.” 



Testimony from a Lithuanian, Matilda Kirgelite Kulikauskiene, on Virbalis, shooting of 26 August 1941: “After the women and children were killed . . . Navickas supervised the sale of bloodied possessions at cheap prices. . . . There were no Germans present during the shooting; they just drove up in a car and filmed everything that the Lithuanians did.” (p 200)



Quotations from Bankier, Expulsion and Extermination: Holocaust Testimonials from Provincial Lithuania, pp 115, 122, 137, 139, 160, 200


LIEPAJA, LATVIA - SUMMER 1941

The following film was shot in Liepaja, Latvia, by Reinhard Wiener, the German naval officer, during early extermination actions in summer 1941. After the war Wiener testified that the victims were forced by "the SS and the Latvian 'Heimwehr'" into the pit. He reiterated, "the SS was also there . . . the supervising detail was made up of SS. You can see that on the film." Wiener describes the action as one of "the shootings of Jews." Wiener explains that he went to the shooting site because another soldier had heard that "they're killing the Jews there." And because he'd been hearing about Jews being killed in the town and thought that this would be a good chance for him to check for himself if it were true. Wiener says, "I was under the impression that they were just shot because they were Jews." Not for crimes. Not as communists. Just because they were Jews.

[bbvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mroRsZ5ygUY[/bbvideo]
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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:21 am

The neo-Nazis, phony skeptics, and conspiraloons amongst us will have to deal with the simple fact that none of the above evidence comes from the postwar, except some explanatory testimony about the war-time evidence itself, or from "tainted" sources. This evidence cannot be jammed into their pet theories, such as "the Soviets done it" or "it's a calumny against Germany."
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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:22 am

I also need to add that, in each case mentioned in the article, “Clearing Southeast Europe of Jews,” that appeared in Berliner Börsen-Zeitung and which Kellner discussed, we know by and large where the Jews went.
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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:33 am

montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:OK, it's Wikipedia, but this;

There is no punishment that would be hard enough to be applied to these Nazi beasts. Of course, when the retribution comes, the innocent will have to suffer along with them. But because ninety-nine percent of the German population is guilty, directly or indirectly, for the present situation, we can only say that those who travel together will hang together.[14]"

They bloody knew!
I would suggest they knew no more than the American people knew about the MyLai massacre and other acts of brutality during the Vietnam war.

And for proof such acts of brutality are carried out my military persons, see the TimeLife photos of such.

On a photo of a Vietnamese family, the teenage daughter buttoning up her blouse after being raped by a US Marine, the grandmother screaming in terror, and a mother holding her baby in her arms. Less than a minute later they were machine gunned down by Americans, including the baby.

When you make suggestions about the German people bloody knowing, think carefullly on how atrocities are well hidden during war, and put yourself in the place of the civilians of the side that was doing the murdering. Did you know what happened in Vietnam while it was happening. You couldn't have because the American people still don't know the truth, and don't want to know.

No, the German people didn't know and it's still quite debatable just 'what' they didn't know.
In other words, both the Americans during Vietnam and the Germans during WWII had a good idea what their respective governments and military were getting up to. They did not have full details, much was hidden, but they were certainly not blissfully ignorant.

Again, as the evidence produced shows, it is not that debatable if the Germans knew or not. The evidence is there they did, to one degree or another and about different things. It was common knowledge that Jews were now being removed from their homes, their property stolen and places were being declared Jew free. Those who had a relative who was say in the Einsatzgruppen will likely know about the murders.

Then, to go back on topic, since Germans knew all about Lebensraum and many of them were being resettled in the east, they must have wondered, where at the Jews being resettled?
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Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:42 am

Interesting post..lets look at some supposed facts: Friedrich Kellner I will give highlighted thoughts next to these
  1. August Friedrich Kellner (February 1, 1885 – November 4, 1970)..deceased
  2. Kellner campaigned against Adolf Hitler and the Nazis...Gestapo watchlist
  3. During World War II, working as a civil servant at a small court house
  4. he wrote a diary to record his observations of the Nazi regime...doubt it...when?
  5. After the war Kellner served on denazification boards...not impartial
  6. helped to reestablish the Social Democratic Party...political bias
  7. He gave his diary to his American grandson in 1968...23 years to write this
  8. German publishers were not interested until in 2005...thought it was propaganda
  9. George H. W. Bush 41st President endorses it from Der Spiegel...Political
  10. It was on this day that Friedrich Kellner began to record his observations crap
OK that is enough, it is quite clear this man had a political agenda which was Social Democrat, he disagreed with the Communists and the National Socialists. Due to his political affiliations he would have come to the attention of the Secret State Police and knew he could be detained and searched at any time: it is highly unlikely this man would have written anything at the time.
It seem that in the 23 years since the war, and his involvement in the de Nazification program, his intense political activism led him to write those notes, 1000 pages long: that is not a diary but a book.
This is after war propaganda, not even hindsight bias, it is pure political propaganda to lift his own political agenda at the expense of others. His American grandson was duped. The purpose for doing this is unknown but gladly grabbed by such an astute US Politician Mr Bush.
In conclusion it is probably the work of this man, but written after the war, with the same Allied biases within its pages.
It cannot be used as a guage to how the ordinary German felt at the time and should be dismissed for what it is: BS
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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:52 am

Did Montgomery truly write what Nessie quoted? That the American people didn’t know about My Lai? And then just ignore what’s been posted in this thread to cling to his supposed skepticism?

To answer his idiotic question: yes I and millions of others knew about US atrocities in Vietnam - and organized and protested them. It was, it should go without saying, different in Germany.

This one is too stupid to be allowed even to ride a bicycle in the country by himself.
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Re: Friedrich Kellner

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:53 am

VFX wrote:...Due to his political affiliations he would have come to the attention of the Secret State Police and knew he could be detained and searched at any time...It cannot be used as a [sic] guage to how the ordinary German felt at the time....
Sure it can. :heh:
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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:56 am

The poster doesn’t know the provenance of Kellner’s diary (there is evidence about its provenance proving its authenticity from supporters of the Nazis in fact), nor that in the diary Keller wrote down many, many conversations he had with others and tried to capture and understand their thoughts and reactions.

Has he read the diary? Or does he prefer supposing this that and the other?
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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:16 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
To answer his idiotic question: yes I and millions of others knew about US atrocities in Vietnam - and organized and protested them. It was, it should go without saying, different in Germany.

This one is too stupid to be allowed even to ride a bicycle in the country by himself.
The United States began its involvement in Vietnam as early as in 1950 to aid the French in the First Indochina War. ... This incident urged Congress to approve the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution on August 7, 1964, giving President Johnson the power to wage war in Vietnam.
The movement against U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War began small–among peace activists and leftist intellectuals on college campuses–but gained national prominence in 1965, after the United States began bombing North Vietnam in earnest. Support widened over the following three years, and reached the peak in 1968.


Since there was no declaration of the war, exact dates are sketchy. However, it is now widely accepted that the Vietnam War started on November 1, 1955 and lasted until April 30, 1975, which is roughly 20 years, or 19 years, 180 days to be precise.

This means that it took the Citizen of the United States 10 years to mount a protest. I find that very shameful indeed. In fact bloody disgraceful :x

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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:17 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:The poster doesn’t know the provenance of Kellner’s diary (there is evidence about its provenance proving its authenticity from supporters of the Nazis in fact), nor that in the diary Keller wrote down many, many conversations he had with others and tried to capture and understand their thoughts and reactions.

Has he read the diary? Or does he prefer supposing this that and the other?
Please provide the evidence it was not written after the war and not a part of political propaganda. If he spoke his thoughts to others during the war, he would have found himself facing the Fallbeil.
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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:19 am

Off topic spamming so as to dodge the topic and use of a fallacious tu quo que argument.

Everything written after the Vietnam War was influenced by the official narrative and other reports, so they cannot be trusted. The reports that came out during the war was just propaganda by the anti-war side and much of it fake filmed with actors.

That is history denier style.
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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by Darren Wilshak » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:52 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Did Montgomery truly write what Nessie quoted? That the American people didn’t know about My Lai? And then just ignore what’s been posted in this thread to cling to his supposed skepticism?

To answer his idiotic question: yes I and millions of others knew about US atrocities in Vietnam - and organized and protested them. It was, it should go without saying, different in Germany.

This one is too stupid to be allowed even to ride a bicycle in the country by himself.
I couldn't quite believe that at first. Wow. Knows nothing about you clearly

Maybe VFX wants a COA for the Kellner diary. Is he going to bid on eBay for it then?

Pure tedium on the Internets.

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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:16 am

They sneer at books, and diaries that might have content that spoil their afternoons or the steel-hard marching they admire!

As to My Lai - who knew? How would a person find out?

Image

Image

What about the bombing of Bach Mai hospital a few years later, which, among the defoliants and other American methods, I bring up only because I headed a local branch of a fund-raising drive for its reconstruction? Did anyone learn of that, either? How did we know to collect relief funds? Did Dave Blalock tell me about the atrocities he witnessed in Nam and explain to me how a "search & avoid" mission had to be conducted?

montgomery . . . he's just a funny chap.
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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:25 am

But . . . where to, indeed, during the war with the vast majority German Jews, like the the Strauss and Heynemann families and Maximilian Franz Israel Carlebach? Where to with the Jews removed from Slovakia, Serbia, Romania, Croatia . . . ? Or does illiterate piffle about My Lai and American war crimes suffice for the skeptics posting here?
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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:08 pm

VFX wrote:Interesting post..lets look at some supposed facts: Friedrich Kellner I will give highlighted thoughts next to these
  1. August Friedrich Kellner (February 1, 1885 – November 4, 1970)..deceased
  2. Kellner campaigned against Adolf Hitler and the Nazis...Gestapo watchlist
  3. During World War II, working as a civil servant at a small court house
  4. he wrote a diary to record his observations of the Nazi regime...doubt it...when?
  5. After the war Kellner served on denazification boards...not impartial
  6. helped to reestablish the Social Democratic Party...political bias
  7. He gave his diary to his American grandson in 1968...23 years to write this
  8. German publishers were not interested until in 2005...thought it was propaganda
  9. George H. W. Bush 41st President endorses it from Der Spiegel...Political
  10. It was on this day that Friedrich Kellner began to record his observations crap
OK that is enough, it is quite clear this man had a political agenda which was Social Democrat, he disagreed with the Communists and the National Socialists. Due to his political affiliations he would have come to the attention of the Secret State Police and knew he could be detained and searched at any time: it is highly unlikely this man would have written anything at the time.
It seem that in the 23 years since the war, and his involvement in the de Nazification program, his intense political activism led him to write those notes, 1000 pages long: that is not a diary but a book.
This is after war propaganda, not even hindsight bias, it is pure political propaganda to lift his own political agenda at the expense of others. His American grandson was duped. The purpose for doing this is unknown but gladly grabbed by such an astute US Politician Mr Bush.
In conclusion it is probably the work of this man, but written after the war, with the same Allied biases within its pages.
It cannot be used as a guage to how the ordinary German felt at the time and should be dismissed for what it is: BS
.
I suspected foul play by the holocaust promotion side on this one right from the start. And so on this one I think i'm able to come to the conclusion that it was/is hogwash. Your highlighted points served to convince.

Fwiw, this appears to fit in with the lies and exaggerations.

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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:18 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:They sneer at books, and diaries that might have content that spoil their afternoons or the steel-hard marching they admire!

As to My Lai - who knew? How would a person find out?

Image

Image

What about the bombing of Bach Mai hospital a few years later, which, among the defoliants and other American methods, I bring up only because I headed a local branch of a fund-raising drive for its reconstruction? Did anyone learn of that, either? How did we know to collect relief funds? Did Dave Blalock tell me about the atrocities he witnessed in Nam and explain to me how a "search & avoid" mission had to be conducted?
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make but at least your posts deserve comment. My point is that until MyLai was uncovered, the atrocities were kept mostly secrets. That's not saying that the sanitized version of people being slaughtered in the bomgings wasn't well known.

quote Fogerty:
every night at six, we saw the pictures, and counted up the score
This sort of new accounts were still quite acceptable and being presented during the Iraq wars. In fact, even being made into a joke to be laughed at by Swartzkoff and others.

And to add to that, the MyLai massacre stands by itself as the evidence of the up close and personal brutality and horrendous war crimes. Later wars were suitably sanitized. No more pictures of little girls running down the road on fire!

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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by Darren Wilshak » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:39 pm

The point he was making was that you're a bit of a dumb ass at this?

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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:40 pm

That was indeed one of my points.
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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by Darren Wilshak » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:41 pm

Too subtle for you Montgomery?

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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by Reaktori » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:46 pm

montgomery wrote:
I suspected foul play by the holocaust promotion side on this one right from the start. And so on this one I think i'm able to come to the conclusion that it was/is hogwash. Your highlighted points served to convince.

Fwiw, this appears to fit in with the lies and exaggerations.
You will accept literally any un-evidenced assertion as long as it supports your biases. Some "skeptical" route you are taking here, cretin.

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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:51 pm

Another one who, no doubt, has not read Kellner's diary, its background, the evidence concerning its provenance, or much else for that matter. Not to mention anything about the other material on dissemination of knowledge about the mass killings among Germans. How do these clowns want to get around the SD reports, for example?
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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:55 pm

Reaktori wrote:
montgomery wrote:
I suspected foul play by the holocaust promotion side on this one right from the start. And so on this one I think i'm able to come to the conclusion that it was/is hogwash. Your highlighted points served to convince.

Fwiw, this appears to fit in with the lies and exaggerations.
You will accept literally any un-evidenced assertion as long as it supports your biases. Some "skeptical" route you are taking here, cretin.
Frankly, I don't think "No one at all ever should, but I will." and "I don't believe it, but am convinced." monty has any convictions at all. S/he's just on a garden variety trolling spree.
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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by Reaktori » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:56 pm

Im convinced of it at this point as well, though hes only managed to make a complete fool out of himself, so his success is arguable.

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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:58 pm

Reaktori wrote:
montgomery wrote:
I suspected foul play by the holocaust promotion side on this one right from the start. And so on this one I think i'm able to come to the conclusion that it was/is hogwash. Your highlighted points served to convince.

Fwiw, this appears to fit in with the lies and exaggerations.
You will accept literally any un-evidenced assertion as long as it supports your biases. Some "skeptical" route you are taking here, cretin.
That doesn't work with me Reaktori. It served only to strengthen my suspicions of you being another typical holocaust promoter who are empty bottles, making the loudest noise.

Please try to help make this forum a better place.

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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:59 pm

Reaktori wrote:Im convinced of it at this point as well, though hes only managed to make a complete fool out of himself, so his success is arguable.
S/he gets responses. That's what it's all about. Any kind will do...


And VFX has fallen for it. :lol:
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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:04 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Reaktori wrote:
montgomery wrote:
I suspected foul play by the holocaust promotion side on this one right from the start. And so on this one I think i'm able to come to the conclusion that it was/is hogwash. Your highlighted points served to convince.

Fwiw, this appears to fit in with the lies and exaggerations.
You will accept literally any un-evidenced assertion as long as it supports your biases. Some "skeptical" route you are taking here, cretin.
Frankly, I don't think "No one at all ever should, but I will." and "I don't believe it, but am convinced." monty has any convictions at all. S/he's just on a garden variety trolling spree.
But - and this is very important - not a denier of the Holocaust. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:04 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:And VFX has fallen for it. :lol:
Well, VFX also is dumb as a sack of hammers.
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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:28 pm

...and thinks his/her copy pastas are making him/her look smart... :-P
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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:37 pm

montgomery wrote:

That doesn't work with me Reaktori. It served only to strengthen my suspicions of you being another typical holocaust promoter who are empty bottles, making the loudest noise.

Please try to help make this forum a better place.
It's attitude is apparent on its first post I have read. A newbie who acts like that, one must be suspicious of marionettes.
The people are not sceptical enough which is is somewhat ironic considering their personal claims. Now it seems more like personal claims of impropriety.
The point is about the works of this man is his rigid adherence to his political point of view at the expense of the other parties. He had adopted the allied Anti Nazi rhetoric hook line and sinker due to the fact that it aligned with his own political ideology to some extent. There are chances that he wrote no huge manuscript during the war, especially as he would have been under the very watchful eyes of the Secret State Police, in part due to his anti Nazi political activities. While the manuscript is likely to be his own work, they mean absolutely nothing, but reflect only the personal biases of one person. Their value to history is only that of political expediency. It just suited the US administration at the time to allow these personal reflections to be printed as though the thoughts of one man are the thoughts of a nation. It is more a work fiction and aligns more with Tolkien's version of Mordor, than reality.
The people here seem to lack the critical skills or judgement to perceive when they are duped: that is obvious. Like the bible and god, what they think is more "faith" based with wishful thinking than any critical analysis. They are delusional.
Nothing said here has convinced either me, nor probably you of the reality of this manuscript as being a genuine document. It was most likely written after the war at the guidance of allied propaganda and influence. At the end of the day it means nothing. As you said "they are baying at the Moon"

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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:39 pm

Next up: the other tab.
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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:06 pm

Please try to help make this forum a better place.

He is, just not your twisted version of what a better place looks like.

Here's the deal Monty: Your attempt to makeover the place has already failed. In point of fact the idea was a stillborn one in the first place. The best you've got to hope for is exactly what you see before you today. Enjoy.

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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:32 pm

Since I started this thread with Kellner, although I’ve since added a lot of other, similar evidence, I think it’s time to take a look at Kellner’s diary:

- Kellner was a Social Democrat and party activist; he long opposed the National Socialists and hoped for the defeat of the Third Reich; Kellner moved to Laubach in 1933, in part to get away from harassment by National Socialists in Mainz - in Laubach, Kellner was the courthouse administrative manager; even in Laubach, Kellner had some run-ins with party and local officials, and with the Gestapo, which taught him to exercise great care in keeping his diary - he began his diary with the beginning of the war, Germany’s attack on Poland (more on this later) as he knew that the war would bring momentous events - in the back of his mind was creating an case against the National Socialist dictatorship

- the diary sat mostly intact after the war, all except the very first part (more below) kept by Kellner and his wife

- in 1960 Kellner’s American 19-year-old grandson visited him in Laubach and Kellner showed him the diary along with the war-time newspaper clippings he’d kept; many of the diary pages have wartime news articles and headlines pasted onto them - I’m reading an abbreviated English translation of the diary; the German version is two volumes, “including the entire texts of the hundreds of newspaper articles pasted among the entries”; the notebooks in which Kellner wrote also had “occasional long lists of news headlines pasted on some diary pages” and obituaries in place; all this is “interwoven” with the written text; Kellner’s grandson described seeing “a series of notebooks that held hundreds of pages handwritten in a cryptic Old German script”

- in 1966 Kellner was recognized by the West German government for his stance against the Nazis

- shortly after this recognition, Kellner told his grandson, who had agreed to help him publish the diary and other (prewar) writings, that “Notebook 1” had disappeared from the apartment of his sister in law, who had been typing a copy from the German script; the family suspected that Willi Weber, an National Socialist still bitter about Germany’s defeat in the war and relative of the husband of one of Kellner’s wife’s sisters had taken Notebook 1

- at this time Kellner gave the 9 remaining notebooks, which he described as “my resistance to terror and lawlessness,” to his grandson for safe keeping; both Kellner and his wife would die in 1970 - Kellner’s will listed the notebooks and bequeathed them to his grandson, even though the books were already in his grandson’s possession; Kellner also left his grandson a small amount of money and various other belongings including “all his papers and the family documents and oil paintings”

- Kellner designated Ludwig Heck as executor; Kellner was aware that Heck, whom Kellner viewed as a surrogate son, was “an ardent believer [in National Socialism] from his membership in the Hitler Youth to his frontline service in a panzer unit”

- in the mid-1970s Heck sent Kellner’s grandson the money owed him in the will along with a crate containing the relevant papers and other belongings - and a note; Kellner’s grandson explained that the note from Heck said “‘It is a comfort for me to know I have fulfilled your grandfather’s wish and the family belongings are in good hands.’ But Friedrich Kellner’s wish had not been fulfilled, which I would discover thirty years later.”

- Kellner’s grandson, drawing on support from his university, Texas A&M; the George Bush Presidential Library (GHW Bush himself gave assistance to Kellner's grandson); and Giessen University, continued his efforts to publish the diary, beginning with displaying it in exhibitions; accurate deciphering of the difficult script in which Kellner wrote took great effort and funding and other support was necessary; Kellner’s grandson tracked down people mentioned in the diaries, mostly in 1968 and 1970, and gained background information about events and people mentioned by Kellner - he also found archival and other support material for incidents described by Kellner in the diary; as part of the publication effort, the group at Giessen University in 1976 did an oral history interview with Heck; during the interview Heck “revealed that he had the missing notebook and few pre-war essays” of Kellner; Heck gave no explanation for his retention of this notebook but turned it over, albeit missing the very first section; Kellner’s grandson speculates that Heck, along with Willi Weber and another comrade from Wehrmacht days named Ganglberger, “could not have been happy with Friedrich Kellner’s description of the army’s depredations” and so held onto the one notebook they were able to take

- the notebooks used by Kellner were accounting books with ruled pages; supplementary items were written on blank sheets (Kellner was in the habit of writing longer, supplements to the basic diary on important issues or themes); on one occasion when party members had entered Kellner’s apartment to investigate him, some of the unruled pages were lying around and his wife gathered them up before the party delegation could see them

- Kellner entitled his notebooks, even as he wrote them, “My Opposition”; after the war, Kellner resumed his work with the Social Democratic party, becoming chairman of the local branch, and for a time served as deputy mayor of Laubach and was a legal adviser to the community

- Yad Vashem and USHMM passed on publication of the Kellner diary - but when it was eventually published - 51 years after Kellner's grandson first discussed it with him - to great acclaim

[all quotations from pp ix-xxxi and 1-26 of Robert Scott Kellner, ed, My Opposition: The Diary of Friedrich Kellner: A German Against the Third Reich]
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Friedrich Kellner asks in real time to where Jews supposedly were being taken

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:42 pm

And again . . .
Statistical Mechanic wrote:But . . . where to, indeed, during the war with the vast majority German Jews, like the the Strauss and Heynemann families and Maximilian Franz Israel Carlebach? Where to with the Jews removed from Slovakia, Serbia, Romania, Croatia . . . ? . . .
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"