Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

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Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by Aaron Richards » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:14 am

First, a piece that Goebbels wrote for "Das Reich" on November 16th, 1941 in which he stated:
"The Jews are receiving a penalty that is certainly hard, but more than deserved. World Jewry erred in adding up the forces available to it for this war, and now is gradually experiencing the destruction that it planned for us, and would have carried out without a second thought if it had possessed the ability. It is perishing according its own law: "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."
source: "Die Juden sind schuld!" Das eherne Herz: Reden und Aufsätze aus den Jahren 1941/42 von
Joseph Goebbels, Munich, 1943, p. 85; English translation by Randall Bytwerk at Calvin
College German Propaganda Archive:
http://research.calvin.edu/german-propa ... /goeb1.htm.

Goebbels paraphrasing Hitler, spoken at a meeting of the NSDAP Reichs-and-Gauleiter on 12 December 1941 and recorded in Goebbels' diary entry on the following day:
«Bezüglich der Judenfrage ist der Führer entschlossen, reinen Tisch zu machen. Er hat den Juden prophezeit, dass, wenn sie noch einmal einen Weltkrieg herbeiführen würden, sie dabei ihre Vernichtung erleben würden. Das ist keine Phrase gewesen. Der Weltkrieg ist da, die Vernichtung des Judentums muss die notwendige Folge sein. Diese Frage ist ohne jede Sentimentalität zu betrachten. Wir sind nicht dazu da, Mitleid mit den Juden, sondern nur Mitleid mit unserem deutschen Volk zu haben. Wenn das deutsche Volk jetzt wieder im Ostfeldzug an die 160 000 Tote geopfert hat, so werden die Urheber dieses blutigen Konfliktes dafür mit ihrem Leben bezahlen müssen.»

[Quoted after Christian Gerlach, Krieg, Ernährung, Völkermord, page 117]

translation:
«Regarding the Jewish question, the Führer is determined to make a clean sweep. He prophesied to the Jews that, if they were again to bring about a world war, they would experience their destruction therein. That was no catch-phrase. The world war is here, the destruction of Jewry must be the necessary consequence. This question is to be regarded without any sentimentality. We are not here to have pity with the Jews, but only to have pity with our German Volk. If the German Volk has now again sacrificed about 160 000 dead in the Eastern Campaign, the authors of this bloody conflict must pay for this with their lives
February 14, 1942:
"The Führer once again expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness.
On 27 March 1942, during the height of the war, Goebbels wrote into his diary one of the most explicit recorded references to the Nazi genocide of the Jews:
«Aus dem Generalgovernement werden jetzt, bei Lublin beginnend, die Juden nach dem Osten abgeschoben. Es wird hier ein ziemlich barbarisches und nicht näher zu beschreibendes Verfahren angewandt, und von den Juden selbst bleibt nicht mehr viel übrig. Im großen kann man wohl feststellen, daß 60 % davon liquidiert werden müssen, während nur noch 40 % in die Arbeit eingesetzt werden können. Der ehemalige Gauleiter von Wien, der diese Aktion durchführt, tut das mit ziemlicher Umsicht und auch mit einem Verfahren, das nicht allzu auffällig wirkt. An den Juden wird ein Strafgericht vollzogen, das zwar barbarisch ist, das sie aber vollauf verdient haben. Die Prophezeiung, die der Führer ihnen für die Herbeiführung eines neuen Weltkriegs mit auf den Weg gegeben hat, beginnt sich in der furchtbarsten Weise zu verwirklichen. Man darf in diesen Dingen keine Sentimentalitäten obwalten lassen.»
translation:
«The Jews are now being pushed out of the General Government, beginning near Lublin, to the East. A pretty barbaric procedure is being applied here, and it is not to be described in any more detail, and not much is left of the Jews themselves. In general one may conclude that 60% of them must be liquidated, while only 40% can be put to work. The former Gauleiter of Vienna [Globocnik], who is carrying out this action, is doing it pretty prudently and with a procedure that doesn't work too conspicuously. The Jews are being punished barbarically, to be sure, but they have fully deserved it. The prophesy that the Führer issued to them on the way, for the eventuality that they started a new world war, is beginning to realise itself in the most terrible manner. One must not allow any sentimentalities to rule in these matters.»
More examples:
"...the greater the number of Jews liquidated, the more consolidated will the situation in Europe be after this war."
-March 6, 1942
"Short shrift ["kurzer Prozess"] is being made of the Jews in all eastern occupied areas. Tens of thousands will 'have to believe in it' ["müssen daran glauben", German idiom for 'bite the dust'], and the prophecy of the Führer is being fulfilled on them, that Judaism will have to pay for a new world war which it has ignited with the extermination of its race."
-April 29, 1942
German original for reference:
"Zehntausend müssen daran glauben, und an ihnen erfüllt sich die Prophezeiung des Führers, dass das Judentum einen von ihm entfachten neuen Weltkrieg mit der Ausrottung seiner Rasse wird bezahlen müssen."


Here is where Dr. Joseph Goebbels destroys 50 years of holocaust revisionism's carefully crafted "evacuated to the East" theory in a single diary entry :lol: , dated May 30, 1942 (II.4.406)
[...] Therefore one must exterminate (liquidieren) the Jewish danger, cost it what it will. Given how few Jews can in reality adjust themselves to Western European life, one sees that, where they are led back into the ghetto, they quickly revert to form. Western European civilization represents only an external coat of paint to them. There is also the Jewish essence, which works with a dangerous brutality and vindictiveness. Therefore the Führer does not at all wish that the Jews should be evacuated (evakuiert) to Siberia. There, under the harshest living conditions, they would undoubtedly develop again a strong life-element. [...]
"At bottom, however, I believe both the English and the Americans are happy that we are exterminating the Jewish riff-raff."
-December 13, 1942

May 13, 1943:
"The intellectual does not have the natural means of resisting the Jewish peril because his instincts have been badly blunted. Because of this fact the nations with a high standard of civilization are exposed to this peril first and foremost. In nature life always takes measures against parasites; in the life of nations that is not always the case. From this fact the Jewish peril actually stems. There is therefore no other recourse left for modern nations except to exterminate the Jew."
(Joseph Goebbels' Diaries: Excerpts, 1942-43, Part 2 of 2: May 13, 1943 (pp. 376-377)

Goebbels continues to say the following in his May 13th, 1943 diary entry:
"Sie werden sich mit allen Mitteln gegen diesen allmählichen Vernichtungsfeldzug zur Wehr setzen. Eines dieser Mittel ist der Krieg. Wir müssen uns also darüber klar sein, daß wir in dieser Auseinandersetzung zwischen der arischen Menschheit und der jüdischen Rasse noch sehr schwere Kämpfe zu bestehen haben, weil das Judentum es verstanden hat, große Völkerschaften aus der arischen Rasse bewußt oder unbewußt in seinen Dienst zu bringen . . . Das Weltjudentum steht nach der festen Überzeugung des Führers vor einem geschichtlichen Sturz . . . Die Völker, die den Juden am ehesten erkannt haben und ihn am ehesten bekämpfen, werden an seiner Stelle die Weltherrschaft antreten."


translation:
"They will resist this campaign of gradual destruction with everything at their disposal. One of these is war. So we have to be aware that in this conflict between Aryan humanity and the Jewish race, we still have to fight very hard battles because Judaism has managed to bring large peoples of the Aryan race
consciously or unconsciously into its service . . . It is the Fuhrer's strong conviction that World Jewry is about to undergo a historic fall . . . Those peoples who have recognized and are most eagerly fighting the Jew, will take over world domination in his place."
Speaking of world domination, here's another entry that proves claims of National Socialist world domination weren't far-fetched at all:

May 13, 1943:
"Aus alledem aber hat der Führer die Konsequenz gezogen, daß das Kleinstaatengerümpel, das heute noch in Europa vorhanden ist, so schnell wie möglich liquidiert werden muß. Es muß das Ziel unseres Kampfes bleiben, ein einheitliches Europa zu schaffen. Europa kann aber eine klare Organisation nur durch die Deutschen erfahren. Eine andere Führungsmacht ist praktisch nicht vorhanden. (...) Wer Europa besitzt, der wird damit die Führung der Welt an sich reißen. In diesem Zusammenhang können wir natürlich Fragen von Recht und Unrecht überhaupt nicht zur Diskussion akzeptieren."


source: Fröhlich II, Bd. 8, S. 287ff

translation:
"From all this, however, the Führer has drawn the conclusion that the plethora of small-states, which still exist in Europe, must be liquidated as soon as possible. It must remain the goal of our struggle to create a united Europe. But Europe can only be clearly organized by Germans. There is practically no other leadership. (...) He who owns Europe will take leadership of the world. In this context we can obviously not accept questions of right and wrong to be brought to the discussion."

Of course, for any denier who asks "where did this diary come from? who came across it? in what format is it written? how did it survive the war? how did the allies gain possession of it? where does it currently reside?" just redirect them to a basic encyclopedia
Last edited by Aaron Richards on Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:31 am

At least this a descent post.
source
These diaries are total fabrications of the USSR by the NKVD or their successor the KGB.

Goebbels, Joseph: The Diaries, The complete fragments, edited by Elke Fröhlich on behalf of the Institut für Zeitgeschichte and in cooperation with the German Federal Archives, Saur 1987
This edition of the complete Goebbels Diaries is based on Lochner's finding and the rest of the original diary pages, which have been searched for and found on the instruction of the [communist] GDR-government in the former Reichskanzlei [this building was blown up and torn down by the Soviets from February 1949 on - but Irving writes in the introduction to his book The unknown Dr. Goebbels - The secret diaries 1938 that the communist GDR-government in 1969 conducted a investigation which they should have done decades ago: In this year 1969 they searched the ruins of Hitler's Reichskanzlei and found nine aluminium-boxes containing typewrited as well as handwritten Goebbels-diaries in miserable condition [p.9] How is that possible? The building had been destroyed 20 years ago by the Sovjets - the Führerbunker was not destoyed then, but it has been closely examined by the Sovjets and the other Allies (e.g. Trevor-Roper, then a MI6-officer) in order to find out what has happened to Hitler - they would certainly not have left behind nine aluminium-boxes with Goebbels' diaries, I'm quite sure]
David Irving's discovery of the original Agfa Autolith Microfiche-glass-copies of the diaries in 1992, which have been made on Goebbels' instructions before the war ended and which are in the possession of the former secret Sovjet State Archives in Moscow, obviously confirms the authenticity of the Lochner findig, which is now at the Hoover Institution library in Stanford, California, as well as that of those diaries which have been found by the former [communist] GDR-government.

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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by Denying-History » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:56 am

Nice copy and paste from Codoh… However it would probably be best if you took the route of Thomas Dalton.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:59 am

Denying-History wrote:Nice copy and paste from Codoh… However it would probably be best if you took the route of Thomas Dalton.
Nah its as fake as it comes... don'I believe in constantly reinventing the wheel on discounted trash...I follow the path of Sir Thomas Aquinas.

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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:11 am

IFWF
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by Denying-History » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:16 am

Lol Yeah, sorry... Cannot even take you seriously if you deny the Diary's authenticity. Its affirmed by all major players in the revisionist field that I know of or just simply not commented on.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:23 am

Denying-History wrote:Lol Yeah, sorry... Cannot even take you seriously if you deny the Diary's authenticity. Its affirmed by all major players in the revisionist field that I know of or just simply not commented on.
That is fine it is just the old trick used of having 90% of it authentic but with a few bit and pieces put in to alter the context. Old disinformation trick.
It a bit like the bible, at one stage all believe now in most of the world it is regarded as a fabrication. The diary is discounted so please do not present it again.

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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by Nessie » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:19 am

VFX wrote:At least this a descent post.
source
Source of what? That link has nothing to do with the topic.
These diaries are total fabrications of the USSR by the NKVD or their successor the KGB.

Goebbels, Joseph: The Diaries, The complete fragments, edited by Elke Fröhlich on behalf of the Institut für Zeitgeschichte and in cooperation with the German Federal Archives, Saur 1987
This edition of the complete Goebbels Diaries is based on Lochner's finding and the rest of the original diary pages, which have been searched for and found on the instruction of the [communist] GDR-government in the former Reichskanzlei [this building was blown up and torn down by the Soviets from February 1949 on - but Irving writes in the introduction to his book The unknown Dr. Goebbels - The secret diaries 1938 that the communist GDR-government in 1969 conducted a investigation which they should have done decades ago: In this year 1969 they searched the ruins of Hitler's Reichskanzlei and found nine aluminium-boxes containing typewrited as well as handwritten Goebbels-diaries in miserable condition [p.9] How is that possible? The building had been destroyed 20 years ago by the Sovjets - the Führerbunker was not destoyed then, but it has been closely examined by the Sovjets and the other Allies (e.g. Trevor-Roper, then a MI6-officer) in order to find out what has happened to Hitler - they would certainly not have left behind nine aluminium-boxes with Goebbels' diaries, I'm quite sure]
David Irving's discovery of the original Agfa Autolith Microfiche-glass-copies of the diaries in 1992, which have been made on Goebbels' instructions before the war ended and which are in the possession of the former secret Sovjet State Archives in Moscow, obviously confirms the authenticity of the Lochner findig, which is now at the Hoover Institution library in Stanford, California, as well as that of those diaries which have been found by the former [communist] GDR-government.
None of that is evidence, let alone proof the diary or certain entries were faked. Indeed, the discovery of microfiche copies separate from the diary is evidence they are not faked, surely?
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:44 am

Nessie wrote:
None of that is evidence, let alone proof the diary or certain entries were faked. Indeed, the discovery of microfiche copies separate from the diary is evidence they are not faked, surely?
Wiki entry
The boxes of glass plates containing the microfilmed diaries were sent in April 1945 to Potsdam just west of Berlin, where they were buried. The original handwritten and typed diaries were packed and stored in the Reich Chancellery. Some of these survived, and formed the basis for the publication of sections of the diaries (mainly from the war years) after the war. The boxes of glass plates at Potsdam werediscovered by the Soviets and shipped to Moscow, where they sat unopened (yeah right) until they were discovered by the German historian Elke Fröhlich in 1992. Only then did the publication of the full diaries become possible.

The fact that these ended up behind the Iron Curtain and the knowledge of Soviet propaganda methods would not give much credibility to these items. These people are the masters of deception and forgery. They actually run the best intelligence agencies in the world. To be honest Goebbels would not write anything against Hitler incase he was betrayed. The SD would have had him spied on: the Nazis were also very good spies. As Goebbels suffered from depression an astute person like Adolf would have sensed disloyalty in a short period of time. When you are depressed you cannot hide body language. The real concern of course is the fact that these were in Soviet hands.

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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by Nessie » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:50 am

So, the hypothesis is that the Soviets found the diaries, faked some entries, made microfiche copies, put them both back into separate storage and waited until they were found. Is that right?
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:55 am

Nessie wrote:So, the hypothesis is that the Soviets found the diaries, faked some entries, made microfiche copies, put them both back into separate storage and waited until they were found. Is that right?
The Soviet KGB and their successors the SVR are the masters of this stuff. I do not have faith in those documents due to that knowledge. Either way these are just the thoughts of some depressed dude, who in a depressed state wrote down emotions etc and misperceptions. interesting but not overly important. I put them in the same category as the Hitler diaries.

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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by Denying-History » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:58 am

VFX wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Lol Yeah, sorry... Cannot even take you seriously if you deny the Diary's authenticity. Its affirmed by all major players in the revisionist field that I know of or just simply not commented on.
That is fine it is just the old trick used of having 90% of it authentic but with a few bit and pieces put in to alter the context. Old disinformation trick.
It a bit like the bible, at one stage all believe now in most of the world it is regarded as a fabrication. The diary is discounted so please do not present it again.
Is it bits and pieces or is it again the whole diary? You didn’t given that impression from the start. And if your saying the context is altered then you are changing the story, saying these are real passages but have been distorted of meaning. This would be taking Dalton route of admitting these passages exist and trying to explain what they mean. While I disagree with Dalton his attempts are at least something.

Fabricated and misrepresented are not interchangeable.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:03 am

Denying-History wrote: Is it bits and pieces or is it again the whole diary? You didn’t given that impression from the start. And if your saying the context is altered then you are changing the story, saying these are real passages but have been distorted of meaning. This would be taking Dalton route of admitting these passages exist and trying to explain what they mean. While I disagree with Dalton his attempts are at least something.

Fabricated and misrepresented are not interchangeable.
I am saying that due to the Soviet involvement and my knowledge of Soviet misinformation I simply have no faith in those documents. I also dont care about them. Just like I dont care about the bible. Until further evidence out of soviet control and totally independent those diaries are just not applicable. What others think is of little importance.

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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by Nessie » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:05 am

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:So, the hypothesis is that the Soviets found the diaries, faked some entries, made microfiche copies, put them both back into separate storage and waited until they were found. Is that right?
The Soviet KGB and their successors the SVR are the masters of this stuff. I do not have faith in those documents due to that knowledge. Either way these are just the thoughts of some depressed dude, who in a depressed state wrote down emotions etc and misperceptions. interesting but not overly important. I put them in the same category as the Hitler diaries.
In the same way, you dismiss them because A, they say things you do want to hear and B, you do not trust the Soviets at all, I believe them because A, they say things you do want to hear and B, I do not trust deniers at all.

When I use your reasons for dismissing the diaries as reasons to accept them, do you still think they are good reasons?
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by Denying-History » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:07 am

VFX wrote:
Denying-History wrote: Is it bits and pieces or is it again the whole diary? You didn’t given that impression from the start. And if your saying the context is altered then you are changing the story, saying these are real passages but have been distorted of meaning. This would be taking Dalton route of admitting these passages exist and trying to explain what they mean. While I disagree with Dalton his attempts are at least something.

Fabricated and misrepresented are not interchangeable.
I am saying that due to the Soviet involvement and my knowledge of Soviet misinformation I simply have no faith in those documents. I also dont care about them. Just like I dont care about the bible. Until further evidence out of soviet control and totally independent those diaries are just not applicable. What others think is of little importance.
Your acting like no one here is familiar with Soviet “misinformation”. It’s again a question of are these authentic passages or not? Irving seems to agree they are if my memory serves me right, although I do remember something about him omitting passages proving Hitlers guilt.

It matters if Dalton is right as well, considering it would just ether show the person you sourced to be wrong or that he is wrong.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:11 am

I am saying because I have no faith in the authenticity of these diaries I have not worried about them in great detail. Others here are more qualified than I am. I have simply dismissed them. I might look at them some time.

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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by Denying-History » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:13 am

That’s fine, but having suspicions isn’t evidence. You are free to believe that all you want but you just took something random off Codoh. All I can really tell you is that you should expect only silence as a reply.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:18 am

Denying-History wrote:That’s fine, but having suspicions isn’t evidence. You are free to believe that all you want but you just took something random off Codoh. All I can really tell you is that you should expect only silence as a reply.
That is fine, what is said at CODOH is often correct. Being in Soviet hands is evidence enough: the chain of evidence is broken and that is why it cannot be classed as credible.

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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:12 am

>> Is it bits and pieces or is it again the whole diary?

It is the parts they struggle with, when they struggle with them. IFWF!!!
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by Nessie » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:57 pm

VFX wrote:I am saying because I have no faith in the authenticity of these diaries I have not worried about them in great detail. Others here are more qualified than I am. I have simply dismissed them. I might look at them some time.
You have dismissed them because in denier opinion they are dodgy and they say what you do not want to hear. As usual, denial is evidence free. Instead, it shows an incredible arrogance that opinion = evidence.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:22 pm

Amazing. He outright admits that he dismisses the diary, just because.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:15 pm

VFX wrote:
Denying-History wrote:That’s fine, but having suspicions isn’t evidence. You are free to believe that all you want but you just took something random off Codoh. All I can really tell you is that you should expect only silence as a reply.
That is fine, what is said at CODOH is often correct. Being in Soviet hands is evidence enough: the chain of evidence is broken and that is why it cannot be classed as credible.
Well done at keeping this conversation on track and not getting into any of the usual childish nonsense that has become this forum. In my opinion there's been some good evidence presented as Goebbels diaries and also good evidence to discount that as fake. Information coming out in the 90's is still information, but it really has to be taken with a grain of salt due to the delay!

Do you know what the acronym IFWF means. I couldn't find it in the urban dictionary but want to know if it's the usual insulting spam from the individual who used it a few times.

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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by Nessie » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:22 pm

montgomery wrote:
VFX wrote:
Denying-History wrote:That’s fine, but having suspicions isn’t evidence. You are free to believe that all you want but you just took something random off Codoh. All I can really tell you is that you should expect only silence as a reply.
That is fine, what is said at CODOH is often correct. Being in Soviet hands is evidence enough: the chain of evidence is broken and that is why it cannot be classed as credible.
Well done at keeping this conversation on track and not getting into any of the usual childish nonsense that has become this forum. In my opinion there's been some good evidence presented as Goebbels diaries and also good evidence to discount that as fake. ....
No evidence has been produced to show the diary or any entry has been faked. Only opinion.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:37 pm

Not enough evidence has been produced to prove that it's authentic. Always remember that the burden of proof is on the side that promotes the holocaust legend. That's how any skeptic on any issue would demand it to be.

If America landed on the moon, prove it. (fwiw it's been proven)
If the bible story is factual then prove it!

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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:19 pm

montgomery wrote:Not enough evidence has been produced to prove that it's authentic.
Please list the evidence provided for the diary's authenticity.
Always remember that the burden of proof is on the side that promotes the holocaust legend.
No. The burden of proof is on the claimant. If someone claims no mass gassing happened at Birkenau, the burden of proof is on them to prove there was no mass gassing.

I can prove there was no mass gassing of the Germans interred on the Isle of Man during WWII. No witness, no documents, no forensics, no motive, no locus, no guilty conduct after the crime, nothing evidences mass gassing by the British there. I can also show that the Germans interred on the island left and resettled back in the UK or went elsewhere. I have just proved my claim.

Deniers cannot do the same for the Jewish people kept in Nazi captivity and sent to the AR camps.
That's how any skeptic on any issue would demand it to be.

If America landed on the moon, prove it. (fwiw it's been proven)
If the bible story is factual then prove it!
Your ignorant claim about the burden of proof is evidence you are not a genuine sceptic and you do not understand scepticism.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:27 pm

Nessie wrote: Your ignorant claim about the burden of proof is evidence you are not a genuine sceptic and you do not understand scepticism.
If I say in my shed there is an invisible man which only I can see exists: does the burden of proof lie with me to prove it to you, or will you dismiss that claim due to lack of evidence ? Or do I say, because you cannot find the evidence my invisible man does not exist, he must do. I could pay a neighbour to say he saw it and use him as eye witness testimony.

There is no difference to the reasoning Nessie. The only reason why we do not think the explanation you give is viable is entirely due to lack of hard concrete evidence.

This issue is like the existence of god. To be honest those who claim god exists have the onus of proof on them to support that claim, otherwise, and rightfully so the claim should be rejected.

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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:36 pm

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote: Your ignorant claim about the burden of proof is evidence you are not a genuine sceptic and you do not understand scepticism.
If I say in my shed there is an invisible man which only I can see exists: does the burden of proof lie with me to prove it to you
Yes.
or will you dismiss that claim due to lack of evidence ? Or do I say, because you cannot find the evidence my invisible man does not exist, he must do. I could pay a neighbour to say he saw it and use him as eye witness testimony.

There is no difference to the reasoning Nessie. The only reason why we do not think the explanation you give is viable is entirely due to lack of hard concrete evidence.

This issue is like the existence of god. To be honest those who claim god exists have the onus of proof on them to support that claim, otherwise, and rightfully so the claim should be rejected.
Until you at least start to evidence the existence of the invisible man and God, I will remain a complete doubter. If you start to provide some evidence, I will become more open minded to you being correct and they exist. Once you provide independent corroborated evidence to a sufficient standard (the more extreme the claim the more evidence required) I will believe.

Deniers cannot even start to provide evidence of the mass survival of those they say were not gassed.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by Aaron Richards » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:04 pm

Can we get back from arguing over semantics to the issue at hand?

VFX and montgomery are demanding for "more proof" that the diary is authentic. My question is: since you are the party making this demand, the onus is on you to also explain what this "more proof" should specifically look like, i.e. define "more proof" more precisely.

1) One fact that tackles any allegations the whole diary is a post-war forgery is that we have evidence of the diary's existence before 1945, before the Second War War, even.

2) One fact that tackles any allegations that only the handwritten part of the diary is genuine, while the typewritten pages are a postwar forgery is that is that we have evidence of the diary being typewritten 1941 onward.

3) One fact that tackles any allegations that only the handwritten/typewritten part of the diary are genuine, while the microfilm rolls in the Soviet archives are a postwar forgery is that is that we have evidence of the diary being microfilmed in 1944/45.

4) One fact that tackles any allegations that perhaps the diary upto 1939 might have been genuine, but the incriminating passages from 1941, 42, 43 etc. are a postwar forgery, is that they appear on both the typewritten pages that ended up in possession of the Americans and were published in 1948, as well as on the microfilm rolls in the Moscow Archives.

5) And finally, keep in mind that Goebbels' diary was not used during the Nuremberg Trials even though it had already been in possession of the Russians and the Americans - with the latter even being fully aware about the potential author of those papers. In fact, the reluctance of the American government to (at that time) accept the diary as genuine and therefore enter it as evidence can only be interpreted as proof they did not forge it.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:43 pm

David Irving, finder of the microfiche copy in Moscow is happy enough it is genuine;

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v15/v15n1p-2_Irving.html

"I can’t tell you just who tipped me off about this, as it would breach confidentiality, but there are certain German historians who are friendly to me, and one of them tipped me that the material was just waiting to be found by someone. I went to Moscow and got this material..."
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:54 pm

Aaron Richards wrote:Can we get back from arguing over semantics to the issue at hand?

VFX and montgomery are demanding for "more proof" that the diary is authentic. My question is: since you are the party making this demand, the onus is on you to also explain what this "more proof" should specifically look like, i.e. define "more proof" more precisely.
Personally, I'm not asking for more proof. I'm acknowledging the alternative proof. Two different versions of the proof, that contradict each other.
1) One fact that tackles any allegations the whole diary is a post-war forgery is that we have evidence of the diary's existence before 1945, before the Second War War, even.
It's evidence but if it wasn't presented then it's weak evidence. And I would suggest that comment would hold true for the rest of your evidence 2 to 5.
2) One fact that tackles any allegations that only the handwritten part of the diary is genuine, while the typewritten pages are a postwar forgery is that is that we have evidence of the diary being typewritten 1941 onward.

3) One fact that tackles any allegations that only the handwritten/typewritten part of the diary are genuine, while the microfilm rolls in the Soviet archives are a postwar forgery is that is that we have evidence of the diary being microfilmed in 1944/45.

4) One fact that tackles any allegations that perhaps the diary upto 1939 might have been genuine, but the incriminating passages from 1941, 42, 43 etc. are a postwar forgery, is that they appear on both the typewritten pages that ended up in possession of the Americans and were published in 1948, as well as on the microfilm rolls in the Moscow Archives.

5) And finally, keep in mind that Goebbels' diary was not used during the Nuremberg Trials even though it had already been in possession of the Russians and the Americans - with the latter even being fully aware about the potential author of those papers. In fact, the reluctance of the American government to (at that time) accept the diary as genuine and therefore enter it as evidence can only be interpreted as proof they did not forge it.
[/quote]

It's up to me to weigh all of that and award it the appropriate weight it deserves. I'm doing my best but it's still my opinion that the onus is on the holocaust promotion side. How others weigh the evidence both pro and con is up to them. And I say that because the childish namecalling and abuse evidenced on this forum does nothing but diminish the credibility of those who are guilty of doing that.

It's changed a lot for the better but there are a few holdouts. Can you help us to stop it?

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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:12 pm

Nessie wrote:David Irving, finder of the microfiche copy in Moscow is happy enough it is genuine;

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v15/v15n1p-2_Irving.html

"I can’t tell you just who tipped me off about this, as it would breach confidentiality, but there are certain German historians who are friendly to me, and one of them tipped me that the material was just waiting to be found by someone. I went to Moscow and got this material..."
It's a lot of reading Nessie and I assume you've read it. So I'll ask you to refer to the sections that make the point. If we accept Irving, as the questionable source the holocaust promotion side has always maintained, then we are going to have to look closely at just what he's accepting that would be of value to your argument.

This is why I'm asking you to refer to Irving's comments on the parts of the diary that are of interest to us. I note on a quick scan of the piece that the diary is claimed to have come out in dribs and drabs over the years.

One pertinent section I found interesting in my quick scan over the document was "Hitler's Final Solution", which refers to the Madagascar idea which never came to fruition. Details on the alternative from Goebbels diary would seem to me to be perhaps the most pertinent information.

And finally, is the Goebbels diary authentic? Considering how it's come out over the years in dribs and drabs, it's going to take a lot of close analysis to determine the question in its entirety. This is the sort of evidence being presented now at this late date, that I would consider as putting the onus of proving the claims on the side of the accusers.

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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:50 pm

So if the Goebbels diaries are forged and therefore worthless, how is it that revisionists have use them as definitive proof of the death toll at Dresden?

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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:52 pm

:lol:
.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:18 pm

montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:David Irving, finder of the microfiche copy in Moscow is happy enough it is genuine;

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v15/v15n1p-2_Irving.html

"I can’t tell you just who tipped me off about this, as it would breach confidentiality, but there are certain German historians who are friendly to me, and one of them tipped me that the material was just waiting to be found by someone. I went to Moscow and got this material..."
It's a lot of reading Nessie and I assume you've read it. So I'll ask you to refer to the sections that make the point.
I just did, above. Both Irving and his German source have no doubts it is original.
If we accept Irving, as the questionable source the holocaust promotion side has always maintained, then we are going to have to look closely at just what he's accepting that would be of value to your argument.

This is why I'm asking you to refer to Irving's comments on the parts of the diary that are of interest to us. I note on a quick scan of the piece that the diary is claimed to have come out in dribs and drabs over the years.

One pertinent section I found interesting in my quick scan over the document was "Hitler's Final Solution", which refers to the Madagascar idea which never came to fruition. Details on the alternative from Goebbels diary would seem to me to be perhaps the most pertinent information.

And finally, is the Goebbels diary authentic? Considering how it's come out over the years in dribs and drabs, it's going to take a lot of close analysis to determine the question in its entirety. This is the sort of evidence being presented now at this late date, that I would consider as putting the onus of proving the claims on the side of the accusers.
It is Irving who is in a better place to judge the authenticity than most. As much as I disagree with much of his analysis, like Mattogno, he knows his way around an archive and a primary source.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:25 pm

You want us to accept the authenticity of the Goebbels diary. I'm suggesting that there's not much point in doing that if there's no specifics being suggested in the evidence it is supposed to reveal. And then there is the problem of it coming out in dribs and drabs.

I think it's not unreasonable for me to say that some of the diary could be authentic. Then the question still remains, just what parts are authentic and what evidence do they impart to us.

That's where you so far choose to leave the topic, and that's why I asked for specific references on that lengthy piece of information by Irving.

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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:30 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:So if the Goebbels diaries are forged and therefore worthless, how is it that revisionists have use them as definitive proof of the death toll at Dresden?
montgomery wrote:You want us to accept the authenticity of the Goebbels diary. I'm suggesting that there's not much point in doing that...I think it's not unreasonable for me to say that some of the diary could be authentic...
:lol:
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:47 pm

montgomery wrote:You want us to accept the authenticity of the Goebbels diary. I'm suggesting that there's not much point in doing that if there's no specifics being suggested in the evidence it is supposed to reveal. And then there is the problem of it coming out in dribs and drabs.

I think it's not unreasonable for me to say that some of the diary could be authentic. Then the question still remains, just what parts are authentic and what evidence do they impart to us.

That's where you so far choose to leave the topic, and that's why I asked for specific references on that lengthy piece of information by Irving.
A reminder that it is your claim it is not original, so I have no work to do at all. I just pointed out that if it is good enough for Irving, his German source and various other historians with a far more detailed knowledge than mine, it is presently good enough for me.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:48 pm

>> I think it's not unreasonable for me to say that some of the diary could be authentic

It is if you can't give strong reasons for saying it and if you can't give a better response about Irving and if you can't give a detailed, cogent, and responsive argument for Aaron's post on the authenticity of the diary. And blowing hot air Aaron's way doesn't count. You've not laid a glove on his case.
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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:59 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:So if the Goebbels diaries are forged and therefore worthless, how is it that revisionists have use them as definitive proof of the death toll at Dresden?
montgomery wrote:You want us to accept the authenticity of the Goebbels diary. I'm suggesting that there's not much point in doing that...I think it's not unreasonable for me to say that some of the diary could be authentic...
:lol:
I knew that was coming before I started writing :lol:

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Re: Holocaust proof via Goebbels' Diary entries

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:01 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:>> I think it's not unreasonable for me to say that some of the diary could be authentic

It is if you can't give strong reasons for saying it and if you can't give a better response about Irving and if you can't give a detailed, cogent, and responsive argument for Aaron's post on the authenticity of the diary. And blowing hot air Aaron's way doesn't count. You've not laid a glove on his case.
As I said above. This is at least the sort of comment from you that deserves noticing.