A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:45 am

I think it’s funny how our new member thinks he is educating me when essentially all he has is...well...nothing.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:49 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I think it’s funny how our new member thinks he is educating me when essentially all he has is...well...nothing.
Jeff what you have given is less than half of zero. You are all crap with no wind: not even a fart against a dutch windmill. It is a bit sad your two ears are so cojoined as to lower your dribbling bottom jaw.

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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:53 am

So, hey, if there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz and we know 100,000 + Hungarian Jews were transferred out to other camps, what happened to the 300,000 missing Hungarian Jews?

Errrr, um, well, the Soviet Union swallowed them up.

Proof?

None.

Okey dokey.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:02 am

People changed their name and assimilated into the USSR legally behind the Iron curtain. Simple.


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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:31 am

LOL
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:31 am

I know I always learn my history from YouTube....

:rotfl:
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:34 am

Here’s the funny thing, I don’t think VFX actually watched that video. The guy is wrong but what he is actually saying the other dead were not technically Jews. The number is still around 6 million.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:37 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Here’s the funny thing, I don’t think
Yup Jeff you got that right. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
The Shoah is only about Jude, not the other 64 million that perished in that conflict. Adding another 64 million on or some dead bodies in between is acceptable. I personally didn't do a body count, what about you.?

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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:05 am

VFX just admitted he didn’t watch the video. That’s funny as hell.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:12 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:VFX just admitted he didn’t watch the video. That’s funny as hell.
Now you are trolling. You are funnier than a blue muffin in orbit around Jupiter and far less credible, If you get my drift for a muffin.

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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:36 am

No, really, VFX didn’t watch the video. That’s truly amusing.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:53 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:No, really, VFX didn’t watch the video. That’s truly amusing.
Do you have hard evidence to support that assertion or just your normal cloud drift with teenage cloud fantasies. I would suggest you look at the content of the video and forget about the messenger. His figures coincide exactly with our evidence, Oh do some work Jeff it does bring freedom.

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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:05 am

What VFX doesn’t realize is that I’ve seen that video before. The reason why this idiot is saying that only 1 million Jews died is the rest weren’t technically Jews due to intermarriage and other reasons. So, five million non-Jews due to intermarriage, etc.

So....VFX didn’t watch the video.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:07 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:What VFX doesn’t realize is that I’ve seen that video before. The reason why this idiot is saying that only 1 million Jews died is the rest weren’t technically Jews due to intermarriage and other reasons. So, five million non-Jews due to intermarriage, etc.

So....VFX didn’t watch the video.
No he was talking about assimilation. Get it dude :)

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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by Nessie » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:48 am

montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:A troll just further evidenced my claim about it.
Really Nessie, there is no evidence that can stand scrutiny by people who are at least questioning the holocaust claims.
Those who investigated the claims of mass gassing after the war ready for the various trials dismissed many of the claims as unevidenced hearsay and false. The historians who have investigated over the past 50 years or so, have only found evidence that added to the existing evidence that certain camps were used to mass gas. Various journalists have also investigated and amongst the word done, they have uncovered people who have lied about what happened. The so called "official" side has been sceptical and questioned the claims made.

The denial side has done very little actual investigation and its idea of questioning is actually the fallacies of arguments from incredulity and ignorance.
But it's not only that anymore, it's the fact that far too many lies and exaggerations have been piled on that can't survive because the lies and exaggerations were so poorly conceived back in the 40's and 50's. And modern amendments to thost can't be accepted as sound evidence.
The denial sources you are referring to cherry pick the dubious evidence (which is in any case not used by the "official" side) and claim all the evidence is bogus. If you read all the evidence and not just the dubious evidence, you would have a much better understanding of what happened.
I'm surprised that it's all been shattered as bogus and turned to dust so easily by a skeptic that came to this forum mostly uninformed.
That arrogance is common amongst the deniers I have dealt with over the years. The idea that since a denier, who has done very little reading and no genuine investigation, can prove there was no Holocaust, without presenting any evidence, is utterly ridiculous.
Let your cohorts scream their obscenities and insults, they only make it more plain that they lack a a real arguement to uphold the holocaust claims. Maybe it's time for you to take stock of the beliefs that have been pounded into your own head over years of unquestioning loyalty to the cause.
It is time you did what I do and accept what can be evidenced and dismiss what is not evidenced. Follow the evidence and ignore opinion and speculation.
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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:29 pm

Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:A troll just further evidenced my claim about it.
Really Nessie, there is no evidence that can stand scrutiny by people who are at least questioning the holocaust claims.
Those who investigated the claims of mass gassing after the war ready for the various trials dismissed many of the claims as unevidenced hearsay and false. The historians who have investigated over the past 50 years or so, have only found evidence that added to the existing evidence that certain camps were used to mass gas. Various journalists have also investigated and amongst the word done, they have uncovered people who have lied about what happened. The so called "official" side has been sceptical and questioned the claims made.

The denial side has done very little actual investigation and its idea of questioning is actually the fallacies of arguments from incredulity and ignorance.
But it's not only that anymore, it's the fact that far too many lies and exaggerations have been piled on that can't survive because the lies and exaggerations were so poorly conceived back in the 40's and 50's. And modern amendments to thost can't be accepted as sound evidence.
The denial sources you are referring to cherry pick the dubious evidence (which is in any case not used by the "official" side) and claim all the evidence is bogus. If you read all the evidence and not just the dubious evidence, you would have a much better understanding of what happened.
I'm surprised that it's all been shattered as bogus and turned to dust so easily by a skeptic that came to this forum mostly uninformed.
That arrogance is common amongst the deniers I have dealt with over the years. The idea that since a denier, who has done very little reading and no genuine investigation, can prove there was no Holocaust, without presenting any evidence, is utterly ridiculous.
Let your cohorts scream their obscenities and insults, they only make it more plain that they lack a a real arguement to uphold the holocaust claims. Maybe it's time for you to take stock of the beliefs that have been pounded into your own head over years of unquestioning loyalty to the cause.
It is time you did what I do and accept what can be evidenced and dismiss what is not evidenced. Follow the evidence and ignore opinion and speculation.
The denier who cam to this forum knowing 'little' about the holocaust only had to have an open mind and be able to weigh the evidence carefully. That failure of anecdotal evidence to be convincing and the demeanor of the H.P.'ers, sealed it for me. I think it would seal it for any intelligent observer who wasn't already brainwashed from the cradle withe the myth.

That which I've learned, I'm happy to discuss. I'm now at the point of having to believe that there is something salvageble left to believe on the holocaust when I now know that the lies and exaggerations on the small part we have discussed here, are going to fly in the face of legend we haven't discussed.

This forum desperately needs a real historian with proper manners who won't fall to pieces and become hostile at any suggestion that he/she is not repeating truths. Truths that became impossibilities 75 years ago.

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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by Nessie » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:03 pm

You have been shown direct eye witnesses to gassings. The anecdotal evidence was what you found in Mattogno's book, whereby he ignored the direct eye witnesses, to create the impression there is only anecdotal evidence. You showed yourself to be not very enquiring by failing to recognised that.
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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:25 pm

All that is seen is people going into shower rooms, people heading down some track or in the case of Erna Rubinstein who noticed that water actually came out of the shower lol. Mietek Grocher who escapes by walking backwards when the guards are not looking. Peter Wigmore's mother who was pulled times from the line of the gassed to be. The tales grow taller by the day and so do the noses of these Pinochios.

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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:47 pm

Nessie wrote:You have been shown direct eye witnesses to gassings. The anecdotal evidence was what you found in Mattogno's book, whereby he ignored the direct eye witnesses, to create the impression there is only anecdotal evidence. You showed yourself to be not very enquiring by failing to recognised that.
I've been shown nothing but outright fakers and frauds and imposters. The H.P. fraternity is at a complete loss on having a genuine eye witness they can stand behind.

I would go elsewhere to find a real holocaust historian if I thought for a minute that one actually existed.

You rude people have made your beds, now it's time to lie in them. Expect the same abuse back from me that you've been so happy to dish out ever since I started on this board.

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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by Nessie » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:50 am

montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:You have been shown direct eye witnesses to gassings. The anecdotal evidence was what you found in Mattogno's book, whereby he ignored the direct eye witnesses, to create the impression there is only anecdotal evidence. You showed yourself to be not very enquiring by failing to recognised that.
I've been shown nothing but outright fakers and frauds and imposters.
No, you have been given lists of name, most of whom you have not read. How can you know they are frauds if you have not read them?
The H.P. fraternity is at a complete loss on having a genuine eye witness they can stand behind.
No, you have been given lists of them and individual suggestions.
I would go elsewhere to find a real holocaust historian if I thought for a minute that one actually existed.

You rude people have made your beds, now it's time to lie in them. Expect the same abuse back from me that you've been so happy to dish out ever since I started on this board.
People get annoyed at you because you are being given information that has taken a long time to research and prepare and then you just dismiss it without reading.
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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by Darren Wilshak » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:48 am

HP sauce for all it matters. Sad for Revisionism that all they have left is this baloney.

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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by montgomery » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:28 pm

Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:You have been shown direct eye witnesses to gassings. The anecdotal evidence was what you found in Mattogno's book, whereby he ignored the direct eye witnesses, to create the impression there is only anecdotal evidence. You showed yourself to be not very enquiring by failing to recognised that.
I've been shown nothing but outright fakers and frauds and imposters.
No, you have been given lists of name, most of whom you have not read. How can you know they are frauds if you have not read them?
The H.P. fraternity is at a complete loss on having a genuine eye witness they can stand behind.
No, you have been given lists of them and individual suggestions.
I would go elsewhere to find a real holocaust historian if I thought for a minute that one actually existed.

You rude people have made your beds, now it's time to lie in them. Expect the same abuse back from me that you've been so happy to dish out ever since I started on this board.
People get annoyed at you because you are being given information that has taken a long time to research and prepare and then you just dismiss it without reading.
Too bad if people get anxious and annoyed. I've finally been given a specific name by Doc Terry and it's a complete washout. We'll pursue that one further now, fwiw, because it didn't see the light of day until 2003 apparently. I'll ask VFX for more info on that particular character but you're more than welcome to research him out too.

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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:30 am

VFX wrote:As Monty said there is nothing that has indicated the truth of this great hoax.
I have to credit the poster known as "Ozy_Substance" for this list. Let's get started with these now NSDAP, shall we?

1) Korherr Report. Where over 2 million Jews are allegedly evacuated to Russian East via camps. That's a good stand-alone piece of evidence but deniers can play around with it, saying "evacuation" actually means what it is and 2 million Jews indeed found themselves in the USSR and vanished there into the void.

2) Hofle Telegram, that goes hand-in-hand with the Korherr Report.

3) The Meldung 51 document, which tells of massacare of partisans and Jews. The document speficially says 363,211 Jews were massacared within 4 months in the area of Biyalistok. I think this is a good stand-alone evidence because it speficially says "Juden Exekutiert" and deniers cannot play with the meaning of the words here.

4) The 97,000 and 3 vans document. The document which tells how 97,000 were processed using 3 vans, and later on saying the load is panicking and pushing against the door - leaving no question the load here is a living creature. I know that in the HC blog there is an article linking this document to Chelmno.

5) Jager Report.

6) Posen Speeches by Himmler.

7) Graphic pictures from events like the Lviv Pogrom or the Liepaja Massacare.

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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:49 am

another Oozy special: http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=29525

and 34 pieces of evidence linking the Führer to the mass murder of Jews:

1. Gestapo Müller, directive on Einsatzgruppen reports, 1 August 1941 (Fleming, pp 109-110, Unwritten, p 124, http://www.genocideeducation.ca/kershaw.pdf)

2. Himmler, instructions to Bradfisch in Minsk, mid-August 1941 (Fleming, pp 50-51)

3. Himmler, explanation, late summer 1941, as related in 1962 by Horst Bender, dept III Himmler’s staff and SS and Police Judge (Fleming, p 51)

4. Himmler, explanation, September 1941, Streckenbach 1962 interrogation (Fleming, p 52)

5. Himmler, explanation, before Heydrich’s death, date unclear, Gottlob Berger 1962 interrogation (Fleming, p 52)

6. Jeckeln, instructions from Himmler, 10-11 November 1941 (Fleming, p 44)

7. Hitler, from notes on meeting with Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini, 28 November 1941 (Fleming, pp 102-105; https://digitalcommons.iwu.edu/cgi/view ... nstructing)

8. Goebbels’ diary, 13 December 1941 (Unwritten, p 154; https://www.hdot.org/longrole/# - http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Micro ... 203875.pdf)

9. Rosenberg diary, 14 December 1941 (Unwritten, p 155)

10. Frank speech, 16 December 1941 (http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... moval.html, Gerlach's Wannsee article)

11. Himmler diary, 18 December 1941 (Unwritten, p 155)

12. Eichmann interrogation, preceding Wannsee Conference - late 1941? (Fleming, p 67)

13. Goebbels diary, 14 February 1942 (Unwritten, p 157)

14. Goebbels diary, 2 March 1942 (https://digitalcommons.iwu.edu/cgi/view ... nstructing)

15. Goebbels diary, 20 March 1942 (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/goe ... ts-01.html)

16. Goebbels diary, 27 March 1942 (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/goe ... ts-01.html - Fleming pp 62-63, 111, Unwritten, pp 172-173)

17. Wisliceny IMT testimony re: Eichmann & Final Solution order, April 1942 (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/01-03-46.asp)

18. Heydrich, Prague conference on SD and Intelligence Service responsibilities, May 1942, declaration of Otto Wagner 1979 (Fleming p 60)

19. Goebbels’ diary, 29 May 1942 (Unwritten, p 184)

20. Himmler, explanation, early summer 1942, Streckenbach 1962 interrogation (Fleming, p 52)

21. Himmler to Gottlob Berger, 28 July 1942 (https://www.hdot.org/longrole/; Fleming, p 112)

22. Himmler, announcing that armaments workers were to be collected into camps, 9 October 1942 (Unwritten, p 189; Fleming, pp 44, 128)

23. Himmler, notes on conversation with Führer, follow-up notes to Müller - on France, 6 and 10 December 1942 (Unwritten, pp 109-110; Fleming, p 66)

24. Meldung 51, 3 December 1942, Himmler to Hitler (http://www.genocideeducation.ca/kershaw.pdf; Unwritten, p 150)

25. Korherr report for Hitler, January 1943 (Fleming, pp 135-139)

26. First Schloss Klessheim meeting, 17-18 March 1943 (Fleming, pp 157-166; Unwritten, p 203; Longerich Irving Trial https://www.hdot.org/longrole/; http://www.genocideeducation.ca/kershaw.pdf)

27. Hitler, 8 June 1943 (1384-PS Red Series vol III, p 959; HC White Paper)

28. Himmler speech, Posen, to generals, 26 January 1944, declaration of Freiherr von Gersdorff 1979 (Fleming, pp 52-53)

29. Himmler, Sonthofen speech, 24 May 1944 (Fleming, p 54)

30. Himmler, secret speech, 21 June 1944 (Fleming, p 54)

31. Himmler, secret speech, 21 July 1944 (Longerich Irving Trial https://www.hdot.org/longrole/)

32. Eichmann, Sassen interviews, “. . . the order of the one-time Fuhrer of the German Reich, Adolf Hitler . . .” (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/german/ ... intro.html)

33. Eichmann memoir/papers, Ich (https://www.hdot.org/vanpelt/#note_vanPelt_xi2n1012)

34. Wetzel's 25 October 1941 letter and his 1961 Hannover testimony

References are a bit sloppy - I grabbed a lot from the following as it was easier than tracking down other places, one point being that this is not exactly news:
Fleming = Gerald Fleming, Hitler and the Final Solution
Unwritten = Longerich, The Unwritten Order
also used: https://www.phdn.org/archives/www.ess.u ... ements.htm
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/america ... tic-9.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ation.html
(I listed some postwar accounts but excluded a number cited in Fleming and elsewhere along with these items: Höss's memoir etc on account dating problems; Stuckart to Lösener 21 December 1941 on Rumbula; the NMT and Filbert Einsatzgruppen trials; Wannsee Protocol; Franke-Gricksch, Hitler’s testament 29 April 1945; Table Talk; Kaltenbrunner testimony; Kersten's memoir, and Hitler’s prophecy speeches and comments of others on them.)
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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:52 am

was looking all over for that list. Dammit you got me again! :D

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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:18 am

Partial List of Sources for Evidence about Vilnius and the Jewish Executions at Ponary

German reports and orders

* orders of Oberstleutnant Zehnpfennig, military administration
* Rosenberg - Brown File
* Lohse - Provisional Directives for commissars on Jewish policy 13 August 1941; directive on ghettos 25 August 1941
* orders issued by Gebietskommissar Hingst, German Civil Administration, esp 2 August, 1 September
* Order No. 6, Heydrich to EG chiefs, 4 July 1941 (cited in Dieckmann)
* records of the German Commissioner for Vilnius-City at the Lithuanian Central State Archive [hereafter cited as LCVA], collection R–614, series 1, folder 409a.
* KTB-Anlagen of the 403. Sicherungs-Division
* Vilnius Gestapo and Security Police records
* von Osten 25 June Order No. 1, co-signed with Zakevicius; 3 July order
* 14 July 1941, the German Battle-Field Commander in Vilnius, Col. Adolf Zehnpfennig, ordered A. Spokevicius to form "Vilnius Construction Battalion" (hereinafter VAT (cited in Bubnys)
* records of three Dulags: 111, 123 and 155 (Dieckmann)
* documents of Zakevicius, chairman of the citizens committee, and Iskauskus, chief of police (Izkauskas report of 9 Sep )
* Dabulevicius's proclamation nr 19, 22 August 1941
* EG leaders 17 June 1941: meeting with Heydrich at his Berlin headquarters
* Heydrich notes on 26 March 1941 meeting
* Einsatzgruppen reports esp nos. 17, 21, 24
* Jäger report
* Stahlecker report
* doc 2 - TELEGRAM OF SECURITY POLICE AND SD CHIEF HEIDRICH ABOUT THE GERMAN POLICY CONCERNING SELF-DEFENSE GROUPS IN THE BALTIC COUNTRIES 29 June 1941 (Heydrich) from The Tragedy in Lithuania: 1941-1944 New Documents on Lithuanian Collaborators During the Second World War (2008).
doc 3 - REPORT OF THE TASK GROUP PA IN RSHA July 1941 from The Tragedy in Lithuania: 1941-1944 New Documents on Lithuanian Collaborators During the Second World War (2008).
* doc 6 - REPORT OF COMMANDER OF TASK TEAM 3 ON THE SOLUTION OF THE JEWISH ISSUE IN LITHUANIA July, 1941 from The Tragedy in Lithuania: 1941-1944 New Documents on Lithuanian Collaborators During the Second World War (2008).
* doc 12 - REPORT OF LITHUANIA TASK GROUP A FOR OCTOBER 1941 - JANUARY, 1942 Not earlier than January 1942 from The Tragedy in Lithuania: 1941-1944 New Documents on Lithuanian Collaborators During the Second World War (2008).
* doc 18 - REPORTS OF SECURITY POLICE ON THE SITUATION IN LITHUANIA
July, 1941 from The Tragedy in Lithuania: 1941-1944 New Documents on Lithuanian Collaborators During the Second World War (2008).
* doc 19 - ORDER OF THE 1ST DEPARTMENT OF RSHA TO COMMANDERS OF TASK GROUPS A- D
January 19, 1942, Berlin from The Tragedy in Lithuania: 1941-1944 New Documents on Lithuanian Collaborators During the Second World War (2008).
* doc 20 - ORDER OF THE WEHRMACHT SUPREME COMMAND ABOUT STATEMENTS OF UKRAINIANS AND BALTS ABOUT THE GERMAN WEHRMACHT DRAFT Strictly confidential February 23, 1942 from The Tragedy in Lithuania: 1941-1944 New Documents on Lithuanian Collaborators During the Second World War (2008).
* doc 26 - RECORD OF TASK GROUP “A” ABOUT EMPLOYMENT OF LITHUANIAN SECURITY GROUPS FOR STRUGGLE AGAINST PARTISANS
January, 1942 from The Tragedy in Lithuania: 1941-1944 New Documents on Lithuanian Collaborators During the Second World War (2008).
* doc 27 - RECORD ON THE NUMBER OF EXECUTIONS COMMITTED BY TASK GROUP “A”
AS OF FEBRUARY 1, 1942 from The Tragedy in Lithuania: 1941-1944 New Documents on Lithuanian Collaborators During the Second World War (2008).


Recorded testimonies of escapees and other witnesses

* a maid of N. - Kruk
* Motel Gdud - in Black Book
* Khiena Katz - in Black Book
* Zelda Eingorn - in Black Book
* Kruk - Trojak, Schloss, Katz, 2 unnamed
* Dworczekci - “Sonia”
* Pesya Aronovich (Aharonowicz) - in Arad, in Dworczecki’s memoir/diary - might have been “Sonia”
* Balberyszski, STI, p106, recounts a similar incident: “Much later [than mid- to late September 1941] I witnessed a case in which a wounded woman who had been taken away came back and managed to reach the ghetto hospital.”
* Kovner - Trojak (in Partisans of Vilna, day book); Eichmann trial testimony
* Rindziunski – in Arad p 172 – 17 July 1941 “a man living in the vicinity of Ponar”
* various conversations in Sakowicz
* doc 11 - A DYING LETTER OF TWO WOMEN WRITTEN BY THEM ON THEIR WAY TO THE PONAR PLACE OF EXECUTION AND THROWN OUT ON THE ROAD TO BE DELIVERED TO JEWS June 26 [. . .] from The Tragedy in Lithuania: 1941-1944 New Documents on Lithuanian Collaborators During the Second World War (2008).


Postwar testimony

* Murer
* Filbert and co-defendants, witnesses
* Liba Augenfeld described an undated escape from Ponar (although the interview is murky as to timing, the incident must have been from the Great Provocation). probably one of the six whom Kruk described as in hospital on 4 Sep. - in Partisans of Vilna
* Kovner - Eichmann trial
* Dworzecki - Eichmann trial
* Dworzecki - 1947 statement http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlesto ... =nuremberg
* Sutzkever - Nuremberg
* testimonies given by SK1005 escapees
* U.S. v. LILEIKIS
* three soldiers from German motorized column on early July 1941 shootings - in Klee
* Motke Zaidel and Itzhak Dugin - in Shoah
* doc 7 - SPECIAL REPORT OF THE 8TH DEPARTMENT OF THE 4TH OFFICE OF NKGB USSR ON ATROCITIES IN PONAR (Chief of the 8th Department of the 4th office of NKGB USSR) August 14, 1944 (SK-1005 testimony) from The Tragedy in Lithuania: 1941-1944 New Documents on Lithuanian Collaborators During the Second World War (2008).
* doc 8 - TRANSCRIPT OF INTERROGATION OF SEHNUZ S.S. ON ATROCITIES IN PONAR (SEC interrogation) August 7, 1944 from The Tragedy in Lithuania: 1941-1944 New Documents on Lithuanian Collaborators During the Second World War (2008).
* doc 10 - FROM PROTOCOL OF ACCEPTANCE OF STATEMENT OF KEMZURA ANTANAS, WHO PARTICIPATED IN EXECUTIONS OF JEWS IN VICINITIES OF VILNIUS, INCLUDING PONAR (1st Criminal Investigation Department authorized by the KGB at the Ministerial Council of the Lithuanian SSR) - January 23, 1967 from The Tragedy in Lithuania: 1941-1944 New Documents on Lithuanian Collaborators During the Second World War (2008).
* LG Würzburg vom 3.2.1950, Ks 15/49, published in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen, Bd. VI, Lfd.Nr.192. Weiss was given a life sentence for accessoriness to murder in "at least thirty thousand cases"
* LG Berlin vom 22.6.1962, 3 PKs 1/62, published in Justiz und NS-Verbrechen, Bd.XVIII, Lfd. Nr. 540. Filbert, who commanded Einsatzkommando 9 from June to October 1941, was sentenced to lifetime imprisonment on account of, among others, mass killings at Ponary committed by his unit and its Lithuanian auxiliaries

Jewish underground reports

* Aryeh Wilner, courier to Warsaw - in Kassow
* article in Neged Hazarem in October 1941 - Oct 41 Polish scout Henryk Grabowski brings news of Vilna massacres to Warsaw ghetto. These include his conversations with leaders of Hashomer Hatzair - in Kassow
* Ringelblum in one passage extolled the underground activists who "were the first to bring back the tidings about the tragedy of Vilna." Kassow mentions others being interviewed in Warsaw, by OS staff, on events in Vilna - and has Huberband writing of one transcript that "It was not regrettably an empty dream nor a mad fantasy or an evil tale but naked bitter reality." As an aside, news about Vilna reached even Perechodnik, who was in the town of Otwock and without OS-type connections, also in fall 1941. - in Kassow
* JTA news articles via Sweden
* reports on New Year’s Day 1942 underground meeting (Kovner)
* Gens Oszmiana speech

Miscellaneous

* Sutzkever - Black Book of Soviet Jewry (Lithuania section)
* contemporary maps of Vilnius

Demographic information

* 403d Security Division
* LitvakSIG names database
* JewishGen names lists from May 1942 census in collaboration with LitvakSIG and Rachel Bostonian
* Murer testimony
* index card files on Vilnius deportees to Klooga
* Polish and Lithuanian data cited in Arad GIF

Diaries

* Kazimierz Sakowicz
* Hermann Kruk
* Marek Dworzecki
* Y. Rudashevski
* Korczak
* Kalmanovitch's diary

Memoirs

* Kaczerginski in Yad Vashem : "The City of Ponary", research conducted by Shmerke Kaczerginski
* Mendel Balberyszski
* Rachel Margolis
* Sutzkever poems, esp Faces in the Swamp cycle

Mass graves

* USSR-7 ChGK report on Lithuania GARF 7021-94-1, pp.1-8
* Pony excavation report - from ТРАГЕДИЯ ЛИТВЫ: 1941–1944 годы. Сборник архивных документов о преступлениях литовских коллаборационистов в годы Второй мировой войны
* doc 9 - ACT ON ATROCITIES COMMITTED BY FASCIST AGGRESSORS IN THE PONAR DISTRICT, NEAR VILNIUS (SEC report on interrogations and excavations) Not earlier than August 26, 1946 from The Tragedy in Lithuania: 1941-1944 New Documents on Lithuanian Collaborators During the Second World War (2008).
* photographs of bodies and graves, Ponary (Yad Vashem, Chronicle of Vlina)

Other sources

Secondary accounts use the following sources, among others:
* Arad, GIF: Kruk 1961 edition; Reizel Korczak, Lehavot ba-Efer (Tel Aviv 1946); M. Dworzecki, Yersualayim de-Lita ba-Meri u-va-Sho’ah (Tel Aviv 1951); Jaeger, Y. Rudasehevski (diary published in 1973), L. Epstein (ghetto diary), A. Rindziunski (Moreshet testimony), S. Bronowski (YVA testimony); Rozauskas et al, Document Accuse
* Sutton, MJL: Kruk 1961 edition, M. Dworzecki, Yersualayim de-Lita ba-Meri u-va-Sho’ah (Tel Aviv 1951); A. Rindziunski (Moreshet testimony), S. Bistrickas, Diary of Jews Murdered in Ponar, July 1941-November 1943 (published 1977 In Vilnius, diary of witness, Lithuanian railway worker); A. Sutzkever, Getto Vilna (Tel Aviv 1947)
* Some primary and secondary sources for this execution at Ponar, in addition to those already mentioned, include Reizel Korczak, Lehavot ba-Efer (Tel Aviv 1946); M. Dworzcecki, Yersualayim de-Lita ba-Meri u-va-Sho’ah (Tel Aviv 1951); Jaeger, Y. Rudasehevski (diary published in 1973), L. Epstein (ghetto diary), A. Rindziunski (Moreshet testimony), S. Bronowski (YVA testimony); Rozauskas et al, Documents Accuse; S. Bistrickas, Diary of Jews Murdered in Ponar, July 1941-November 1943 (published 1977 In Vilnius, diary of witness, Lithuanian railway worker); A. Sutzkever, Getto Vilna (Tel Aviv 1947); testimony at Eichmann's trial. Not reading the various languages, I have not read most of these accounts but have come across them in footnotes in Arad's book on Vilna and Sutton's on Lithuania.
* Rozauskas et al, Documents Accuse - can't find this, very important
* http://www.vilnaghetto.com/gallery2/v/vilna/
* references in http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... 8.html?m=1
* Defending History - Virtual exhibition “Vilnius Ghetto”
* http://web.archive.org/web/200510261914 ... rticle=303
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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:29 am

I don't think all those can be verified. Why, you ask, well there's just too much... seems to me like a collection an over-zealous prosecution might try.

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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:35 am

Partial List of Evidence for Lodz and Chelmno

Some key secondary literature

- Krakowski, Chelmno: A Small Village in Europe: The First Nazi Mass Extermination Camp
- Montague, Chelmno and the Holocaust: The History of Hitler's Death Camp
- Epstein, Model Nazi: Arthur Greiser and the Occupation of Western Poland
- Trunk, Łódź Ghetto: A History
- Horwitz, Ghettostadt: Łódź and the Making of a Nazi City
- Witte, "Two Decisions Concerning the 'Final Solution to the Jewish Question': Deportations to Lodz and Mass Murder in Chelmno," HGS 9:3
- a recent article from the Holocaust Controversies blog, written by Nick Terry: "“The Jews buried in a little wood near Kulmhof”: Documenting Cremation at Chełmno"
- other titles such as Alberti mentioned in the above blog article
- on Sonderkommando Lange: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... erman.html

German documents and other evidence

- Greiser-Himmler correspondence NO-244, NO-246, NO-249, NO-251
- Höppner-Eichmann correspondence T/219
- Koppe to Brandt NO-247
- Blome to Greiser NO-250
- gold teeth in possession of Rudolf Kramp (Łódź administration official) at time of his arrest
- personnel files Hans Bothmann (Chelmno commander 1944), Herbert Lange (1942)
- Walter Zirpins in article in German periodical Kriminalistik September 1941
- various German proclamations in Łódź ghetto
- reports and correspondence of Łódź ghetto administration on Jewish property; Koppe 28 August 1942 letter on Himmler's order for handling of Jewish furs in "Kulmhof operation" T/175

Jews to Chelmno

- report of Section IIB4 Gestapo, dated 2 September 1942 (Krakowski)
- Łódź ghetto chronicle
- Rumkowski speeches
- announcement of Hans Biebow 12 September 1942
- diaries of ghetto inmates: Oskar Rosenfeld, Dawid Sierakowiak, Josef Zelkowicz, Jakub Poznanski
- Fritz Ismer, German Hauptscharfuhrer - testimony
- Erhard Michelson, German settler to region - testimony
- Warsaw Hashomer Hatzair underground newspaper Jutrznia - quoted at length in Krakowski
- Gordonia youth movement newspaper Slowo Mlodych - quoted in Krakowski
- Podchlebnik testimony - see below
- Szulman postcards - see below
- Warsaw Bund newspaper - Der Weker
- anonymous girl's diary (Łódź ghetto)
- Reichsbahn bill to Lodz Gestapo for transport costs
- Himmler calendar
- testimonies in addition to below - Irena Li(e)bman (quoted at length in Krakowski), Sara Mancha, Ludwig Wegner, Helena Krol, Yitzhak Weizman, Pinkas Ha-Kehillot Łódź collection, Eli Krizons (German clerk in Łódź), memoir of Rabbi Yehoshua Aronson, Helene Klass (German living in Łeczyca), Olga Günther (German living in Warta), Irmgard Weller (German living in Lututów),
- articles in Polish underground press (Barykada Wolnoeci, Polscy Socjalioeci - quoted in Krakowski)
- diary of German occupation official in Poddębice Franz Bock

Eyewitness accounts (partial list)

- Michal Podchlebnik - escapee from Chelmno (Eichmann trial, Bonn trial 1963, "Shoah" interview)
- Szyman Srebnick - escapee from Chelmno (Eichmann trial, Bonn trial 1963, "Shoah" interview)
- Mordecai Zurawski - escapee, testified in Polish trials of Greiser, Gielow, Eichmann trial, Bonn trial 1963)
- Henryk Mania - Polish laborer in the Wetterkommando, 1964, 1967 testimonies -information on use of gas vans by the Germans
- Henryk Maliczak - Polish laborer in the Wetterkommando, 1967 testimony including testimony on use of conversion of vans for gassing
- Yerachmiel Widawski - escapee, testimony recorded by Naphtali Lau-Lavie in 1942 (quoted at length in Montague)
- Rabbi Jacob Szulman - 1942 letters including information from Szlama Winer
- Szlama Winer - escapee, information written down in winter 1942 (quoted in full in Montague), testimony given to Wassers in Warsaw (Oyneg Shabes, also Itzhak Zukerman memoir), see above
- Mieczyslaw Sakiewicz - local veterinarian, postwar testimony quoted at length in Montague
- Heinz May - forestry official, testimony included information on gas vans - quoted at length in Krakowski
- Josef Piaskowski and Bronislaw Falborski - local mechanics who worked on gas van repairs, quoted at length in Montague (other local mechanics also gave testimonies)
- a number of local residents - testimony on operations of vans in the area including a crash involving a van, en route to the forest burial area, filled with prisoners; also local testimonies on encounters with escapees
- Jan Oliskiewicz - testimony about letter describing Chelmno extermination center sent to Swiss consulate in Łódź by community leader Stanislaw Kaszynski

Perpetrator testimonies (partial list)

- Gustav Laabs - gas van driver in 1942 and 1944 phases
- Karl Heinl - police at forest camp and in castle, testimony on gas vans
- Ernst Burmeister - head of police at Chelmno, 1944
- Hans Biebow - head of Łódź administration
- Erwin Schmidt - in charge of provisions for SK Lange
- Wilhelm Koppe - HSSPF Poznan (quoted in Montague)
- Paul Blobel - advised on corpse disposal in forest camp
- Kurt Möbius - supervised incoming Jews at the mansion/castle, interrogation quoted in Krakowski
- Walter Piller - deputy commander of camp, 1944 phase, description of gassing process and vans, quoted at length in Krakowski
- Bruno Israel - guard during 1944 phase
- Rudolf Höss - commandant Auschwitz, head of Amt DI in WVHA, deputy of the inspector of the concentration camps under Glücks - on his visit to Kulmhof (Chelmno)
- Albert Meyer - head of marketable goods department Łódź, interrogation (including disposition of property of "outsettled" Jews)
- Viktor Brack deposition - NO-426
- Henry Wentritt - German workshop foreman, testimony on gas vans quoted in Montague
- Walter Burmeister - commandants' driver, testimony on gas vans

Gas vans general

- Hans's HC series on gas vans
- ”Contemporary German Documents on Homicidal Gas Vans” at HC
- Einsatzgruppen report of 1 March 1942 on "gas wagons"
- Letter from Walther Rauff to the Criminal Technical Institute at the Reich Criminal Police Office of 26 March 1942 on "special wagons" and "gas bottles with carbon monoxide" for concentration camp Mauthausen.
- Letter from Harald Turner to Karl Wolff of 11 April 1942 on "I shot dead all the Jews I could get my hands on in this area, concentrated all the Jewish women and children in a camp and with the help of the SD got my hands on a "delousing van," that in about 14 days to 4 weeks will have brought about the definitive clearing out of the camp".
- Memo of 27 April 1942 on a "fast unloading device for the special vehicles"
- Letter from Walther Rauff to the Gaubschat company of 30 April 1942 on "extractable grates for the 10 delivered Saurer chassis"
- Letter from the Gaubschat company to Walther Rauff of 14 May 1942 on "10 yet to be delivered special vehicles"
- Letter from August Becker to Walther Rauff of 16 May 1942 on "death van" and "the persons to be executed suffer death from suffocation and not death by dozing off as was planned"
- THHP discussion of memo from Willy Just for Walther Rauff of 5 June 1942 on "ninety-seven thousand have been processed using three vans", "to facilitate the rapid distribution of CO" and "when the back door is closed and it gets dark inside, the load pushes hard against the door"
- Telegram from Emanuel Schäfer to Friedrich Pradel of 9 June 1942 on "the special order" with "a special wagon Saurer"
- Telegram from Heinz Truehe to the RSHA of 15 June 1942 on "special treatment" of Jews with "S-wagons" and "20 exhaust hoses for the existing 3 S-wagons (2 Diamond, 1 Saurer), as those available are already leaky".
- Telegram from the RSHA to the commander of Security Police and Security Service Ostland of 22 June 1942 on "S wagon...transfer of a 5 t Saurer...100 m hose will be sent along"
- Memo of 23 June 1942 on "30 special coachworks for the delivered chassis...changes which cannot be considered there for reasons of secrecy are to be made in an in-house workshop"
- Letter from the Gaubschat company to the RSHA of 18 September 1942 on "Coachwork f. delivered 10 Saurer Chassis"

Chelmno mass graves

- Roberto Muehlenkamp series on mass graves at HC
- Roberto Muehlenkamp series on forensics in SSF HD subforum
- archeological work discussed here and here, including study of artifacts discovered

Third, background on the topic from "At last! The long-awaited Lodz thread" at Rodoh:

- part 1
- part 2
- part 3
- part 4
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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:41 am

Partial List of Evidence for where Warsaw Jews were taken in 1942 and what happened to them at the chief destination

Quick placeholder on Warsaw-Treblinka evidence, 1942, which I plan to clean up and add to . . . this is a dated list of evidence that I've read or about which I've read in secondary accounts, pertaining to a) the clearance of Warsaw ghetto in 1942, b) the transports of Jews from Warsaw to Treblinka at that time, and c) the destination of the Warsaw transports:

a) Deportation

German orders, documents, reports, etc:
Himmler Dienstkalendar for July 1942 (meetings with Globocnik/Krüger, trip to Lublin 18 July)
Himmler 19 July 1942 order to HSSPF Krüger - no Jews to remain in GG by end of 1942 unless in collection camps in five designated cities resulting in 54 temporary"Jewish residential districts" along with camps for reduced Jewish population in GG (Winstone p 159, Longerich, pp 375-376)
Frank's Diensttagebuch for July 1942, quoted in Friedlander v2, p 427
appeal for volunteers to present themselves at Umschlagplatz (Polonsky p 41)
reports of governor of Warsaw district, Fischer (Hilberg v2, p 524, Engelking & Leociak p 712)
deportation order, Engelking & Leociak p 705
Judendat announcement, 5 September 1942, per German orders, Engelking & Leociak p 727 ("the cauldron")
report of Warsaw governer to State Secretary GG for June-July 1942, dated 15 August 1942, cited in Hilberg v2, p 525
German deportation statistics (BZIH 1)
Stroop report
Korherr report
NO-057, NO-064, YVA TR.10/869 on Reinhard headquarters including T-4 personnel (Silberklang)
Höfle personnel file YVA JM/3669 (Silberklang)
Höfle's deportation orders cited in Hilberg v2, p 523, Friedlander vol 2, p 428
organizational issues of deportation, YVA TR.10/813, YVA TR.10/756, cited in Silberklang pp 331-332)
German municipal offices reports on ghetto clearance, utilities, labor (Hilberg, v2, p 526
war diary, Armament Command Warsaw, September 1942 (Hilberg)
various compliance reports made by the Judenrat to the Germans (Hilberg)

Diaries and other contemporary accounts:
S Rembek (Polish nationalist ) in Brenner, The Ethics of Witnessing, pp 149-150
W Hosenfeld - Wehrmacht captain
Najberg
Czerniakow
Lewin
Kaplan
Ringelblum - notebooks
Seidman
Korczak
Mawult (Gombinsksi)
Stok
S Ernest
Sznapman
A Berman
Bryskier
Najberg
Puterman
Staszewska
Remba - in Ringelblum
Katznelson
Wyszynski
I Lichtensztajn
MM Kon
Perle
Opoczynski PH/2-22 and AR II/215
Gorny notes and R II/237
Graber AR II/432
S Gutgeld (?), "The Trans-Settlement" AR II/214
accounts written by shop workers AR II/284 and AR II/289
accounts by 3 rabbis AR II/281
"Fiirst Day of the Deportation 'Action . . .'" AR II/196
"The Days of the 'Trans-Settlement Action'" AR I/1509
"The Destruction of Warsaw" II/198
"The Last Stage of Resettlement Is Death" II/197
half dozen or so further anonymous accounts
see also accounts by Warsaw escapees from Treblinka

Jewish reports and publications during the war:
"The Annihilation of Jewish Warsaw" parts 1 ("Jewish Warsaw Is No More") and 3 ("Some Additional Facts") AR II/192
MM Kon, memorial piece on Rabbi Huberbrand AR II/282
"To the Jewish Masses in the Ghetto," warning notice AR II/333
article in Wiadomosci on liquidation of the Jewish hospital during the deportation, in Blatman, pp 473-476
Bund report published in Oyf der Wkh, 20 September 1942 ("Frydrych mission")

Polish underground
reports of Jewish Affairs Bureau (Wolinski), Bureau of Information and Propaganda, Delegatura, AK High Command, Feiner (to Polish government), and intelligence group
several articles in Biuletyn Informacyjny (some based on information from correspondent Jerzy Grasberg in the ghetto) and in Informacja Biezaca, also articles in AK newspapers Apel, Wiadomosci Polskie, Kronika Tygodniowa, and Niepodleglosc
declaration of civil resistance directorate
PPR newspaper Trybuna Wolnosci
other reports written by Szymanowski quoted in Engelking & Leociak pp 724-725, 728

Postwar eyewitness accounts
Zuckerman (Cukierman)
Mazor
Berg
Edelman
Goldstein
Turkow
Berlinski
Szpilman
B Warm
S Adler
Reich-Ranicki
Tokar-Warsawski (YVA M-2/451

Census and demographic information:
Waldemar Schön, from a Lecture on the Steps Leading to the Establishment of the Warsaw, "The Appearance of the Jewish Quarter," 20 January 1941 (in Arad Holocaust documents)
registration counts - January 1941 ration cards, January 1942 WELZ
order of BuF for 1942 census in GG, 20 January 1942 (Silberklang, p 275)
order from Auerswald to Judenrat for street by street population data in Warsaw ghetto, 29 April 1942 (Hilberg v2, pp 522-523)
Oyneg Shabes population estimate - July 1942 (in Engelking & Leociak).

Other postwar testimonies:
Bor-Komorowski
Michalson interrogations (Silberklang)
Többens interrogation
Platkiewicz

Miscellaneous:
Articles in the Daily Boston Globe, Manchester Guardian, NY Times, etc

Trains to/from Treblinka

German and other documents:
Fahrplananordnungen - cited in Hilberg and in YVA P.26/ 126
Wolff-Ganzenmüller, Krüger-Himmler correspondence
schedules preserved by Zabecki

Wartime eyewitness accounts:
Puterman - anonymous escapee
Buzminsky
see also accounts by Warsaw escapees from Treblinka

Postwar eyewitness accounts:
Zabecki recollections
Stangl interview with Sereny
Lanzmann interview with Suchomel

Destination and murder

Wartime eyewitness ad other contemporary accounts (witnesses from different hometowns):
observations of S Rembek (Polish nationalist ) in Brenner, The Ethics of Witnessing, pp 149-150 - "rumored that in Treblinka, Warsaw Jews have supposedly been finished off")
Krzepicki AR Ii/295 and AR II/299
Nowodworski AR II/296
Rabinowicz - multiple testimonies during September 1942
Wiernik book
Strawczynski
Cymlich
Puterman - anonymous escapee
approximately 10 other Treblinka escapees/survivors
"The Last Stage of Resettlement Is Death" II/197
"Some Information about Treblinka" RII/298
Plotnicka et al, "Last Letter from Bedzin"

Trials:
approximately 20 Jewish Treblinka survivors in Düsseldorf trial
14 SS camp guards interrogated for, giving testimony in Düsseldorf trial
testimony in the Stangl trial
Wiernik trial testimony
Rajchman trial testimony - including above
Zabecki in multiple trials - including above

Postwar eyewitness accounts (from various places):
Glazar
Rajchman memoir
Willenberg
Grinberg
S Kohn
Bomba including Shoah interview
50+ other Treblinka escapees/survivors
Auerbach summary
Grossman summary

Polish underground:
sampling previously cited in this thread

Jewish reports and publications during the war:
"The Annihilation of Jewish Warsaw" parts 2 ("Treblinka") and 3 ("Some Additional Facts"), AR II/192
Bund report published in Oyf der Wkh, 20 September 1942

Physical studies:
Łukaszkiewicz
Sturdy Colls' team

Some HC articles
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... linka.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... _5120.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... of_22.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... linka.html

(Where the citations are not obvious I've jotted a reference down. Engelking & Leociak, Silberklang, and others cite many additional sources - and for postwar trial testimony I've kept the listings general. Especially the Treblinka/destination sources are not meant to be exhaustive but rather to establish where Warsaw Jews were taken in 1942 and what happened to them there, e.g., 1943 "end destination" correspondence, OK Ostrow report, and other more general items not listed. I did not drill down into fate of Jews taken through the Warsaw Dulag to Bobruisk or other camps - nor did I drill down on Jews shot during roundups, although evidence for both is included in first section above.)
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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:46 am

Balmoral95 wrote:I don't think all those can be verified. Why, you ask, well there's just too much... seems to me like a collection an over-zealous prosecution might try.
I know, these are just rather rushed, very incomplete list I pulled together to orient myself a couple years ago ... a scholarly study would be far, far longer ... overzealous profs!
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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:11 am

Where do ya reckon he'll start? :D

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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:27 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:I don't think all those can be verified. Why, you ask, well there's just too much... seems to me like a collection an over-zealous prosecution might try.
I know, these are just rather rushed, very incomplete list I pulled together to orient myself a couple years ago ... a scholarly study would be far, far longer ... overzealous profs!
Yeah, but academics?... could take forever, tbh.

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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by montgomery » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:30 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:I don't think all those can be verified. Why, you ask, well there's just too much... seems to me like a collection an over-zealous prosecution might try.
I know, these are just rather rushed, very incomplete list I pulled together to orient myself a couple years ago ... a scholarly study would be far, far longer ... overzealous profs!
Yeah, but academics?... could take forever, tbh.
You said you pulled them out of your 'whatttt'?

Please stay on topic. This thread is about trolling. What's up there needs to stay up there.

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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:29 pm

I just read an unpublished paper on a single county in German occupied territory in the east. The work could be a chapter in a collection, about that length. Just because we're discussing this issue, I thought to check and see about how many sources the researcher used in the paper - not how many exist, not how many were read but just how many were cited. That number is about 300. In a single, chapter-length paper.

Now, recall that our performing monkey (per Poodle) wanted the one-minute version of the Holocaust, nothing that would take him even an hour or so to "look into." I don't imagine he would want to have to deal with a paper like this one.
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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by montgomery » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:39 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:29 pm
I just read an unpublished paper on a single county in German occupied territory in the east. The work could be a chapter in a collection, about that length. Just because we're discussing this issue, I thought to check and see about how many sources the researcher used in the paper - not how many exist, not how many were read but just how many were cited. That number is about 300. In a single, chapter-length paper.

Now, recall that our performing monkey (per Poodle) wanted the one-minute version of the Holocaust, nothing that would take him even an hour or so to "look into." I don't imagine he would want to have to deal with a paper like this one.
Of the 300, how many aren't already blemished by a history of making up tall tales? And how many of them can have their testimonies analyzed closely to ensure there are no flaws in it that discredits them. This is the essence of the problem now facing the holocaust promotion team. Here forth known as the HPT.

Be fully aware that my mission is to cherrypick evidence from all supposed eye witnesses in order to find flaws in their testimonies. And when I do I will declare that eye witness to not be credible and believable. No skeptic should hide that fact! It's directly opposed to your mission!

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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by Nessie » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:29 pm

montgomery wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:39 pm
......
Be fully aware that my mission is to cherrypick evidence from all supposed eye witnesses in order to find flaws in their testimonies. And when I do I will declare that eye witness to not be credible and believable. No skeptic should hide that fact! It's directly opposed to your mission!
First show flaws mean lies. Here is a brief outline of issues with eye witnesses and why flaws do not mean lies;

https://www.apa.org/monitor/apr06/eyewitness.aspx
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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:12 pm

A mission to cherrypick: that's a keeper. Our own personal Stundie!

Back on planet Earth, as to evidence from the USSR about the Holocaust, I read an interesting paper today on a large collection of source material about the executions of Jews and other civilians carried out by the Germans in the occupied East. This collection is from the Main Political Administration of the Red Army held in the Central Archives of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation (TsAMO RF). It includes over 4000 pages of German documents, testimonies of captured Germans and Romanians, reports by Red Army departments, letters and diaries of residents, observer and bystander interviews, testimonies of escaped Soviet POWs, photographs taken by German personnel, etc. These documents had their "confidential" classification removed only in 2010-2011.

Among the collection are letters from
German soldiers and officers [writing] about mass executions of Jews and their personal participation in them. Testimonies of captured German prisoners of war provide similar information. . . . In many cases, names of executioners are mentioned. . . . The largest type of sources preserved in TsAMO includes statements about German atrocities. They were recorded already in the first months after the beginning of the war. They are particularly valuable as they appeared eighteen months before similar statements collected by the Extraordinary State Commission (ChGK). . . . Written in the most complicated of conditions, immediately after or prior to the fighting, these documents are striking in their details. They specify precise sites of execution; make reference to the names of witnesses and eyewitnesses; contained detailed citations from their testimonies.
The collected statements give precise dates of atrocities, name victims and perpetrators, and described hitherto unresearched and unknown facts. These statements do not focus, however, on the fate of the Soviet Jews but rather on "POWs and violence against women" committed by Germans in the East. The collection makes it clear that Soviet military personnel knew about German atrocities as they were being committed, early on, in 1941.

Also, it emerges that, on account of the Germans' behavior at the front and in occupied territory, the Soviets monitored and made efforts to gather evidence about the German crimes against the Soviet people, including the Jews.

The importance of such a collection, especially in the face of repeated denier hand-waving about other evidence from the Soviet Union, seems to me self-evident.

source: Il'ya Al'tman, "The Holocaust in the Occupied USSR and Its Memorialization in Contemporary Russia," in Kay & Sahel, eds, Mass Violence in Nazi-Occupied Europe, pp 221-223
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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:40 pm

montgomery wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:39 pm
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:29 pm
I just read an unpublished paper on a single county in German occupied territory in the east. The work could be a chapter in a collection, about that length. Just because we're discussing this issue, I thought to check and see about how many sources the researcher used in the paper - not how many exist, not how many were read but just how many were cited. That number is about 300. In a single, chapter-length paper.

Now, recall that our performing monkey (per Poodle) wanted the one-minute version of the Holocaust, nothing that would take him even an hour or so to "look into." I don't imagine he would want to have to deal with a paper like this one.
Of the 300, how many aren't already blemished by a history of making up tall tales? And how many of them can have their testimonies analyzed closely to ensure there are no flaws in it that discredits them. This is the essence of the problem now facing the holocaust promotion team. Here forth known as the HPT.

Be fully aware that my mission is to cherrypick evidence from all supposed eye witnesses in order to find flaws in their testimonies. And when I do I will declare that eye witness to not be credible and believable. No skeptic should hide that fact! It's directly opposed to your mission!
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:51 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:12 pm
A mission to cherrypick: that's a keeper. Our own personal Stundie!

Back on planet Earth, as to evidence from the USSR about the Holocaust, I read an interesting paper today on a large collection of source material about the executions of Jews and other civilians carried out by the Germans in the occupied East. This collection is from the Main Political Administration of the Red Army held in the Central Archives of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation (TsAMO RF). It includes over 4000 pages of German documents, testimonies of captured Germans and Romanians, reports by Red Army departments, letters and diaries of residents, observer and bystander interviews, testimonies of escaped Soviet POWs, photographs taken by German personnel, etc. These documents had their "confidential" classification removed only in 2010-2011.

Among the collection are letters from
German soldiers and officers [writing] about mass executions of Jews and their personal participation in them. Testimonies of captured German prisoners of war provide similar information. . . . In many cases, names of executioners are mentioned. . . . The largest type of sources preserved in TsAMO includes statements about German atrocities. They were recorded already in the first months after the beginning of the war. They are particularly valuable as they appeared eighteen months before similar statements collected by the Extraordinary State Commission (ChGK). . . . Written in the most complicated of conditions, immediately after or prior to the fighting, these documents are striking in their details. They specify precise sites of execution; make reference to the names of witnesses and eyewitnesses; contained detailed citations from their testimonies.
The collected statements give precise dates of atrocities, name victims and perpetrators, and described hitherto unresearched and unknown facts. These statements do not focus, however, on the fate of the Soviet Jews but rather on "POWs and violence against women" committed by Germans in the East. The collection makes it clear that Soviet military personnel knew about German atrocities as they were being committed, early on, in 1941.

Also, it emerges that, on account of the Germans' behavior at the front and in occupied territory, the Soviets monitored and made efforts to gather evidence about the German crimes against the Soviet people, including the Jews.

The importance of such a collection, especially in the face of repeated denier hand-waving about other evidence from the Soviet Union, seems to me self-evident.

source: Il'ya Al'tman, "The Holocaust in the Occupied USSR and Its Memorialization in Contemporary Russia," in Kay & Sahel, eds, Mass Violence in Nazi-Occupied Europe, pp 221-223
Someone will be around shortly to pooh-pooh those obvious forgeries, absolute lack of provided evidence for said forgeries by said member notwithstanding.
Last edited by scrmbldggs on Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Discussion on "Trolling" as it Pertains to this Section of the Forum

Post by montgomery » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:52 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:40 pm
montgomery wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:39 pm
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:29 pm
I just read an unpublished paper on a single county in German occupied territory in the east. The work could be a chapter in a collection, about that length. Just because we're discussing this issue, I thought to check and see about how many sources the researcher used in the paper - not how many exist, not how many were read but just how many were cited. That number is about 300. In a single, chapter-length paper.

Now, recall that our performing monkey (per Poodle) wanted the one-minute version of the Holocaust, nothing that would take him even an hour or so to "look into." I don't imagine he would want to have to deal with a paper like this one.
Of the 300, how many aren't already blemished by a history of making up tall tales? And how many of them can have their testimonies analyzed closely to ensure there are no flaws in it that discredits them. This is the essence of the problem now facing the holocaust promotion team. Here forth known as the HPT.

Be fully aware that my mission is to cherrypick evidence from all supposed eye witnesses in order to find flaws in their testimonies. And when I do I will declare that eye witness to not be credible and believable. No skeptic should hide that fact! It's directly opposed to your mission!
I've bolded the most important part of my post. Now I am indeed on a mission and it's full steam ahead. Now I know enough to be able to fight back against your lies and I'm full of confidence that it's time for the fakery to end. In fact, it's starting to disintegrate all over the world as we receive reports of that happening every day. America will be last of course, but it's also happening in conjunction with the rest of the world rejecting America's hegemonic status. And of course, the world isn't blind anymore to the evil of the Israeli apartheid regime. The pitying has ran out of gas/steam/whatever?