Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:28 am

scrmbldggs wrote:I wonder if he/she/it would be willing to look at Nessie's evidence if it wore an alternative dress?
I prolly shouldn't ask this out front here, but.. are you "ilk"?

He didn't answer my question about this so I'm doing my own informal poll.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:37 am

. :gum:
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:14 am

Balmoral95 wrote:I liked this:

"Every bit of evidence must be capable of standing alone."
I liked this even better, I mean it was all wonderful, but this takes the cake: "A more simpler way and at least as reliable way is to judge the evidence by the manners of those who are presenting it." From "more simpler" through Miss Manners again.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Nessie » Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:28 am

montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:This question remains unanswered;

"Do you agree that the documents for Birkenau prove work was done to construct gas chambers at Birkenau for a special action involving Jewish prisoners that the Nazis wanted to keep secure and as hidden as possible?"
That's a conglomeration of several questions wrapped into one. In order to answer I would have to look at each piece of evidence you presented and then look at any contradictory evidence that has been presented to refute it. I'm not prepared to get into trying to do that at this time. Maybe when I have the time to do that but probably not.
I have already presented the documents in question for you to see. If you want to check the originals, I know some are available to view online and others are not.
A more simpler way and at least as reliable way is to judge the evidence by the manners of those who are presenting it.That aspect is not looking good so far, with the exception of JeffK and you. To suggest that you and Jeff are not having a negative influence on my opinions of the holocaust, but to say that it's not quite yet been positive.
It is a list of documents with a link to the secondary source I got them from.
And again Nessie, I'll tell you too with all due respects for you staying on topic without the personal insults and spamming, you're asking me to deny the holocaust and I'm not going to do that.

And now I expect you to be able to accept that answer and continue in a respectable way. You are simply not going to get any holocaust denial from me. You will get from time to time, questions from me that let you and the others know that their theories can't work, can't be true, and are impossible. You may even get some agreement from time to time, in good faith. Something I've long ago quit expecting from most of the others.

The holocaust supporters' evidence hasn't proven to always be reliable. Some think I should just excuse the 'chaff' and accept the 'wheat'. But that's not the way it works in real life.
Documents traced in archives at Auschwitz by people trusted to be reliable and not known for producing fakes should be considered reliable. The documents have been accepted as correct by all sides in the debate.
Every bit of evidence must be capable of standing alone.
In many instances, one piece of evidence does not mean much on its own. It is only when pieced together with the rest of the evidence, checking timelines and what is corroborated and what is not, that the importance or not of a piece of evidence and what it actually means.
Those who present false evidence are tainted for life. Those who associate with those tainted ones will lose their credibility too. Little lampshade lies are of not much consequence, I can agree. Big lies that have involved revisions in the millions are too much to overlook.
People can present false evidence in error. You should not taint them for life. People may lie about one thing, but that does not mean they lie about everything.

All I am asking you to do is read verified documents and if you agree with my summary of what they say or not.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:06 am

Two cents: for these documents, widely accepted, the onus is on the one who implies that they are not reliable to show the supposed unreliability of any of them.

This is the same problem confronting montgomery's assertion in the "Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen" thread, where montgomery weighed on in Monstrous' argument about the inauthenticity of the Ereignismeldungen.

Same there as here: montgomery's general, unsubstantiated assertion of possible "chaff" gets him nowhere. And a diversion that someone at some other time and in some other place, discussing some other topic, may have used a problematic document doesn't speak to the list of documents, based on Hans' work at HC, which Nessie has inquired about.

It should be noted, too, that Hans is very careful and judicious. It is rather odious to read an implication that a list based on his work is somehow tainted.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:37 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:I liked this:

"Every bit of evidence must be capable of standing alone."
I liked this even better, I mean it was all wonderful, but this takes the cake: "A more simpler way and at least as reliable way is to judge the evidence by the manners of those who are presenting it." From "more simpler" through Miss Manners again.
Funny enough that reminded me of the late Heink. He used to say stuff like "more better" quite a bit.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by montgomery » Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:41 pm

Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:This question remains unanswered;

"Do you agree that the documents for Birkenau prove work was done to construct gas chambers at Birkenau for a special action involving Jewish prisoners that the Nazis wanted to keep secure and as hidden as possible?"
That's a conglomeration of several questions wrapped into one. In order to answer I would have to look at each piece of evidence you presented and then look at any contradictory evidence that has been presented to refute it. I'm not prepared to get into trying to do that at this time. Maybe when I have the time to do that but probably not.
I have already presented the documents in question for you to see. If you want to check the originals, I know some are available to view online and others are not.
A more simpler way and at least as reliable way is to judge the evidence by the manners of those who are presenting it.That aspect is not looking good so far, with the exception of JeffK and you. To suggest that you and Jeff are not having a negative influence on my opinions of the holocaust, but to say that it's not quite yet been positive.
It is a list of documents with a link to the secondary source I got them from.
And again Nessie, I'll tell you too with all due respects for you staying on topic without the personal insults and spamming, you're asking me to deny the holocaust and I'm not going to do that.

And now I expect you to be able to accept that answer and continue in a respectable way. You are simply not going to get any holocaust denial from me. You will get from time to time, questions from me that let you and the others know that their theories can't work, can't be true, and are impossible. You may even get some agreement from time to time, in good faith. Something I've long ago quit expecting from most of the others.

The holocaust supporters' evidence hasn't proven to always be reliable. Some think I should just excuse the 'chaff' and accept the 'wheat'. But that's not the way it works in real life.
Documents traced in archives at Auschwitz by people trusted to be reliable and not known for producing fakes should be considered reliable. The documents have been accepted as correct by all sides in the debate.
Every bit of evidence must be capable of standing alone.
In many instances, one piece of evidence does not mean much on its own. It is only when pieced together with the rest of the evidence, checking timelines and what is corroborated and what is not, that the importance or not of a piece of evidence and what it actually means.
Those who present false evidence are tainted for life. Those who associate with those tainted ones will lose their credibility too. Little lampshade lies are of not much consequence, I can agree. Big lies that have involved revisions in the millions are too much to overlook.
People can present false evidence in error. You should not taint them for life. People may lie about one thing, but that does not mean they lie about everything.

All I am asking you to do is read verified documents and if you agree with my summary of what they say or not.
Provide me with one link to read then. Not something that will take more than an hour. It will at least give me a lead for searching out information from both sides.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:03 pm

>> Provide me with one link to read then.

Done in the OP.

>> Not something that will take more than an hour.

Would you like an umbrella with your drink?
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:09 pm

Tsk tsk tsk, StatMech. That link leads to more links, you think the little one can handle it? Methinks baby steps are what's called for. And a sippy cup. :senile:
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:13 pm

"There is no royal road to science, but you can have little umbrellas in your pina coladas." - KM, 1872
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:16 pm

:lol:
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Nessie » Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:09 pm

montgomery wrote:......

Provide me with one link to read then. Not something that will take more than an hour. It will at least give me a lead for searching out information from both sides.
Please see the first post in the thread. It will take less than an hour to read through and if you want more information, use the link to the full list of documents.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by montgomery » Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:14 pm

Thanks Nessie, I will and I'll report back later.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by montgomery » Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:18 pm

Ooops, this link contains a list of dozens of links and references, then a blog. You'll have to give me something more specific. Please just post a link. "the" link you wish me to read. Or do you want me to read the blog??


http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ce-on.html

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Nessie » Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:30 pm

montgomery wrote:Ooops, this link contains a list of dozens of links and references, then a blog. You'll have to give me something more specific. Please just post a link. "the" link you wish me to read. Or do you want me to read the blog??


http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ce-on.html
The link goes to a list of documentary evidence, that is the part I have then summarised in the OP, where I have grouped and highlighted the key documents. At most you just need to look at the list of documents in the list and read the OP. That is it.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:54 pm

montgomery wrote:Ooops, this link contains a list of dozens of links and references, then a blog. You'll have to give me something more specific. Please just post a link. "the" link you wish me to read. Or do you want me to read the blog??


http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ce-on.html
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by montgomery » Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:56 pm

Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:Ooops, this link contains a list of dozens of links and references, then a blog. You'll have to give me something more specific. Please just post a link. "the" link you wish me to read. Or do you want me to read the blog??


http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ce-on.html
The link goes to a list of documentary evidence, that is the part I have then summarised in the OP, where I have grouped and highlighted the key documents. At most you just need to look at the list of documents in the list and read the OP. That is it.
Now the link won't work here. I'll go back to the OP and try it there, assuming it's the same link.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:57 pm

Do, please, report your every fumbling move ...
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:59 pm

Ya think he'll forget sprinkling the breadcrumbs?
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Nessie » Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:16 pm

montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:Ooops, this link contains a list of dozens of links and references, then a blog. You'll have to give me something more specific. Please just post a link. "the" link you wish me to read. Or do you want me to read the blog??


http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ce-on.html
The link goes to a list of documentary evidence, that is the part I have then summarised in the OP, where I have grouped and highlighted the key documents. At most you just need to look at the list of documents in the list and read the OP. That is it.
Now the link won't work here. I'll go back to the OP and try it there, assuming it's the same link.
That link does not work for me, the OP one does.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by montgomery » Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:28 pm

I've been there and done what you have suggested. There's a bunch of links on a hundred different topics and for one to read over them and get anything out of them, one would have to take it all on faith that each issue is dealt with truthfully. My biggest criticism is that to even attempt to rebut what if said would take hours and hours of research which I told you I don't have time to do right now.

If you want to continue to have a discussion with me then you're going to have to choose one issue you want to promote and present it in the sor of format i can deal with. Respectfully!

Rather, I would suggest that you follow along with some of the infrequent discussions I'm able to have with any of the others. Very infrequent alas, because they disrupt this forum with their childish behavior. That, I might suggest, could be something you should be voicing some concern about. If that nonsense can be stopped we would at least have some time for rational discussion.

And fwiw, I'll say again. If anybody thinks they're going to get the holocaust denial they're so desperately craving, they might as well go blow smoke up a dead dog's a--!

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:36 pm

would take hours and hours of research which I told you I don't have time to do right now.
Maybe you would if you didn't spend 5-6 hours a night posting here. :roll:

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:37 pm

montgomery wrote:... the sor of format i can deal with...
Like so?
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:37 pm

montgomery wrote:... to even attempt to rebut what if said ...
Why does rebutting the items on the list even come up - if you don't know what the items are?

If you bothered looking, you would find that the items on the list to which Nessie referred are primary sources . . . which need interpretation, not rebutting.
montgomery wrote:would take hours and hours of research which I told you I don't have time to do right now.
Yet you have time to post about deportment and behavior and this that and the other. Holocaust issues take a back seat to your real interests. Lots of this that and the other. Hours of it.
montgomery wrote:If you want to continue to have a discussion with me then you're going to have to choose one issue you want to promote and present it in the sor of format i can deal with. Respectfully!

Rather, I would suggest that you follow along with some of the infrequent discussions I'm able to have with any of the others. Very infrequent alas, because they disrupt this forum with their childish behavior. That, I might suggest, could be something you should be voicing some concern about. If that nonsense can be stopped we would at least have some time for rational discussion.
See.
montgomery wrote:And fwiw, I'll say again. If anybody thinks they're going to get the holocaust denial they're so desperately craving, they might as well go blow smoke up a dead dog's a--!
And I will say again, the only person here hoping deniers join in is Jeffk.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Nessie » Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:39 pm

montgomery wrote:I've been there and done what you have suggested. There's a bunch of links on a hundred different topics...
I only asked you look at the documents section of evidence pertaining to Auschwitz.
and for one to read over them and get anything out of them, one would have to take it all on faith that each issue is dealt with truthfully.
All sides, denier and non-denier accept the documents as original and the summary of what they say as accurate.
My biggest criticism is that to even attempt to rebut what if said would take hours and hours of research which I told you I don't have time to do right now.

If you want to continue to have a discussion with me then you're going to have to choose one issue you want to promote and present it in the sor of format i can deal with. Respectfully!

Rather, I would suggest that you follow along with some of the infrequent discussions I'm able to have with any of the others. Very infrequent alas, because they disrupt this forum with their childish behavior. That, I might suggest, could be something you should be voicing some concern about. If that nonsense can be stopped we would at least have some time for rational discussion.

And fwiw, I'll say again. If anybody thinks they're going to get the holocaust denial they're so desperately craving, they might as well go blow smoke up a dead dog's a--!
OK, one document at a time, starting here;

Daily report on the construction of Kremas IV and V on 2nd March 1943;

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... 0446.shtml

"On Tuesday 2nd March 1943, the Riedel foreman who, two days earlier had fitted the gas-tight windows in rooms whose function was unspecified, was again working there. and sensibly deduced that he was in a “gas chamber”. His daily report mentions under point 5 (in the room with the windows): “Fußboden Aufschüttung auffülen, stampfen und Fußboden betonieren im Gasskammer / ground covered with hard fill, tamped down and floor concreted in gas chamber”

Do you accept that means a gas chamber was being constructed?
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by montgomery » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:01 pm

Thank you. That fills the bill for me to be able to comment.

I accept that as a second hand report from the Riedel foreman who was claimed to have fitted gas'tight windows in rooms whose function was unspecified. Then I would be skeptical of the suggestion that it was 'sensibly deduced' that the rooms were intended to be used as gas chambers.

For instance, any room in a building that stood next to a gas chambers of any intent, would likely need gas-tight windows to protect it's inhabitants from lethal gasses. Either in it's own windows or in the windows of the assumed gas chamber. Saying that if you are going to gas some sort of living thing in your house, either gastight windows in your house or my house will protect me.

That I've said so far is from my limited knowledge on lethal gas. of which I understand can't be dealt with in the shoddy manner in which some of the stories relate. But it does lead to needing to now find a reference to that particular story as it has been related here by your reference. This is perhaps where JeffK can provide the contradicting evidence?

Have I dealt with your submission in a satisfactory way so far?

I will say that your choice of the specific topic is a good one. We should stick with it now and examine it to find if it can stand as evidence by itself.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:15 pm

Speaking of which, does anyone else miss ralphgordon?
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Nessie » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:24 pm

montgomery wrote:Thank you. That fills the bill for me to be able to comment.

I accept that as a second hand report from the Riedel foreman
I would describe it as primary, since he is reporting what he had done.
who was claimed to have fitted gas'tight windows
I would say it is highly unlikely he lied in his work report and it was not just fitting gas tight windows.
in rooms whose function was unspecified.
The important part is he described the work as "ground covered with hard fill, tamped down and floor concreted in gas chamber". There should be no doubting the work was for a gas chamber.
Then I would be skeptical of the suggestion that it was 'sensibly deduced' that the rooms were intended to be used as gas chambers.
For instance, any room in a building that stood next to a gas chambers of any intent, would likely need gas-tight windows to protect it's inhabitants from lethal gasses. Either in it's own windows or in the windows of the assumed gas chamber. Saying that if you are going to gas some sort of living thing in your house, either gastight windows in your house or my house will protect me.
All we can deduce is that there was the construction of a gas chamber. There is nothing in that evidence to say what was to be gassed.
That I've said so far is from my limited knowledge on lethal gas. of which I understand can't be dealt with in the shoddy manner in which some of the stories relate. But it does lead to needing to now find a reference to that particular story as it has been related here by your reference. This is perhaps where JeffK can provide the contradicting evidence?
There is no contradicting evidence. Deniers accept the documents show gas chambers were built inside the kremas. They dispute the gas chambers were for homicidal gassing. They variously claim they were actually delousing chambers, bomb shelters, mortuaries or showers. Quite why they think that, since I am sure the Riedel foreman would have then said he had laid a concrete floor in the bomb shelter, delousing chamber, bomb shelter or mortuary instead.
Have I dealt with your submission in a satisfactory way so far?

I will say that your choice of the specific topic is a good one. We should stick with it now and examine it to find if it can stand as evidence by itself.
OK, next I would suggest two clearly related documents;

"Letter from Karl Bischoff to Topf of 6 March 1943 on “preheating cellar 1” and “undressing room” in crematorium 2 and 3 [Pressac, Technique, p. 433]"

original here;

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... 0433.shtml

"Working time sheet from Heinrich Messing of 14 March 1943 on “undressing cellar 2” in crematorium 2 [Pressac, Technique, p. 434]"

original here;

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... 0434.shtml

Those two references to undressing rooms are also from March 1943, just after the concrete was laid in the gas chamber. So, we have evidence that undressing rooms were being constructed at the same time as a gas chamber. There is a connection between people undressing and gassing.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:27 pm

Nessie wrote:OK, one document at a time, starting here;

Daily report on the construction of Kremas IV and V on 2nd March 1943;

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... 0446.shtml
Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:Thank you. That fills the bill for me to be able to comment...

I accept that as a second hand report from the Riedel foreman who was claimed to have fitted gas'tight windows in rooms whose function was unspecified.
The important part is he described the work as "ground covered with hard fill, tamped down and floor concreted in gas chamber". There should be no doubting the work was for a gas chamber.
Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:Then I would be skeptical of the suggestion that it was 'sensibly deduced' that the rooms were intended to be used as gas chambers.

For instance, any room in a building that stood next to a gas chambers of any intent, would likely need gas-tight windows to protect it's inhabitants from lethal gasses. Either in it's own windows or in the windows of the assumed gas chamber. Saying that if you are going to gas some sort of living thing in your house, either gastight windows in your house or my house will protect me...
All we can deduce is that there was the construction of a gas chamber. There is nothing in that evidence to say what was to be gassed.
Nessie, those windows at Kremas IV and V were not between rooms, but to the outside. And grated on the inside, apparently for deloused clothing not to escape into the wilderness.


(I condensed the quoted parts a little for clarity.)
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:37 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Speaking of which, does anyone else miss ralphgordon?
Why? What did you do to him? :-P
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Denying-History » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:03 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Nessie wrote:OK, one document at a time, starting here;

Daily report on the construction of Kremas IV and V on 2nd March 1943;

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... 0446.shtml
Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:Thank you. That fills the bill for me to be able to comment...

I accept that as a second hand report from the Riedel foreman who was claimed to have fitted gas'tight windows in rooms whose function was unspecified.
The important part is he described the work as "ground covered with hard fill, tamped down and floor concreted in gas chamber". There should be no doubting the work was for a gas chamber.
Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:Then I would be skeptical of the suggestion that it was 'sensibly deduced' that the rooms were intended to be used as gas chambers.

For instance, any room in a building that stood next to a gas chambers of any intent, would likely need gas-tight windows to protect it's inhabitants from lethal gasses. Either in it's own windows or in the windows of the assumed gas chamber. Saying that if you are going to gas some sort of living thing in your house, either gastight windows in your house or my house will protect me...
All we can deduce is that there was the construction of a gas chamber. There is nothing in that evidence to say what was to be gassed.
Nessie, those windows at Kremas IV and V were not between rooms, but to the outside. And grated on the inside, apparently for deloused clothing not to escape into the wilderness.


(I condensed the quoted parts a little for clarity.)
I believe I remember Pelts Drawings showing an internal window.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by montgomery » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:23 pm

Nessie, I won't be going on to another topic until all the questions on this one are cleared up. Not only do I have further comments to make from your last reply to me, there seems to be some questions that have arose by others who have contradictory evidence. Or at least, evidence that differs. I'll get to it in time.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:38 pm

Denying-History wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Nessie wrote:OK, one document at a time, starting here;

Daily report on the construction of Kremas IV and V on 2nd March 1943;

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... 0446.shtml
Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:Thank you. That fills the bill for me to be able to comment...

I accept that as a second hand report from the Riedel foreman who was claimed to have fitted gas'tight windows in rooms whose function was unspecified.
The important part is he described the work as "ground covered with hard fill, tamped down and floor concreted in gas chamber". There should be no doubting the work was for a gas chamber.
Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:Then I would be skeptical of the suggestion that it was 'sensibly deduced' that the rooms were intended to be used as gas chambers.

For instance, any room in a building that stood next to a gas chambers of any intent, would likely need gas-tight windows to protect it's inhabitants from lethal gasses. Either in it's own windows or in the windows of the assumed gas chamber. Saying that if you are going to gas some sort of living thing in your house, either gastight windows in your house or my house will protect me...
All we can deduce is that there was the construction of a gas chamber. There is nothing in that evidence to say what was to be gassed.
Nessie, those windows at Kremas IV and V were not between rooms, but to the outside. And grated on the inside, apparently for deloused clothing not to escape into the wilderness.


(I condensed the quoted parts a little for clarity.)
I believe I remember Pelts Drawings showing an internal window.
I'd been trying to remember something like that spooking around my brain - was it from the changes/remodel/resizing?
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:43 pm

montgomery wrote:Nessie, I won't be going on to another topic until all the questions on this one are cleared up. Not only do I have further comments to make from your last reply to me, there seems to be some questions that have arose by others who have contradictory evidence. Or at least, evidence that differs. I'll get to it in time.
Oh, don't let the interactions of grown-ups bother you, little one. You just go ahead, doing whatever it is you're doing and/or playing with. :senile:
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by montgomery » Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:09 pm

Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:Thank you. That fills the bill for me to be able to comment.

I accept that as a second hand report from the Riedel foreman
I would describe it as primary, since he is reporting what he had done.
In actual fact it's third hand. Somebody is telling what the foreman did and you're relaying it here. So technically, but I don't think I want to dwell on that any further.
who was claimed to have fitted gas'tight windows
I would say it is highly unlikely he lied in his work report and it was not just fitting gas tight windows.
I would say there's lots of room for errors and lies in information that is third hand at least.
in rooms whose function was unspecified.
The important part is he described the work as "ground covered with hard fill, tamped down and floor concreted in gas chamber". There should be no doubting the work was for a gas chamber.
It's my opinion still, and now perhaps more, that there is lots of room for doubt gathering around this story. It's being voiced by others on this board.
Then I would be skeptical of the suggestion that it was 'sensibly deduced' that the rooms were intended to be used as gas chambers.
For instance, any room in a building that stood next to a gas chambers of any intent, would likely need gas-tight windows to protect it's inhabitants from lethal gasses. Either in it's own windows or in the windows of the assumed gas chamber. Saying that if you are going to gas some sort of living thing in your house, either gastight windows in your house or my house will protect me.
All we can deduce is that there was the construction of a gas chamber. There is nothing in that evidence to say what was to be gassed.
Good point.
That I've said so far is from my limited knowledge on lethal gas. of which I understand can't be dealt with in the shoddy manner in which some of the stories relate. But it does lead to needing to now find a reference to that particular story as it has been related here by your reference. This is perhaps where JeffK can provide the contradicting evidence?
There is no contradicting evidence. Deniers accept the documents show gas chambers were built inside the kremas. They dispute the gas chambers were for homicidal gassing. They variously claim they were actually delousing chambers, bomb shelters, mortuaries or showers. Quite why they think that, since I am sure the Riedel foreman would have then said he had laid a concrete floor in the bomb shelter, delousing chamber, bomb shelter or mortuary instead.
The Reidel foreman's evidence is questionable. And as you state, the 'deniers' (whoever they are) appear to say that the gas chambers were meant for delousing. If indeed they are actually saying that? Maybe they were liars and exaggerators of the other side?
Have I dealt with your submission in a satisfactory way so far?

I will say that your choice of the specific topic is a good one. We should stick with it now and examine it to find if it can stand as evidence by itself.
OK, next I would suggest two clearly related documents;
No, not yet. We could almost write a book on the outstanding questions that haven't been answered. And you do appreciate that I'm not an expert on the topic so my research is going to take longer.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:22 pm

montgomery wrote:...there is lots of room for doubt gathering around this story. It's being voiced by others on this board...
Are you well, dear? That almost sounds like one of those schizophrenic episodes some of your posts already hinted at.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Denying-History » Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:24 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Nessie wrote:OK, one document at a time, starting here;

Daily report on the construction of Kremas IV and V on 2nd March 1943;

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... 0446.shtml
Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:Thank you. That fills the bill for me to be able to comment...

I accept that as a second hand report from the Riedel foreman who was claimed to have fitted gas'tight windows in rooms whose function was unspecified.
The important part is he described the work as "ground covered with hard fill, tamped down and floor concreted in gas chamber". There should be no doubting the work was for a gas chamber.
Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:Then I would be skeptical of the suggestion that it was 'sensibly deduced' that the rooms were intended to be used as gas chambers.

For instance, any room in a building that stood next to a gas chambers of any intent, would likely need gas-tight windows to protect it's inhabitants from lethal gasses. Either in it's own windows or in the windows of the assumed gas chamber. Saying that if you are going to gas some sort of living thing in your house, either gastight windows in your house or my house will protect me...
All we can deduce is that there was the construction of a gas chamber. There is nothing in that evidence to say what was to be gassed.
Nessie, those windows at Kremas IV and V were not between rooms, but to the outside. And grated on the inside, apparently for deloused clothing not to escape into the wilderness.


(I condensed the quoted parts a little for clarity.)
I believe I remember Pelts Drawings showing an internal window.
I'd been trying to remember something like that spooking around my brain - was it from the changes/remodel/resizing?
No, not some what I remember. It shows up on all of the blueprints from memory, it’s just for use in the smaller gas chamber.

Only remodel from memory that comes to mind is the subdivision of the smaller gas chamber of Crematorium 5 during the Hungarian operation. Pelts drawings do not show it.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:12 am

Got it:

First design: based on drawing 2036 of11th January 1943, the orders of 18th January and 19th March 1943 for FOUR gas-tight doors and that of 13th February 1943 for 12 gas-tight windows for BOTH Krematorien IV and V (SIX per building).

...and 6 windows (3 per room), one being INSIDE the corridor giving access to the chambers, unlike the five others that are on the outside)...
https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... 0447.shtml
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:20 am

Quote from your link eggs;
4 gasdichte Türe / 4 gas-tight doors
[Order No 226/80/17 of 18th January 1943 for Krematorium IV - NOT FOUND]

That there was an order of 18th January for 4 gas-tight doors for Krematorium IV is established by two documents that mention it: Order 109 [Photo 32] of 19th February of The "Schlosserei WL" file and the letter of 31st March 1943 [Photos 33 and 34] of Annex 3 to Volume 11 of the Hoesse Trial. The original has not yet been found.

This “phanthom” document is not “conclusive” proof of the existence of homicidal gas chambers in Krematorium IV. but it helps us to understand and establish how they were planned, built and used.
bolding mine.

Dohhhhhhhhhhhhh!

I think there's lots of room to remain a skeptic.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:31 am

^
Image
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