Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:28 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote: new slogan for the forum: "We entertain trolls and imbeciles."
Good: self reflection is a noble pursuit.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:36 am

and, btw, ahem Jeffk, the trolls and imbeciles seem out in force . . . I am old enough to remember when litter wasn't us, and we discussed history in the forum . . . "Schone Zeiten" . . .
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:47 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:and, btw, ahem Jeffk, the trolls and imbeciles seem out in force . . . I am old enough to remember when litter wasn't us, and we discussed history in the forum . . . "Schone Zeiten" . . .
Brot kann schimmeln, was kannst du?

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:06 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:and, btw, ahem Jeffk, the trolls and imbeciles seem out in force . . . I am old enough to remember when litter wasn't us, and we discussed history in the forum . . . "Schone Zeiten" . . .
All I know is I have nothing to do with montgomery. Where he came from I have no idea. I don’t know what pulled VFX back here.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:07 am

They followed Nessie...
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Balmoral95 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:10 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:and, btw, ahem Jeffk, the trolls and imbeciles seem out in force . . . I am old enough to remember when litter wasn't us, and we discussed history in the forum . . . "Schone Zeiten" . . .
Along those lines I will have an announcement Monday or Tuesday.... stay tuned.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:11 am

scrmbldggs wrote:They followed Nessie...
Oh yes.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:16 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:"Schone Zeiten" . . .
it is Schöne Zeiten...duh
Hey we can still have good times.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Nessie » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:51 am

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:How come the Australian morgue makes no mention of gas?

Please note. I was in the police. I have been to lots of mortuaries. I have seen lots of dead bodies. I have checked many into mortuaries. In an number of places I worked we had the key and out of hours, we would be responsible for opening up the mortuary, booking in the body, preparing it and putting it into storage. Gas was never an issue. There were no gas-tight doors, windows or chambers in any mortuary I ever went to. There were no showers for the staff. One mortuary was just part of an old RAF hanger with a slab.
You were a bobby nothing more, not a mortuary technician by training I would assume. The issue is not gas, it is isolation of pathogenic microbes carried in the air which you may realize is a gas. This is important especially with autopsies to prevent the spread of highly infectious diseases. I think in crowded camps where up to 500 a day were dying from typhus and other diseases this would be essential. An old RAF hangar using a slab does not seem the most professional way to go. I think the Germans were a little more sophisticated than you poms and Scots.
If there are not proper gas seals the Australian system recommends extremely fine filtration systems which can filter out the bugs.
There is a big difference between storing bodies and post mortems. In many parts of rural Scotland, bodies are just stored. The island where the mortuary is part of a hanger is just for short term storing. Bodies that will be buried on the island are embalmed very quickly. Others for whatever reason (say they are to go for a post mortem) are flown out the next day. At hospital or city morgues where post mortems took place, the PM rooms were like operating theatres and kept very clean and closed off to the rest of the building, more to do with privacy and smell. There is no evidence I know of, of post mortems being performed in the Leichenkellers.

The point is that just because an Australian mortuary has filtration systems etc does not mean they all do, nor that the gas-tight doors etc Birkenau were for that reason. It is also odd that the words gassing cellar, gas cellar and gas chamber are being used for what you claim to be a post mortem room. I presume the Germans have a word(s) for post mortem room.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:35 am

Nessie wrote:
VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:How come the Australian morgue makes no mention of gas?

Please note. I was in the police. I have been to lots of mortuaries. I have seen lots of dead bodies. I have checked many into mortuaries. In an number of places I worked we had the key and out of hours, we would be responsible for opening up the mortuary, booking in the body, preparing it and putting it into storage. Gas was never an issue. There were no gas-tight doors, windows or chambers in any mortuary I ever went to. There were no showers for the staff. One mortuary was just part of an old RAF hanger with a slab.
You were a bobby nothing more, not a mortuary technician by training I would assume. The issue is not gas, it is isolation of pathogenic microbes carried in the air which you may realize is a gas. This is important especially with autopsies to prevent the spread of highly infectious diseases. I think in crowded camps where up to 500 a day were dying from typhus and other diseases this would be essential. An old RAF hangar using a slab does not seem the most professional way to go. I think the Germans were a little more sophisticated than you poms and Scots.
If there are not proper gas seals the Australian system recommends extremely fine filtration systems which can filter out the bugs.
There is a big difference between storing bodies and post mortems. In many parts of rural Scotland, bodies are just stored. The island where the mortuary is part of a hanger is just for short term storing. Bodies that will be buried on the island are embalmed very quickly. Others for whatever reason (say they are to go for a post mortem) are flown out the next day. At hospital or city morgues where post mortems took place, the PM rooms were like operating theatres and kept very clean and closed off to the rest of the building, more to do with privacy and smell. There is no evidence I know of, of post mortems being performed in the Leichenkellers.

The point is that just because an Australian mortuary has filtration systems etc does not mean they all do, nor that the gas-tight doors etc Birkenau were for that reason. It is also odd that the words gassing cellar, gas cellar and gas chamber are being used for what you claim to be a post mortem room. I presume the Germans have a word(s) for post mortem room.
Interesting what you said about the storage on that island. I have a great vision of it in my mind. It was not claimed that L1 and L2 were used as such but that was the apparent function of L3 which is in the middle of the complex.
This was done due to the high number of typhus victims and other diseases. The exact cause of death needed to be determined for future sanitary reasons" prevention and control. It would be likely each post mortem room would be treated in a similar fashion: complete isolation. The diagram of L3 is so bad it is hard to read the blue print but its size suggest what I am saying including its central location and proximity to the elevators and Krema.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Nessie » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:46 am

Using this plan, please tell me how you think the krema functioned with reference to each room's purpose;

Image

Original here;

https://codoh.com/library/document/1024/
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:33 am

Nessie wrote:Using this plan, please tell me how you think the krema functioned with reference to each room's purpose;

Image

Original here;

https://codoh.com/library/document/1024/
Yep, though this diagram is a little wrong. I have enclosed the proper blue print below. At 6 in your diagram that should be linked into Leichenkeller 2, you diagram shows it going to the outside. I can't all of that was underground. 2 was the initial room for sorting bodies which arrived down the steps. Due to cold weather a ramp would have been too slippery.
Normal bodies stayed there for dissection in the autopsy room or going to the ovens.. 1 was for typhus disease victims. 3 was the autopsy rooms along with offices and shower facilities. 5 was the lift that could only carry 250kg at any time to the furnaces located in 4. 11 was the office block and changing rooms for the workers along with shower facilities, toilets. 7 Were steps going down to morgue 2.
There was no opening at 6 as it was undergound and not shown on the original blue print I have. 10 was the chimney area. 8 is steps going down to L3 from the outside.
This image is more accurate.
Image
You can see from my diagram that the entry from L2 towards the lift or L1 is a single door to the lift and then another single door to L1: only one cadavar was moved at a time. In my diagram there is also a door and windows from L2 to L3. From L3 to the elevator there is also another door and windows. This is so the dissected autopsied corpses could be taken straight the ovens for disposal.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:10 am

On tenterhooks about balmoral’s upcoming announcement!
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Nessie » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:53 pm

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:Using this plan, please tell me how you think the krema functioned with reference to each room's purpose;

Image

Original here;

https://codoh.com/library/document/1024/
Yep, though this diagram is a little wrong. I have enclosed the proper blue print below. At 6 in your diagram that should be linked into Leichenkeller 2, you diagram shows it going to the outside.
It is not my diagram. I included a link to the source. In the source it describes 6 as "Corpse chute."
I can't all of that was underground. 2 was the initial room for sorting bodies which arrived down the steps. Due to cold weather a ramp would have been too slippery.
Please provide evidence bodies were sorted in 2. Witnesses will remember taking the bodies there. What sorting took place? Why have a corpse chute?
Normal bodies stayed there for dissection in the autopsy room or going to the ovens.. 1 was for typhus disease victims.
Again, please provide evidence to back that claim up.
3 was the autopsy rooms along with offices and shower facilities.
That 3 is one room. Was it for autopsies, an office or a shower? Evidence what ever you claim.
5 was the lift that could only carry 250kg at any time to the furnaces located in 4.
I have seen evidence which backs that claim up, so you are OK with that one.
11 was the office block and changing rooms for the workers along with shower facilities, toilets.
Again, evidence please. I would be interested to see which witness(es) you have who took a shower.
7 Were steps going down to morgue 2.
OK.
There was no opening at 6 as it was undergound and not shown on the original blue print I have.
It is a corpse chute apparently. According to the source.
10 was the chimney area. 8 is steps going down to L3 from the outside.
OK.
This image is more accurate.
Image
You can see from my diagram that the entry from L2 towards the lift or L1 is a single door to the lift and then another single door to L1: only one cadavar was moved at a time. In my diagram there is also a door and windows from L2 to L3. From L3 to the elevator there is also another door and windows. This is so the dissected autopsied corpses could be taken straight the ovens for disposal.
I look forward to you evidencing all of that. Please identify which room is the undressing room, since we know from the below the krema had one;

"Letter from Eduard Wirths of 21 January 1943 on “undressing room” in crematorium 2 [Mattogno ATCOS, vol. 1, p. 72]"
"Letter from Karl Bischoff to Topf of 6 March 1943 on “preheating cellar 1” and “undressing room” in crematorium 2 and 3 [Pressac, Technique, p. 433]"
"Working time sheet from Heinrich Messing of 14 March 1943 on “undressing cellar 2” in crematorium 2 [Pressac, Technique, p. 434]"
"Work time sheet from Heinrich Messing of 13 April 1943 on “undressing cellar” in crematorium 3 [Pressac, Technique, p. 439]"

Then show where the following was located;

"Transfer inventory of 31 March 1943 on “4 wire mesh slide in devices” and “wooden covers” in the crematorium 2 basement [Pressac, Technique, p. 430]"

Then show which room was the gassing cellar;

"Letter from Karl Bischoff of 29 January 1943 on “gassing cellar” in crematorium 2 [Pressac, Technique, p. 432]"
"Memo from Fritz Sander of 17 February 1943 on “the gas cellar” in crematorium 2 [Schüle, Industrie und Holocaust, p. 456, back-up 1st and 2nd page]"

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:25 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:and, btw, ahem Jeffk, the trolls and imbeciles seem out in force . . . I am old enough to remember when litter wasn't us, and we discussed history in the forum . . . "Schone Zeiten" . . .
And everybody should take note of who it is once again that can't reform himself and stop the spamming and personal attacks.

Otherwise, a good conversation and good evidence being presented. This is how peer pressure can work to make this forum worth reading and taking part in!

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:45 pm

deluded
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: deceived by false beliefs
: having or characterized by delusional ideas
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:16 pm

Nessie wrote:Using this plan, please tell me how you think the krema functioned
I told what I thought. This is how morgues really work.
Again, please provide evidence to back that claim up.
I look forward to you evidencing all of that. Please identify which room is the undressing room, since we know from the below the krema had one
I have not made any claims; I gave what I thought as requested. There was no undressing room except for staff near the offices which probably also served as a locker room, shower, toilets etc. End of story.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:08 am

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:Using this plan, please tell me how you think the krema functioned
I told what I thought. This is how morgues really work.
Please answer my follow up questions;

Please provide evidence bodies were sorted in 2. Witnesses will remember taking the bodies there. What sorting took place? Why have a corpse chute?

Please provide evidence to back this claim up; normal bodies stayed there for dissection in the autopsy room or going to the ovens.. 1 was for typhus disease victims.

That 3 is one room. Was it for autopsies, an office or a shower? Evidence what ever you claim.

Again, evidence please for 11 was the office block and changing rooms for the workers along with shower facilities, toilets. I would be interested to see which witness(es) you have who took a shower.
Again, please provide evidence to back that claim up.
I look forward to you evidencing all of that. Please identify which room is the undressing room, since we know from the below the krema had one
I have not made any claims; I gave what I thought as requested. There was no undressing room except for staff near the offices which probably also served as a locker room, shower, toilets etc. End of story.[/quote]

Please clarify, do you accept there was an undressing room, yes or no?

Then show where the following was located;

"Transfer inventory of 31 March 1943 on “4 wire mesh slide in devices” and “wooden covers” in the crematorium 2 basement [Pressac, Technique, p. 430]"

Then show which room was the gassing cellar;

"Letter from Karl Bischoff of 29 January 1943 on “gassing cellar” in crematorium 2 [Pressac, Technique, p. 432]"
"Memo from Fritz Sander of 17 February 1943 on “the gas cellar” in crematorium 2 [Schüle, Industrie und Holocaust, p. 456, back-up 1st and 2nd page]"

Thankyou.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:21 am

Please use your knowledge of morgues to answer those yourself. I told you what those were. Believe what you want.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:11 am

VFX wrote:Please use your knowledge of morgues to answer those yourself. I told you what those were. Believe what you want.
Dodge. The evidence tells us that undressing rooms and gas chambers were constructed inside the kremas. There were gas detection devices and wire mesh slide in devices under wooden covers. This was for a secretive special action/treatment involving living people being sent to the kremas.

Only those intent on trying to re-write history because they do not want to believe there was mass gassing at Birkenau, will not accept that is evidence of mass gassings.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:29 am

No Nessie everyone has been over this so many times. We simply do not believe it: there is no evidence sufficient for your claim.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:58 am

VFX wrote:No Nessie everyone has been over this so many times. We simply do not believe it: there is no evidence sufficient for your claim.
To any reasonable person, the evidence from documents, witnesses, forensics etc is more than sufficient.

You are not a reasonable person. You are clearly trying to re-write history. You happily believe in things you cannot evidence at all.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:56 pm

Nessie wrote:
VFX wrote:No Nessie everyone has been over this so many times. We simply do not believe it: there is no evidence sufficient for your claim.
To any reasonable person, the evidence from documents, witnesses, forensics etc is more than sufficient.

You are not a reasonable person. You are clearly trying to re-write history. You happily believe in things you cannot evidence at all.
Don't be tempted to go there Nessie. You're better than that.

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Re: Any evidence at all...

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:01 pm

>> "We simply do not believe it"

So? :pardon:
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Re: Any evidence at all...

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:08 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:>> "We simply do not believe it"

So? :pardon:
Which is about all these two will ever come up with as to any of this.

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Re: Any evidence at all...

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:17 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:>> "We simply do not believe it"

So? :pardon:
Which is about all these two will ever come up with as to any of this.
And that, my friends, is their strongest argument!
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:29 pm

montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:
VFX wrote:No Nessie everyone has been over this so many times. We simply do not believe it: there is no evidence sufficient for your claim.
To any reasonable person, the evidence from documents, witnesses, forensics etc is more than sufficient.

You are not a reasonable person. You are clearly trying to re-write history. You happily believe in things you cannot evidence at all.
Don't be tempted to go there Nessie. You're better than that.
Name another instance of murder where;

- dozens of witnesses agree there was a murder and how it was done (they differ in some details and make mistakes, but hey, so do all witnesses in large cases).
- the accused ADMIT to the crime and have no alibi
- the accused has motive, opportunity, ability and behaved in a guilty manner after the crime by trying to cover it up
- there is documentary and physical evidence the crime was committed
- there are human remains where the witnesses say the murders took place

and the accused would be found not guilty?!
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:33 pm

Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:
VFX wrote:No Nessie everyone has been over this so many times. We simply do not believe it: there is no evidence sufficient for your claim.
To any reasonable person, the evidence from documents, witnesses, forensics etc is more than sufficient.

You are not a reasonable person. You are clearly trying to re-write history. You happily believe in things you cannot evidence at all.
Don't be tempted to go there Nessie. You're better than that.
Name another instance of murder where;

- dozens of witnesses agree there was a murder and how it was done (they differ in some details and make mistakes, but hey, so do all witnesses in large cases).
- the accused ADMIT to the crime and have no alibi
- the accused has motive, opportunity, ability and behaved in a guilty manner after the crime by trying to cover it up
- there is documentary and physical evidence the crime was committed
- there are human remains where the witnesses say the murders took place

and the accused would be found not guilty?!
My point was, personal attacks are not acceptable.

Pertaining to that which I've bolded above: The degree of discrepancies being the point to keep in mind. Let's not belabor the obvious.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:40 pm

The discrepancies are exaggerated by deniers who regularly compare hearsay to actual eyewitness testimony. To get back on topic, the documents that show construction work at the kremas comes from eyewitnesses, people who were there. We know the likes of Bischoff and Sander were at Birkenau and went inside the kremas. So, maybe you can show me where the following room was in krema II;

"Letter from Karl Bischoff of 29 January 1943 on “gassing cellar” in crematorium 2 [Pressac, Technique, p. 432]"
"Memo from Fritz Sander of 17 February 1943 on “the gas cellar” in crematorium 2 [Schüle, Industrie und Holocaust, p. 456, back-up 1st and 2nd page]"

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:09 pm

Nessie wrote:The discrepancies are exaggerated by deniers who regularly compare hearsay to actual eyewitness testimony. To get back on topic, the documents that show construction work at the kremas comes from eyewitnesses, people who were there. We know the likes of Bischoff and Sander were at Birkenau and went inside the kremas. So, maybe you can show me where the following room was in krema II;

"Letter from Karl Bischoff of 29 January 1943 on “gassing cellar” in crematorium 2 [Pressac, Technique, p. 432]"
"Memo from Fritz Sander of 17 February 1943 on “the gas cellar” in crematorium 2 [Schüle, Industrie und Holocaust, p. 456, back-up 1st and 2nd page]"

Image
Above all, the evidence that Leuchter presented remains a real problem for the entire gas chambers story. It's being unfairly discounted and put down to lack of Leuchter having the credentials to even do the sampling. And other non-reasons being voiced by the holocaust promoters on this board.

Unfortunately Nessie, that results in a lot of the people doing nothing but baying at the moon. That needs to change, and what also needs to change is your support of S.M. when he's into his insulting and spamming mode. Maybe tomorrow when everybody has had a chance to cool off a bit. I don't tolerate the kind of crap these people are attempting to peddle. Fair is fair!

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:14 pm

Montgomery, please stop spending most of your time bothering with those you claim you have no time for an answer my question, where is the gassing cellar Bischoff and Sandler are referring to in krema II?
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Denying-History » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:20 pm

Nessie wrote:Montgomery, please stop spending most of your time bothering with those you claim you have no time for an answer my question, where is the gassing cellar Bischoff and Sandler are referring to in krema II?
Could just stop giving them the time of day.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:21 pm

And then I wouldn't be seeing quoted stuff! :)
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:25 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Nessie wrote:Montgomery, please stop spending most of your time bothering with those you claim you have no time for an answer my question, where is the gassing cellar Bischoff and Sandler are referring to in krema II?
Could just stop giving them the time of day.
Dat. But they have to talk here. They're not allowed to at RO?DOH!
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:28 pm

Let them talk. Don't listen.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:29 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Nessie wrote:Montgomery, please stop spending most of your time bothering with those you claim you have no time for an answer my question, where is the gassing cellar Bischoff and Sandler are referring to in krema II?
Could just stop giving them the time of day.
Dogged, persistent, like a dog with a bone, I want answers!

I also think it is more fun and productive than the bickering with them.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:30 pm

:kit:
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:52 pm

I like to make them do the dance when I ask for evidence, the dancing around the evidence dance. Dance for me deniers!
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by montgomery » Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:37 am

Nessie wrote:I like to make them do the dance when I ask for evidence, the dancing around the evidence dance. Dance for me deniers!
I've told you a dozen times I'm not a denier Nessie, but you keep insisting I am and asking for me to produce some denial for you.

In the real world, VFX is more than holding his own in a debate with you. And that's not even have to take into consideration your turn to the dark side with the spam and the personal insults..

You said:
I also think it is more fun and productive than the bickering with them.
That's what you used to think. Now you're craving holocaust denial and personal insults back from me and VFX. You ain't gonna bet any from me. All you get is a diminishing of your reputation and your credibility. It's a different sandbox now Nessie. We're all going to be nice kids!Your side of the debate showered the abuse on you when you showed up and started to allow a debate. You might be able to get both sides against you if you keep trying.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:49 am

I very seriously doubt Nessie would be influenced by a mere opportunistic troll seeking to disrupt in any which way on any platform s/he can gain access to.
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Lard, save me from your followers.