Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Balmoral95 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:25 am

Hey Nessie, did it ever occur to you that all those dudes who wanted your arse out of RODOH just succeeded: Using this method you're going to stuck here with boy wonder for the next decade :mrgreen:

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Denying-History » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:29 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Got it:

First design: based on drawing 2036 of11th January 1943, the orders of 18th January and 19th March 1943 for FOUR gas-tight doors and that of 13th February 1943 for 12 gas-tight windows for BOTH Krematorien IV and V (SIX per building).

...and 6 windows (3 per room), one being INSIDE the corridor giving access to the chambers, unlike the five others that are on the outside)...
https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... 0447.shtml
I think only two of the rooms had three windows:
Image

But yeah. Basically.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:38 am

There are only two rooms (on this portion of the blueprint). :-P The smallest part is the corridor. With the gas-tight window to the room below on this view (and two others on the outer wall. Later bricked up, I think?).


The four gas-tight doors would be the two on the outside walls and the two leading into each room from the corridor. IIRC, later there was another outside door added or was set differently to have a better airflow after gassings, taking advantage of the naturally strong breeze.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:31 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
^
Image
Right eggs, an F- for everybody on this gong show example. Deservedly for me because I just sat back and let everybody else do my homework assignment for me! I would give you and the others an F+ for the way you all stepped into each others piles of dog sh-t. ;)

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:36 am

scrmbldggs wrote:There are only two rooms (on this portion of the blueprint). :-P The smallest part is the corridor. With the gas-tight window to the room below on this view (and two others on the outer wall. Later bricked up, I think?).


The four gas-tight doors would be the two on the outside walls and the two leading into each room from the corridor. IIRC, later there was another outside door added or was set differently to have a better airflow after gassings, taking advantage of the naturally strong breeze.
eggs, Could you check with somebody who doesn't just 'think' and is sure he remembers correctly? Then get back to me o.k?

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Balmoral95 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:37 am

montgomery wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
^
Image
Right eggs, an F- for everybody on this gong show example. Deservedly for me because I just sat back and let everybody else do my homework assignment for me! I would give you and the others an F+ for the way you all stepped into each others piles of dog sh-t. ;)
And the faux veneer of decorum and ettiquette slowly erodes away, inch by inch, night after night....

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:47 am

Image

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Balmoral95 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:48 am

montgomery wrote:
Image
You witty dog....

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Denying-History » Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:03 am

scrmbldggs wrote:There are only two rooms (on this portion of the blueprint). :-P The smallest part is the corridor. With the gas-tight window to the room below on this view (and two others on the outer wall. Later bricked up, I think?).
Not sure if it was bricked or not. Just remember it was shrunk to allow the use for gassings with 500g cans for a large number of people instead of the normal use of 2 one kg cans. Kinda irrelevant though.
scrmbldggs wrote:The four gas-tight doors would be the two on the outside walls and the two leading into each room from the corridor. IIRC, later there was another outside door added or was set differently to have a better airflow after gassings, taking advantage of the naturally strong breeze.
From memory Pressac claims in (I believe) April a ventilation system was installed into Krema V. So airflow doesn't really matter. I am not sure about the naturally strong breezes in that area, however before the ventilation was installed this is how the building was ventilated.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Nessie » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:01 am

montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:Thank you. That fills the bill for me to be able to comment.

I accept that as a second hand report from the Riedel foreman
I would describe it as primary, since he is reporting what he had done.
In actual fact it's third hand. Somebody is telling what the foreman did and you're relaying it here. So technically, but I don't think I want to dwell on that any further.
It is the foreman himself, handwriting down in numbered order the work that has been done, on the form in the section headed "Type and amount of work done" and "Daily Output", as shown better here;

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... e446.shtml

Somebody may have told the foreman he had done the work, rather than the foreman himself did the work or the foreman checked the work of others, either way, that is a primary report from someone who was there and knew exactly what was being done.
who was claimed to have fitted gas'tight windows
I would say it is highly unlikely he lied in his work report and it was not just fitting gas tight windows.
I would say there's lots of room for errors and lies in information that is third hand at least.
Which is why it is important to establish the record is a primary source. Third hand would mean someone told someone who told the writer to record the work done. even then, it is all by workers at the kremas.
in rooms whose function was unspecified.
The important part is he described the work as "ground covered with hard fill, tamped down and floor concreted in gas chamber". There should be no doubting the work was for a gas chamber.
It's my opinion still, and now perhaps more, that there is lots of room for doubt gathering around this story. It's being voiced by others on this board.
Then I would be skeptical of the suggestion that it was 'sensibly deduced' that the rooms were intended to be used as gas chambers.
For instance, any room in a building that stood next to a gas chambers of any intent, would likely need gas-tight windows to protect it's inhabitants from lethal gasses. Either in it's own windows or in the windows of the assumed gas chamber. Saying that if you are going to gas some sort of living thing in your house, either gastight windows in your house or my house will protect me.
All we can deduce is that there was the construction of a gas chamber. There is nothing in that evidence to say what was to be gassed.
Good point.
That I've said so far is from my limited knowledge on lethal gas. of which I understand can't be dealt with in the shoddy manner in which some of the stories relate. But it does lead to needing to now find a reference to that particular story as it has been related here by your reference. This is perhaps where JeffK can provide the contradicting evidence?
There is no contradicting evidence. Deniers accept the documents show gas chambers were built inside the kremas. They dispute the gas chambers were for homicidal gassing. They variously claim they were actually delousing chambers, bomb shelters, mortuaries or showers. Quite why they think that, since I am sure the Riedel foreman would have then said he had laid a concrete floor in the bomb shelter, delousing chamber, bomb shelter or mortuary instead.
The Reidel foreman's evidence is questionable. And as you state, the 'deniers' (whoever they are) appear to say that the gas chambers were meant for delousing. If indeed they are actually saying that? Maybe they were liars and exaggerators of the other side?
That is jumping ahead to the next part, what were the gas chambers for?

There is nothing questionable about the Reidel foreman's evidence. He wrote down in a worksheet recording work done that work had been completed in a gas chamber.

That is the sum total of that evidence. It is evidence a gas chamber was being built inside a krema.

The next stage is to determine what it was for.
Have I dealt with your submission in a satisfactory way so far?

I will say that your choice of the specific topic is a good one. We should stick with it now and examine it to find if it can stand as evidence by itself.
OK, next I would suggest two clearly related documents;
No, not yet. We could almost write a book on the outstanding questions that haven't been answered. And you do appreciate that I'm not an expert on the topic so my research is going to take longer.
All I am asking is if you agree work was being done to build gas chambers. I had not even moved onto what the gas chambers were for.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Nessie » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:04 am

Balmoral95 wrote:Hey Nessie, did it ever occur to you that all those dudes who wanted your arse out of RODOH just succeeded: Using this method you're going to stuck here with boy wonder for the next decade :mrgreen:
I'll post there as well, just less often.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Denying-History » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:28 am

Nessie wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:Hey Nessie, did it ever occur to you that all those dudes who wanted your arse out of RODOH just succeeded: Using this method you're going to stuck here with boy wonder for the next decade :mrgreen:
I'll post there as well, just less often.
>Rodoh = less post
>Skepic = less post
>Codoh = banned, if not already then in future

Not sure where else you’d go.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:21 am

montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:Thank you. That fills the bill for me to be able to comment.

I accept that as a second hand report from the Riedel foreman
I would describe it as primary, since he is reporting what he had done.
In actual fact it's third hand. Somebody is telling what the foreman did and you're relaying it here. So technically, but I don't think I want to dwell on that any further.
If you're not joking you should be. OTOH you may be confusing Pressac's text with the source document? Who knows with you? There is no
montgomery wrote:room for doubt gathering around this story
because there is no story. There is a foreman's report of what was done, stated as one item on his list, matter of factly, as such reports go; the foreman's list and this item simply need to be interpreted in the light of what the report itself says and then other evidence. It is a primary source, not a third-hand reflection; it is not clear if you want it to be "third hand" because you don't know how to read or you have some other "skeptic's" agenda.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:36 pm

Denying-History wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:There are only two rooms (on this portion of the blueprint). :-P The smallest part is the corridor. With the gas-tight window to the room below on this view (and two others on the outer wall. Later bricked up, I think?).
Not sure if it was bricked or not. Just remember it was shrunk to allow the use for gassings with 500g cans for a large number of people instead of the normal use of 2 one kg cans. Kinda irrelevant though.
I think it said "filled in", but yes not relevant here. I might have remembered and conflated the "second (half bricked-up) window of the vestibule" of Krema IV from below page.
scrmbldggs wrote:The four gas-tight doors would be the two on the outside walls and the two leading into each room from the corridor. IIRC, later there was another outside door added or was set differently to have a better airflow after gassings, taking advantage of the naturally strong breeze.
From memory Pressac claims in (I believe) April a ventilation system was installed into Krema V. So airflow doesn't really matter. I am not sure about the naturally strong breezes in that area, however before the ventilation was installed this is how the building was ventilated.
The mentioned changes I remembered also pertain to Krema IV: "In the backgound is the north side of Krematorium IV, on which it is possible to identify...the door opening on the corridor serving the two westernmost rooms.

The creation of an access door in the north wall of the western part of the building, not shown on Drawing 2036...In order to make the operation of the gas chambers more rational and less dangerous (ventilation through the vestibule), a door was made in the north wall in order to cause a north-south draught, the prevailing winds being northerly. It was thus possible to rapidly clear the poisoned air while keeping the door between the corridor and the vestibule was kept closed."
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:41 pm

Nessie wrote:

All I am asking is if you agree work was being done to build gas chambers. I had not even moved onto what the gas chambers were for.
I really don't Nessie, and it's largely due to lack of original documents that address that issue specifically. Also, there has been a large amount of fumbling around with discrepancies by the forum members who have posted on this thread.

I must say also that I don't consider the reference to the use of the supposed gas chambers to be out of bounds. However, I do favor a conversation on the gc's as that is a topic that is being attacked probably more than any other by the side that questions the whole legend. It seems to me that it's on the edge of being completely abandoned and that notion was strengthened by one of the members here who mentioned the possibility in passing. (I can't remember which one it was but I can rule out quite a few who have never engaged in any on-topic discussion with me.)
----------------------------------

Besides the topic, I notice that you're getting hammered with flak for even taking part in a conversation on the topic. Bear with it and hopefully more respectable posters will come to your assistance. That's probably the only way of beating back the childish nonsense.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:46 pm

Nessie wrote:

All I am asking is if you agree work was being done to build gas chambers. I had not even moved onto what the gas chambers were for.
I really don't Nessie, and it's largely due to lack of original documents that address that issue specifically. Also, there has been a large amount of fumbling around with discrepancies by the forum members who have posted on this thread.

I must say also that I don't consider the reference to the use of the supposed gas chambers to be out of bounds. However, I do favor a conversation on the gc's as that is a topic that is being attacked probably more than any other by the side that questions the whole legend. It seems to me that it's on the edge of being completely abandoned and that notion was strengthened by one of the members here who mentioned the possibility in passing. (I can't remember which one it was but I can rule out quite a few who have never engaged in any on-topic discussion with me.) I have to remain a skeptic who can see possibilities of truth coming from both sides.
----------------------------------

Besides the topic, I notice that you're getting hammered with flak for even taking part in a conversation on the topic. Bear with it and hopefully more respectable posters will come to your assistance. That's probably the only way of beating back the childish nonsense.[/quote]

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:58 pm

I might have mentioned it before, but the button for editing one's posts is the one with the little pencil. (To read button functions, simply hover the mouse over it.)
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:04 pm

scrmbldggs wrote: (To read button functions, simply hover the mouse over it.)
I tried that but the creepy little bastard has wings:

Image
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:31 pm

Aww, cute!
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Darren Wilshak » Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:43 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Speaking of which, does anyone else miss ralphgordon?
Deeply, its as if a bone was removed from me.

Who is this Montgomery bloke, Denierbud, Ugly voice, Budly? Of some other liar/chancer?

Like the idea that Ian/Fish/Depth/Traynor can now add Wyngarde to his sockpuppets.

Very much!

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:51 pm

I'm honestly the new guy who is here to learn the truth. The most important thing I've learned so far is that the pro side on this forum is doing a very poor job of showing they are grownups with credibility.

But slowly we're getting into some useful discussion that's been initiated by Nessie. Trouble is, nearly everybody has an agenda of preventing any discussions from happening. It seems that's mostly due to pressure from Stat.mech. to not stray from his/her dogma. So how about you Darren?

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Nessie » Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:16 pm

montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:

All I am asking is if you agree work was being done to build gas chambers. I had not even moved onto what the gas chambers were for.
I really don't Nessie, and it's largely due to lack of original documents that address that issue specifically.
How is this a lack?

1 - Letter from SS Hauptsturmfuhrer Bischoff on 29th January 1943;

"Krematorium II has been completed but for minor details, thanks to employing all available forces, despite enormous difficulties and freezing weather, using day and night shifts. The furnaces have been lit in the presence of Herr Chief Engineer Prufer of the firm responsible for their construction, Topf & Sons of Erfurt, and they function perfectly. Because of the frost, it has not yet been possible to remove the formwork from the ceiling of the corpse cellar. This is of no consequence, however, as the gassing cellar can be used to this end."

2 - Daily report on the construction of Kremas IV and V on 2nd March 1943;

"On Tuesday 2nd March 1943, the Riedel foreman who, two days earlier had fitted the gas-tight windows in rooms whose function was unspecified, was again working there. and sensibly deduced that he was in a “gas chamber”. His daily report mentions under point 5 (in the room with the windows): “Fußboden Aufschüttung auffülen, stampfen und Fußboden betonieren im Gasskammer / ground covered with hard fill, tamped down and floor concreted in gas chamber”.

3 - Memo from Topf & Sons engineer, Fritz Sander on 17th February 1943;

"February 17, 1943. Mr Schultze calls and advises of the following:
1). The ventilation blower number 450 for the gas cellar cannot be found there although it supposedly had been delivered by us. In the meantime,Mr Heinemann has established that the blower was in fact delivered on November 18, 1942; therefore it should be in stock there. Since, according to Mr Schultze, it is not there and is urgently required, we must immediately deliver it again and produce it in accelerated fashion."

4 - Order of 13 February 1943 on “12 gas tight doors approx. 30/40” for crematorium 4 and 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 444]
5 -Order of 15 February 1943 on “210 anchors for gas tight doors” for crematorium 4 [Pressac, Technique, p. 448]
6- Order of 19 February 1943 on “4 tight doors” for crematorium 4 [Pressac, Technique, p. 452]
7 - List of materials of 24 February 1943 on “12 gas tight doors approx. 30/40” for crematorium 4 and 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 444]
8 - Delivery note of 24 February 1943 on “fittings of 12 gas tight doors” for crematorium 4 and 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 443]
9 - Work time sheet of 28 February 1943 on “fit gas tight windows” in crematorium 4 [Pressac, Technique, p. 445]
10 - Order from Karl Bischoff of 31 March 1943 on “3 gas tight doors” of crematorium 4 and 5 and “gas door 100/192 for corpse cellar 1…with double 8 mm glass and peephole” of crematorium 2 and 3 [Pressac, Technique, p. 436]
11 - Transfer document of 31 March 1943 on “gas door” in crematorium 2 [Pressac, Technique, p. 437]
12 - Order of 6 April 1943 on “24 anchor bolts for gas tight doors” for crematorium 4 and 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 454]
13 - Order of 16 April 1943 on “iron for fittings for 5 gas doors” for crematorium 4 and 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 438]
14 - Order of 16 April 1943 on “fitting for 1 gas door” for crematorium 3 [Pressac, Technique, p. 439]
12 - Work time sheet of 16 April 1943 on “fit gas door” in crematorium 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 454]
13 - Transfer inventory of 24th June 1943 on “14 showers” and “1 gas tight door” in crematorium 3 [Pressac, Technique , p. 430]

14 - Letter from Topf & Sons, to the central construction office Auschwitz 2nd March 1943;

"We acknowledge receipt of your telegram specifying 'Immediately send ten gas detectors as agreed, price quote to follow.'
We hereby inform you that two weeks ago we inquired, of five different companies, concerning the display devices for prussic acid [hydrogen cyanide] residues sought by you. We have received negative responses from three companies and two have not yet answered.
When we receive information on this matter, we shall immediately contact you, in order to put you in touch with a company that makes these devices."
Also, there has been a large amount of fumbling around with discrepancies by the forum members who have posted on this thread.
There is no discrepancy. All agree on, the above documents all reference gas. Only you are expressing any doubts. Maybe you can explain why?
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:55 pm

Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:

All I am asking is if you agree work was being done to build gas chambers. I had not even moved onto what the gas chambers were for.
I really don't Nessie, and it's largely due to lack of original documents that address that issue specifically.
How is this a lack?

1 - Letter from SS Hauptsturmfuhrer Bischoff on 29th January 1943;

"Krematorium II has been completed but for minor details, thanks to employing all available forces, despite enormous difficulties and freezing weather, using day and night shifts. The furnaces have been lit in the presence of Herr Chief Engineer Prufer of the firm responsible for their construction, Topf & Sons of Erfurt, and they function perfectly. Because of the frost, it has not yet been possible to remove the formwork from the ceiling of the corpse cellar. This is of no consequence, however, as the gassing cellar can be used to this end."
Here's my explanation which you've asked for. The only thing that could be claimed to be malicious in that entire statement above is the mention of the gassing cellar. And so, accepting that the statement is produced honestly from existing original documents, which it isn't itself, it still falls short of producing any proof. In fact it states that the discussion is acknowledging a corpse cellar.

So a question for you: Are they suggesting a cellar under a cellar or are they suggesting two cellars side by side for different purposes. And if the latter then are they suggesting the formwork wouldn't be removed from only one half of the cellar? And then, why would one cellar be available for another use and not be needed for it's intended use? And then why is it being construed that the mention of a gassing cellar be a mention of a homicidal gas chamber as a cellar? Can any of the claimed gas chambers that have been shown be correctly referred to as cellars? (Cellars being translations from the German?)

Frankly Nessie, there has been far too much misrepresentation of evidence on the gas chambers issue for anyone to be totally accepting of second or third or fourth hand evidence, and not remain a skeptic.

All I ask is that I am accepted as a skeptic and not labelled as a denier and then spammed and insulted because of that dishonesty stance of the pro-side. Much the same way you are being abused.

Thanks for taking the effort to sort some of this out.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:01 pm

As usual, dishing out a large serving of word salad with that endless whine.



And still not able to count to potato five.
Last edited by scrmbldggs on Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Darren Wilshak » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:05 pm

These guys have a huge amount of credibility though, it sort of strikes me that its you on the other hand as the self confessed new guy just asking questions that are the one here who is lacking in that. Buf feel free to waste their time tap dancing and pleading to be thought of as a skeptic.

Its mildly entertaining in a pointless sort of way.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:28 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote:These guys have a huge amount of credibility though, it sort of strikes me that its you on the other hand as the self confessed new guy just asking questions that are the one here who is lacking in that. Buf feel free to waste their time tap dancing and pleading to be thought of as a skeptic.

Its mildly entertaining in a pointless sort of way.
Another write-off.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Nessie » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:34 pm

montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:

All I am asking is if you agree work was being done to build gas chambers. I had not even moved onto what the gas chambers were for.
I really don't Nessie, and it's largely due to lack of original documents that address that issue specifically.
How is this a lack?

1 - Letter from SS Hauptsturmfuhrer Bischoff on 29th January 1943;

"Krematorium II has been completed but for minor details, thanks to employing all available forces, despite enormous difficulties and freezing weather, using day and night shifts. The furnaces have been lit in the presence of Herr Chief Engineer Prufer of the firm responsible for their construction, Topf & Sons of Erfurt, and they function perfectly. Because of the frost, it has not yet been possible to remove the formwork from the ceiling of the corpse cellar. This is of no consequence, however, as the gassing cellar can be used to this end."
Here's my explanation which you've asked for. The only thing that could be claimed to be malicious in that entire statement above is the mention of the gassing cellar.
Why is only gassing cellar "malicious"?
And so, accepting that the statement is produced honestly from existing original documents, which it isn't itself, it still falls short of producing any proof. In fact it states that the discussion is acknowledging a corpse cellar.
It mentions both. Unless you claim Bischoff is lying, it is proof there was a room that was for gassing.
So a question for you: Are they suggesting a cellar under a cellar or are they suggesting two cellars side by side for different purposes.
I do not think it suggests either. The design of the building shows it is certainly not a cellar under a celler.
And if the latter then are they suggesting the formwork wouldn't be removed from only one half of the cellar? And then, why would one cellar be available for another use and not be needed for it's intended use?
I am not sure why you even think that.
And then why is it being construed that the mention of a gassing cellar be a mention of a homicidal gas chamber as a cellar?
I have already told you that one document does not indicate what the gassing cellar was for.
Can any of the claimed gas chambers that have been shown be correctly referred to as cellars? (Cellars being translations from the German?)
Get a translation of Vergasungskeller for yourself if you are unsure.
Frankly Nessie, there has been far too much misrepresentation of evidence on the gas chambers issue for anyone to be totally accepting of second or third or fourth hand evidence, and not remain a skeptic.
The evidence is primary. It is from people who were there and involved directly in the construction work at the kremas.
All I ask is that I am accepted as a skeptic and not labelled as a denier and then spammed and insulted because of that dishonesty stance of the pro-side. Much the same way you are being abused.

Thanks for taking the effort to sort some of this out.
You need to explain exactly why you still doubt there were rooms in the kremas that had been constructed for gassings, when so much evidence showing such construction work has been produced.

As it stands, I find it very odd that all those documents, according to you, is a lack of evidence.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Nessie » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:36 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote:These guys have a huge amount of credibility though, it sort of strikes me that its you on the other hand as the self confessed new guy just asking questions that are the one here who is lacking in that. Buf feel free to waste their time tap dancing and pleading to be thought of as a skeptic.

Its mildly entertaining in a pointless sort of way.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:38 pm

montgomery wrote:
Darren Wilshak wrote:These guys have a huge amount of credibility though, it sort of strikes me that its you on the other hand as the self confessed new guy just asking questions that are the one here who is lacking in that. Buf feel free to waste their time tap dancing and pleading to be thought of as a skeptic.

Its mildly entertaining in a pointless sort of way.
Another write-off.
Yep, that's what Darren said. :mrgreen:
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:42 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote:Its mildly entertaining in a pointless sort of way.
Or pointlessly entertaining in a mild sort of way. Depending on when one drops in. . . .
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:43 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
montgomery wrote:Another write-off.
Yep, that's what Darren said. :mrgreen:
I distinctly heard him say "another JAQ-off."
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Nessie » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:58 pm

Montgomery.

It is stretching credibility to describe 14 separate documents sourced from Auschwitz archives, each of which references building work for a room to deal with gas, as lacking. It further stretches credibility to claim those documents are second, let alone are fourth hand.

I need to be provided with a very good reason why so much evidence does not prove the kremas each had a gas chamber.

Please note, accepting that the kremas had a gas chamber is in no way accepting they were for gassing people.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Darren Wilshak » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:10 pm

montgomery wrote:
Darren Wilshak wrote:These guys have a huge amount of credibility though, it sort of strikes me that its you on the other hand as the self confessed new guy just asking questions that are the one here who is lacking in that. Buf feel free to waste their time tap dancing and pleading to be thought of as a skeptic.

Its mildly entertaining in a pointless sort of way.
Another write-off.

Yes possibly you are. But I retain an open mind.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by montgomery » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:22 am

Nessie wrote:Montgomery.

It is stretching credibility to describe 14 separate documents sourced from Auschwitz archives, each of which references building work for a room to deal with gas, as lacking. It further stretches credibility to claim those documents are second, let alone are fourth hand.

I need to be provided with a very good reason why so much evidence does not prove the kremas each had a gas chamber.

Please note, accepting that the kremas had a gas chamber is in no way accepting they were for gassing people.
If accepting that each of the crematoriums had a gas chamber for a purpose other than gassing people, why would it be so important to you? Did each of the crematoriums need a gas chamber one for delousing clothing or corpses? I suppose corpses would need delousing before they were handled to put them in the crematoriums?

I think that each piece of evidence needs to be able to stand alone Nessie. There have been far too many lies and exaggerations in the past for us now to accept anything that is questionable. I put some questions to you so did you answer them? this forum has become so much of a frantic goat -uk now that it's very hard to keep track of anything meaningful.

Back to the gas chambers being needed for each crematorium: I sincerely doubt it because of the limited number of corpses that could be burnt. Any delousing chamber would easily be able to handle the workload of any crematorium, even the quickest and most modern ones.

I need you to try to convince me that there was any gassing of people at all? Since we've started to tall about it, members such as balmoral and Stat. mech. have said things that make me even more doubtful than I was in the beginning.

Stay with me on this, I think I'm making some progress and I hope you feel you are too!

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by montgomery » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:26 am

montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:Montgomery.

It is stretching credibility to describe 14 separate documents sourced from Auschwitz archives, each of which references building work for a room to deal with gas, as lacking. It further stretches credibility to claim those documents are second, let alone are fourth hand.

I need to be provided with a very good reason why so much evidence does not prove the kremas each had a gas chamber.

Please note, accepting that the kremas had a gas chamber is in no way accepting they were for gassing people.
If accepting that each of the crematoriums had a gas chamber for a purpose other than gassing people, why would it be so important to you? Did each of the crematoriums need a gas chamber one for delousing clothing or corpses? I suppose corpses would need delousing before they were handled to put them in the crematoriums?

I think that each piece of evidence needs to be able to stand alone Nessie. There have been far too many lies and exaggerations in the past for us now to accept anything that is questionable. I put some questions to you so did you answer them? this forum has become so much of a frantic goat -uk now that it's very hard to keep track of anything meaningful. And the constant paranoia of the self appointed boss doesn't help anybody on this board gain credibility. Whey would any grownup believe a bunch of precocious mutt kids scrabbling over who can make the silliest insult? I pity you trying to keep it all on the serious side! Supposing there is a 'serious' side??

Back to the gas chambers being needed for each crematorium: I sincerely doubt it because of the limited number of corpses that could be burnt. Any delousing chamber would easily be able to handle the workload of any crematorium, even the quickest and most modern ones.

I need you to try to convince me that there was any gassing of people at all? Since we've started to tall about it, members such as balmoral and Stat. mech. have said things that make me even more doubtful than I was in the beginning.

Stay with me on this, I think I'm making some progress and I hope you feel you are too!

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Nessie » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:42 am

montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:Montgomery.

It is stretching credibility to describe 14 separate documents sourced from Auschwitz archives, each of which references building work for a room to deal with gas, as lacking. It further stretches credibility to claim those documents are second, let alone are fourth hand.

I need to be provided with a very good reason why so much evidence does not prove the kremas each had a gas chamber.

Please note, accepting that the kremas had a gas chamber is in no way accepting they were for gassing people.
If accepting that each of the crematoriums had a gas chamber for a purpose other than gassing people, why would it be so important to you? Did each of the crematoriums need a gas chamber one for delousing clothing or corpses? I suppose corpses would need delousing before they were handled to put them in the crematoriums?

I think that each piece of evidence needs to be able to stand alone Nessie. There have been far too many lies and exaggerations in the past for us now to accept anything that is questionable. I put some questions to you so did you answer them? this forum has become so much of a frantic goat -uk now that it's very hard to keep track of anything meaningful.

Back to the gas chambers being needed for each crematorium: I sincerely doubt it because of the limited number of corpses that could be burnt. Any delousing chamber would easily be able to handle the workload of any crematorium, even the quickest and most modern ones.

I need you to try to convince me that there was any gassing of people at all? Since we've started to tall about it, members such as balmoral and Stat. mech. have said things that make me even more doubtful than I was in the beginning.

Stay with me on this, I think I'm making some progress and I hope you feel you are too!
No, I do not think any progress is being made. I think it has become pointless to present you with evidence and answer your questions.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:46 am

He continued to insist that the foreman's report was third hand. It's hard to move on when he cannot or will not grasp the most basic point.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Nessie » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:00 am

Every single document has been sourced in the archives and most by either a denier (Mattogno) or someone deniers are happy to trust (Pressac). Most are also available to view online as originals. That deals with authenticity. There is no doubting those documents come from Auschwitz in 1943.

All of the documents are primary and contemporary sources that were written by people who were at the camp at the time; Bischoff, the Riedel foreman, an employee of Topf & Sons etc. The reference the kremas, the camp and are dated.

All of them are about construction work in the various Birkenau kremas and mention gas. Three call the ongoing work as taking place in a cellar or chamber for gas.

If that is insufficient to prove rooms for gassing were constructed in the Birkenau kremas in 1943, then absolutely nothing is going to be sufficient to prove anything at all about anything. If what has been presented is not considered compelling evidence for gas chambers, then the rest of the evidence which shows the chambers were to gas people is going to be dismissed. So further discussion on this topic is pointless as I already know what the response is going to be.
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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by VFX » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:06 am

Nessie wrote:
If that is insufficient to prove rooms for gassing were constructed in the Birkenau kremas in 1943, then absolutely nothing is going to be sufficient to prove anything at all about anything.
:D :D :D :D
Last edited by VFX on Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Documents alone prove mass gassing at Birkenau.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:26 am

Nessie wrote:So further discussion on this topic is pointless as I already know what the response is going to be.
The next step would be for them to change the subject to something else - a nice, new shiny object to distract from their not dealing with the documents you've linked to.
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