Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

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Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:45 pm

Our newest member Montgomery said this to me:
I have read your post. Yes, I could elaborate on that but no, I won't. It's going to be up to all of you to suggest instances of lies and exaggerations, as opposed to facts that are not at odds with science and logic.
Now, I’m not sure what Montgomery wants but to start us off here is one that comes to mind:

Image

Now, obviously this is an exaggeration. It’s not a lie, not necessarily (obviously a lot of people died at Auschwitz) but the Soviets made a mistake in thinking that Auschwitz was an extermination camp the entire time it was open.

From the Nuremberg Trials:
However, employing rectified coefficients for the part-time use of the crematorium ovens and for the periods when they stood empty, the technical expert commission has ascertained that during the period of time that the Auschwitz Camp existed the German butchers exterminated in this camp not less than 4 million citizens of the U.S.S.R., Poland, France, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Holland, Belgium, and other countries."
We also have this regarding Majdanek:
"The Polish-Soviet Extraordinary Commission has ascertained that during the 4 years' existence of the extermination camp at Maidanek the Hitlerite hangmen, following the direct order of their criminal government, exterminated by mass shooting and mass killing in gas chambers approximately 1.5 million persons: Soviet prisoners of war, prisoners of war of the former Polish Army, and nationals of various countries- Poles, Frenchmen, Italians, Belgians, Dutch, Czechs, Serbs, Greeks, Croats, and a great number of Jews."
Obviously these examples are exaggerations. In the case of Majdanek the Soviets didn’t recognize (or maybe didn’t care) that Majdanek operated as a storage camp for items plundered from Jews during Operation Reinhard, specifically from Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor.

So, exaggerations yes but lies? No. I acknowledge that the Soviets exaggerated death tolls for propaganda purposes. I understand that and that at the time they investigated these camps not everything was known about them.

So, that’s my first contribution to stuff I think Montgomery wants to talk about. Hopefully this will serve as an example so he can contribute something.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-19-46.asp
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by montgomery » Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:06 pm

I would suggest that overstating facts is equivalent to lying. But lying isn't necessarily the equivalent to overstating facts. Can you provide instances to prove both statements.

For instance: A Polish gentleman I know stated to me that at Auschwitz II the death toll by the Germans was 200,000 tops. That's exactly the shocking way in which he made the statement. I should add that he claims he lived within a mile or so of Auschwitz-Birkenau during the war.


My question is not whether that is a lie, exaggeration, or the truth. I question whether it can be termed to be an *under-exaggeration or a lie? I don't see any relevant distinction between the two in this instance. Lies and exaggerations can mean the same thing.

*I use the term 'under-exaggeration' to mean misrepresenting the small proportions as opposed to the large proportions of the statement.

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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:15 pm

montgomery wrote:I would suggest that overstating facts is equivalent to lying. But lying isn't necessarily the equivalent to overstating facts. Can you provide instances to prove both statements.
Why don’t you give me examples?
For instance: A Polish gentleman I know stated to me that at Auschwitz II the death toll by the Germans was 200,000 tops. That's exactly the shocking way in which he made the statement. I should add that he claims he lived within a mile or so of Auschwitz-Birkenau during the war.
I have no way of knowing but he’s probably referring to Polish deaths, not Jewish. If I remember correctly that’s about how many ethnic Poles died in the entire camp.
My question is not whether that is a lie, exaggeration, or the truth. I question whether it can be termed to be an *under-exaggeration or a lie? I don't see any relevant distinction between the two in this instance. Lies and exaggerations can mean the same thing.
I’d say he was mistaken or didn’t explain himself very well. I’d also want to know how he got those numbers, some guy living close to the camp doesn’t really tell me anything.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Denying-History » Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:33 pm

«A Polish gentleman I know stated to me that at Auschwitz II the death toll by the Germans was 200,000 tops.»

Translation: “Hearsay says you all exaggerate! It was only 200,000!”

You should take some time to learn some of the demographics of the number of people who died. It’s Well documented a number of victims went unrecorded.
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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by montgomery » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:32 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
montgomery wrote:I would suggest that overstating facts is equivalent to lying. But lying isn't necessarily the equivalent to overstating facts. Can you provide instances to prove both statements.
Why don’t you give me examples?
For instance: A Polish gentleman I know stated to me that at Auschwitz II the death toll by the Germans was 200,000 tops. That's exactly the shocking way in which he made the statement. I should add that he claims he lived within a mile or so of Auschwitz-Birkenau during the war.
I have no way of knowing but he’s probably referring to Polish deaths, not Jewish. If I remember correctly that’s about how many ethnic Poles died in the entire camp.
My question is not whether that is a lie, exaggeration, or the truth. I question whether it can be termed to be an *under-exaggeration or a lie? I don't see any relevant distinction between the two in this instance. Lies and exaggerations can mean the same thing.
I’d say he was mistaken or didn’t explain himself very well. I’d also want to know how he got those numbers, some guy living close to the camp doesn’t really tell me anything.
I'm going to stick with saying that lying is usually the same as exaggerating. The web backs that with lots of sites that say that.

The Polish gentleman who made that statement wasn't talking about just Polish deaths, he was talking about deaths in A-B. Why he said that, I can't say for sure. I don't know what would motivate a person to say that? Especially a Polish gentleman who I wouldn't suspect of purposely lying. I tend to think he believed what he said.

Why do you think holocaust deniers lie about some aspects of the holocaust? Why do some people make up ridiculous stories about the holocaust that were long ago proven to not be true? You'll be well aware of those ones.

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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by montgomery » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:37 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Translation: “Hearsay says you all exaggerate! It was only 200,000!”
Once again you have difficulty writing proper sentences that have a clear meaning. I've deciphered it's meaning the best I can and it appears that you are trying to suggest that I'm saying you're all lying and I'm saying that the number was 200,000.

That's pretty close to what I would expect of somebody like you.

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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:54 pm

montgomery wrote:
I'm going to stick with saying that lying is usually the same as exaggerating. The web backs that with lots of sites that say that.
Exaggerating contains some truth. The Soviets exaggerated the number of dead, it doesn’t mean that large numbers of people didn’t die in those camps.
.
The Polish gentleman who made that statement wasn't talking about just Polish deaths, he was talking about deaths in A-B. Why he said that, I can't say for sure. I don't know what would motivate a person to say that? Especially a Polish gentleman who I wouldn't suspect of purposely lying. I tend to think he believed what he said.
Maybe but he was mistaken. I’m inclined to think he mixed up numbers or misunderstood something he saw or read.

Why do you think holocaust deniers lie about some aspects of the holocaust?
Some aspects? Like what?
Why do some people make up ridiculous stories about the holocaust that were long ago proven to not be true? You'll be well aware of those ones.
Like what?
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Balmoral95 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:59 pm

Who cares about a one-off man-in-the-street opinion.

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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Denying-History » Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:13 am

montgomery wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Translation: “Hearsay says you all exaggerate! It was only 200,000!”
Once again you have difficulty writing proper sentences that have a clear meaning. I've deciphered it's meaning the best I can and it appears that you are trying to suggest that I'm saying you're all lying and I'm saying that the number was 200,000.

That's pretty close to what I would expect of somebody like you.
I think it’s quite clear. Lol In fact it’s very clear - it could just be you’re slow.

But of course you avoid the actual case that your using hearsay.

Here let me make this simple for you. I NEVER said YOU are saying the number was 200,000. I was saying you have QUESTIONED the death toll to a degree, and one of the bits of REASONING - that YOU give - is that some random “pole” said the number wasn’t higher then “200,000” people. Which is HEARSAY and not evidence for anyone to base a conclusion on.
Last edited by Denying-History on Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Balmoral95 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:26 am

Denying-History wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Translation: “Hearsay says you all exaggerate! It was only 200,000!”
Once again you have difficulty writing proper sentences that have a clear meaning. I've deciphered it's meaning the best I can and it appears that you are trying to suggest that I'm saying you're all lying and I'm saying that the number was 200,000.

That's pretty close to what I would expect of somebody like you.
I think it’s quite clear. Lol In fact it’s very clear - it could just be you’re slow.

But of course you avoid the actual case that your using hearsay.

Be careful, D-H, he's "studying" us..... :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Denying-History » Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:30 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Translation: “Hearsay says you all exaggerate! It was only 200,000!”
Once again you have difficulty writing proper sentences that have a clear meaning. I've deciphered it's meaning the best I can and it appears that you are trying to suggest that I'm saying you're all lying and I'm saying that the number was 200,000.

That's pretty close to what I would expect of somebody like you.
I think it’s quite clear. Lol In fact it’s very clear - it could just be you’re slow.

But of course you avoid the actual case that your using hearsay.

Be careful, D-H, he's "studying" us..... :lol: :lol: :lol:
Like most unlicensed psychologists - he’s probably on to something!!! :mrgreen:
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:33 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’m inclined to think he mixed up numbers or misunderstood something he saw or read.
On what basis? {!#%@} all, you don't even know if this man exists or if the conversation occurred . . . the "discussion" here has taken an odd turn or two.
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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:52 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’m inclined to think he mixed up numbers or misunderstood something he saw or read.
On what basis? {!#%@} all, you don't even know if this man exists or if the conversation occurred . . . the "discussion" here has taken an odd turn or two.
This whole thing took an odd turn or two some time ago.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:11 am

LOL true dat
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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Aaron Richards » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:43 am

montgomery wrote:I can't say for sure. I don't know what would motivate a person to say that? Especially a Polish gentleman who I wouldn't suspect of purposely lying. I tend to think he believed what he said.
Can you elaborate on this view of yours? Why do you think a Pole (of all people) would have no reason to downplay the death toll?

I'll tell you what my observations are: As devout Catholics, some Poles are low-key resentful about the fact that those darn Jews, mostly living in America and Israel, have claimed this center of forced labor and extermination in the heart of Polska as a place of their death and suffering, instead of it being chiefly THEIRS. Some Poles still carry with them an inferiority complex stemming from the fact that they got tag-teamed by Germany and Russia within 2 weeks, and then the whole "abandoned by our allies" concept which led to them being a Communist satellite for the subsequent 4 decades. This is why a Pole will gladly tell you WW2 began with the invasion of their land, and that 6 million Poles died: 3 million Polish Catholics, 3 million Polish Jews. And this is why the nation is so fiercely nationalist these days, since they feel betrayed by everyone around them.

These observations do not make it impossible for a Catholic Pole to "have an open mind" and being led into denial. Not to exonerate the Nazis, but to one-up the Jews in their suffering.
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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Nessie » Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:25 am

montgomery wrote:......
I'm going to stick with saying that lying is usually the same as exaggerating. The web backs that with lots of sites that say that.

.....
Exaggeration as hyperbole to make a point. Which is not lying. There are lots of definitions to back that up, unlike your claim about exaggeration is usually the same as lying.

The initial Polish reports of mass murder in the camps did not draw much attention. The numbers of dead, both in reality and reports then kept on increasing as the war went on. Rumours were abound, people did not know how many had died.

Entire villages, towns, cities, even countries had their entire Jewish population disappear. Look up the places declared Juden frei by the Nazis.

After the war, many did not reappear. In many places no Jew reappeared at all. There are places which had a healthy Jewish population have remained with none even to now a days. The Dutch kept good records and have 18 survivors out of the 34,313 sent to Sobibor. There are towns in Poland where no Jew ever returned.

Add in Soviet propaganda and no wonder the numbers have at times, been found to have been exaggerated. No one needed to lie, the situation was bad enough as it was.

The numbers dead were exaggerations far more than they were lies.
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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by montgomery » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:20 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’m inclined to think he mixed up numbers or misunderstood something he saw or read.
On what basis? {!#%@} all, you don't even know if this man exists or if the conversation occurred . . . the "discussion" here has taken an odd turn or two.
This whole thing took an odd turn or two some time ago.
Interesting that Stat.mech. gets frantic at the suggestion that conversation even took place, or the man even existed. Is this the tone of a discussion on this section of the forum?

It sounded to me that he imagines I've created a division between him and you. There's noting further from the truth obviously. You don't even take a position on that challenge from Stat.mech!

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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:23 pm

“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:28 pm

montgomery wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’m inclined to think he mixed up numbers or misunderstood something he saw or read.
On what basis? {!#%@} all, you don't even know if this man exists or if the conversation occurred . . . the "discussion" here has taken an odd turn or two.
This whole thing took an odd turn or two some time ago.
Interesting that Stat.mech. gets frantic at the suggestion that conversation even took place, or the man even existed. Is this the tone of a discussion on this section of the forum?

It sounded to me that he imagines I've created a division between him and you. There's noting further from the truth obviously. You don't even take a position on that challenge from Stat.mech!
LOL

The people that post on this forum disagree. I've told you that.

As for this Polish gentleman, I have no idea if he exists or not but regardless he is wrong. I find from experience that people who don't spend time on this often tangle up details. Living close to the former camp doesn't make him an expert.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:44 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Going to do this in bits and pieces because I don't have time to spend watching a two hour long video today.

The gentleman at the beginning talked about Weber and Faurisson going to study the gas chambers at Mauthausen and Dachau. It's likely that the Dachau GC was only used for experimental purposes. The Mauthausen GC was used on a limited basis. Neither one was instrumental in the Final Solution.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:55 pm

Alright, so, here are the objections, pretty boiler plate stuff:

1) No driven policy to exterminate mass numbers of Jews

2) Gas chambers are mythical

3) Estimates of 6 million Jews are wildly exaggerated
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:56 pm

Nice that Weber acknowledges that Jews had a pretty shitty time.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:58 pm

First detection of Weber’s horseshit:
Nuremberg proved that gas chambers were used in German Concentration Camps.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:00 pm

Weber is now starting in on the Extermination Camps in Poland being in Soviet control.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:01 pm

I’ve already talked about Majdanek and Auschwitz.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:05 pm

Weber apparently doesn’t know that Hoess recanted the higher numbers in his book.

There’s no evidence that I know of that Hoess was tortured at Nuremberg or by the Poles.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:06 pm

Weber isn’t showing the areas where the Kremas were in the picture he just showed.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:26 pm

Bagging on witness testimony and newspaper articles.

Also Stalin killed less.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:36 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:The people that post on this forum disagree. I've told you that.
This is true. LOL. I still want a forensics report on this Polish guy.
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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:56 pm

Shermer’s kind of an awkward dude.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:00 pm

I realize that Shermer is willing to do these debates (though I don’t think he is still doing this) but I’m not sure he’s the best to do this.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Denying-History » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:11 pm

I think it’s more the environment he’s in when it comes to his debate about Weber. There are issues when it comes to Shermer such as rushed arguments and some unfair generalizations, but I generally don’t hate him.

I don’t think he however plans to debate with deniers anymore after some late developments. I’ll avoid going into detail due to Phyrro’s instructions.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:14 pm

But I completely agree with him in that it didn’t matter what Hitler and the Nazis originally intended to do with the Jews. The action evolved over time, when there was the ability to do so the Jews were forced out, when there were no longer options available other methods were used.

It’s worth noting that Hitler always tread lightly over German Jews, actually Western Jews in particular. This is particularly true with French Jews. There was much less restraint over Eastern Jews.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:16 pm

Denying-History wrote:I think it’s more the environment he’s in when it comes to his debate about Weber. There are issues when it comes to Shermer such as rushed arguments and some unfair generalizations, but I generally don’t hate him.

I don’t think he however plans to debate with deniers anymore after some late developments. I’ll avoid going into detail due to Phyrro’s instructions.

I know, I tread lightly over Shermer over Pyrro’s instructions.

I think you are right regarding the environment but I think that has to do with his command over the subject. He’s not a historian who focuses on the Holocaust.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:38 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:But I completely agree with him in that it didn’t matter what Hitler and the Nazis originally intended to do with the Jews. The action evolved over time, when there was the ability to do so the Jews were forced out, when there were no longer options available other methods were used.

It’s worth noting that Hitler always tread lightly over German Jews, actually Western Jews in particular. This is particularly true with French Jews. There was much less restraint over Eastern Jews.
3/4 of the Dutch Jews were shipped east and murdered; there were complicating factors in the western and southern European countries - different factors in each country which either facilitated or retarded "progress" at various times (Hungary, Romania, and of course Bulgaria had much lower %'s than did the Netherlands, and of course prewar emigration affected the German and Austrian mortality %'s)
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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:52 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:But I completely agree with him in that it didn’t matter what Hitler and the Nazis originally intended to do with the Jews. The action evolved over time, when there was the ability to do so the Jews were forced out, when there were no longer options available other methods were used.

It’s worth noting that Hitler always tread lightly over German Jews, actually Western Jews in particular. This is particularly true with French Jews. There was much less restraint over Eastern Jews.
3/4 of the Dutch Jews were shipped east and murdered; there were complicating factors in the western and southern European countries - different factors in each country which either facilitated or retarded "progress" at various times (Hungary, Romania, and of course Bulgaria had much lower %'s than did the Netherlands, and of course prewar emigration affected the German and Austrian mortality %'s)
Yes, the French only agreed to cooperate when it came to foreign Jews, the Danes didn’t cooperate at all, etc. It was easier where the Germans held total control and didn’t have to worry about sovereign or nominally sovereign nations.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by montgomery » Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:57 pm

Denying-History wrote:I think it’s more the environment he’s in when it comes to his debate about Weber. There are issues when it comes to Shermer such as rushed arguments and some unfair generalizations, but I generally don’t hate him.

I don’t think he however plans to debate with deniers anymore after some late developments. I’ll avoid going into detail due to Phyrro’s instructions.
Shermer's a smart guy and he did the best he could with the material he had to work with. He's also an atheist and that shows he not one of the sheep. I don't know of anybody else who could have rebutted the fact that the Sobbidor and Dachau stories were exaggerations. or lies, if you prefer.

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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by Denying-History » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:16 pm

Then you obviously don’t know anything about this subject considering it was dealt with back in the 1960’s.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by montgomery » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:18 pm

JeffK, Do you think that the way to account for all the lies and/or exaggerations is because some Jewish people had a motive of eliciting pity? There's no doubt that Israel is getting away with murder and apartheir against the Palestinian people and it's my opiinion that they wouldn't get away with half as much if they hadn't padded up the total with that kind of misinformation.

In any case, they've done a great injustice to the memory of the holocaust in a lot of people's minds. Had the lies and exaggerations not been told, perhaps there wouldn't have been an IHR? Now just about everything is suspect to them.

In my own case of not being a denier, I still am interested in digging up the truth because there's been so much wrong information.

Thanks for your reply on the 'lies and exaggerations' topic.

p.s. I don't think you have to take a backseat to Stat.mech. He was being rude and paranoid when he suggested that you don't know is 'somebody' actually existed. I would prefer that you stood up for what you believe and what you understand about Leuchter. You've not giving me a gift by at least acknowledging he existed. Paranoia tells us a lot about Stat.mech and his schtick.

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Re: Stuff We Can Talk About: Lies and Exaggerations

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:51 pm

:pc:
.
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