Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Denying-History » Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:09 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Does anyone remember that time Leuchter lied about working on a prison gas chamber?
Sure, but then again what didn't he lie about? :mrgreen:
:? That’s actually something I never thought about...

:lol:
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:42 am

Btw right now I am reading about Romania in the decades before and during WWII precisely to reinforce my established beliefs and illusions about Romania in those years, the way everyone here has deeply held and long-cherished beliefs about Romania, we are practically born with them.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Denying-History » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:06 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Btw right now I am reading about Romania in the decades before and during WWII precisely to reinforce my established beliefs and illusions about Romania in those years, the way everyone here has deeply held and long-cherished beliefs about Romania, we are practically born with them.
Heard some good things about this group called the "Iron Guard" in Romania during the time period you mentioned.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:10 am

Denying-History wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Btw right now I am reading about Romania in the decades before and during WWII precisely to reinforce my established beliefs and illusions about Romania in those years, the way everyone here has deeply held and long-cherished beliefs about Romania, we are practically born with them.
Heard some good things about this group called the "Iron Guard" in Romania during the time period you mentioned.
So far I am freaking out - there is not a single mention of gas chambers, a master plan, or 6 million!! Wtf? Yeah, so far the Iron Guard come across as, to borrow a phrase, good people.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Denying-History » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:13 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Btw right now I am reading about Romania in the decades before and during WWII precisely to reinforce my established beliefs and illusions about Romania in those years, the way everyone here has deeply held and long-cherished beliefs about Romania, we are practically born with them.
Heard some good things about this group called the "Iron Guard" in Romania during the time period you mentioned.
So far I am freaking out - there is not a single mention of gas chambers, a master plan, or 6 million!! Wtf? Yeah, so far the Iron Guard come across as, to borrow a phrase, good people.
If you haven't found this one yet - I read it at UofM Hatcher Graduate - It's well worth it.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:15 am

Thanks, I will order that. It will confirm my preconceived notions, won't it?
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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:49 am

montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
montgomery wrote:Keep the personal attacks coming! I'll list them under your name as to your credit/discredit!
You have me confused with someone who gives a {!#%@}.
You're right! In that I actually did think you seriously cared about the topic of this section of the forum.
Ah but of course I do. But not your tallies of credit/discredit (or clumsy dodges or barked orders). Your reading comprehension is a bit challenged, as has been pointed out.
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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by montgomery » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:03 pm

Jeff, If you're still interested in pursuing the holocaust topic, here's an answer to your question on what exaggerations or lies that were previously promoted and are now abandoned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xB73Pg4_08

Shermer and Weber debate each other and Weber lists off some of them starting at 1 hour and 3 minutes. Specifically, on Sobidor and Dachau but some others. If you would like to discuss any of them then please bring them up here.

As I suggested earlier, you are undoubtedly familiar with most of them.

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by montgomery » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:09 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
montgomery wrote:Keep the personal attacks coming! I'll list them under your name as to your credit/discredit!
You have me confused with someone who gives a {!#%@}.
You're right! In that I actually did think you seriously cared about the topic of this section of the forum.
Ah but of course I do. But not your tallies of credit/discredit (or clumsy dodges or barked orders). Your reading comprehension is a bit challenged, as has been pointed out.
Attack my message when I present my opinions, not me.
The previous message to Jeff will tell you where I am on this debate. I'm relying on Weber's comments to begin a conversation on abandoned holocaust claimes, as was asked of me by Jeff.

After such discussion takes place I'll have an opportunity to comment and state my opinion on what was established between Shermer and Weber.

Thanks.

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:38 pm

You are really posting cutting edge material.
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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:20 pm

montgomery wrote:
Jeff, If you're still interested in pursuing the holocaust topic, here's an answer to your question on what exaggerations or lies that were previously promoted and are now abandoned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xB73Pg4_08

Shermer and Weber debate each other and Weber lists off some of them starting at 1 hour and 3 minutes. Specifically, on Sobidor and Dachau but some others. If you would like to discuss any of them then please bring them up here.

As I suggested earlier, you are undoubtedly familiar with most of them.
Why didn't you post this on the proper topic? I realize that I am pretty casual about posting but I set up a thread for this. I will post the YouTube video there and discuss it there.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:13 pm

"Sobidor"? Where dat?
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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by montgomery » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:34 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Jeff, If you're still interested in pursuing the holocaust topic, here's an answer to your question on what exaggerations or lies that were previously promoted and are now abandoned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xB73Pg4_08

Shermer and Weber debate each other and Weber lists off some of them starting at 1 hour and 3 minutes. Specifically, on Sobidor and Dachau but some others. If you would like to discuss any of them then please bring them up here.

As I suggested earlier, you are undoubtedly familiar with most of them.
Why didn't you post this on the proper topic? I realize that I am pretty casual about posting but I set up a thread for this. I will post the YouTube video there and discuss it there.
The topics are all mixed up and half the conversation is off topic anyway. I'll accede to your wishes this time but don't start getting bossy with frivolous demands.. A little politeness from you would go a long way when the others have to be written off as rude, ignorant, and paranoid adults acting like children.

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Balmoral95 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:42 pm

montgomery wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Jeff, If you're still interested in pursuing the holocaust topic, here's an answer to your question on what exaggerations or lies that were previously promoted and are now abandoned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xB73Pg4_08

Shermer and Weber debate each other and Weber lists off some of them starting at 1 hour and 3 minutes. Specifically, on Sobidor and Dachau but some others. If you would like to discuss any of them then please bring them up here.

As I suggested earlier, you are undoubtedly familiar with most of them.
Why didn't you post this on the proper topic? I realize that I am pretty casual about posting but I set up a thread for this. I will post the YouTube video there and discuss it there.
The topics are all mixed up and half the conversation is off topic anyway. I'll accede to your wishes this time but don't start getting bossy with frivolous demands.. A little politeness from you would go a long way when the others have to be written off as rude, ignorant, and paranoid adults acting like children.
Fack off you ridiculous, ignorant, hypocritical, pompous twot. You came in here with a snoot full of trolling,obnoxious attitude.

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:57 pm

montgomery wrote:
The topics are all mixed up and half the conversation is off topic anyway.
I specifically started that thread for a reason, mainly to keep this conversation separate. You mentioned you wanted to discuss exaggerations.

I'll accede to your wishes this time but don't start getting bossy with frivolous demands..
I think I’ve been very patient with you and I sure as {!#%@} haven’t been bossy. I don’t make frivolous demands.

A little politeness from you would go a long way when the others have to be written off as rude, ignorant, and paranoid adults acting like children.
I think I’ve been very polite. Trust me when I stop being polite you will know.

Do not mistake my patience with you as some sort of obedience to your wishes. I’ve accommodated you out of curiosity and my natural inclination to give new members a chance to get used to us. I am willing to a point with the understanding that at some point you will get around to whatever it is you want to discuss. Do not disappoint me.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by montgomery » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:42 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
montgomery wrote:
The topics are all mixed up and half the conversation is off topic anyway.
I specifically started that thread for a reason, mainly to keep this conversation separate. You mentioned you wanted to discuss exaggerations.

I'll accede to your wishes this time but don't start getting bossy with frivolous demands..
I think I’ve been very patient with you and I sure as {!#%@} haven’t been bossy. I don’t make frivolous demands.

A little politeness from you would go a long way when the others have to be written off as rude, ignorant, and paranoid adults acting like children.
I think I’ve been very polite. Trust me when I stop being polite you will know.

Do not mistake my patience with you as some sort of obedience to your wishes. I’ve accommodated you out of curiosity and my natural inclination to give new members a chance to get used to us. I am willing to a point with the understanding that at some point you will get around to whatever it is you want to discuss. Do not disappoint me.
I'm discussing what I want to discuss. Maybe you just don't understand how you and the others are indtroducing the topics and allowed me to be able to stick to responding. More later.

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Denying-History » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:47 am

> Joined a forum where they have to defend what they say.
> Refuses to do so avoiding the topic that THEY started because THEY didn’t want to continue it. (If Leuchter was a con or not.)
> Accuses everyone else of being childish.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:51 am

Denying-History wrote:> Joined a forum where they have to defend what they say.
> Refuses to do so avoiding the topic that THEY started because THEY didn’t want to continue it. (If Leuchter was a con or not.)
> Accuses everyone else of being childish.
>Totally oblivious as to his own obnoxious behavior

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Denying-History » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:52 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:> Joined a forum where they have to defend what they say.
> Refuses to do so avoiding the topic that THEY started because THEY didn’t want to continue it. (If Leuchter was a con or not.)
> Accuses everyone else of being childish.
>Totally oblivious as to his own obnoxious behavior
Lol we both know he’s definitely doing this consciously.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:13 am

Denying-History wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:> Joined a forum where they have to defend what they say.
> Refuses to do so avoiding the topic that THEY started because THEY didn’t want to continue it. (If Leuchter was a con or not.)
> Accuses everyone else of being childish.
>Totally oblivious as to his own obnoxious behavior
Lol we both know he’s definitely doing this consciously.
Seen this crapola for years....

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:38 am

Denying-History wrote:Lol we both know he’s definitely doing this consciously.
Absolutely. It's not like it's a novel strategy . . . with the all the presence of vapor . . .
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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:42 am

>> with the understanding that at some point you will get around to whatever it is you want to discuss.

Tick tock.
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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by montgomery » Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:19 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:> Joined a forum where they have to defend what they say.
> Refuses to do so avoiding the topic that THEY started because THEY didn’t want to continue it. (If Leuchter was a con or not.)
> Accuses everyone else of being childish.
>Totally oblivious as to his own obnoxious behavior
A good post to reply to in order to answer everybody's comments. I think a very appropriate topic of discussion would be "OBNOXIOUS BEHAVIOR".

So far the comments directed at me have been angry and confrontational. Maybe a way to encourage everybody to lighten up a bit would be to change the name of this section to 'Holocaust Discussion'? The reason being, every conversation about the holocaust doesn't have to be about denial. And too, if it's changed to 'discussioin' then the confrontational attitude wouldn't be encouraged so much right from the start of a discussion. Just an idea!l

I'm actually suggesting that a couple of posters here have gone right off the deep end with their abuse and insulting manners. Maybe they would have started off in a more sane and controlled manner if the notion of denial hadn't been encouraged.

Barring personal feelings and experiences that relate to that, due to the holocaust, there's no reason why we can't all be more respectful of each others opinions. As I said before, the paranoia over even having a discussion on this section is so thick it could be cut with a knife.

Agree with my suggestion or not, this is my plea for better manners and more civil discussion. I have to say that I'm not interested in continuing with this sort of dismal atmosphere on this forum.

If we do continue then can we continue with a discussion on 'obnoxious behavior'?

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:27 pm

montgomery wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:> Joined a forum where they have to defend what they say.
> Refuses to do so avoiding the topic that THEY started because THEY didn’t want to continue it. (If Leuchter was a con or not.)
> Accuses everyone else of being childish.
>Totally oblivious as to his own obnoxious behavior
A good post to reply to in order to answer everybody's comments. I think a very appropriate topic of discussion would be "OBNOXIOUS BEHAVIOR".

So far the comments directed at me have been angry and confrontational. Maybe a way to encourage everybody to lighten up a bit would be to change the name of this section to 'Holocaust Discussion'? The reason being, every conversation about the holocaust doesn't have to be about denial. And too, if it's changed to 'discussioin' then the confrontational attitude wouldn't be encouraged so much right from the start of a discussion. Just an idea!l

I'm actually suggesting that a couple of posters here have gone right off the deep end with their abuse and insulting manners. Maybe they would have started off in a more sane and controlled manner if the notion of denial hadn't been encouraged.

Barring personal feelings and experiences that relate to that, due to the holocaust, there's no reason why we can't all be more respectful of each others opinions. As I said before, the paranoia over even having a discussion on this section is so thick it could be cut with a knife.

Agree with my suggestion or not, this is my plea for better manners and more civil discussion. I have to say that I'm not interested in continuing with this sort of dismal atmosphere on this forum.

If we do continue then can we continue with a discussion on 'obnoxious behavior'?
I think will just encourage much of the same. Why don’t you just let us know what you want to talk about, let us know what you believe and let us know how you came to your beliefs. From what I can tell you agree with Mark Weber, is that right?
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by montgomery » Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:50 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:> Joined a forum where they have to defend what they say.
> Refuses to do so avoiding the topic that THEY started because THEY didn’t want to continue it. (If Leuchter was a con or not.)
> Accuses everyone else of being childish.
>Totally oblivious as to his own obnoxious behavior
A good post to reply to in order to answer everybody's comments. I think a very appropriate topic of discussion would be "OBNOXIOUS BEHAVIOR".

So far the comments directed at me have been angry and confrontational. Maybe a way to encourage everybody to lighten up a bit would be to change the name of this section to 'Holocaust Discussion'? The reason being, every conversation about the holocaust doesn't have to be about denial. And too, if it's changed to 'discussioin' then the confrontational attitude wouldn't be encouraged so much right from the start of a discussion. Just an idea!l

I'm actually suggesting that a couple of posters here have gone right off the deep end with their abuse and insulting manners. Maybe they would have started off in a more sane and controlled manner if the notion of denial hadn't been encouraged.

Barring personal feelings and experiences that relate to that, due to the holocaust, there's no reason why we can't all be more respectful of each others opinions. As I said before, the paranoia over even having a discussion on this section is so thick it could be cut with a knife.

Agree with my suggestion or not, this is my plea for better manners and more civil discussion. I have to say that I'm not interested in continuing with this sort of dismal atmosphere on this forum.

If we do continue then can we continue with a discussion on 'obnoxious behavior'?
I think will just encourage much of the same. Why don’t you just let us know what you want to talk about, let us know what you believe and let us know how you came to your beliefs. From what I can tell you agree with Mark Weber, is that right?
In that debate with Shermer, Mark Weber made some points that weren't disputed by Shermer because they were correct. I give Shermer credit for the way he handled his side of the debate because he was honest, albeit sometimes attempting to excuse 'lies and exaggerations' as not being important to overall knowledge we have of the holocaust. Unfortunately, Shermer didn't come prepared and so I think we've about reached agreement that Weber won the debate hands down.

One curious comment you made is that you don't hate Shermer. Can you explain what that means? Also, you alluded to Shermer failing to hold his own and you appeared to be critical of him for that reason. Isn't that a little unfair when the bulk of the conversation was about 'lies and exaggerations', as you might have noticed.

I'm suggesting that we now get into talking about OBNOXIOUS BEHAVIOR and I'm leaving myself open to civil discussion that includes constructive criticism. The obnoxious behavior of the others needs to stop now in my opinion. I'm not willing to suffer it much longer. I'll simple declare myself the winner of the debate by default, if that's the best the others can do.

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:44 pm

montgomery wrote: In that debate with Shermer, Mark Weber made some points that weren't disputed by Shermer because they were correct. I give Shermer credit for the way he handled his side of the debate because he was honest, albeit sometimes attempting to excuse 'lies and exaggerations' as not being important to overall knowledge we have of the holocaust.
Because (and I’m taking a stab at this) Shermer looks at as not important to what we know about the Holocaust. I feel the same way. Just because a higher number was given at one point and then lowered doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen. It just means that research cleared things up. Just because at one point steam or electricity was mentioned and then new information came to light doesn’t mean that gassings didn’t take place. It just means that new information made the old irrelevant.
This isn’t an “either or” proposition. One doesn’t cancel the other. There are very few true absolutes.
Unfortunately, Shermer didn't come prepared and so I think we've about reached agreement that Weber won the debate hands down.
He did? What I would say is that Shermer is not an expert on the subject and he did the best he could. My perception of Weber is colored by the fact that I’ve seen and heard the same arguments before and I am not impressed by them.
One curious comment you made is that you don't hate Shermer. Can you explain what that means?
D-H said that.
Also, you alluded to Shermer failing to hold his own and you appeared to be critical of him for that reason.
He appeared awkward and nervous. Also some of the things he brought up (like Himmler’s speech) are disputed by deniers as either a misrepresentation of what Himmler said or an accusation of outright forgery.
Isn't that a little unfair when the bulk of the conversation was about 'lies and exaggerations', as you might have noticed.
The problem is that “lies and exaggerations” are what deniers focus on. Weber made a point of this in the first part of his presentation.
So, just as example let’s look at victim, eyewitness and perpetrator testimony. I look at victim or eyewitness testimony differently. Often there is no context to what they see, they only see what they see by accident or what the Germans allow them to see. More important are testimonies from perpetrators because they have context and help fill in blanks. Even better is when all of this is backed by some type of documentation.

There is also a vast difference between types of testimony. Someone who is by the gas chamber daily or who works on or in them frequently is very important. They can really fil in details that a casual observer misses.

I discard useless things like diamond pooping or someone who thought they got into a gas chamber and actually took a shower instead. But you also have to look someone who claims they got a shower instead of the gas differently. They might make a mistake about that but they could be a valuable witness detailing things about the camp.

It’s worth sharing this bit by Laurence Rees:

“I have written elsewhere, in detail, of how we approached this difficult task2 and of the way in which, for instance, we checked wherever possible that each interviewee’s story was consistent with documents of the period. It was a long and laborious process, and if at the end of it we had any misgivings about the authenticity of a potential interviewee’s testimony then we never recorded the interview.”
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:07 am

btw I recalled where Sergey Romanov summarized the problems with Leuchter recently: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... otleuchter

I should think that everyone posting here with the exception of Code Name: Mozart will agree with Sergey’s observation that “Leuchter is so outdated even by the denier standards that it's always weird to see him brought up ... as if he still had any relevance.”

My personal hope, er pipedream is for improved and updated trolling from Mozart.
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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:43 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
montgomery wrote: In that debate with Shermer, Mark Weber made some points that weren't disputed by Shermer because they were correct. I give Shermer credit for the way he handled his side of the debate because he was honest, albeit sometimes attempting to excuse 'lies and exaggerations' as not being important to overall knowledge we have of the holocaust.
Yes, I agree.
Because (and I’m taking a stab at this) Shermer looks at as not important to what we know about the Holocaust. I feel the same way. Just because a higher number was given at one point and then lowered doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen. It just means that research cleared things up. Just because at one point steam or electricity was mentioned and then new information came to light doesn’t mean that gassings didn’t take place. It just means that new information made the old irrelevant.
No, I don't agree. The lies and exaggerations were very damaging to the entire story and can't be just brushed aside as unimportant. Also, I'm fully aware of Shermer's tactic as you have explained it.
This isn’t an “either or” proposition. One doesn’t cancel the other. There are very few true absolutes.
I would suggest it does and I know of no other debate or debaters that can maintain their credibility if they expect opponents to accept that explanation. And thank you for so far getting right into the meat of the discussion!
Unfortunately, Shermer didn't come prepared and so I think we've about reached agreement that Weber won the debate hands down.
He did? What I would say is that Shermer is not an expert on the subject and he did the best he could. My perception of Weber is colored by the fact that I’ve seen and heard the same arguments before and I am not impressed by them.
I'm o.k. with your explanation on Shermer's performance. As rational grownups we can agree on the obvious.
One curious comment you made is that you don't hate Shermer. Can you explain what that means?
D-H said that.
I'll accept that on good faith.
Also, you alluded to Shermer failing to hold his own and you appeared to be critical of him for that reason.
He appeared awkward and nervous. Also some of the things he brought up (like Himmler’s speech) are disputed by deniers as either a misrepresentation of what Himmler said or an accusation of outright forgery.
Frankly, I doubt that any other debater could have done a better job. Both sides can quote volumes which could be good evidence or bad. It's separating the wheat from the chaff. Something you might not be taking into account is that the Weber side has a huge abundance of lies and exaggerations from which to draw. That's the stuff we have just come to agreement on and which you think can be just cancelled out. Shermer or any other debater can't contend with that! Maybe that's the reason there are no other debates?
Isn't that a little unfair when the bulk of the conversation was about 'lies and exaggerations', as you might have noticed.
The problem is that “lies and exaggerations” are what deniers focus on. Weber made a point of this in the first part of his presentation.
So, just as example let’s look at victim, eyewitness and perpetrator testimony. I look at victim or eyewitness testimony differently. Often there is no context to what they see, they only see what they see by accident or what the Germans allow them to see. More important are testimonies from perpetrators because they have context and help fill in blanks. Even better is when all of this is backed by some type of documentation.
I'm fully aware of your position on that but I don't accept it. Especially on the 'perps' who may have been forced to give faulty evidence. The old evidence, or more correctly, all the evidence, hangs around your necks like the albatross. Respectfully and not meant as an insult to you.
There is also a vast difference between types of testimony. Someone who is by the gas chamber daily or who works on or in them frequently is very important. They can really fil in details that a casual observer misses.

I discard useless things like diamond pooping or someone who thought they got into a gas chamber and actually took a shower instead. But you also have to look someone who claims they got a shower instead of the gas differently. They might make a mistake about that but they could be a valuable witness detailing things about the camp.
My point is again, I don't consider that you have the liberty to accept and discard what you choose.
It’s worth sharing this bit by Laurence Rees:

“I have written elsewhere, in detail, of how we approached this difficult task2 and of the way in which, for instance, we checked wherever possible that each interviewee’s story was consistent with documents of the period. It was a long and laborious process, and if at the end of it we had any misgivings about the authenticity of a potential interviewee’s testimony then we never recorded the interview.”
You've made that point several times. Unfortunately that regimen being suggested wasn't adhered to completely. Thank you for your polite and rational argument!

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:47 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:btw I recalled where Sergey Romanov summarized the problems with Leuchter recently: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... otleuchter

I should think that everyone posting here with the exception of Code Name: Mozart will agree with Sergey’s observation that “Leuchter is so outdated even by the denier standards that it's always weird to see him brought up ... as if he still had any relevance.”

My personal hope, er pipedream is for improved and updated trolling from Mozart.
Maybe my replies to JeffK will illustrate to you that proper manners can result in opponents being polite and civil to each other and then something can be accomplished?

Or would you rather persist with the code name Mozart and the rest of that crap?

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:00 pm

Still can’t come up with anything I see
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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:16 pm

montgomery wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
montgomery wrote: In that debate with Shermer, Mark Weber made some points that weren't disputed by Shermer because they were correct. I give Shermer credit for the way he handled his side of the debate because he was honest, albeit sometimes attempting to excuse 'lies and exaggerations' as not being important to overall knowledge we have of the holocaust.
Yes, I agree.
Because (and I’m taking a stab at this) Shermer looks at as not important to what we know about the Holocaust. I feel the same way. Just because a higher number was given at one point and then lowered doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen. It just means that research cleared things up. Just because at one point steam or electricity was mentioned and then new information came to light doesn’t mean that gassings didn’t take place. It just means that new information made the old irrelevant.
No, I don't agree. The lies and exaggerations were very damaging to the entire story and can't be just brushed aside as unimportant. Also, I'm fully aware of Shermer's tactic as you have explained it.
This isn’t an “either or” proposition. One doesn’t cancel the other. There are very few true absolutes.
I would suggest it does and I know of no other debate or debaters that can maintain their credibility if they expect opponents to accept that explanation. And thank you for so far getting right into the meat of the discussion!
Unfortunately, Shermer didn't come prepared and so I think we've about reached agreement that Weber won the debate hands down.
He did? What I would say is that Shermer is not an expert on the subject and he did the best he could. My perception of Weber is colored by the fact that I’ve seen and heard the same arguments before and I am not impressed by them.
I'm o.k. with your explanation on Shermer's performance. As rational grownups we can agree on the obvious.
One curious comment you made is that you don't hate Shermer. Can you explain what that means?
D-H said that.
I'll accept that on good faith.
Also, you alluded to Shermer failing to hold his own and you appeared to be critical of him for that reason.
He appeared awkward and nervous. Also some of the things he brought up (like Himmler’s speech) are disputed by deniers as either a misrepresentation of what Himmler said or an accusation of outright forgery.
Frankly, I doubt that any other debater could have done a better job. Both sides can quote volumes which could be good evidence or bad. It's separating the wheat from the chaff. Something you might not be taking into account is that the Weber side has a huge abundance of lies and exaggerations from which to draw. That's the stuff we have just come to agreement on and which you think can be just cancelled out. Shermer or any other debater can't contend with that! Maybe that's the reason there are no other debates?
Isn't that a little unfair when the bulk of the conversation was about 'lies and exaggerations', as you might have noticed.
The problem is that “lies and exaggerations” are what deniers focus on. Weber made a point of this in the first part of his presentation.
So, just as example let’s look at victim, eyewitness and perpetrator testimony. I look at victim or eyewitness testimony differently. Often there is no context to what they see, they only see what they see by accident or what the Germans allow them to see. More important are testimonies from perpetrators because they have context and help fill in blanks. Even better is when all of this is backed by some type of documentation.
I'm fully aware of your position on that but I don't accept it. Especially on the 'perps' who may have been forced to give faulty evidence. The old evidence, or more correctly, all the evidence, hangs around your necks like the albatross. Respectfully and not meant as an insult to you.
There is also a vast difference between types of testimony. Someone who is by the gas chamber daily or who works on or in them frequently is very important. They can really fil in details that a casual observer misses.

I discard useless things like diamond pooping or someone who thought they got into a gas chamber and actually took a shower instead. But you also have to look someone who claims they got a shower instead of the gas differently. They might make a mistake about that but they could be a valuable witness detailing things about the camp.
My point is again, I don't consider that you have the liberty to accept and discard what you choose.
It’s worth sharing this bit by Laurence Rees:

“I have written elsewhere, in detail, of how we approached this difficult task2 and of the way in which, for instance, we checked wherever possible that each interviewee’s story was consistent with documents of the period. It was a long and laborious process, and if at the end of it we had any misgivings about the authenticity of a potential interviewee’s testimony then we never recorded the interview.”
You've made that point several times. Unfortunately that regimen being suggested wasn't adhered to completely. Thank you for your polite and rational argument!
Maybe this will help:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... r.html?m=1

It’s a valid point to raise, what is fact, fiction, distortion or lying?

Irene Zisblatt is a favorite among deniers for some improbable claims she made. Dr. Joachim Neander helps break it down on how actual historians treat testimony like this.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:33 pm

I get your point. There's no denying that is your point as you have made it several times.

I'll just say that it's your cross to bear. And I will further say that there is very little honest attempts being made to throw out all the chaff. Attitudes toward even having a discussion on the 'chaff' have been met with suggestions that there 'is' no chaff. As well as being atrociously childish and bad mannered.

I hesitate to read that link completely because it appears at first glance just an effort to make the same point over and over again. And I say over and over again, it is the holocaust promoters' cross to bear.

Please don't despair over my answers. My method and my careful approach is fixed in stone. Stat.mech. and others insisting on getting some 'holocaust denial' out of me are doomed to failure.

If you wish to expound more on bringing out what I'm calling the 'chaff', then do so. I'll rely on your knowledge to do that. I think what might be very helpful would be a closer examination, in your own words, of examples of the wheat being more credible to accept than that mentioned 'chaff'. That is something I wouldn't brush off but find worth some answers.

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:12 pm

montgomery wrote:I hesitate to read that link completely because it appears at first glance just an effort to make the same point over and over again. And I say over and over again, it is the holocaust promoters' cross to bear.
Better not read it, it is from Holocaust promoters! In fact, be careful which links you click on. Some of them contain thoughts and evidence you seem allergic to.
montgomery wrote:Please don't despair over my answers.
Despair? LOL, they are good clean fun. A laugh riot. Keep 'em coming.
montgomery wrote:My method and my careful approach is fixed in stone.
I am beginning to think that stone is also what your head is filled with.
montgomery wrote:If you wish to expound more on bringing out what I'm calling the 'chaff', then do so.
It's kind of up to you at some point to expound on your own claims. Instead of hiding behind decorum and investigations. Although at this point I'd hate you to interrupt your stream of pompous idiocy.
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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:14 pm

montgomery wrote:
If you wish to expound more on bringing out what I'm calling the 'chaff', then do so. I'll rely on your knowledge to do that. I think what might be very helpful would be a closer examination, in your own words, of examples of the wheat being more credible to accept than that mentioned 'chaff'. That is something I wouldn't brush off but find worth some answers.
Why don’t you give me an idea about what you want to examine?
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:18 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
montgomery wrote:
If you wish to expound more on bringing out what I'm calling the 'chaff', then do so. I'll rely on your knowledge to do that. I think what might be very helpful would be a closer examination, in your own words, of examples of the wheat being more credible to accept than that mentioned 'chaff'. That is something I wouldn't brush off but find worth some answers.
Why don’t you give me an idea about what you want to examine?
I want you to take some examples of old information that has been discared and replaced with new information. And I want it in your own words so I won't have to read through volumes of evidence, which becomes a real problem with the amount of time I have for this forum.

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:20 pm

And I want a pony.
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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:24 pm

And I'm saying jeff, that in my humble opinion, your side of the debate owns all the bad information and can't just easily disown it. I hope you don't consider that to be unreasonable.

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Denying-History » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:46 pm

“Your side of the debate”

Now this first off doesn’t exist. The 1990’s are over.

“owns all the bad information”

Krege report ring a bell?
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:06 pm

Denying-History wrote:“Your side of the debate”

Now this first off doesn’t exist. The 1990’s are over.

“owns all the bad information”

Krege report ring a bell?
Trying to figure out how he knows that as earlier to day he said he is going to have to evaluate each piece of evidence individually before reaching definitive conclusions. A statement he later contradicted in another post wherein he said he wanted those engaged in the discussion to supply the evidence as he doesn't have time enough to devote to the forum (Ya know, other than all that time he spends lecturing others on forum ettiquette, demands for submission to his personal rules of ettiquette, and "investigations" of banned and forum members, some sort of weird, subjective test of national allegiances, and the usual garden variety of nonresponsive BS common to a pedestrian internet forum troll of the lowest quality.).

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Denying-History » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:09 pm

He wouldn’t. Even after he’s “evaluated both sides” I’m pretty sure he will be posting the same way he is now.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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