Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:38 pm

Well, you know me....I’m a sucker for the punch line.

:D
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Denying-History » Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:53 pm

Lol I have a feeling that this may be one of our twitter “friends”. Not calling it 100% but I’m getting that hunch.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:07 pm

I don’t think any of them would dare pop in here. Could be though, need more to see.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:07 pm

It seems that it will take time . . . LOL
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by montgomery » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:20 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I don’t think any of them would dare pop in here. Could be though, need more to see.
Was he referring to me as one of the twitter friends? If so then what does that mean? As for twitter, i've never bothered. Not facebook or any of the other ones either.

I'll wait for your answer on Leuchter's credibility. Or ability to take samples?

I sense that some people are having some difficulty with my debating style. Is it new or just more of the same old, same old?

I hope you appreciate that I'm being very cautious for the reasons I've stated of being not as well informed as some/most? I will say though, I'm far beyond having the ability to separate nonsense from truth.

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:09 am

montgomery wrote:
Was he referring to me as one of the twitter friends? If so then what does that mean? As for twitter, i've never bothered. Not facebook or any of the other ones either.
Good for you, it’s turning into a distraction.
I'll wait for your answer on Leuchter's credibility. Or ability to take samples?
Please see this comment:

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter
Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:39 pm

First of all, why don’t we all take a moment to relax?

Montgomery, to answer your question, was Leuchter qualified to take the samples?


No more than you or I.

My issue with Leuchter was he never bothered to look at the available materials in the archive. I don’t know if Leuchter can speak or read German (I can muddle through some German in a book or on a page but can’t speak it) but I don’t see that as a barrier. Zundel could have made an interpreter available to him. Leuchter also never consulted Dow to figure out how ZB works.

Essentially he popped in for a few days, chipped away at the remains of the gas chambers and took off. AFAIK he never bothered to learn anything about the history of the camp.

Another issue I have is that Leuchter is making assumptions based upon what he thinks a gas chamber should look like or operate. He is transposing this onto buildings built (at that time) forty years prior. He is also making the assumption that an American gas chamber built for one person should operate like one built for a much larger group of people.

I will finish the movie tonight and give further thoughts.
I sense that some people are having some difficulty with my debating style. Is it new or just more of the same old, same old?
I’m waiting for you to give me some indication of your level of knowledge with this subject. I am willing to finish the movie and then proceed.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by montgomery » Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:26 am

I don't find your answer on Leuchter's credibility satisfactory. I take it as just another crude attempt to attack the messenger. Or, if you like, destroy his credibility for the greater cause. I consider that dishonest. And I told you that it's not realistic to say that we, you and I, have the experience, expertise, or credibility that Leuchter had/has. You're not willing to grant me that much so I can clearly see that you're not going to grant me anything that reflects the truth. (I'm always open to hearing a more reasonable position from you)

Disclaimer: The holocaust happened. Determining just how it happened seems to be a work in progress.

And that will be a wrap for me. I'll read the posts here out of interest and comment further when somebody posts something that is worthy of my comments.

For now, let's let that sit and simmer on the back burner to see how it plays to the peanut gallery.

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:14 am

montgomery wrote:I don't find your answer on Leuchter's credibility satisfactory.
So, you essentially want me to simply agree with you? Is that how this works?
I take it as just another crude attempt to attack the messenger.
Why is he qualified? Why don’t you explain it to me?

Or, if you like, destroy his credibility for the greater cause.
What credibility does he have?
I consider that dishonest.
That’s nice. I don’t care. I think I’ve been patient up to this point but this feels personal. I don’t know Fred Leuchter personally so this is not personal. But he’s not an engineer, architect or chemist. Period. Frankly you’d be better off bringing up Germar Rudolf, he’s at least a chemist.
Leuchter DID NOT take the time to research the history of the camp, go to the archives or even look at ZB. This disqualifies him as some “expert.”
And I told you that it's not realistic to say that we, you and I, have the experience, expertise, or credibility that Leuchter had/has.
Really? I’ve spent over five years on this subject. I’ve read books on Auschwitz, looked over documents dealing with gas chambers, read up on ZB. Does this make me an expert on Auschwitz? Hell no. But I’ve done more than Leuchter has.
You're not willing to grant me that much so I can clearly see that you're not going to grant me anything that reflects the truth. (I'm always open to hearing a more reasonable position from you)
So, the reasonable position is to blindly agree with you? I’ve laid out my objections, deal with it.
And that will be a wrap for me.
‘Kay, bye then.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:14 am

I’m still going to finish the movie and give my thoughts.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Balmoral95 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:21 am

It's hell arguing with a self-appointed superior intellect who cries like a bitch that it's "all unfair" WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.

Kinda sounds like "Blake" but less menstrual, slightly.

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by montgomery » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:37 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
montgomery wrote:I don't find your answer on Leuchter's credibility satisfactory.
So, you essentially want me to simply agree with you? Is that how this works?
I take it as just another crude attempt to attack the messenger.
Why is he qualified? Why don’t you explain it to me?

Or, if you like, destroy his credibility for the greater cause.
What credibility does he have?
I consider that dishonest.
That’s nice. I don’t care. I think I’ve been patient up to this point but this feels personal. I don’t know Fred Leuchter personally so this is not personal. But he’s not an engineer, architect or chemist. Period. Frankly you’d be better off bringing up Germar Rudolf, he’s at least a chemist.
Leuchter DID NOT take the time to research the history of the camp, go to the archives or even look at ZB. This disqualifies him as some “expert.”
And I told you that it's not realistic to say that we, you and I, have the experience, expertise, or credibility that Leuchter had/has.
Really? I’ve spent over five years on this subject. I’ve read books on Auschwitz, looked over documents dealing with gas chambers, read up on ZB. Does this make me an expert on Auschwitz? Hell no. But I’ve done more than Leuchter has.
You're not willing to grant me that much so I can clearly see that you're not going to grant me anything that reflects the truth. (I'm always open to hearing a more reasonable position from you)
So, the reasonable position is to blindly agree with you? I’ve laid out my objections, deal with it.
And that will be a wrap for me.
‘Kay, bye then.
I told you that I'm not saying goodbye. I'll continue to read the thread and comment when a comment is deserved. Otherwise, you have my position. Your unreasonable position left me no choice. {I'm always open to you reconsidering)

Maybe somebody else will come along and grant me the prerequisites. I think it's a pretty reasonable minimum to expect.

Balmoral and stat.mech are good possibilities. They both need somebody to whom they can be abusive and insulting.

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:55 am

montgomery wrote:
I told you that I'm not saying goodbye. I'll continue to read the thread and comment when a comment is deserved. Otherwise, you have my position. Your unreasonable position left me no choice. {I'm always open to you reconsidering)
Why is my position unreasonable? Why should I reconsider?
Maybe somebody else will come along and grant me the prerequisites. I think it's a pretty reasonable minimum to expect.
Good luck with that.
Balmoral and stat.mech are good possibilities. They both need somebody to whom they can be abusive and insulting.
You want someone to be abusive to you?
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by montgomery » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:10 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
montgomery wrote:
I told you that I'm not saying goodbye. I'll continue to read the thread and comment when a comment is deserved. Otherwise, you have my position. Your unreasonable position left me no choice. {I'm always open to you reconsidering)
Why is my position unreasonable? Why should I reconsider?
Maybe somebody else will come along and grant me the prerequisites. I think it's a pretty reasonable minimum to expect.
Good luck with that.
Balmoral and stat.mech are good possibilities. They both need somebody to whom they can be abusive and insulting.
You want someone to be abusive to you?
Post noted. Leave it with me and I might be able to find a way to allow this discussion to continue, with my participation.

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Balmoral95 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:18 am

"allow"

Get stuffed.

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Balmoral95 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:12 am

I'll "allow" this, stupid troll:

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=15695


Eat shite and die.

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:34 am

Zündel mentions that Leuchter took a week to convince himself that the buildings weren’t gas chambers. Guess when you don’t bother to do any real research it’s easy.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:34 am

Leuchter:
“It isn’t what I found, it was what I didn’t find.”
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:37 am

Leuchter:
“It doesn’t make much sense to execute a force of slave labor.”

Paraphrase
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:39 am

LOL,
“The buildings haven’t changed since 1940, 1941...”

Dumbass, Kremas II, III, IV and V didn’t exist until 1943 (completed) and Bunkers I and II 1942.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:45 am

Van Pelt makes an excellent point that the bricks from the Kremas were scavenged after the war to build/rebuild the farmhouses in the area. Again, something Leuchter didn’t know.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:49 am

LOL, Leuchter thinks he got a sample from a column that carried ZB into the chamber. No, dumbass, those columns were removed.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:52 am

Stat Mech, Van Pelt mentions that 500,000 people were killed in Krema II. I don’t know what he is basing that on.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:56 am

Leuchter asks, “Why didn’t they just shoot them?”

Again, Leuchter keeps showing his ignorance. The Germans started by shooting them and moved to gassing when shooting became problematic.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:57 am

Leuchter:
“Why didn’t they blow them up?”

Tried that, didn’t work out well.

“Why didn’t they seal them in a mine shaft?”

All of them???? Also, yes, that was tried.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:01 am

Leuchter admitted on camera that the company that tested the samples were not told what they were or where they came from.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:24 am

The company that did the testing said that they did the wrong test to determine if cyanide was in the samples.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:23 am

So, finally finished.

Except for some overly dramatic moments it was pretty good.

As for Leuchter, my opinion did not change. He spent no time in the archives and he didn’t understand the history. He didn’t bother to tell the lab testing the samples what they were for.

I don’t see any reason to take his results seriously, frankly at this point I’m surprised anyone takes him seriously.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by montgomery » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:02 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:So, finally finished.

Except for some overly dramatic moments it was pretty good.

As for Leuchter, my opinion did not change. He spent no time in the archives and he didn’t understand the history. He didn’t bother to tell the lab testing the samples what they were for.

I don’t see any reason to take his results seriously, frankly at this point I’m surprised anyone takes him seriously.
I'ms surprised that you liked it. What was there to like? I can't say I liked it at all but I found it informative if I thought carefully about all that was discovered.

My impression is that you've learned quite a bit from it, judging by your comments. Such as:
“It doesn’t make much sense to execute a force of slave labor.”
Consider this an experiment by me in order to determine the attitudes and motives of those who spend their time pursuing this topic day after day, year after year. That which motivates one is mostly common to all.

No, I'm not a holocaust denier. Nobody in their right mind will deny facts, and nobody in their right mind will deny obvious impossibilities that defy logic and modern science. I invite you all to continue on this thread in order to reveal your true personalities and that which motivates you. Especially balmoral! Thanks all.

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Denying-History » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:24 pm

Does anyone remember that time Leuchter lied about working on a prison gas chamber?
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:34 pm

montgomery wrote: I'ms surprised that you liked it.
What was there to like? I can't say I liked it at all but I found it informative if I thought carefully about all that was discovered.
It was fairly well made, I learned some things about Leuchter I didn’t know and it showed me how he collected his samples. What’s not to like?
My impression is that you've learned quite a bit from it, judging by your comments. Such as: “It doesn’t make much sense to execute a force of slave labor.”
That actually was not news to me, deniers have made this excuse before. The counter argument is rather simple, the Germans only murdered those who they didn’t think could work. This included the elderly, younger children and their mothers, the sick, etc. those capable of working were selected to do so and either died of “natural causes” or murdered when they could no longer work. Or when their usefulness ended. Yes, there were anomalies in that system and it wasn’t always exact.
Consider this an experiment by me in order to determine the attitudes and motives of those who spend their time pursuing this topic day after day, year after year. That which motivates one is mostly common to all.
I’m not a lab rat. If you want to discuss this subject, ask questions, learn new things, etc. then we can do so. If you want to know why I do this read this:
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... +this+mess


No, I'm not a holocaust denier.
Good to know.
Nobody in their right mind will deny facts,
Absolutely.
and nobody in their right mind will deny obvious impossibilities that defy logic and modern science.
Right. Maybe you can explain this better.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by montgomery » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:56 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
montgomery wrote: I'ms surprised that you liked it.
What was there to like? I can't say I liked it at all but I found it informative if I thought carefully about all that was discovered.
It was fairly well made, I learned some things about Leuchter I didn’t know and it showed me how he collected his samples. What’s not to like?
My impression is that you've learned quite a bit from it, judging by your comments. Such as: “It doesn’t make much sense to execute a force of slave labor.”
That actually was not news to me, deniers have made this excuse before. The counter argument is rather simple, the Germans only murdered those who they didn’t think could work. This included the elderly, younger children and their mothers, the sick, etc. those capable of working were selected to do so and either died of “natural causes” or murdered when they could no longer work. Or when their usefulness ended. Yes, there were anomalies in that system and it wasn’t always exact.
Consider this an experiment by me in order to determine the attitudes and motives of those who spend their time pursuing this topic day after day, year after year. That which motivates one is mostly common to all.
I’m not a lab rat. If you want to discuss this subject, ask questions, learn new things, etc. then we can do so. If you want to know why I do this read this:
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... +this+mess


No, I'm not a holocaust denier.
Good to know.
Nobody in their right mind will deny facts,
Absolutely.
and nobody in their right mind will deny obvious impossibilities that defy logic and modern science.
Right. Maybe you can explain this better.
Thanks for your reply. I've found a way to continue this conversation on terms that are suitable to me. So as I told you:

Nobody in their right mind denies facts.
and
Nobody in their right mind accepts impossibilities that defy logic and science.

I don't consider any of you lab rats and especially not you. You seem to me to be the most well mannered of the lot so far. I would just say that I have a wide cross section of attitudes and personalities to hear from. Even balmoral and Deny-history are worthwhile subjects. In a way even moreso. Stat.mech I think, is not the real personality but that remains to be discovered. I'm much more interested in whether or not any or all of you can remain in your 'right' minds? There is so much to learn from people who will stoop to lies and exaggerations in order to besmirch the memory of the holocaust. I invite you to explore some of those lies with me.

I won't abandon the thread. I suspect others will first. I detect very little sincerity in what they're saying.

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:18 pm

montgomery wrote:
Thanks for your reply. I've found a way to continue this conversation on terms that are suitable to me.
Good. I’m glad you found a way to continue.

So as I told you:

Nobody in their right mind denies facts.
and
Nobody in their right mind accepts impossibilities that defy logic and science.
Yes. Can you elaborate on this?

I don't consider any of you lab rats and especially not you. You seem to me to be the most well mannered of the lot so far.
I am a fairly nice fellow.
I'm much more interested in whether or not any or all of you can remain in your 'right' minds?
I actively combat Holocaust denial on places like Twitter and I’m a member of both RODOH and CODOH. How much in my right mind could I be? Let’s face it, it’s a weird hobby.
:D
There is so much to learn from people who will stoop to lies and exaggerations in order to besmirch the memory of the holocaust. I invite you to explore some of those lies with me.
Absolutely. Now, it’s a Saturday and I’m getting ready to get started on some stuff so I’ll be dropping in and out.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:20 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
montgomery wrote:My impression is that you've learned quite a bit from it, judging by your comments. Such as: “It doesn’t make much sense to execute a force of slave labor.”
That actually was not news to me, deniers have made this excuse before.
I thought this one had already established for us that he doesn't know much about the topic. He needn't pepper his posts with reminders. We got it.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by montgomery » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:28 pm

I have read your post. Yes, I could elaborate on that but no, I won't. It's going to be up to all of you to suggest instances of lies and exaggerations, as opposed to facts that are not at odds with science and logic. I've explained to Stat.Mech on another thread. Find it and read it if you're interested.

This will aid us in separating the wheat from the chaff, in respect to posters who take part in this section. For example, separating the spammers such as balmoral and Denying-history from the others. Then we will be able to place some others with those two perhaps, based on their behavior. By the same token, finding just who is genuine and honest?

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by montgomery » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:32 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
montgomery wrote:My impression is that you've learned quite a bit from it, judging by your comments. Such as: “It doesn’t make much sense to execute a force of slave labor.”
That actually was not news to me, deniers have made this excuse before.
I thought this one had already established for us that he doesn't know much about the topic. He needn't pepper his posts with reminders. We got it.
Keep the personal attacks coming! I'll list them under your name as to your credit/discredit!

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Denying-History » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:38 pm

>personal attacks.

Lol
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:49 pm

montgomery wrote:Keep the personal attacks coming! I'll list them under your name as to your credit/discredit!
You have me confused with someone who gives a {!#%@}.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by montgomery » Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:15 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
montgomery wrote:Keep the personal attacks coming! I'll list them under your name as to your credit/discredit!
You have me confused with someone who gives a {!#%@}.
You're right! In that I actually did think you seriously cared about the topic of this section of the forum. Now it's pretty clear that you aren't the least concerned about preserving the image your avatar promotes.

You don't come off as somebody who is interested in learning something from your reading, as much as you are more interested in reinforcing your established beliefs and illusions.

I'll be looking for indications of that in your lists of suggested reading material.

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:46 pm

“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Balmoral95 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:43 pm

Denying-History wrote:Does anyone remember that time Leuchter lied about working on a prison gas chamber?
Sure, but then again what didn't he lie about? :mrgreen: