Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

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Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:37 am

Alright, started watching this. My initial impression:
Christ, Leuchter is such a weasel.

A weasel with a Bastan accent. Like the flying Rizoli brothers if they were weasels.

OK, that makes sense, Leuchter is frequently misquoted with the whole “it’s difficult to take a life” but what he actually means it’s difficult to take a life painlessly without causing a lot of damage.

Being electrocuted seems like a really shitty way to go.

He did replace the Tennessee prison electric chair.

Ok, first comment. Going to shut this down so I don’t keep droning.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:40 am

Hhhhhhmmmmm, Leuchter says a gas chamber will kill in 3-4 minutes.
18:46 mark
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Balmoral95 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:47 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Alright, started watching this. My initial impression:
Christ, Leuchter is such a weasel.

A weasel with a Bastan accent. Like the flying Rizoli brothers if they were weasels.

OK, that makes sense, Leuchter is frequently misquoted with the whole “it’s difficult to take a life” but what he actually means it’s difficult to take a life painlessly without causing a lot of damage.

Being electrocuted seems like a really shitty way to go.

He did replace the Tennessee prison electric chair.

Ok, first comment. Going to shut this down so I don’t keep droning.
He's a lying charlatan just like Krege and Rudolph. nothing more, nothing less... Unfortunately Krege never ended up with legal consequences, although that's mostly due to his being a disappearing pussy.

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:09 am

LOL
Still waiting on Krege’s report, it’s only been almost 20 years.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:10 am

Ah, Fred just called himself an engineer.

Needs to correct that and say “I’m playing at being an engineer!!!!”
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Balmoral95 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:16 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Ah, Fred just called himself an engineer.

Needs to correct that and say “I’m playing at being an engineer!!!!”
Sure... and Dolfie was an architect and artiste. :mrgreen:

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by montgomery » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:50 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Ah, Fred just called himself an engineer.

Needs to correct that and say “I’m playing at being an engineer!!!!”
A piece on whether or not Leuchter was an engineer. https://codoh.com/library/document/5278/?lang=en

From my POV, I don't think I want to take a position on him being an engineer. His recognized credentials would be more important. This article certainly makes claims of him being an expert with credentials, while other will say to the contrary. The article actually voices the contrary position, as well as the pro position.

And so we're met with a question already that could actually shut down this discussion. That being, Leuchter didn't know anything about what he was talking about.

Do you have an opinion on that question before we get further into the discussion?

(I'm supposing you have already watched the film if you're here on this thread commenting on Leuchter's credentials?)

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by montgomery » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:55 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Alright, started watching this. My initial impression:
Christ, Leuchter is such a weasel.

A weasel with a Bastan accent. Like the flying Rizoli brothers if they were weasels.

OK, that makes sense, Leuchter is frequently misquoted with the whole “it’s difficult to take a life” but what he actually means it’s difficult to take a life painlessly without causing a lot of damage.

Being electrocuted seems like a really shitty way to go.

He did replace the Tennessee prison electric chair.

Ok, first comment. Going to shut this down so I don’t keep droning.
Fwiw, and beside any pertinent point here, I'm personally opposed to the death penalty, and as well, I would suggest that anybody who dabbles in it as Leuchter did, could be called all sorts of derogatory names. But a weasel? I don't get the weasel connotation?

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Balmoral95 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:10 am

Plenty on the web for you to sort yourself out, dude...

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:14 am

montgomery wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Ah, Fred just called himself an engineer.

Needs to correct that and say “I’m playing at being an engineer!!!!”
A piece on whether or not Leuchter was an engineer. https://codoh.com/library/document/5278/?lang=en

From my POV, I don't think I want to take a position on him being an engineer. His recognized credentials would be more important. This article certainly makes claims of him being an expert with credentials, while other will say to the contrary. The article actually voices the contrary position, as well as the pro position.

And so we're met with a question already that could actually shut down this discussion. That being, Leuchter didn't know anything about what he was talking about.

Do you have an opinion on that question before we get further into the discussion?

(I'm supposing you have already watched the film if you're here on this thread commenting on Leuchter's credentials?)
I’m currently watching it.

From what I remember of Mr. Leuchter the judge in Zundel’s trial forced him to admit he wasn’t an engineer, didn’t have a degree or a certification.

Here’s where we get into the meat of things:
Leuchter never built or serviced a gas chamber. He designed one but it was never built (for Missouri).

In any case I’m going to watch a litte longer and then finish it tomorrow.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:14 am

montgomery wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Alright, started watching this. My initial impression:
Christ, Leuchter is such a weasel.

A weasel with a Bastan accent. Like the flying Rizoli brothers if they were weasels.

OK, that makes sense, Leuchter is frequently misquoted with the whole “it’s difficult to take a life” but what he actually means it’s difficult to take a life painlessly without causing a lot of damage.

Being electrocuted seems like a really shitty way to go.

He did replace the Tennessee prison electric chair.

Ok, first comment. Going to shut this down so I don’t keep droning.
Fwiw, and beside any pertinent point here, I'm personally opposed to the death penalty, and as well, I would suggest that anybody who dabbles in it as Leuchter did, could be called all sorts of derogatory names. But a weasel? I don't get the weasel connotation?
Bad joke. I have an odd sense of humor.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:17 am

Leuchter on Krema I:
“Some people think it was an air raid shelter, some people a morgue, some people a gas chamber..”

It was all three, dude. Though more properly a crematorium than a morgue.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:20 am

Van Pelt’s a little over dramatic.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:27 am

So, Leuchter is going on about what he thinks a gas chamber should have. If he had bothered to look at any of the materials available to him he would’ve known that Krema I did have a ventilation system and that ZB is explosive but not at the levels necessary to kill a human being.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:32 am

Van Pelt knows his stuff, though.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by montgomery » Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:11 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Ah, Fred just called himself an engineer.

Needs to correct that and say “I’m playing at being an engineer!!!!”
A piece on whether or not Leuchter was an engineer. https://codoh.com/library/document/5278/?lang=en

From my POV, I don't think I want to take a position on him being an engineer. His recognized credentials would be more important. This article certainly makes claims of him being an expert with credentials, while other will say to the contrary. The article actually voices the contrary position, as well as the pro position.

And so we're met with a question already that could actually shut down this discussion. That being, Leuchter didn't know anything about what he was talking about.

Do you have an opinion on that question before we get further into the discussion?

(I'm supposing you have already watched the film if you're here on this thread commenting on Leuchter's credentials?)
I’m currently watching it.

From what I remember of Mr. Leuchter the judge in Zundel’s trial forced him to admit he wasn’t an engineer, didn’t have a degree or a certification.

Here’s where we get into the meat of things:
Leuchter never built or serviced a gas chamber. He designed one but it was never built (for Missouri).

In any case I’m going to watch a litte longer and then finish it tomorrow.
I'm going to have to insist that you read over the link I posted: https://codoh.com/library/document/5278/?lang=en

Then tell me if you think that Leuchter did or did not have the credentials to declare himself an expert in his field, and to actually stand as an expert. I contend that he was, and was indeed accepted as the foremost expert in his field in the U.S. But if we can't reach agreement on that then I don't see any hope for coming to any conclusions.

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Balmoral95 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:27 am

So piss off back to Codoh since you won't get any sympathy here for your position. Very simple. You said it, we're done here.

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Denying-History » Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:00 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Hhhhhhmmmmm, Leuchter says a gas chamber will kill in 3-4 minutes.
18:46 mark
In more of a passing comment:
With electrocution, unconsciousness takes place in 1/240 part of a second. Gas chamber within three or four minutes, and with the gallows it doesn't matter because you're being dropped almost immediately after being brought onto the scaffold. None of the procedures require that somebody lay on a gurney for thirty-five minutes looking at a ceiling. You have to have the man immobile, he has to be unable to move or else he's going to move and damage his arm with the catheter. But you certainly can make it more comfortable. You could put him in a contoured chair like they have in a dentist office, that at least he'd be sitting up. You could give him a television, you could give him music, you could put some pictures on the wall. Rather than put him in a concrete room. That's not humane.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Denying-History » Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:06 am

montgomery wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Ah, Fred just called himself an engineer.

Needs to correct that and say “I’m playing at being an engineer!!!!”
A piece on whether or not Leuchter was an engineer. https://codoh.com/library/document/5278/?lang=en

From my POV, I don't think I want to take a position on him being an engineer. His recognized credentials would be more important. This article certainly makes claims of him being an expert with credentials, while other will say to the contrary. The article actually voices the contrary position, as well as the pro position.

And so we're met with a question already that could actually shut down this discussion. That being, Leuchter didn't know anything about what he was talking about.

Do you have an opinion on that question before we get further into the discussion?

(I'm supposing you have already watched the film if you're here on this thread commenting on Leuchter's credentials?)
I’m currently watching it.

From what I remember of Mr. Leuchter the judge in Zundel’s trial forced him to admit he wasn’t an engineer, didn’t have a degree or a certification.

Here’s where we get into the meat of things:
Leuchter never built or serviced a gas chamber. He designed one but it was never built (for Missouri).

In any case I’m going to watch a litte longer and then finish it tomorrow.
I'm going to have to insist that you read over the link I posted: https://codoh.com/library/document/5278/?lang=en

Then tell me if you think that Leuchter did or did not have the credentials to declare himself an expert in his field, and to actually stand as an expert. I contend that he was, and was indeed accepted as the foremost expert in his field in the U.S. But if we can't reach agreement on that then I don't see any hope for coming to any conclusions.
"I, Fred A. Leuchter, Jr...am not and never have been registered as a professional engineer..."
https://phdn.org/archives/www.mazal.org ... hter01.htm

Ill start considering him one, after you admit his sold a defective leathal injection machine to a prison. (Denying the Holocaust p. 172.)
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:46 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:A weasel with a Bastan accent. Like the flying Rizoli brothers if they were weasels.
Hey! Be careful, there are Red Sox fans amongst you . . . :)
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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:47 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:LOL
Still waiting on Krege’s report, it’s only been almost 20 years.
and about 10 years for the much heralded Fish Reporr . . .
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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:00 am

To a point made by Jeffk and Denying History above:
montgomery wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Ah, Fred just called himself an engineer.

Needs to correct that and say “I’m playing at being an engineer!!!!”
A piece on whether or not Leuchter was an engineer. https://codoh.com/library/document/5278/?lang=en

From my POV, I don't think I want to take a position on him being an engineer. His recognized credentials would be more important. This article certainly makes claims of him being an expert with credentials, while other will say to the contrary. The article actually voices the contrary position, as well as the pro position.
The Codoh piece IIRC is silent on this bit of evasive nonsense at the Zundel trial:
Q: Now, Mr. Leuchter, Mr. Christie, when he was reviewing your qualifications, said that, if my note is correct, you graduated from university in a field that entitles you to function as an engineer and you responded in the affirmative to that question?

A: Yes. I have a Bachelor of Arts degree.

Q: You graduated with a Bachelor of Arts degree?

A: Right.

Q: When?

A: You mean what year?

Q: What year?

A: 1964.

Q: 1964. And that's the only University degree you have?

A: That's correct.

Q: You don't have a Bachelor of Science degree?

A: No.

Q: You don't have a Master of Science degree; you don't have a Ph.D in science?

A: Correct.

Q: You don't have a degree in engineering?

A: That's correct.

Q: Do you belong to any suprevising disciplinary professional body?

A: I don't understand the question, counsellor.

Q: Well, do you belong to a governing body of engineers?

A: I -- governing body? I do not understand. Are you saying do I belong to any scientific societies?

Q: No, is there any body of engineers that supervises you and disciplines you in your engineering function?

A: No.
Leuchter in fact received a BA in history from Boston University, not an engineering, science, or technical degree.

Under cross-examination, he admitted that he didn't have an engineering degree, in contrast to his affirmative at the outset. The man comes across as incapable of making an honest, direct reply on this issue.

Contrary to the claim made in the Codoh piece that Leuchter admitted nothing, in the 1991 consent decree Leuchter stipulated that he had represented himself in different ways as "an engineer" when in fact he also declared in the decree that "I am not and never have been registered as a professional engineer with 'the Board' pursuant to M.G.L. C. 112, a. 81D-T" and promised that he would therefore "cease and desist" continuing to represent himself as an engineer. No amount of panicked spin from Codoh can change the substance of the decree (https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... agreement/).

Leuchter wasn't an engineer, he was a liar. And a weasel, actually.
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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Denying-History » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:17 am

Lol, I already quoted Leuchters 1991 admission, but yeah.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:49 am

Denying-History wrote:Lol, I already quoted Leuchters 1991 admission, but yeah.
Yes you did :) and you also linked to phdn for the decree. I just thought that the whole bit made rather amusing/revealing reading . . . and I think it shows that Jeffk was right to call the man a weasel.
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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:07 am

My first acquaintance with Mr. Leuchter comes from Nizkor:

http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/leu ... aq-22.html


Q: And what is your relationship with the operation of those facilities [i.e. gas chambers] in those two States [California and North Carolina]?

A: We consulted with both States, California primarily on a heart monitoring system to replace the older type mechanical diagraph stethoscope that's presently in use. We will be shipping to them shortly and installing a new heart monitor for both chairs in their gas chamber.

Q: You are consulted by the State, I understand?

A: Yes, Juan Vasquez.

Q: I see. And in North Carolina?

A: North Carolina. My discussions and work was with one Nathan Reise, and he had some work done by their maintenance personnel on their gas chamber two years ago, and they had a problem with the gasket on a door leaking. At which point, we discussed it with him and recommended remedial procedures to change the gas chamber.

Q: And he consults you in regard to those matters?

A: He does.

What do those two facilities have to say about the matter? First, the warden at San Quentin (California) responds:

"I can inform you, however, that San Quentin has not contracted with Fred A. Leuchter, Jr. for the installation of a heart monitoring system or for any other work." Signed: DANIEL B. Vasquez, Warden (California)

Next, we offer the comments from North Carolina prison officials:

"I discussed your request with Mr. Nathan A. RICE, Former Warden, and he stated that he vaguely recalled a telephone conversation between him and a gentleman professing to be an expert on execution chambers. Mr. Rice further states that the gentleman called him for the purpose of selling a lethal injection machine...

Also, our records do not support that Mr. Leuchter performed either consulting or any service...I can attest that the planning and work was performed by the Department of Correction Engineering Section and our institution maintenance department." Signed: Gary T. Dixon, Warden (North Carolina)
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:09 am

From the above:
The only other state with which Leuchter has alleged consulted regarding gas chambers is Missouri. Yet, even thought Leuchter has allegedly "designed" a gas chamber for the state, we have to take his word for it since that gas chamber was never built nor installed and, in fact, Missouri does not have an operational gas chamber to this day even though Leuchter had allegedly designed one for them over 4 years ago. We would like to hear from anyone who has contacted authorities in the State of Missouri regarding this matter.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Aaron Richards » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:54 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Alright, started watching this.
Out of the gazillion holocaust documentaries, this is pretty much the ONLY documentary about holocaust "revisionism" / denial, isnt it? This and PBS's NOVA: Holocaust On Trial (about the Irving-Lipstadt trial in the early 2000s)
Please subscribe to my YouTube channel "Holocaust Documents", where I fight back the sea of antisemitism & conspiracy theories that has taken over its comment section: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTBlSX ... Un5jIhWm7g
I compile rebuttals to popular holocaust denier canards here: https://siraaronrichards.imgur.com

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by montgomery » Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:38 pm

Jeffk, The first thing I notice with this thread is that it's getting a lot of interest, even though nearly all of the comments are mostly off-topic spamming. None in fact rise to the level of not including spamming, including Stat.Mech's where he tries to convince us that you need to change your mind and claim you're right about Leuchter being a weasel!

It's a frantic display of emotion that is not conducive to any kind of rational discussion, even before I make any claims in favour of Leuchter.

I'll wait until you state your impressions gained from the film but I think I'm ready to state the obvious from what I've seen here so far from those posting.

The conclusion/lack of conclusion we need to deal with before we even get into any details on the movie is the question of Leuchter having the skills/expertise/knowledge/credentials to take the samples and have them analyzed by a lab. Also, attacking the lab's credibility would be considered fair game in my opinion.

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:47 pm

montgomery wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Ah, Fred just called himself an engineer.

Needs to correct that and say “I’m playing at being an engineer!!!!”
A piece on whether or not Leuchter was an engineer. https://codoh.com/library/document/5278/?lang=en

From my POV, I don't think I want to take a position on him being an engineer. His recognized credentials would be more important. This article certainly makes claims of him being an expert with credentials, while other will say to the contrary. The article actually voices the contrary position, as well as the pro position.

And so we're met with a question already that could actually shut down this discussion. That being, Leuchter didn't know anything about what he was talking about.

Do you have an opinion on that question before we get further into the discussion?

(I'm supposing you have already watched the film if you're here on this thread commenting on Leuchter's credentials?)
I’m currently watching it.

From what I remember of Mr. Leuchter the judge in Zundel’s trial forced him to admit he wasn’t an engineer, didn’t have a degree or a certification.

Here’s where we get into the meat of things:
Leuchter never built or serviced a gas chamber. He designed one but it was never built (for Missouri).

In any case I’m going to watch a litte longer and then finish it tomorrow.
I'm going to have to insist that you read over the link I posted: https://codoh.com/library/document/5278/?lang=en

Then tell me if you think that Leuchter did or did not have the credentials to declare himself an expert in his field, and to actually stand as an expert. I contend that he was, and was indeed accepted as the foremost expert in his field in the U.S. But if we can't reach agreement on that then I don't see any hope for coming to any conclusions.
You want me to agree with you? Why?
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:49 pm

montgomery wrote:Jeffk, The first thing I notice with this thread is that it's getting a lot of interest, even though nearly all of the comments are mostly off-topic spamming. None in fact rise to the level of not including spamming, including Stat.Mech's where he tries to convince us that you need to change your mind and claim you're right about Leuchter being a weasel!

It's a frantic display of emotion that is not conducive to any kind of rational discussion, even before I make any claims in favour of Leuchter.

I'll wait until you state your impressions gained from the film but I think I'm ready to state the obvious from what I've seen here so far from those posting.

The conclusion/lack of conclusion we need to deal with before we even get into any details on the movie is the question of Leuchter having the skills/expertise/knowledge/credentials to take the samples and have them analyzed by a lab. Also, attacking the lab's credibility would be considered fair game in my opinion.
Why would we attack the lab’s credibility? Leuchter didn’t tell them what he wanted the tests for. Even though they crushed up the rock there was still cyanide in the sample.
Last edited by Jeffk 1970 on Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:03 pm

montgomery wrote:. . . None in fact rise to the level of not including spamming, including Stat.Mech's where he tries to convince us that you need to change your mind and claim you're right about Leuchter being a weasel!.
Not close, I quoted from the Zuendel trial and from the consent decree to show that the Codoh piece was full of holes and that Leuchter weaseled in his testimony. Nor did I urge Jeffk to change his mind, I rather implied that Jeffk was right the first time.

Btw non one here whom I know of asked for little lectures from you on what's emotional and what's not; how to post; what the issues are; and in what sequence to take issues up. The Codoh article is typically weak; you posted a link to it; three of us posted, quite soberly in fact, that it was weak and supported our claims. That we didn't follow your prescription is just tough noogies. You seem to be struggling with this forum thing . . .
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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by montgomery » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:22 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
montgomery wrote:. . . None in fact rise to the level of not including spamming, including Stat.Mech's where he tries to convince us that you need to change your mind and claim you're right about Leuchter being a weasel!.
Not close, I quoted from the Zuendel trial and from the consent decree to show that the Codoh piece was full of holes and that Leuchter weaseled in his testimony. Nor did I urge Jeffk to change his mind, I rather implied that Jeffk was right the first time.

Btw non one here whom I know of asked for little lectures from you on what's emotional and what's not; how to post; what the issues are; and in what sequence to take issues up. The Codoh article is typically weak; you posted a link to it; three of us posted, quite soberly in fact, that it was weak and supported our claims. That we didn't follow your prescription is just tough noogies. You seem to be struggling with this forum thing . . .
First of all, you may want to take note that I didn't say you asked Jeffk to change his mind. I said that you're trying to convince us that Jeff needs to change his mind.

Really, is that what you consider relevant? I consider it silly nitpicking that I would expect from one of the others who are trying to spam this thread.

You're right that nobody had demanded that issues be taken up in any particular sequence, other than me. I'm asking, or demanding if you like, that we clear the first hurdle of determining whether or not Leuchter had the credentials to perform the sampling tests in question. We already know that he wasn't a licensed/papered engineer. But we haven't yet established that he was the foremost authority on the science of gas chambers.

Pull in your horns and represent your position in a respectable manner! Your apparent anxiety and frustrations are not conducive to a rational discussion.

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:39 pm

First of all, why don’t we all take a moment to relax?

Montgomery, to answer your question, was Leuchter qualified to take the samples?


No more than you or I.

My issue with Leuchter was he never bothered to look at the available materials in the archive. I don’t know if Leuchter can speak or read German (I can muddle through some German in a book or on a page but can’t speak it) but I don’t see that as a barrier. Zundel could have made an interpreter available to him. Leuchter also never consulted Dow to figure out how ZB works.

Essentially he popped in for a few days, chipped away at the remains of the gas chambers and took off. AFAIK he never bothered to learn anything about the history of the camp.

Another issue I have is that Leuchter is making assumptions based upon what he thinks a gas chamber should look like or operate. He is transposing this onto buildings built (at that time) forty years prior. He is also making the assumption that an American gas chamber built for one person should operate like one built for a much larger group of people.

I will finish the movie tonight and give further thoughts.
Last edited by Jeffk 1970 on Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:41 pm

BTW if anyone reading this hasn’t seen it yet I do recommend it.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:50 pm

montgomery wrote: I said that you're trying to convince us that Jeff needs to change his mind.
Didn't do that, either.
montgomery wrote: You're right that nobody had demanded that issues be taken up in any particular sequence, other than me. I'm asking, or demanding if you like, that we clear the first hurdle of determining whether or not Leuchter had the credentials to perform the sampling tests in question. We already know that he wasn't a licensed/papered engineer. But we haven't yet established that he was the foremost authority on the science of gas chambers.
And several of us think it's relevant (a) that he has been demonstrated to be a liar and (b) that some of those lies concerned his credentials, some concerned the extent to which other parties sought his supposed expertise. In contrast to the way in which the Codoh piece explained this issue. My comment was, as I stated, on the Codoh piece.
montgomery wrote: Pull in your horns and represent your position in a respectable manner! Your apparent anxiety and frustrations are not conducive to a rational discussion.
Whilst I agree you are having trouble engaging in rational discussion, I am sure it is not because of my posts.
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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by montgomery » Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:21 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
montgomery wrote: I said that you're trying to convince us that Jeff needs to change his mind.
Didn't do that, either.
Try to follow along with your finger. What is it that you don't understand about 'I said'?

You are now fully aware of the parameters I've demanded in order to continue with this conversation. It's your choice on whether or not you can live with that. If you're ready to say that Leuchter didn't have the necessary credentials then stop sweating over it and get it done.

One thing I can tell you now for sure is that you are a rude and obnoxious person and you need to be able to take the high road in order to represent the position you have chosen to take. Did you understand yourself when you referred to ad hominem attacks.

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by montgomery » Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:24 pm

And several of us think it's relevant (a) that he has been demonstrated to be a liar and (b) that some of those lies concerned his credentials, some concerned the extent to which other parties sought his supposed expertise. In contrast to the way in which the Codoh piece explained this issue. My comment was, as I stated, on the Codoh piece.
I don't concede that, I'm just not ready to debate it yet. Everybody should understand why by now?

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:30 pm

Montgomery, I posted back to you. Anything you’d like to add?
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:34 pm

montgomery wrote:You are now fully aware of the parameters I've demanded in order to continue with this conversation.
And the horse you rode in on.
montgomery wrote:One thing I can tell you now for sure is that you are a rude and obnoxious person and you need to be able to take the high road in order to represent the position you have chosen to take. Did you understand yourself when you referred to ad hominem attacks.
I think the phrase I am searching for is "insipid {!#%@}."
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Re: Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred Leuchter

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:35 pm

montgomery wrote:
And several of us think it's relevant (a) that he has been demonstrated to be a liar and (b) that some of those lies concerned his credentials, some concerned the extent to which other parties sought his supposed expertise. In contrast to the way in which the Codoh piece explained this issue. My comment was, as I stated, on the Codoh piece.
I don't concede that, I'm just not ready to debate it yet. Everybody should understand why by now?
Good for you. Jeffk may even stick around for the Great Unveiling.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"