"Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:17 am

To make a distinction properly one must consider the difference between a National Socialist and a Nazi. To many the words mean the same, but that is tarring all with the one brush and a gross over simplification.
The NSDAP were socialists with 'leftist' socialist values and an impressive socialist agenda. They implemented advanced and highly civilised socialist policies and had a socialist manifesto.
This changed with the murder of the SA echelon; this is when National Socialism became Hitlerism (Nazis).. who were right wing Nationalists. Below is an article from George Watson. Note the highlights: it is likely both of these works have huge elements of authentic writing but also some tampering and must be approached with some caution.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:13 am

VFX wrote:The NSDAP were socialists with 'leftist' socialist values and an impressive socialist agenda. They implemented advanced and highly civilised socialist policies and had a socialist manifesto.
Like persecution of German Jews; ending of democratic processes and banning of opposition/non-coordinated parties, press, and organizations; suppression of free speech and artistic freedom; cartelization of big businesses and protection of private property of so-called "Aryan" businesses; concentration camps for dissenters and perceived enemies; slave labor; militarization of the economy and society and preparations for wars of conquest; invasions and occupations of neutral countries; a culture of informing, spying, and arbitrary arrest; abandonment of legal protection and governance under the law; arbitrary abandonment of the principle of nullum crimen sine lege; apartheid and segregation enforced by the state and mob activity; massive property and wealth theft schemes; a belligerent and bullying approach to non-German nations and nationalities - and the substitution of Darwinian ideas of race war for international law; plans for theft of territory and resources from Slavs; and other such advanced, civilized, socialist policies.
VFX wrote:This changed with the murder of the SA echelon;
Which was an operation of the very top leadership of the NSDAP and implemented for the Führer by the SS.
VFX wrote:this is when National Socialism became Hitlerism (Nazis)
Someone needs to read more about the NSDAP in the 1920s, including about a man named Goebbels.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:34 am

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by landrew » Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:28 pm

It belies a sense of modern-day tribalism to pigeon-hole every political philosophy into either "left" or "right."
The Nazis rose on a wave of self-entitlement borne on mass feelings of victimization in the aftermath of the First World War. In a retaliatory way, they transmogrified from a populist leftist quasi-socialist movement into a heavy-handed right-wing fascist organization.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:16 pm

Although the roots of the Nazi movement were to a significant extent in the fever swamp of the Volkisch far right, in the Friekorps (which fought the left), and in similar nationalist groups (which opposed the Republic from the authoritarian right).
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:54 pm

VFX wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:17 am
To make a distinction properly one must consider the difference between a National Socialist and a Nazi. To many the words mean the same, but that is tarring all with the one brush and a gross over simplification.
The word Nazi is a shortened version of National Socialist, there is no difference in the meaning.

There are some wannabe Nazis today that think people will take them more seriously if they describe themselves as National Socialist. Whom are they trying to fool? :?

Even the National Socialists of the Third Reich used the word Nazi.
The NSDAP were socialists with 'leftist' socialist values and an impressive socialist agenda. They implemented advanced and highly civilised socialist policies and had a socialist manifesto.
The Nazis were neither socialists nor left-wing. The Nazis adopted the usage of 'Socialist' in the name of their party to attract voters. The earliest victims of the Third Reich were political opponents which included socialists.

The Nazis did not stick by their manifesto.
This changed with the murder of the SA echelon; this is when National Socialism became Hitlerism (Nazis).. who were right wing Nationalists.
Only a handful of the Nazis were initially left-wing e.g Goebbels.

There is no difference between National Socialism and Hitlerism between 1933-1945.

Nazism could never have been as successful as it was without Hitler as the leader of the Nazi Party.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:01 am

Goody67 wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:54 pm
There are some wannabe Nazis today that think people will take them more seriously if they describe themselves as National Socialist. Whom are they trying to fool? :?
Themselves?
Goody67 wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:54 pm
The Nazis did not stick by their manifesto.
Which, further, was not left wing or socialist in any meaningful sense.

"Anti-Semitism is the socialism of fools" as the German Social Democrats used to say. I'd use stronger words . . .
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:08 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:01 am
Themselves?
More than likely. No one else takes them seriously, whether they say National Socialist or Nazi.

The funniest part about it is that the original National Socialists even used the word Nazi.
Which, further, was not left wing or socialist in any meaningful sense.

"Anti-Semitism is the socialism of fools" as the German Social Democrats used to say. I'd use stronger words . . .
Wannabe Nazis are probably referring to the following points of the manifesto:

We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).

We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:21 am

Goody67 wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:08 am
Wannabe Nazis are probably referring to the following points of the manifesto:

We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).

We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
Nationalization isn't necessarily socialist. The framework of the party program was ethno-nationalist. My "favorite" plank is the one that said that the state should ensure that citizens live decently and can earn a living - and to expel aliens to make sure citizens can eat. I read the thing as a kind of Volkisch-populist mishmash. Which wasn't, as you noted, followed.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Balmoral95 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:44 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:21 am
Goody67 wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:08 am
Wannabe Nazis are probably referring to the following points of the manifesto:

We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).

We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
Nationalization isn't necessarily socialist. The framework of the party program was ethno-nationalist. My "favorite" plank is the one that said that the state should ensure that citizens live decently and can earn a living - and to expel aliens to make sure citizens can eat. I read the thing as a kind of Volkisch-populist mishmash. Which wasn't, as you noted, followed.
I was going to respond here, but since you're already talking to me... Carri on! :mrgreen:

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by VFX » Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:07 am

Goody67 wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:54 pm

Only a handful of the Nazis were initially left-wing e.g Goebbels.

There is no difference between National Socialism and Hitlerism between 1933-1945.

Nazism could never have been as successful as it was without Hitler as the leader of the Nazi Party.
You have not the faintest clue what you are talking about, just rhetoric from some book that took your fancy which reinforced your somewhat sublime view and lack of reality. The above only refers to your own lack of understanding which has little to do with reality. You seem to have an inkling of understanding but not much more. Keep on trying and you may get a C- eventually for effort.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:22 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:21 am
Nationalization isn't necessarily socialist. The framework of the party program was ethno-nationalist. My "favorite" plank is the one that said that the state should ensure that citizens live decently and can earn a living - and to expel aliens to make sure citizens can eat. I read the thing as a kind of Volkisch-populist mishmash. Which wasn't, as you noted, followed.
No it's not, but it is certainly what is generally associated with socialism compared to capitalism. The Nazis often said things for the propaganda purpose and nothing else.

It was predominantly a Völkisch -themed manifesto with certain aspects that would have certainly sounded promising to many German socialists in the 1920s. The Nazis tried to combine nationalism and socialism together which is an oxymoron.

There is absolutely no evidence the Nazis were ever socialists, despite the full title of the Nazi Party.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:24 am

VFX wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:07 am
You have not the faintest clue what you are talking about, just rhetoric from some book that took your fancy which reinforced your somewhat sublime view and lack of reality. The above only refers to your own lack of understanding which has little to do with reality. You seem to have an inkling of understanding but not much more. Keep on trying and you may get a C- eventually for effort.
Perhaps the expert of the definitions of the two words can explain the difference.

I wonder what Goebbels was thinking when he published the pamphlet Nazi-Sozi in the late 1920s. :mrgreen:
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by VFX » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:34 am

Goody67 wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:24 am


I wonder what Goebbels was thinking when he published the pamphlet Nazi-Sozi in the late 1920s. :mrgreen:
Who cares what Goebbels thought, what matters is what the masses thought. This is the same as what the US people think of affairs not Mr Trumps tweets.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:36 am

VFX wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:34 am
Who cares what Goebbels thought, what matters is what the masses thought. This is the same as what the US people think of affairs not Mr Trumps tweets.
Goebbels was the Reich Minister of Propaganda, he controlled what the masses thought.

Now go ahead and explain the difference between National Socialist and Nazi. :D
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by VFX » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:42 am

Goody67 wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:36 am


Now go ahead and explain the difference between National Socialist and Nazi. :D
I suggest you read it on RODOH, though the intellectualism will be a little above you. As usual you have no inkling of the content you are discussing yet pretend you do. You are very limited in intellect and personality.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:19 pm

VFX wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:42 am
I suggest you read it on RODOH, though the intellectualism will be a little above you. As usual you have no inkling of the content you are discussing yet pretend you do. You are very limited in intellect and personality.
I already have done that. Apart from a few wannabe Nazis trying to fool themselves by only considering themselves as National Socialists and not Nazis, I have seen no evidence to suggest that National Socialist is any different from Nazi.

Don't worry, everyone can see that you are struggling to give a clear definition of the difference. Why? Because there is no difference.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Balsamo » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:15 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:36 am
VFX wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:34 am
Who cares what Goebbels thought, what matters is what the masses thought. This is the same as what the US people think of affairs not Mr Trumps tweets.
Goebbels was the Reich Minister of Propaganda, he controlled what the masses thought.

Now go ahead and explain the difference between National Socialist and Nazi. :D
Time for Balsy the bee to step in.

Actually, Goebbels wrote that piece, which bears the title of "Der Nazi-Sozi. Fragen und Antworten für den Nationalsozialisten" in 1926 - it would be published in 1927. By 1926, Goebbels was still very close to Strasser, and the so called "North-Western" branch of the NSDAP which was openly "socialist" - not to be confused with "Social-democracy" as Statmec seems to do in this case - an openly anti-capitalist revolutionary socialism promoting the "nationalization" of the wealth and estates of the former German prince (nobility had been abolished during the 1918 revolution) but the former aristocrats were allowed to introduce their former title to their family names and allowed to keep their Estate. Strasser's NSDAP wanted to abolish all that. He also wanted the nationalization of most "national resource" which would affect the big industries especially in the part of Germany he was active - the Ruhr and Hamburg.
Additional detail: By 1926-27, it was Gregor Strasser who was responsible for the Party's propaganda, Goebels being his assistant while his personal secretary was...Heinrich Himmler.

Now Strasser might be one of those forgotten personalities, but back then, during Hitler's stay in prison and while the NSDAP had been prohibited, Strasser was the one who managed to maintain the Party position through new organizations like the "Voelkische Block" part of a political movement like the "Nationalsozialistische Freiheitspartei" (NSFP). Strasser did well during the Bavarian regional 1924 election and got elected with over 10% for his VB, and later that year he will become one of the few NSFP members of the Reichstag - and will be reelected three times.
Just to say that he was a really serious rival to Hitler who had been sentenced to 5 years (but would only serve 1).

While he became, after Hitler's release, one of the leader of the reestablished NSDAP (1925), he developped a new political line, even more clearly anti-capitalist and favoring a social revolution, asking for the direct nationalization of the heavy industry as well as of the banks, and of course the "issue of the former princes" on which Strasser favored an alliance with the SPD and the KPD!

As said, one year of absence, had by 1924-25 weakened Hitler's leadership, and it will take another year for him to finally retake control of the Party ( Bamberg 1926) and get rid of what he called the "nationalbolshevist" wing of the party.

That being said, when Goebbels wrote this piece, he had not yet joined Hitler, and was still fulfilling his task which was to gain the German workers (closer to the SPD/KPD, obviously) to National Socialism and this was the reason of "Nazi-Sozi" in which one finds the typical anti-capitalism, along with Antisemitism and anti-internationalism, all described as obstacles on the road to freedom for workers (no kidding, it is the idea).
In this lampoon, Goebbels tries to define a the only "good socialist path" to follow, a "German socialism" freed from international influences, that "Nationalist" oblige, a freedom that could only reached once Germany is freed from the slavery imposed by the Treaty of Versailles and its economical consequences, freed of foreign capital who could buy cheap the "strength of the German workers", thanks to the corruption of this so called "democracy", blablabla...

I have burned my eyes reading this crap written in old {!#%@} gothic characters, but one thing can be concluded, it targets the leftist voters, so it is maybe not the best example to show that the NSDAP had nothing to do with socialism. "We are socialists" is repeated ad nauseam.

A last remark on the term "Nazi".
First, it should be reminded that the Germans just cannot prevent themselves from using such shortcuts. The term "Nazi" was first used decades before in reference to the NSV ( Nationalsoziale Verein) a small party that existed between 1890 and 1903...
In the 1930's, it was also usual to nickname the members of the SPD the "Sozis", and today, many Germans still called the Germans from former DDR, the "Ossis", the Americans were the "Amis" during the war...It is not that pejorative as one might think, actually, although it is obvious that those nicknames were rarely used by those concerned. When Goebbels used "Nazi-Sozi" (that is including the two components of the NSDAP, it is more like a "joke" as the publication was meant to address those who would use the name...workers who were not YET members of the NSDAP. But there is not a single mention of the term "Nazi" within those 32 bloody pages.
Just the same that no SDP members would have presented themselves as "Sozis", the same can be said by the members of the NSDAP.
The pejorative meaning of the term "Nazi" will grow as the dictatorship will develop after 1933-34, and reach of course the level of "ignominy" at the end and after the war.

So i guess that VRX tries to make the distinction between the original national socialism of the 1920's from the "Hitlerism" which in his mind turned National Socialism into Nazism from 1933 to 1945.
There is some truth in that since Hitler was just a kid during the Nazionalsoziale Verein time (mentioned in G.Aly "Why the German? Why the Jew?), and was not even the founder of the NSDAP.

Hitler was no real socialist at all, and i wonder really if he had some real political ideology that can be categorized "left" or "right". After all, we would defend the wealthy when he needed money and would then seduced the workers when he needed votes. He was a political opportunist who established probably the most corrupted regime Europe has ever seen.

At the times when those "ideological" oppositions existed within the NSDAP, the Party was an insignificant political movement, like many others, that poses no real threats except some annoyances. Except in some specific areas of Germany, the "Socialist revolutionary" side of the NSDAP had very little success and would have never reached something even close to substantial national political influence. There was just no way to beat the SPD/KPD among the German workers, although Strasser had some political success, but then he was eventually open to ally with those parties.

Theoretical Antisemitism aside, i do not think one could call Gregor Strasser a Nazi by 1945 standards, although he was one until his assasination by the Nazis in 1934 (easy).
Given that there was a challenge to make a distinction between National Socialist and Nazis, it is the only one i could find. ;)

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:44 pm

>> In the 1930's, it was also usual to nickname the members of the SPD the "Sozis"

In Sweden, "sosse" refers to the Social Democrats, sometimes (mostly?) used pejoratively. A form of the word, "sosseriet," showed up on Sweden Democrat t-shirts in the September election campaign:

Image
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:31 am

Hey Balsamo,

You have raised some very important points for readers to be informed about with regards to the origin and usage of the word 'Nazi'.

Although there were attempts before the Nazis to combine nationalism and socialism (however those two words were loosely defined), the word Nazi has been synonymous and used to refer to the National Socialists of the NSDAP since the 1920s.

German Wikipedia states:
Die Ausdrücke „Nazis“ für die Nationalsozialisten und „Nazismus“ für ihre Ideologie wurden seit den 1920er Jahren bei ihren Gegnern in der Arbeiterbewegung, später auch bei den befreiten Häftlingen des KZ Buchenwald und in der DDR üblich. Heutige Anhänger des Nationalsozialismus werden oft „Neonazis“ genannt.
Nazi. In: Friedrich Kluge, Elmar Seebold: Etymologisches Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache. 24. Auflage, Walter de Gruyter, Berlin/New York 2002, ISBN 3-11-017473-1 (Online Etymology Dictionary: Nazi).

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalsozialismus

Although Goebbels published the Nazi-Sozi papmphlet in the mid 1920s, it was revised and reissued in 1931.

Even in 1941, Goebbels was still using the word Nazi:
Dr. Goebbels, February 17, 1941 wrote:
Glass reports from the Balkans. Things in Rumania are just as I described them. Antonescu without popular support. But the Foreign Ministry is supporting him. The SS and the SD are taking a tough stand against Ribbentrop for having supplied the Führer with incomplete information. Because personally he is no Nazi. He is a Jeremiah! But I intend to have another meeting with the Führer about this. The freemasons are forcing their way back into their old positions, and even the Jews are coming back. Poor Antonescu! Now he has officially destroyed the legionary character of the state. It is hard to say where things will lead if they continue in this unhappy direction. We only seem to support nationalists when they have no nations behind them. Like Mussert and Quisling. What a disaster! [Emphasis mine.]

Goebbels, Joseph, 1897-1945. The Goebbels Diaries: 1939-1941. Translated and edited by Fred Taylor. New York : Putnam, 1983, c1982; p. 236.
Dr. Goebbels, February 17, 1941 wrote:
Aber unser A.A. stützt ihn. Die S.S. und der S.D. stehen scharf gegen Ribbentrop, der den Führer nur unvollkommen unterrichtet. Weil er selbst kein Nazi ist. Er is ein Jeremias!

Goebbels, Joseph, 1897-1945. Die Tagebücher von Joseph Goebbels. München; New York: K.G. Saur (1987) Bd. 4. 1.1.1940-8.7.1941; S. 506.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Balsamo » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:06 pm

Thanks goody,
As i said, the word has not such a bad connotation until 1945.
Although i noticed that the German wiki page confirms that it was mainly used by the opponents of the NSDAP, even if it was also used by Goebbels in his diary...but then it was a personal diary.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by VFX » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:51 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:15 pm
Goody67 wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:36 am
VFX wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:34 am
Who cares what Goebbels thought, what matters is what the masses thought. This is the same as what the US people think of affairs not Mr Trumps tweets.
Goebbels was the Reich Minister of Propaganda, he controlled what the masses thought.

Now go ahead and explain the difference between National Socialist and Nazi. :D
Time for Balsy the bee to step in.

Actually, Goebbels wrote that piece, which bears the title of "Der Nazi-Sozi. Fragen und Antworten für den Nationalsozialisten" in 1926 - it would be published in 1927. By 1926, Goebbels was still very close to Strasser, and the so called "North-Western" branch of the NSDAP which was openly "socialist" - not to be confused with "Social-democracy" as Statmec seems to do in this case - an openly anti-capitalist revolutionary socialism promoting the "nationalization" of the wealth and estates of the former German prince (nobility had been abolished during the 1918 revolution) but the former aristocrats were allowed to introduce their former title to their family names and allowed to keep their Estate. Strasser's NSDAP wanted to abolish all that. He also wanted the nationalization of most "national resource" which would affect the big industries especially in the part of Germany he was active - the Ruhr and Hamburg.
Additional detail: By 1926-27, it was Gregor Strasser who was responsible for the Party's propaganda, Goebels being his assistant while his personal secretary was...Heinrich Himmler.

Now Strasser might be one of those forgotten personalities, but back then, during Hitler's stay in prison and while the NSDAP had been prohibited, Strasser was the one who managed to maintain the Party position through new organizations like the "Voelkische Block" part of a political movement like the "Nationalsozialistische Freiheitspartei" (NSFP). Strasser did well during the Bavarian regional 1924 election and got elected with over 10% for his VB, and later that year he will become one of the few NSFP members of the Reichstag - and will be reelected three times.
Just to say that he was a really serious rival to Hitler who had been sentenced to 5 years (but would only serve 1).

While he became, after Hitler's release, one of the leader of the reestablished NSDAP (1925), he developped a new political line, even more clearly anti-capitalist and favoring a social revolution, asking for the direct nationalization of the heavy industry as well as of the banks, and of course the "issue of the former princes" on which Strasser favored an alliance with the SPD and the KPD!

As said, one year of absence, had by 1924-25 weakened Hitler's leadership, and it will take another year for him to finally retake control of the Party ( Bamberg 1926) and get rid of what he called the "nationalbolshevist" wing of the party.

That being said, when Goebbels wrote this piece, he had not yet joined Hitler, and was still fulfilling his task which was to gain the German workers (closer to the SPD/KPD, obviously) to National Socialism and this was the reason of "Nazi-Sozi" in which one finds the typical anti-capitalism, along with Antisemitism and anti-internationalism, all described as obstacles on the road to freedom for workers (no kidding, it is the idea).
In this lampoon, Goebbels tries to define a the only "good socialist path" to follow, a "German socialism" freed from international influences, that "Nationalist" oblige, a freedom that could only reached once Germany is freed from the slavery imposed by the Treaty of Versailles and its economical consequences, freed of foreign capital who could buy cheap the "strength of the German workers", thanks to the corruption of this so called "democracy", blablabla...

I have burned my eyes reading this crap written in old {!#%@} gothic characters, but one thing can be concluded, it targets the leftist voters, so it is maybe not the best example to show that the NSDAP had nothing to do with socialism. "We are socialists" is repeated ad nauseam.

A last remark on the term "Nazi".
First, it should be reminded that the Germans just cannot prevent themselves from using such shortcuts. The term "Nazi" was first used decades before in reference to the NSV ( Nationalsoziale Verein) a small party that existed between 1890 and 1903...
In the 1930's, it was also usual to nickname the members of the SPD the "Sozis", and today, many Germans still called the Germans from former DDR, the "Ossis", the Americans were the "Amis" during the war...It is not that pejorative as one might think, actually, although it is obvious that those nicknames were rarely used by those concerned. When Goebbels used "Nazi-Sozi" (that is including the two components of the NSDAP, it is more like a "joke" as the publication was meant to address those who would use the name...workers who were not YET members of the NSDAP. But there is not a single mention of the term "Nazi" within those 32 bloody pages.
Just the same that no SDP members would have presented themselves as "Sozis", the same can be said by the members of the NSDAP.
The pejorative meaning of the term "Nazi" will grow as the dictatorship will develop after 1933-34, and reach of course the level of "ignominy" at the end and after the war.

So i guess that VRX tries to make the distinction between the original national socialism of the 1920's from the "Hitlerism" which in his mind turned National Socialism into Nazism from 1933 to 1945.
There is some truth in that since Hitler was just a kid during the Nazionalsoziale Verein time (mentioned in G.Aly "Why the German? Why the Jew?), and was not even the founder of the NSDAP.

Hitler was no real socialist at all, and i wonder really if he had some real political ideology that can be categorized "left" or "right". After all, we would defend the wealthy when he needed money and would then seduced the workers when he needed votes. He was a political opportunist who established probably the most corrupted regime Europe has ever seen.

At the times when those "ideological" oppositions existed within the NSDAP, the Party was an insignificant political movement, like many others, that poses no real threats except some annoyances. Except in some specific areas of Germany, the "Socialist revolutionary" side of the NSDAP had very little success and would have never reached something even close to substantial national political influence. There was just no way to beat the SPD/KPD among the German workers, although Strasser had some political success, but then he was eventually open to ally with those parties.

Theoretical Antisemitism aside, i do not think one could call Gregor Strasser a Nazi by 1945 standards, although he was one until his assasination by the Nazis in 1934 (easy).
Given that there was a challenge to make a distinction between National Socialist and Nazis, it is the only one i could find. ;)
Balsomo, this is well thought out and researched and pretty much on the mark.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:30 pm

VFX wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:51 pm
Balsomo, this is well thought out and researched and pretty much on the mark.
Which variation of nationalism and socialism combined together do you support? It wouldn't be the one practiced between 1933-1945, would it? :mrgreen:
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by VFX » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:40 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:30 pm
VFX wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:51 pm
Balsomo, this is well thought out and researched and pretty much on the mark.
Which variation of nationalism and socialism combined together do you support? It wouldn't be the one practiced between 1933-1945, would it? :mrgreen:
Think Sturmabteilung prior to Operation Hummingbird.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:46 pm

VFX wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:40 pm
Think Sturmabteilung prior to Operation Hummingbird.
So yes, you are a Nazi.

You also like the thug aspect of the Nazis, well that says enough about your character.
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by VFX » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:14 pm

Goody67 wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:46 pm
VFX wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:40 pm
Think Sturmabteilung prior to Operation Hummingbird.
So yes, you are a Nazi.

You also like the thug aspect of the Nazis, well that says enough about your character.
This one is a special kind of stupid too. LOL :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:37 pm

VFX wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:14 pm
This one is a special kind of stupid too. LOL :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Elaborate.

Come on SA wannabe, I am sure you can do it!!! :mrgreen:
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by VFX » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:31 am

Goody67 wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:37 pm
VFX wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:14 pm
This one is a special kind of stupid too. LOL :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Elaborate.

Come on SA wannabe, I am sure you can do it!!! :mrgreen:
Now this stupid one is trolling. Pathetic aint it. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Pyrrho » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:58 am

I have warned VFX for posting the entire Independent article. Remove it and replace it with a very brief excerpt or I will.

From now on I will not be giving anyone that option. I will remove any full copies of articles. This is a legal issue and is not negotiable.
For any forum questions or concerns please e-mail skepticforum@gmail.com or send a PM.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Pyrrho » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:47 am

Removed.
For any forum questions or concerns please e-mail skepticforum@gmail.com or send a PM.

The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:19 am

VFX wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:14 pm
This one is a special kind of stupid too. LOL :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Do you think the SA was full of business men and intellectuals? :D :D :D
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Darren Wilshak » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:39 am

He's got to report back to Neu Stuttgart first before he can answer that question.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:19 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:39 am
He's got to report back to Neu Stuttgart first before he can answer that question.
He will be trying to find the best language translator. :lol:
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Balsamo » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:10 pm

Pyrrho wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:47 am
Removed.
Actually, the article was very good, but i agree that posting the link for those interested would have been enough.
So here it is:
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 6455.html

;)

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:02 pm

I thought it was terrible and really misunderstands fascism. I'm surprised you liked it, in fact. Oh well, go figure!
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by VFX » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:06 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:10 pm
Pyrrho wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:47 am
Removed.
Actually, the article was very good, but i agree that posting the link for those interested would have been enough.
So here it is:
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 6455.html

;)
Thank you Balsomo there is a reason why some wanted this removed. It is excellent and will be reposted elsewhere.

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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Goody67 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:13 pm

VFX wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:06 pm
Thank you Balsomo there is a reason why some wanted this removed. It is excellent and will be reposted elsewhere.
Did you even bother to read the post viewtopic.php?f=39&t=29558&p=670617#p670493?
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:14 pm

LOL as if people here can't click on a link!
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:15 pm

VFX wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:06 pm
Balsamo wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:10 pm
Pyrrho wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:47 am
Removed.
Actually, the article was very good, but i agree that posting the link for those interested would have been enough.
So here it is:
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 6455.html

;)
Thank you Balsomo there is a reason why some wanted this removed. It is excellent and will be reposted elsewhere.
You violated forum rules. Note that Balsamo posted it with no issues.

Pyrrho generally leaves us be until things get heated or people violate the rules.
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Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
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Re: "Nazis were left-wing!" Arguments from far-right American 'intellectuals'

Post by Darren Wilshak » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:18 pm

Well it suits the {!#%@} up rodoh narrative that they should lie about it. Right, Horst?