What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by Darren Wilshak » Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:32 pm

I can see its slime trail leads all the way back to rodoh.

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:08 am

Darren Wilshak wrote:I can see its slime trail leads all the way back to rodoh.
I think RtG would be proud of a statement like this. Well done, you have made an RODOH member proud to stand up for the truth.

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by Balsamo » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:15 pm

Well Daren forgot to add "down" after "back"... so nothing to be proud of.

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by montgomery » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:24 pm

In America, religious dissent isn't formally criminalized but in reality there are punishments just the same. Politics are still under the control of the Christian far right and no politician can openly claim to be agnostic or atheist.

But it's quite likely that the majority are. Obama was almost certainly faking being a Christian. His words betrayed that In my opinion.

This takes the discussion back to being on-topic. Does anybody want to discuss this issue?

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by Nessie » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:29 pm

montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I posted about this in another thread this morning after a denier made the odd assertion/criticism that his side doesn't have to legislate to keep the story real.

Litvak & Weberman in From Empathy to Denial: Arab Responses to the Holocaust briefly discuss censorship of Holocaust related content in Arab countries. They discuss the nearly complete absence of content on these difficult topics in two Lebanese textbooks they studied (p 191) along with Egypt's banning of a number of related movies, including Sophie's Choice; Schindler's List and Life Is Beautiful, the authors say, were banned in all Arab countries. Explanations of this censorship have included common anti-Semitic themes such as Jewish control of the media and the influence of Jewish money (as VFX would say, shekels) along with HD themes such as the supposed neglect of other victim groups and alleged Zionist machinations and control. (pp 180-183)

Of course, these instances of censorship are not on account of having to legislate to keep the story real, protect truth, or other arguments along that line but for other reasons. By denier logic, however, these acts have to taken as occurring out of fear of the truth of the genocide.
The only thing I've come to fear on this goatf-k of a forum is you kids ever starting to act like grownups!
Anyone reading this sees one person making a knowledgeable, interesting, researched post and the other acting like a child. Monty, your comment screams "TROLL!".
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:41 pm

>> ...your comments screams "TROLL!".

fsfy :mrgreen:
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by montgomery » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:50 pm

Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I posted about this in another thread this morning after a denier made the odd assertion/criticism that his side doesn't have to legislate to keep the story real.

Litvak & Weberman in From Empathy to Denial: Arab Responses to the Holocaust briefly discuss censorship of Holocaust related content in Arab countries. They discuss the nearly complete absence of content on these difficult topics in two Lebanese textbooks they studied (p 191) along with Egypt's banning of a number of related movies, including Sophie's Choice; Schindler's List and Life Is Beautiful, the authors say, were banned in all Arab countries. Explanations of this censorship have included common anti-Semitic themes such as Jewish control of the media and the influence of Jewish money (as VFX would say, shekels) along with HD themes such as the supposed neglect of other victim groups and alleged Zionist machinations and control. (pp 180-183)

Of course, these instances of censorship are not on account of having to legislate to keep the story real, protect truth, or other arguments along that line but for other reasons. By denier logic, however, these acts have to taken as occurring out of fear of the truth of the genocide.
The only thing I've come to fear on this goatf-k of a forum is you kids ever starting to act like grownups!
Anyone reading this sees one person making a knowledgeable, interesting, researched post and the other acting like a child. Monty, your comment screams "TROLL!".
It would appear that way if one took that post and reply in isolation Nessie.

I scanned back over the last page of garbage and none of it appeared to be on topic, so I raised an issue which I thought would be on topic.

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by Monster » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:41 pm

montgomery wrote: But it's quite likely that the majority are. Obama was almost certainly faking being a Christian. His words betrayed that In my opinion.
What specifically did Obama do that convinced you that he wasn't a Christian?
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by montgomery » Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:01 pm

Monster wrote:
montgomery wrote: But it's quite likely that the majority are. Obama was almost certainly faking being a Christian. His words betrayed that In my opinion.
What specifically did Obama do that convinced you that he wasn't a Christian?
Great question!
First off, he was obviously too intelligent to be one who would still be rejecting evolution and favoring creation. (yeah I know that requires further explanation) And also needs an explanation on why some believers in creation are very intelligent people. My theory on that is because it was imprinted into them from childhood. (like I said, a lot more explanation)

Further explanation is more difficult because it would mostly involve subtleties in his behavior. Did he not hint on the fact that old outdated beliefs had to be rejected? And didn't he oppose people such as Trump who relies on simple people who will accept the lowest of agendas if it's satisfying to their needs?

If anyone is interested, this topic can be developed further. Not just specifically on Obama but more to the topic. I think it's a great topic for this section of the forum. I want to know where the H.P. crowd stands on religion?

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:57 pm

The Lone Ganger
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:57 pm

:lol:
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by montgomery » Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:54 pm

Nessie wrote:
............along with Egypt's banning of a number of related movies, including Sophie's Choice; Schindler's List and Life Is Beautiful, the authors say, were banned in all Arab countries.

.
And for a very good reason Nessie. Those films are deliberately promoting hate against Muslim people. There is already enough justifiable hate against the Zionist apartheid regime.

Don't start the 'troll' accusations against me Nessie. You've been good to your word so far but I'm watching very closely and will immediately react to any change of attitude on your part.

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:11 am

Sergey_Romanov wrote:Let's make a sourced up-to-date list.

Here's a useful guide as a start.

http://www.proyectos.cchs.csic.es/trans ... ial-crimes
double negative ?
had to ask

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by Balmoral95 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:17 am

montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:
............along with Egypt's banning of a number of related movies, including Sophie's Choice; Schindler's List and Life Is Beautiful, the authors say, were banned in all Arab countries.

.
And for a very good reason Nessie. Those films are deliberately promoting hate against Muslim people. There is already enough justifiable hate against the Zionist apartheid regime.

Don't start the 'troll' accusations against me Nessie. You've been good to your word so far but I'm watching very closely and will immediately react to any change of attitude on your part.
You are truly nuts. And dumb as rocks. And a paranoid, low-life, rank anti-semite.

This is the scum certain members here want to play with?

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:24 am

Poosh?
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by Balmoral95 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:02 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Poosh?
Always an interesting question.

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by Nessie » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:57 am

montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:
............along with Egypt's banning of a number of related movies, including Sophie's Choice; Schindler's List and Life Is Beautiful, the authors say, were banned in all Arab countries.

.
And for a very good reason Nessie. Those films are deliberately promoting hate against Muslim people. There is already enough justifiable hate against the Zionist apartheid regime.

Don't start the 'troll' accusations against me Nessie. You've been good to your word so far but I'm watching very closely and will immediately react to any change of attitude on your part.
You have misattributed that quote, it was not me who wrote that.
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by VFX » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:06 am

It was book boy not Nessie. :) A quote within a quote. Easy mistake.
Statistical Mechanic wrote:They discuss the nearly complete absence of content on these difficult topics in two Lebanese textbooks they studied (p 191)along with Egypt's banning of a number of related movies, including Sophie's Choice; Schindler's List and Life Is Beautiful, the authors say, were banned in all Arab countries.Explanations of this censorship have included common anti-Semitic themes such as Jewish control of the media and the influence of Jewish money (as VFX would say, shekels) along with HD themes such as the supposed neglect of other victim groups and alleged Zionist machinations and control. (pp 180-183)

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:58 am

Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:
............along with Egypt's banning of a number of related movies, including Sophie's Choice; Schindler's List and Life Is Beautiful, the authors say, were banned in all Arab countries.

.
And for a very good reason Nessie. Those films are deliberately promoting hate against Muslim people. There is already enough justifiable hate against the Zionist apartheid regime.

Don't start the 'troll' accusations against me Nessie. You've been good to your word so far but I'm watching very closely and will immediately react to any change of attitude on your part.
You have misattributed that quote, it was not me who wrote that.
All around, from attributing the quotation incorrectly to reading anti-Muslim hate into the films, that was a bizarre comment.
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:29 pm

Article 354.1, dealing with media regulation, of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation in part criminalizes dissemination of material about the conduct of the Soviet Union during World War II deemed to be defamatory by the Russian Federation.
Article 354.1. Rehabilitation of Nazism
Denial of the facts established by the verdict of the International Military Tribunal for the trial and punishment of the major war criminals of the European Axis countries, the approval of the offenses established by the said judgment, as well as the spread of false information on the activities of the Soviet Union in World War II, committed with usage of mass media.

Fine: from RUB 100,000 to RUB 500,000 or 1 to 3 years’ salary/income; or mandatory works for up to 5 years; or imprisonment for the same period with prohibition to hold certain position or engage in certain activity for up to 3 years.
Because truth fears investigation!

https://www.trust.org/contentAsset/raw- ... 32cc9/file

As this thread has shown, with a limited survey of actual cases, the claims that only dissemination of and speech pertaining to HD is outlawed across the globe and that the only reason for bans on expression about history and "memory" is fear of the truth are part of a polemical campaign aimed at shoring up HD by means of falsifying the actual situation.
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:50 pm

Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:
............along with Egypt's banning of a number of related movies, including Sophie's Choice; Schindler's List and Life Is Beautiful, the authors say, were banned in all Arab countries.

.
And for a very good reason Nessie. Those films are deliberately promoting hate against Muslim people. There is already enough justifiable hate against the Zionist apartheid regime.

Don't start the 'troll' accusations against me Nessie. You've been good to your word so far but I'm watching very closely and will immediately react to any change of attitude on your part.
You have misattributed that quote, it was not me who wrote that.
Sorry Nessie, I see that it was out of character for you now.

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:26 pm

VFX wrote:It was book boy not Nessie. :) A quote within a quote. Easy mistake.
Statistical Mechanic wrote:They discuss the nearly complete absence of content on these difficult topics in two Lebanese textbooks they studied (p 191)along with Egypt's banning of a number of related movies, including Sophie's Choice; Schindler's List and Life Is Beautiful, the authors say, were banned in all Arab countries.Explanations of this censorship have included common anti-Semitic themes such as Jewish control of the media and the influence of Jewish money (as VFX would say, shekels) along with HD themes such as the supposed neglect of other victim groups and alleged Zionist machinations and control. (pp 180-183)
I doubt it was a simple quoting mishap, s/he explicitly addressed Nessie in his/her (second and later) comment about the chosen part and not StatMech, as s/he initially did.

ETA
montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I posted about this in another thread this morning after a denier made the odd assertion/criticism that his side doesn't have to legislate to keep the story real.

Litvak & Weberman in From Empathy to Denial: Arab Responses to the Holocaust briefly discuss censorship of Holocaust related content in Arab countries. They discuss the nearly complete absence of content on these difficult topics in two Lebanese textbooks they studied (p 191) along with Egypt's banning of a number of related movies, including Sophie's Choice; Schindler's List and Life Is Beautiful, the authors say, were banned in all Arab countries. Explanations of this censorship have included common anti-Semitic themes such as Jewish control of the media and the influence of Jewish money (as VFX would say, shekels) along with HD themes such as the supposed neglect of other victim groups and alleged Zionist machinations and control. (pp 180-183)

Of course, these instances of censorship are not on account of having to legislate to keep the story real, protect truth, or other arguments along that line but for other reasons. By denier logic, however, these acts have to taken as occurring out of fear of the truth of the genocide.
The only thing I've come to fear on this goatf-k of a forum is you kids ever starting to act like grownups!
Anyone reading this sees one person making a knowledgeable, interesting, researched post and the other acting like a child. Monty, your comment screams "TROLL!".
It would appear that way if one took that post and reply in isolation Nessie.

I scanned back over the last page of garbage and none of it appeared to be on topic, so I raised an issue which I thought would be on topic.
http://skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 89#p663589

Nessie's comment about the little stalker girl with the big crush is correct. :lol:
.
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:00 pm

Over at ISF Georgio, a member who has joined the HD thread - after commenting on how helpful he finds HC in debunking denier videos he's been exposed to - asks,
I can't seem to find a treatment of Anthony Lawson's 'Were the Germans so stupid?' film there.

I've skimmed through the film and much of it seems to be about whether or not HD should be illegal etc. but is there a source that refutes his 'factual' claims point by point? Thanks.
Anyone know?
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:56 pm

Watched about five minutes....
His bit about Hoess is the same old BS I’ve seen before...Hoess was tortured and confessed to something that didn’t happen or “isn’t scientifically possible.”

Funny, Hoess doesn’t dispute any of this in his memoir. He also wasn’t a defendant at Nuremberg.
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:58 pm

But you don't know if anyone has taken the time to go through the whole video and debunk it the way HC did, e.g., Denierbud's stuff?
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:05 pm

Information on Charles Wennerstrum:

http://uipress.lib.uiowa.edu/bdi/Detail ... spx?id=404
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/10 ... 24832?s=21

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:06 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:58 pm
But you don't know if anyone has taken the time to go through the whole video and debunk it the way HC did, e.g., Denierbud's stuff?

I don’t think so. Looks like boilerplate stuff, though. I’ve never heard of this guy but it looks like regular denier garbage.
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/10 ... 24832?s=21

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:55 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:05 pm
Information on Charles Wennerstrum:

http://uipress.lib.uiowa.edu/bdi/Detail ... spx?id=404
Taylor was a moralizing sob. He should have let that criticism lay w/o comment. And, arguably, Wennerstrum should have quit if he didn't agree with the program at a fundamental level.

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:30 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:55 am
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:05 pm
Information on Charles Wennerstrum:

http://uipress.lib.uiowa.edu/bdi/Detail ... spx?id=404
Taylor was a moralizing sob. He should have let that criticism lay w/o comment. And, arguably, Wennerstrum should have quit if he didn't agree with the program at a fundamental level.
It looks to me that Wennerstrum ran a fair trial (based upon the description). They applied international law fairly and it doesn’t look like any death sentences were handed out. Probably the life sentences were commuted though I didn’t look into it.
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/10 ... 24832?s=21

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:32 am

Yep, no death sentences and sentences commuted:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostages_Trial
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/10 ... 24832?s=21

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:47 am

My opinion differs. The tribunal ignored the part of the Control Council Law no. 10 which forbade the killing of hostages (II-1-b where killing of hostages is defined as a war crime); the tribunal substituted its interpretation that customary international law allowed hostage executions and laid out the conditions in which hostage killing was to be permitted. Heller says that narrowly speaking this "was likely correct" but that it was "regrettable." Indeed. The Geneva Convention of 1949 "corrected" the "Hostages" tribunal and, then more emphatically, in 1983 an international convention specifically barring hostage executions went into force. The lack of executions and the presence of sentence commutations don't support this trial having been particularly well managed, especially when its core approach had to be "corrected." "Fair" in this case can only mean biased in favor of the defendants, which doesn't strike me as fair.
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:37 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:47 am
My opinion differs. The tribunal ignored the part of the Control Council Law no. 10 which forbade the killing of hostages (II-1-b where killing of hostages is defined as a war crime); the tribunal substituted its interpretation that customary international law allowed hostage executions and laid out the conditions in which hostage killing was to be permitted. Heller says that narrowly speaking this "was likely correct" but that it was "regrettable." Indeed. The Geneva Convention of 1949 "corrected" the "Hostages" tribunal and, then more emphatically, in 1983 an international convention specifically barring hostage executions went into force. The lack of executions and the presence of sentence commutations don't support this trial having been particularly well managed, especially when its core approach had to be "corrected." "Fair" in this case can only mean biased in favor of the defendants, which doesn't strike me as fair.
Right, but I think we talk past one another...

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:14 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:47 am
My opinion differs. The tribunal ignored the part of the Control Council Law no. 10 which forbade the killing of hostages (II-1-b where killing of hostages is defined as a war crime); the tribunal substituted its interpretation that customary international law allowed hostage executions and laid out the conditions in which hostage killing was to be permitted. Heller says that narrowly speaking this "was likely correct" but that it was "regrettable." Indeed. The Geneva Convention of 1949 "corrected" the "Hostages" tribunal and, then more emphatically, in 1983 an international convention specifically barring hostage executions went into force. The lack of executions and the presence of sentence commutations don't support this trial having been particularly well managed, especially when its core approach had to be "corrected." "Fair" in this case can only mean biased in favor of the defendants, which doesn't strike me as fair.
I agree in the sense that it was correct but also agree this is regrettable. It was a loophole that could be exploited (and was). That was the problem, anything that wasn’t codified could be exploited by an occupying power. Hostage taking and executing said hostages was a long-standing practice by occupying military forces.

I’m not sure that made any sense, that’s what I get while typing while tired....

In any case it’s good that this loophole was closed.

As for bias, well, isn’t that the essence of the judicial system? Isn’t the burden of proof on the prosecutor? I don’t agree with the sentences nor do I agree with commuting said sentences but that’s what I figured happened. By the late 40’s sentences became more lenient and defendants often served less time than what they were sentenced.

I think I misspoke to a degree....my point was I can’t figure out what this judge was griping about. I checked, he wasn’t misquoted (which I find happens with these videos). The defendants received lenient sentences and most served less time than what they were sentenced.

I’m going to bed, I’m pretty sure I’m going to look at this tomorrow and wonder WTF I was babbling about.
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:21 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:14 am
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:47 am
My opinion differs. The tribunal ignored the part of the Control Council Law no. 10 which forbade the killing of hostages (II-1-b where killing of hostages is defined as a war crime); the tribunal substituted its interpretation that customary international law allowed hostage executions and laid out the conditions in which hostage killing was to be permitted. Heller says that narrowly speaking this "was likely correct" but that it was "regrettable." Indeed. The Geneva Convention of 1949 "corrected" the "Hostages" tribunal and, then more emphatically, in 1983 an international convention specifically barring hostage executions went into force. The lack of executions and the presence of sentence commutations don't support this trial having been particularly well managed, especially when its core approach had to be "corrected." "Fair" in this case can only mean biased in favor of the defendants, which doesn't strike me as fair.
I agree in the sense that it was correct but also agree this is regrettable. It was a loophole that could be exploited (and was). That was the problem, anything that wasn’t codified could be exploited by an occupying power. Hostage taking and executing said hostages was a long-standing practice by occupying military forces.

I’m not sure that made any sense, that’s what I get while typing while tired....

In any case it’s good that this loophole was closed.

As for bias, well, isn’t that the essence of the judicial system? Isn’t the burden of proof on the prosecutor? I don’t agree with the sentences nor do I agree with commuting said sentences but that’s what I figured happened. By the late 40’s sentences became more lenient and defendants often served less time than what they were sentenced.

I think I misspoke to a degree....my point was I can’t figure out what this judge was griping about. I checked, he wasn’t misquoted (which I find happens with these videos). The defendants received lenient sentences and most served less time than what they were sentenced.

I’m going to bed, I’m pretty sure I’m going to look at this tomorrow and wonder WTF I was babbling about.
LOL I went to bed before you did - and am still confused! I probably read your post wrong. From W's pov, the trial was fine. So his criticisms were a bit odd. Like whining. OTOH, from the pov of justice, W and his colleagues didn't follow CC Law no. 10 but rather their own view of customary international law, which seems to me (this is where, even realizing that Heller is the expert, I differ with Heller) to have been problematic.

As to the burden being on the prosecutor, sure - but for the court to disregard the legal framework for the trial brings me to Balmoral's point: support the program, as a jurist, or do something different with your life.
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:20 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:21 am

LOL I went to bed before you did - and am still confused!
New personal rule...don’t post while tired!!!!

I’ll add that to don’t drink and drive, never trust an IT person when they tell you everything is going to be fine and under no circumstances trust a politician!!!
From W's pov, the trial was fine. So his criticisms were a bit odd.
That was my thought, after all, he presided over the trial.

OTOH, from the pov of justice, W and his colleagues didn't follow CC Law no. 10 but rather their own view of customary international law, which seems to me (this is where, even realizing that Heller is the expert, I differ with Heller) to have been problematic.
IMO what the Germans did was so outside any sort of reasonable expectation of an occupying power that it required new rules to judge it.

On that note, I’m going on vacation... :D

Taking the family to an indoor water park. I’ll catch up here and there. I also intend on reading where I can.
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:24 pm

I actually think we agree! LOL

I think we could add that, where deniers are concerned, in the Hostages case the tribunal "leaned" in favor of the defendants and had it desired simply to punish the Germans, it would have adhered to CC Law no. 10.
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:47 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:24 pm
I actually think we agree! LOL
Shocking development!
:D
I think we could add that, where deniers are concerned, in the Hostages case the tribunal "leaned" in favor of the defendants and had it desired simply to punish the Germans, it would have adhered to CC Law no. 10.
Not just that but as time went on sentences became lighter and very rarely fully served.

Going by memory the Wehrmacht generally got off lighter.
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/10 ... 24832?s=21

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:33 pm

Speaking of which it cracks me up when deniers accuse us here of having a hive-mind. Just because most of us posting here reject lunacy and dishonesty. :)
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:51 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:33 pm
Speaking of which it cracks me up when deniers accuse us here of having a hive-mind. Just because most of us posting here reject lunacy and dishonesty. :)
I think the problem is we read books with actual knowledge in them.
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/10 ... 24832?s=21

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Re: What countries criminalize non-Holocaust denial?

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:43 pm

Bump
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/10 ... 24832?s=21