RIP Claude Lanzmann

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Upton_O_Goode
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RIP Claude Lanzmann

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:14 pm

I just heard this on the BBC.

https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2018/0 ... zmann.html

Shoah was one of my first experiences in learning about the Holocaust, and it gave me many insights that I wouldn't have had otherwise. It's an interesting psychological fact (probably tells something about me) that I was able to watch this because I knew it was factual. I couldn't get through the fictionalized account that had Meryl Streep as a German woman married to a Jewish man; it was just too painful. Not sure why.
“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.”

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Re: RIP Claude Lanzmann

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:29 pm

I’ve never watched the whole thing, only bits and pieces.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: RIP Claude Lanzmann

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:38 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’ve never watched the whole thing, only bits and pieces.
Like Upton I watched Shoah when it was released, I thought it was brilliant, and moving, at the time.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: RIP Claude Lanzmann

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:04 pm

D-H recommended getting the transcript. I saw it a couple of months back at 1/2 Price Books and I’m kicking myself for not getting it.

The problem I find with watching it is that depending on the version I find it is unevenly translated.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: RIP Claude Lanzmann

Post by Darren Wilshak » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:18 pm

Channel 4 showed it in its entirety in 1987 on terrestrial British TV. The most extraordinary part of it remains the covert recording of Suchomel. Though the whole thing itself is remarkable as an odyssey and hyponotic in its use of the train and tracks as a leitmotiv. It has a truly epic sprawling feel to it overall. A lasting record and testimony to the genius of Lanzmann and his inspiration.

The comparison with Berg's favourite TV mini series is interesting. Forty years old now. Gerald Green's teleplay uses historical sites and historical personalities and events of the Holocaust along with fictitious characters to tell a story through a soap-ish opera. Berlin and Kristallnacht, Dachau, T4, Einsatzgruppen, the Warsaw Ghetto fighters, Babi Yar, Jewish Partisans, The artists of Theresienstadt, Auschwitz.

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Re: RIP Claude Lanzmann

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:27 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:D-H recommended getting the transcript. I saw it a couple of months back at 1/2 Price Books and I’m kicking myself for not getting it.

The problem I find with watching it is that depending on the version I find it is unevenly translated.
LOL I bought the transcript a couple years ago hoping to find a DVD version to re-watch. I found one, in Paris, incompatible with my player it turns out. Weird that "Shoah" is not on Amazon or Netflix. Maybe Lanzmann's passing will prompt it to turn up again.
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Re: RIP Claude Lanzmann

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:12 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote:The comparison with Berg's favourite TV mini series is interesting. Forty years old now. Gerald Green's teleplay uses historical sites and historical personalities and events of the Holocaust along with fictitious characters to tell a story through a soap-ish opera. Berlin and Kristallnacht, Dachau, T4, Einsatzgruppen, the Warsaw Ghetto fighters, Babi Yar, Jewish Partisans, The artists of Theresienstadt, Auschwitz.
Thanks for using that description. That may explain why I found this too painful to watch. When I've glanced at soap operas, my mind has always switched to a dismissive mood: The writers can make anything happen that they want to happen, and there's no reason to regard this plot as realistic. That wasn't the case with this series, but just knowing that there were actors playing parts must have turned me off on a subliminal level. And in the back of my mind, I feared that the deniers would seize on it to say the whole thing is fiction, just like the Holocaust itself.
“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.”

― Frédéric Bastiat (1801–1850), French economist

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Re: RIP Claude Lanzmann

Post by Balmoral95 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:08 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Darren Wilshak wrote:The comparison with Berg's favourite TV mini series is interesting. Forty years old now. Gerald Green's teleplay uses historical sites and historical personalities and events of the Holocaust along with fictitious characters to tell a story through a soap-ish opera. Berlin and Kristallnacht, Dachau, T4, Einsatzgruppen, the Warsaw Ghetto fighters, Babi Yar, Jewish Partisans, The artists of Theresienstadt, Auschwitz.
Thanks for using that description. That may explain why I found this too painful to watch. When I've glanced at soap operas, my mind has always switched to a dismissive mood: The writers can make anything happen that they want to happen, and there's no reason to regard this plot as realistic. That wasn't the case with this series, but just knowing that there were actors playing parts must have turned me off on a subliminal level. And in the back of my mind, I feared that the deniers would seize on it to say the whole thing is fiction, just like the Holocaust itself.
https://www.nytimes.com/1978/04/16/arch ... -view.html

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Re: RIP Claude Lanzmann

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:27 pm

Thank you very much! As always, Wiesel says with great eloquence thoughts that I couldn't formulate. He once commented on artistic representations of the Holocaust as follows: "We should be filled with fear and trembling before we even mention the word." By any accounts, he had more right than almost anybody else to "mention the word."
“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.”

― Frédéric Bastiat (1801–1850), French economist

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Re: RIP Claude Lanzmann

Post by Denying-History » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:08 pm

Eh, I don't really know if I have more to say then IMHO that "Shoah" is a mixed bag. But sad to see him gone.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Re: RIP Claude Lanzmann

Post by Balmoral95 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:01 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Thank you very much! As always, Wiesel says with great eloquence thoughts that I couldn't formulate. He once commented on artistic representations of the Holocaust as follows: "We should be filled with fear and trembling before we even mention the word." By any accounts, he had more right than almost anybody else to "mention the word."
Sure.

I'm not a Wiesel fan but this was an apt critique.

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Re: RIP Claude Lanzmann

Post by Sergey_Romanov » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:52 pm

Speaking of soap operas, some idiots literally use screenshots taken from films to prove the Holocaust (Babiy Yar scenes).

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Re: RIP Claude Lanzmann

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:37 am

Sergey_Romanov wrote:Speaking of soap operas, some idiots literally use screenshots taken from films to prove the Holocaust (Babiy Yar scenes).
Exactly what I feared. That gives ammunition to the deniers.
“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.”

― Frédéric Bastiat (1801–1850), French economist

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Re: RIP Claude Lanzmann

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:27 am

. . . and causes organizations to split apart and much personal enmity, when the perps are found out . . .
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Re: RIP Claude Lanzmann

Post by Darren Wilshak » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:30 pm

Yes that screen grab of the tube from the Rutger Hauer film Escape from Sobibor which was then converted to monotone and presented at rodoh as an actual picture of the schlauch by some joker. But this guy was a denier, not someone using 'reconstructions of actual events,' as if they were genuine documentary evidence.

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Re: RIP Claude Lanzmann

Post by Sergey_Romanov » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:00 pm

Well, I meant some ppl on twitter, but now that you bring that up, that too.