Denial mind games : The Nazis could have done it better

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Oozy_Substance
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Denial mind games : The Nazis could have done it better

Post by Oozy_Substance » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:45 am

Confronting deniers, you always get to see the weirdest arguments and theories. A very common thing you will hear is "Killing Jews that way is not effective at all, if the Nazis really wanted to kill all the Jews they would have done it that way ..", with the deniers telling you his personal theory of how it should have been done.

At one time a denier was asking me why the Nazis simply did not gather all Jews in an open area enclosed by a barbed wire, like the allies did to Nazi POWs in Rheinwiesenlager, there the Jews would have been starved to death.

The denier said it would have been way cheaper than setting up a camp and killing people with gas and then burn the corpses.

I must admit it challenged me for a second. On the surface, it does make sense.
But when I pondered about it for a bit I reached the following conclusions :

- Secrecy. You cannot hide a huge plot of land where Jews are simply thrown there to starve to their deaths. Without secrecy, the Nazis would not have managed to round-up Jews over and over, lying them they go to work camps.
- Selection. The Nazis did not want to exterminate all Jews, they wanted to keep some alive, for labour work.
- Containment. It is way more difficult to contain tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of starving people than killing them en masse instantly in a gas chamber. The Jews can rebel and escape, especially when they got nothing to lose.
- Human nature. Only a few got to do the gassing work at the camp. While guarding a huge plot of land occupied by starving Jews would require tremendous man power. Some of the Nazi soldier may even show compassion to the Jews, allowing them to escape.

Also it can be added that starving people to death would be "barbaric" compared to gassing them and burning them, which the Nazis saw as clean and effecient.

Share your thoughts on this matter, or other strange arguments you heared from deniers about how "Nazis could have done it better".

Sergey_Romanov
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Re: Denial mind games : The Nazis could have done it better

Post by Sergey_Romanov » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:16 am

This method makes zero sense, on the surface or not.

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Aaron Richards
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Re: Denial mind games : The Nazis could have done it better

Post by Aaron Richards » Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:29 am

Valid points, Oozy. Also keep in mind that the Rheinwiesenlager meme is primarily fueled by the silly revisionist belief that Eisenhower starved 1.7 million disarmed German POWS to death there, and the source for this nonsense is Canadian fiction author James Bacque's novel "Other Losses" (which has been thoroughly torn apart by historians, but revisionist cognitive dissonance tends to ignore that particular bit)
Share your thoughts on this matter, or other strange arguments you heared from deniers about how "Nazis could have done it better".
You always have FP Berg whose favorite topic (apart from cherry red corpses) is how the Nazis could have, should have, used the Eisenbahnbegasungsanlagen (train carriage fumigation buildings) at Budapest or Sarajewo to gas Jews in the train cars themselves, or how the volatile/hazardous wood gas should have been used instead of safer gasoline-powered gas vans.
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Denying-History
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Re: Denial mind games : The Nazis could have done it better

Post by Denying-History » Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:12 pm

Pretty sure we discussed this already.
viewtopic.php?p=535407#p535407
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Denial mind games : The Nazis could have done it better

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:50 pm

Scott Smith at Rodoh 1.0 was very big on how better to commit mass murder than the historical record shows it was done, always ignoring the simple truth that the murderers didn't need an optimal solution, just one that worked well enough. At one point a denier calling himself Bankdraft got in on this speculation showing more malice and wishful thinking than reason or comprehension. His suggestion was as follows:
Hell, if I was gonna kill a bunch of Jews, I'd put a 10-cent (US) .22 caliber bullet into his skull from just behind the ear. As far a body disposal? A giant meat grinder and feed it to the dogs. Come to think of it, just throw 'em in the meat grinder alive -- why waste the bullet?

But what do I know? I guess a Rube Goldberg (thanks Scott Smith) gas chamber and mass graves and funeral pyres works just as well. Oh, and I'd skip the hair cuts and the tattoos.
Bankdraft tried applying this homicidal fantasy to historical situations:
Why bother to move the Hungarians,Romanians, etc.anywhere? Why not just exterminate the ones you can't use right on the spot if that's the secret plan?
So Bankdraft's improved method was to shoot about 300,000 Jews all across Hungary over 2 months, mutilate and destroy the 300,000 resulting corpses in giant grinders (!), and ship out about 140,000 other Jews to various labor sites. Ignoring that the Arrow Cross would later shoot, drown and otherwise murder about 15,000 Budapest Jews in a series of random Bankdraftian acts of shock and vengeance, leaving 200,000 terrorized Jews in Budapest.

I generally have taken this kind of rhetoric to express not a meaningful historical argument but rather a desire on the part of the writer.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Denial mind games : The Nazis could have done it better

Post by Sergey_Romanov » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:41 pm

The likes of Bankdraft should spend long years behind the bars.

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Kleon_I XYZ Contagion
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Re: Denial mind games : The Nazis could have done it better

Post by Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:40 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Scott Smith at Rodoh 1.0 was very big on how better to commit mass murder than the historical record shows it was done, always ignoring the simple truth that the murderers didn't need an optimal solution, just one that worked well enough. At one point a denier calling himself Bankdraft got in on this speculation showing more malice and wishful thinking than reason or comprehension. His suggestion was as follows:
Hell, if I was gonna kill a bunch of Jews, I'd put a 10-cent (US) .22 caliber bullet into his skull from just behind the ear. As far a body disposal? A giant meat grinder and feed it to the dogs. Come to think of it, just throw 'em in the meat grinder alive -- why waste the bullet?

But what do I know? I guess a Rube Goldberg (thanks Scott Smith) gas chamber and mass graves and funeral pyres works just as well. Oh, and I'd skip the hair cuts and the tattoos.
Bankdraft tried applying this homicidal fantasy to historical situations:
Why bother to move the Hungarians,Romanians, etc.anywhere? Why not just exterminate the ones you can't use right on the spot if that's the secret plan?
So Bankdraft's improved method was to shoot about 300,000 Jews all across Hungary over 2 months, mutilate and destroy the 300,000 resulting corpses in giant grinders (!), and ship out about 140,000 other Jews to various labor sites. Ignoring that the Arrow Cross would later shoot, drown and otherwise murder about 15,000 Budapest Jews in a series of random Bankdraftian acts of shock and vengeance, leaving 200,000 terrorized Jews in Budapest.

I generally have taken this kind of rhetoric to express not a meaningful historical argument but rather a desire on the part of the writer.
It's always apocalyptic when deniers feel free like home and leave aside the good manners and the fake politeness, and speak their minds free: That they are in the denial bewegung only for the joy of killing Jews. They deny the genocide because they love the genocide and they question the Holocaust because they want the next time to get the Holocaust job done successfully. This is the truth. The Holocaust never happened, but it was awesome and the Jews deserved it.
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html
XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: Denial mind games : The Nazis could have done it better

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:06 pm

I often have thought, based on how they express themselves, that, at least rhetorically, many deniers enjoy the thought of killing the victims a second time.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Denial mind games : The Nazis could have done it better

Post by ElectricMonk » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:05 am

Murder doesn't scale very well.

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Jeffk 1970
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Re: Denial mind games : The Nazis could have done it better

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:38 pm

Oozy_Substance wrote:
At one time a denier was asking me why the Nazis simply did not gather all Jews in an open area enclosed by a barbed wire, like the allies did to Nazi POWs in Rheinwiesenlager, there the Jews would have been starved to death.
An issue with doing this is that it’s very hard to control. The Wehrmacht possessed the personnel to guard the massive Soviet POW Camps (where millions did die, I’m not going to address the silly “Rheinwiesenlager” denier myth) but the SS did not. The Germans never sealed the Jewish ghettos securely enough to cause massive starvation, the Jews inside accessed the outside world to bring in some supplies.

It’s also too slow.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Denial mind games : The Nazis could have done it better

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:39 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I often have thought, based on how they express themselves, that, at least rhetorically, many deniers enjoy the thought of killing the victims a second time.
Berg falls squarely in this category.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951