Mass Grave Surveys

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:31 pm

Nessie wrote:Deniers arrogantly think that they can express an opinion on all sorts of topics they have no expertise in at all...
That's because they're not denying the fact it happened, they simply would like to curtail your right to talk rationally about it.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:50 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:>> And fwiw, the argument of mass graves being sacred and not to be disturbed, really doesn't work. If this site is to be used for evidence then just like any other mass graves, the forensics experts need to be permitted to do a complete job.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... o-science/
Thank you for the link but it's not really relevant to the discussion here. The remains of indiginous people don't belong to science and it could be said that no others do either. But the link isn't talking about a case where a crime is being claimed and disputed.

If the group that are making a claim needs to have their claim substantiated then they might have to allow the digging to take place for a full investigation.

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:11 pm

QED
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:36 pm

montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:>> And fwiw, the argument of mass graves being sacred and not to be disturbed, really doesn't work. If this site is to be used for evidence then just like any other mass graves, the forensics experts need to be permitted to do a complete job.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... o-science/
Thank you for the link but it's not really relevant to the discussion here. The remains of indiginous people don't belong to science and it could be said that no others do either. But the link isn't talking about a case where a crime is being claimed and disputed.

If the group that are making a claim needs to have their claim substantiated then they might have to allow the digging to take place for a full investigation.
Many indigenous Americans were likely murdered and there are claims it was a genocide. That is a crime. When will you be calling for their graves to be dug up? What about the Armenian genocide? Why no calls to dig up their graves?
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:15 pm

Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:>> And fwiw, the argument of mass graves being sacred and not to be disturbed, really doesn't work. If this site is to be used for evidence then just like any other mass graves, the forensics experts need to be permitted to do a complete job.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... o-science/
Thank you for the link but it's not really relevant to the discussion here. The remains of indiginous people don't belong to science and it could be said that no others do either. But the link isn't talking about a case where a crime is being claimed and disputed.

If the group that are making a claim needs to have their claim substantiated then they might have to allow the digging to take place for a full investigation.
Many indigenous Americans were likely murdered and there are claims it was a genocide. That is a crime. When will you be calling for their graves to be dug up? What about the Armenian genocide? Why no calls to dig up their graves?
The issue is not the murder of indigenous Americans and it's very dishonest to be suggesting that it is. I made that point with S.M. and that should have been the end of it. You discredit your self by trying to pull that kind of wool over my eyes. Don't do it again please.

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:18 pm

And when, in the face of clear evidence to the contrary, will he be claiming again that religious concerns and ethics aren’t relevant to archaeology? Whether the remains are those of murder victims or not ...
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:43 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:And when, in the face of clear evidence to the contrary, will he be claiming again that religious concerns and ethics aren’t relevant to archaeology? Whether the remains are those of murder victims or not ...
You're deliberately missing the point but at least you've done so without the usual abuse that gets you ignored. :)

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:52 pm

:yawn:
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:23 pm

montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:>> And fwiw, the argument of mass graves being sacred and not to be disturbed, really doesn't work. If this site is to be used for evidence then just like any other mass graves, the forensics experts need to be permitted to do a complete job.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... o-science/
Thank you for the link but it's not really relevant to the discussion here. The remains of indiginous people don't belong to science and it could be said that no others do either. But the link isn't talking about a case where a crime is being claimed and disputed.

If the group that are making a claim needs to have their claim substantiated then they might have to allow the digging to take place for a full investigation.
Many indigenous Americans were likely murdered and there are claims it was a genocide. That is a crime. When will you be calling for their graves to be dug up? What about the Armenian genocide? Why no calls to dig up their graves?
The issue is not the murder of indigenous Americans and it's very dishonest to be suggesting that it is. I made that point with S.M. and that should have been the end of it. You discredit your self by trying to pull that kind of wool over my eyes. Don't do it again please.
You said that a crime is not being claimed and disputed. That is the issue. I have pointed out that it is regarding the genocide of American Indians and Armenians. Some people say no genocide. Like deniers say no genocide, they accept many Jews died, just not from being gassed.

Since there is debate and dispute over those deaths, why not exhume their graves as well?
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:28 pm

Nessie, you've allowed the book-kid to lead you off-topic and fankly I'm through tolerating that kind of nonsense. We'll agree to disagree and I'll put an end to it right now!

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Darren Wilshak » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:29 pm

Does the ghost of Wilfried Heink stalk the corridors of this thread or something?

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:34 pm

montgomery wrote:Nessie, you've allowed the book-kid to lead you off-topic and fankly I'm through tolerating that kind of nonsense. We'll agree to disagree and I'll put an end to it right now!
Is it only the Jewish victims of a claimed genocide who should have their remains disturbed, or should all victims have their last resting places examined?
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:36 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote:Does the ghost of Wilfried Heink stalk the corridors of this thread or something?
I think you've adequately proven to be not worth the 'click' anymore Darren.

Maybe later?

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:38 pm

>> If the group that are making a claim needs to have their claim substantiated then they might have to allow the digging to take place for a full investigation.

This is also beside the point. Historians and scholars are doing work on the genocide. As for the claims of Jewish survivors against Germany for losses in the genocide, the claims conference has negotiated with the government of Germany, which government doesn't contest the basis for the claims. In fact, the settlements today are made under the German Vermögengesetz law. Negotiations have focused on funding of various claims programs, individual cases, etc, not the fact that the genocide and persecution of the Jews by the Nazis occurred. The only people contesting the facts and evidence to those facts are cranks, anti-Semites, Reich nostalgists, far-right loons, neo-Nazis, and brain-dead deniers. (There are valid criticisms of the claims conference - some concerning cases of fraud, others involving misadministration and failure to exercise good stewardship, and still others involving the conference overhead and the treatment of impoverished survivors - but these issues are not pertinent to debate about the crimes of the National Socialist state and party; other settlement programs also are based on acknowledgment of the genocide.)
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:39 pm

Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:Nessie, you've allowed the book-kid to lead you off-topic and fankly I'm through tolerating that kind of nonsense. We'll agree to disagree and I'll put an end to it right now!
Is it only the Jewish victims of a claimed genocide who should have their remains disturbed, or should all victims have their last resting places examined?
>> fankly I'm through tolerating that kind of nonsense. We'll agree to disagree and I'll put an end to it right now!

Fankly, my dear, no one gives a damn.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:43 pm

I gave you another thumbs up for that one Stat Mech. No one lectures me like a school ma'am, montgomery has been a {!#%@}.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:36 pm

Ooh, s/he's not going to take that well. The same as being so very intimidated by someone who actually reads books.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:39 pm

Nessie is right, and hell has frozen over :), not to put up with the condescension and snide lecturing.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:41 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:>> And fwiw, the argument of mass graves being sacred and not to be disturbed, really doesn't work. If this site is to be used for evidence then just like any other mass graves, the forensics experts need to be permitted to do a complete job.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... o-science/
Finally I agree with you on something. Can you explain that to the Kelpie in greater detail please.

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:44 pm

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:45 pm

Nessie wrote:he end of it. You discredit your self by trying to pull that kind of wool over my eyes. Don't do it again please.
You said that a crime is not being claimed and disputed. That is the issue. I have pointed out that it is regarding the genocide of American Indians and Armenians. Some people say no genocide. Like deniers say no genocide, they accept many Jews died, just not from being gassed.

Since there is debate and dispute over those deaths, why not exhume their graves as well?[/quote]
Good point Nessie but you have gone way off topic: would be an interesting thread by itself. Perhaps these Radar Surveys could be used to indicate other events and alleged genocides.

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:49 pm

Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:Nessie, you've allowed the book-kid to lead you off-topic and fankly I'm through tolerating that kind of nonsense. We'll agree to disagree and I'll put an end to it right now!
Is it only the Jewish victims of a claimed genocide who should have their remains disturbed, or should all victims have their last resting places examined?
Depends which holocaust you are referring too: the Shoah or the Russian Great Patriotic War. There have been many others https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:50 pm

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:he end of it. You discredit your self by trying to pull that kind of wool over my eyes. Don't do it again please.
You said that a crime is not being claimed and disputed. That is the issue. I have pointed out that it is regarding the genocide of American Indians and Armenians. Some people say no genocide. Like deniers say no genocide, they accept many Jews died, just not from being gassed.

Since there is debate and dispute over those deaths, why not exhume their graves as well?
Good point Nessie but you have gone way off topic: would be an interesting thread by itself. Perhaps these Radar Surveys could be used to indicate other events and alleged genocides.[/quote]
:hmm: Are you gonna fix that mess?




Edit: Prolly not. How about like so:
VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:he end of it. You discredit your self by trying to pull that kind of wool over my eyes. Don't do it again please.
You said that a crime is not being claimed and disputed. That is the issue. I have pointed out that it is regarding the genocide of American Indians and Armenians. Some people say no genocide. Like deniers say no genocide, they accept many Jews died, just not from being gassed.

Since there is debate and dispute over those deaths, why not exhume their graves as well?
Good point Nessie but you have gone way off topic: would be an interesting thread by itself. Perhaps these Radar Surveys could be used to indicate other events and alleged genocides.
Last edited by scrmbldggs on Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:51 pm

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:Nessie, you've allowed the book-kid to lead you off-topic and fankly I'm through tolerating that kind of nonsense. We'll agree to disagree and I'll put an end to it right now!
Is it only the Jewish victims of a claimed genocide who should have their remains disturbed, or should all victims have their last resting places examined?
Depends which holocaust you are referring too: the Shoah or the Russian Great Patriotic War. There have been many others https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history
Eh? So you would advocate digging the graves of Jews from one but not the other?!

Fact is, if a grave does not need to be disturbed for a very good reason, leave it and use non invasive techniques.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:58 pm

Nessie wrote:
Eh? So you would advocate digging the graves of Jews from one but not the other?!

Fact is, if a grave does not need to be disturbed for a very good reason, leave it and use non invasive techniques.
It depends on the religious customs of the people involved and how they feel. For me personally, once people are gone they are no more than just rotting flesh. Jews are just a species of animal as all people. What is important is respect for the customs of the people. When it comes to criminal investigations these factors need to be weighed up, with consultation
With that in mind, one does not need to dig up whole fields to find evidence. The radar may give an indication of locations etc and core samples can be taken for forensic analysis. This is about as non intrusive as you can get.

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Nessie » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:06 pm

When cremains are being found on the surface there is no need for core samples either.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:51 pm

Nessie wrote:When cremains are being found on the surface there is no need for core samples either.
That would seem reasonable at first glance but then is it? It would depend on what is trying to be established as the facts.

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Nessie » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:41 am

montgomery wrote:
Nessie wrote:When cremains are being found on the surface there is no need for core samples either.
That would seem reasonable at first glance but then is it? It would depend on what is trying to be established as the facts.
The facts speak for themselves. If large areas of cremated remains are found buried at a remote, unmarked site, the only conclusion that can be raised is that a large number of people were cremated, their remains were unceremoniously dumped and it was part of a cover-up. That is because normally a grave site is at least marked and it is unusual to bury mixed cremains like that. So unusual, only the Nazis have ever buried people that way.

The who are they, how did they get there, what killed them and why cannot be established from archaeology. The answers to those questions are found by looking for other evidence.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:27 am

Nessie wrote:
The facts speak for themselves.
No they don't, how do you know that they are not the products of a local abbatoir,

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Nessie » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:09 am

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:
The facts speak for themselves.
No they don't, how do you know that they are not the products of a local abbatoir,
Because abattoirs sell on the meat and are left with very little waste. What little they have is not cremated and then buried in the middle of nowhere. Furthermore, the initial Polish examination and the grave robbing found human bones.

Thinking up ridiculous explanations that do not fit the facts is dishonest.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:34 am

Nessie wrote:
VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:
The facts speak for themselves.
No they don't, how do you know that they are not the products of a local abbatoir,
Because abattoirs sell on the meat and are left with very little waste. What little they have is not cremated and then buried in the middle of nowhere. Furthermore, the initial Polish examination and the grave robbing found human bones.

Thinking up ridiculous explanations that do not fit the facts is dishonest.
How do they know those bones were human, and if so, how do they know anything about them.. Forensic evidence please. You have no facts only speculation so far. If you have hard fact spill the beans. We are all waiting with baited breath to hear from you with hard evidence.

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Nessie » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:50 am

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:
VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:
The facts speak for themselves.
No they don't, how do you know that they are not the products of a local abbatoir,
Because abattoirs sell on the meat and are left with very little waste. What little they have is not cremated and then buried in the middle of nowhere. Furthermore, the initial Polish examination and the grave robbing found human bones.

Thinking up ridiculous explanations that do not fit the facts is dishonest.
How do they know those bones were human, and if so, how do they know anything about them.. Forensic evidence please. You have no facts only speculation so far. If you have hard fact spill the beans. We are all waiting with baited breath to hear from you with hard evidence.
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/lasttracks.html

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Nessie » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:55 am

https://archive.org/stream/TreblinkaTra ... o_djvu.txt

Some details from the Polish investigation under Judge Lukaszkiewicz in 1945;

"The bombs had revealed thè contents of thè desecrated soil. Leg bones,
ribs, pieces of thè spine, skulls big and small, short and long, round and
fiat."

"In some places, thè smeli of death was stili
mingled with thè odor of fire. Indeed, here and there we could see little
piles of white ashes along with blackened bones, heaps of soot. All this had
been buried several meters deep in thè soil, mixed with sand and covered
with more sand, but thè explosions had brought it to thè surface again. In
one place thè simultaneous explosion of several bombs had created a huge
crater. Deep down in thè hole, some outlines could be dirnly seen through
thefog.
‘Those aren ’t just bones, ’ explained thè District Attorney. ‘There are
stili pieces of half-rotted corpses lying there, bunches of intestines."

"In thè northwestern section of thè area, thè surface is covered far about 2 hec¬
tares by a mixture of ashes and sand. In this mixture, one finds countless
human bones, often stili covered with tissue remains, which are in a condi-
tion of decomposition. During thè inspection, which I made with thè assis¬
tance of an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that thè ashes
are without any doubt of human origin (remains of cremated human
bones). The examination of human skulls could discover no trace of
wounding."
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:58 am

In those photos I see about 5 or 6 possible people. So where are the other 900 000? You are on about missing Jude, I am on about missing bones. If so many people were dumped in there the amount of bones would be vastly higher than this
grave. Explain.

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Nessie » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:59 am

VFX wrote:In those photos I see about 5 or 6 possible people. So where are the other 900 000? You are on about missing Jude, I am on about missing bones. If so many people were dumped in there the amount of bones would be vastly higher than this
grave. Explain.
Only a very small amount of the ground is revealed in the photos. I have now shown you evidence that there are human bones buried at TII, that cremains are found on the surface and there is a large scale disturbance of the ground there. Here is an aerial photo of the camp from September 1944;

Image

Look at how the ground is different from the area around the camp. That shows the size of disturbed ground. Then look in the bottom right of the camp, the section which was the Lazaret. There are rectangular shapes. This makes them clearer;

Image

Now it is evidenced there were large excavations which are the shape commonly associated with graves.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:09 pm

Well I have seen the same kind of natural geological formations. Some have claimed that these are Noahs arc.
Tell me if you find much difference between your evidence and those below of Noahs arc...seriously
Image

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Nessie » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:20 pm

VFX wrote:Well I have seen the same kind of natural geological formations. Some have claimed that these are Noahs arc.
Tell me if you find much difference between your evidence and those below of Noahs arc...seriously
Image
Show me a natural geological formation that is rectangular and appears on ground THAT HAS BEEN DUG UP BY PEOPLE. Seriously, how do you not see that rather obvious difference? The ground at TII is man-made.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:23 pm

Show me a natural geological formation that looks like Noahs Arc. You have no idea what you are looking at in those photos you presented.

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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by Nessie » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:36 pm

VFX wrote:Show me a natural geological formation that looks like Noahs Arc.
I do not think such a thing exists.
You have no idea what you are looking at in those photos you presented.
It is an aerial photo of TII and I can see rectangular outlines in the ground and large areas of disturbed ground. I have produced photos of human bones on the ground. I have quoted from the 1945 Polish survey of the camp which reports human bones and cremated remains over a large area of the camp site.
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Re: Mass Grave Surveys

Post by VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:43 pm

Nessie wrote:
It is an aerial photo of TII and I can see rectangular outlines in the ground and large areas of disturbed ground. I have produced photos of human bones on the ground. I have quoted from the 1945 Polish survey of the camp which reports human bones and cremated remains over a large area of the camp site.
I agree it is an aerial photo but no evidence it is TII, it has the same credibility as my Noahs arc photo. Disturbed ground could mean anything duh. 6 skeletons do not make a genocide Nessie. 1945 Polish were under USSR control... NKVD...the mounting evidence is the shoah myth came out of the USSR, producing Russian evidence doesn't count for much. You cannot tell from a photo of cremains... This is a total flight of delusional fantasy.