The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:17 am

>> "If it proves out that I have an educated audience"

LOL
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:56 am

montgomery wrote: Oh, and regardless of merit means what it says. Regardless of the merit of 'all' of their claims.
Gee, if I only had an educated interlocuter, I'd be discussing issues that had merit and not discussing those issues of no merit. but indeed, you post without distinction, so its the distinction I will apply.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:38 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
RT is trash
Indeed. And boy wonder quoting it as gospel says something about it's readership. :mrgreen:
Is metapedia next? :lol:
He's apparently not a big reader :mrgreen:
montgomery wrote:Well, you know, I love to read. Actually, I'm looking at a book, I'm reading a book, I'm trying to get started. Every time I do about a half a page, I get a phone call that there's some emergency, this or that. But we're going to see the home of Andrew Jackson today in Tennessee and I'm reading a book on Andrew Jackson. I love to read. I don't get to read very much, Tucker, because I'm working very hard on lots of different things, including getting costs down. The costs of our country are out of control. But we have a lot of great things happening, we have a lot of tremendous things happening."
Judging from his responses to Nessie in the Gas Chamber discussion and me in the "EG's" thread, montgomery reads very slowly and not very well.
Surely Shirley, deliberately attributing a post to me that isn't mine is against the rules. I should complain to the moderator but I won't. If you keep it up maybe the best thing to do is join in on your game.

Let's not. It would be destructive to your soapbox, not mine.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by Jeff_36 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:32 pm

How sanctimonious

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:44 pm

montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
RT is trash
Indeed. And boy wonder quoting it as gospel says something about it's readership. :mrgreen:
Is metapedia next? :lol:
He's apparently not a big reader :mrgreen:
montgomery wrote:Well, you know, I love to read. Actually, I'm looking at a book, I'm reading a book, I'm trying to get started. Every time I do about a half a page, I get a phone call that there's some emergency, this or that. But we're going to see the home of Andrew Jackson today in Tennessee and I'm reading a book on Andrew Jackson. I love to read. I don't get to read very much, Tucker, because I'm working very hard on lots of different things, including getting costs down. The costs of our country are out of control. But we have a lot of great things happening, we have a lot of tremendous things happening."
Judging from his responses to Nessie in the Gas Chamber discussion and me in the "EG's" thread, montgomery reads very slowly and not very well.
Surely Shirley, deliberately attributing a post to me that isn't mine is against the rules. I should complain to the moderator but I won't. If you keep it up maybe the best thing to do is join in on your game.

Let's not. It would be destructive to your soapbox, not mine.
Why are you complaining to me? - I didn't write the post you're concerned about. IMHO, you should however complain about my doing this to the moderator. You'd look like an idiot for doing so. Par for the course. I suggest you whine to the person who mocked you, too.

You really do struggle with this reading thing.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by montgomery » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:59 am

Why would I complain to the mod when this behavior of yours and the others just makes my point on how people of your persuasion behave? You all need to go to insulting school for real grownups.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by VFX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:34 pm

montgomery wrote: I'm embarrassed for you when you try to argue the Zionist side. The rest of the world isn't buying this crap.
Why do I get the distinct impression that most of the people here say שָׁלוֹם and wear the כִּיפָּה‬. I am sure many here could hold a conversation in Hebrew and Yiddish. The clear involvement of the US against the Assad regime, supporting ISIS white helmets, supporting fake gas attacks as in Douma, rejecting OPCW findings, setting up terrorist to fake more gas attacks by saying they will bomb Syria when it occurs. Attacking Muslim countries on the basis of extremely faulty intelligence reports (Iraq no WMD), bombing Syria before OPCW report. This screams to the world of Zionist conspiracy. The criminals are not the Muslims here. Montgomery is correct the world is NOT buying into it anymore.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:26 am

Hysterical anti-semitism noted. Never really takes very long for Nazi cockroaches to infest a place before the veneer of respectability evaporates.

And, yes, I know Jeff invited you here. So which one of you two wants to accept his head on a plate as a welcoming gift?

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:46 am

Balmoral95 wrote:Hysterical anti-semitism noted. Never really takes very long for Nazi cockroaches to infest a place before the veneer of respectability evaporates.

And, yes, I know Jeff invited you here. So which one of you two wants to accept his head on a plate as a welcoming gift?
Huh, been sick all day, workin’ on trying to get caught up on my notifications, saw this.

I didn’t invite montgomery here. I don’t know who he is.

That being said this is open forum. I don’t see your name parked over it. It also says “Holocaust Denial” and there were deniers here before and there’s nothing to prevent them from coming back with or with my invite.

There’s no restrictions on who I choose to invite to come here. I invited both, denier and non. There’s also no restrictions on who I discuss what with, what I decide to post or threads I decide to open.

Don’t like it? Too “fackin” bad. Deal. You are welcome to put me or anyone else you choose on ignore.

Still don’t like it? I still don’t “fackin” care.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:05 am

Hello Mr. Smith.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:26 am

Egad, Jeffk. Get better soon!
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:27 am

The Feldwebel has left without comment.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:35 am

He'll be back. :pc:
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:41 am

scrmbldggs wrote:He'll be back. :pc:
Why?

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:02 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:He'll be back. :pc:
Why?
Here is a great thread that needs discussion due to the impact on World Politics. I am sure some people, newbies to forums such as myself come here to read opinion, to get new ideas to perhaps change their world view.
Montgomery has mentioned the issues with the incumbent posters trolling, giving constant off comment remarks, usually of a sneering nature. He has promised all he intends to modify this. He has my support.
Now could you two gentlemen please discuss the topic at hand and stop the sneering and de-railing.... thank you.

JeffK started this thread so it pays to read the opening post, which should give an idea why the poster started it and what the expected outcomes are; with that in mind, I am sure the outcomes are not sniggering and so forth.
JeffK said:We wandered off into a tangent on the Trump thread about the Israel and Palestine. To give people an opportunity to discuss it I decided to open this thread.
a possible thread intention could be all of these in the following order:
  1. To discuss the history of the founding of Israel
  2. The impact of WWII in the foundation of Israel
  3. How the formation of the Israeli state impacted on the aspirations, culture and religion of the Palestinian people
  4. The impact US and other foreign Policies have on Israel and the Palestinian people
  5. How these foreign policies may have impacted on other Nations with regards to the Israeli and Palestinian peoples
If this is Not JeffKs intentions for the creation of this thread I am sure he will let me know and advise politely.
I will not do it here as I will await Jeffs instructions. If these are is intentions then I will start with the Balfour Declaration of 1926

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:09 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:He'll be back. :pc:
Why?
He promised us a book reporr. :geek:
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:13 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:He'll be back. :pc:
Why?
He promised us a book reporr. :nose:
He promised a lot over the years... delivery always a problem.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:29 am

VFX wrote:........ I will start with the Balfour Declaration of 1926
Can you take the next steps?....up to where you identify the criminals in your timeline? History is so complex, its always fun to see what threads are concentrated on, and which are ignored. Was it "great fortunes" or "Nation States" that all find crimes as their foundational event?

As to your complaint regarding sneering....every activity has its pros and cons. You want the pro, you gotta suffer the con. On every forum I have ever seen, its as you note a variety of pros with sneering always part of the cons. A small price to pay...and who worth engaging can't put up with a small price for a small return? Seems proportional to me.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:13 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:?

As to your complaint regarding sneering....every activity has its pros and cons. You want the pro, you gotta suffer the con. On every forum I have ever seen, its as you note a variety of pros with sneering always part of the cons. A small price to pay...and who worth engaging can't put up with a small price for a small return? Seems proportional to me.
Perhaps, but as the sneer are totally unrelated to the topic it is time-wasting and totally nonsense. Attempts to derail by bullying. If the jibes were unintentional then fine, there is give and take. This is not give and take: it is an attempt to dominate totally that nothing ever gets discussed here. This has been the pattern here for years.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:28 am

VFX wrote:
montgomery wrote: I'm embarrassed for you when you try to argue the Zionist side. The rest of the world isn't buying this crap.
Why do I get the distinct impression that most of the people here say שָׁלוֹם and wear the כִּיפָּה‬. I am sure many here could hold a conversation in Hebrew and Yiddish. The clear involvement of the US against the Assad regime, supporting ISIS white helmets, supporting fake gas attacks as in Douma, rejecting OPCW findings, setting up terrorist to fake more gas attacks by saying they will bomb Syria when it occurs. Attacking Muslim countries on the basis of extremely faulty intelligence reports (Iraq no WMD), bombing Syria before OPCW report. This screams to the world of Zionist conspiracy. The criminals are not the Muslims here. Montgomery is correct the world is NOT buying into it anymore.
Thank you and I have to agree with everything you've said. Except that in my opinion you are missing one important point. Not only is the Zionist apartheid regime using the United States, the United States are using them for America's interests. The pity that's been drummed up for the jews, and belabored for nearly 75 years, lends phony justification for America to support them. And that justifies America's running roughshod over the world since WW2.

Not only does the Zionist apartheid regime want and need Syria's land for their expansion, the US mission as spelled out in the PNAC told us that the conquest and destruction of both Syria and Iran are on the agenda. The question becomes, has the U.S. waited too long and allowed the window of opportunity to be slammed shut by Russia and China. I believe it has!

That's the way I see it and am willing to argue it with anyone. It makes no difference to me whether others believe it at this moment. And whether or not anybody is willing to compromise their holocaust support agenda to be honest and admit it.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:38 am

VFX wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:?

As to your complaint regarding sneering....every activity has its pros and cons. You want the pro, you gotta suffer the con. On every forum I have ever seen, its as you note a variety of pros with sneering always part of the cons. A small price to pay...and who worth engaging can't put up with a small price for a small return? Seems proportional to me.
Perhaps, but as the sneer are totally unrelated to the topic it is time-wasting and totally nonsense. Attempts to derail by bullying. If the jibes were unintentional then fine, there is give and take. This is not give and take: it is an attempt to dominate totally that nothing ever gets discussed here. This has been the pattern here for years.
Really, you've wanted to post here for years? Actually that explains a lot. Your boyfriend also felt left out or is he just being supportive?

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:42 am

montgomery wrote:
Not only does the Zionist apartheid regime want and need Syria's land for their expansion, the US mission as spelled out in the PNAC told us that the conquest and destruction of both Syria and Iran are on the agenda. The question becomes, has the U.S. waited too long and allowed the window of opportunity to be slammed shut by Russia and China. I believe it has!

That's the way I see it and am willing to argue it with anyone. It makes no difference to me whether others believe it at this moment. And whether or not anybody is willing to compromise their holocaust support agenda to be honest and admit it.
This thread is about the History of the conflict, and what you said Monty is part of that History, which I for one would like to know.

I think the US involvement goes against the United Nations General Assembly which stated below:

By the text titled “Protection of the Palestinian civilian population” — adopted by a vote of 120 in favour to 8 against with 45 abstentions — the Assembly demanded that Israel refrain from such actions and fully abide by its legal obligations under the Fourth Geneva Convention relating to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, of 12 August 1949.

It also deplored the firing of rockets from the Gaza Strip into Israeli civilian areas — and any actions that could endanger civilian lives — and called for urgent steps to ensure an immediate, durable and fully respected ceasefire, as well as for the exercise of maximum restraint by all parties.
I look forward to discussing this with you and earlier history of Israel including how the conflict started.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:14 am

VFX wrote: This thread is about the History of the conflict, and what you said Monty is part of that History, which I for one would like to know.
And yet when specifically invited to reference that history which is relevant to the point of anti-Muslim interests being "criminal" you post back: ? . Not much analysis/curiosity/engagement in such a waffle. Perhaps on being drawn out, you will have something to offer rather than a conclusion.

Part of snide, which is what you spend your response on, is criticizing people for whatever when as you say, the subject is the History of the conflict, and in my view more relevantly: the "solution" to the conflict? Something history usually has very little to say about and is more about support for any conflict. Amusing that. Not to be snide about history?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
VFX wrote: I think the US involvement goes against the United Nations General Assembly which stated below:

By the text titled “Protection of the Palestinian civilian population” — adopted by a vote of 120 in favour to 8 against with 45 abstentions — the Assembly demanded that Israel refrain from such actions and fully abide by its legal obligations under the Fourth Geneva Convention relating to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, of 12 August 1949.
Please connect your dots. How does the US "go against" the resolution referenced when such resolutions are NOT BINDING on members....even those who vote against it? And how is US responsible for what Israel does? You make no sense at all. I withdraw my request for you to fill in your ?. I can see, you aren't up to the task.

Or..... prove me wrong. When did who become criminal in what way? Please stick to the history, avoid the sneer.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:47 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Please connect your dots. How does the US "go against" the resolution referenced when such resolutions are NOT BINDING on members....even those who vote against it? And how is US responsible for what Israel does? You make no sense at all. I withdraw my request for you to fill in your ?. I can see, you aren't up to the task.
The US is going against the wishes of the United Nations, this for the world to see. What counts is how the people of the world see the US, their interactions with Zionism and their promulgation's of conflicts for which they should have no part. For you to withdraw, it will just be your normal coitus interruptus, a sign of your real stamina, a person who pretends to know more than he does. Everyone here can see your limp effort. The US and Israel have been long in collusion which is what must be discussed here. They have supported the Zionist cause for too long at the expense of other people. The US is responsible due to financing their operations.
U.S. Finalizes Deal to Give Israel $38 Billion in Military Aid. JERUSALEM — The United States has finalized a $38 billion package of military aid for Israel over the next 10 years. (2016) New York Times
There is nothing insignificant about 3.8 billion US dollars every year for the next 7 years.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:09 am

As to the exchange above, it is un-"deniably" true that anyone can post here (except for forum felons) and that members are not restricted in what they post, etc. OTOH I read the exchange a bit differently: just because something can and may be done doesn't mean doing it is a good idea. I remember that LSD people were taking in the '60s, before it was illegal. Anyway, this brings to mind what I always found myself asking co-workers when we were trying to make decisions: why are you focused on feelings of justice rather than the likely outcomes of different decisions and what you want the result to be? It could be frustrating. That's how I took the remarks. I recognize that my opinion is a minority one, but, {!#%@}, it's my opinion.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:05 am

VFX wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Please connect your dots. How does the US "go against" the resolution referenced when such resolutions are NOT BINDING on members....even those who vote against it? And how is US responsible for what Israel does? You make no sense at all. I withdraw my request for you to fill in your ?. I can see, you aren't up to the task.
The US is going against the wishes of the United Nations,
No. The US is acting in its own perceived interests rather than conform to the I'LL SAY IT AGAIN: NON-BINDING RESOLUTION of the GENERAL ASSEMBLY, not the UN or the only relevant: Security Counsel, which the USA did not even agree to. Said resolution has as much "authority" as any other irrelevant by design and function group resolving what some other group should do.....nonsense.
VFX wrote: this for the world to see.
Yes, that is the POINT.
VFX wrote: What counts is how the people of the world see the US, their interactions with Zionism and their promulgation's of conflicts for which they should have no part.
I disagree. What "counts" is what people DO..not what they see. And even the people are mostly irrelevant. Its what "the powers that be" see==>and decide to DO about it. "Powers that be"===variously defined, the key being they have some power. Even people do, from time to time and place to place, but not generally.
VFX wrote: The US and Israel have been long in collusion which is what must be discussed here.
You have been expressly invited to discuss this here and your response so far as been mindless dog whistles and ?. If you have any actual position/argument to stake out..... you should do so. If you want meaningless rhetoric....that is something else that all people can see...….and most want nothing to do with it either.
VFX wrote: They have supported the Zionist cause for too long at the expense of other people. .
All relationships help some people and harm others. The main benefit should be on balance to favor the american people. All people looking after their own concerns. I also question the "degree" and purpose and outcome of the USA support for Israel all based on what is in the interest of the USA. So far, you haven't approached this relevancy at all.
VFX wrote: The US is responsible due to financing their operations.
U.S. Finalizes Deal to Give Israel $38 Billion in Military Aid. JERUSALEM — The United States has finalized a $38 billion package of military aid for Israel over the next 10 years. (2016) New York Times
There is nothing insignificant about 3.8 billion US dollars every year for the next 7 years.
I won't read it again...but probably not a fair reading of the resolution......WHICH IS IRRELEVANT ANYWAY. Also, USA gave large sums to Egypt...and probably other ME entities as well.....of course including where our Navy Bases are?

An argument/position...……..is not a whine. do you actually have anything? Are you more Pro-Palestine or more anti-Israel or anti-Zionism? Asked in expectation you have nothing to fill in the ?.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:13 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: I won't read it again...but probably not a fair reading of the resolution......WHICH IS IRRELEVANT ANYWAY. Also, USA gave large sums to Egypt...and probably other ME entities as well.....of course including where our Navy Bases are?

An argument/position...……..is not a whine. do you actually have anything? Are you more Pro-Palestine or more anti-Israel or anti-Zionism? Asked in expectation you have nothing to fill in the ?.
What you fail to realize is that what counts is world perception. The people perceive Israel getting 3.8 billion US bucks a year which is pretty astonishing really.
However this thread is about the conflict. The conflict continues solely due to the US rejecting the UN General Assembly
recommendations. We are not talking about Egypt. I am not arguing I am stating fact. Money to Israel represents Miltary support (munitions) at the expense of the Palestinian people.
You may find most of the world support the Palestinians actually.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:15 am

Was the outcome wanted then a replica of the warped Rodoh forum here?
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:51 am

VFX wrote: The conflict continues solely due to the US rejecting the UN General Assembly
recommendations.
Worse than silly, thats simply moronic.

Why don't you tell us what happened after the Balfour Declaration of 1926 that led some entity to become a criminal? It will sharpen your discourse when and if Jeff returns and gives you the green light?
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:03 am

montgomery wrote: The pity that's been drummed up for the jews, and belabored for nearly 75 years, lends phony justification for America to support them. And that justifies America's running roughshod over the world since WW2.
Indeed, but it is forced pity, due to the alleged shoah.
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is over who gets what land and how it's controlled. Though both Jews and Arab Muslims date their claims to the land back a couple thousand years, the current political conflict began in the early 20th century. Jews fleeing persecution in Europe wanted to establish a national homeland in what was then an Arab- and Muslim-majority territory in the Ottoman and later British Empire. The outcome over time will be a one Nation State, with Israel being a territory of that State. Perhaps it could be called the Palestinian Zionist Federation. :D

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:18 am

VFX wrote:Indeed, but it is forced pity, due to the alleged shoah.
"Alleged"??? Well, let that pass, for now.
VFX wrote:The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is over who gets what land and how it's controlled. Though both Jews and Arab Muslims date their claims to the land back a couple thousand years, the current political conflict began in the early 20th century. Jews fleeing persecution in Europe wanted to establish a national homeland in what was then an Arab- and Muslim-majority territory in the Ottoman and later British Empire. The outcome over time will be a one Nation State, with Israel being a territory of that State. Perhaps it could be called the Palestinian Zionist Federation. :D
Now we're back on track. OK, it's clear (to me, at least) that the current Israel-Palestinian conflict is precisely, as you say, over what government has sovereignty over a piece of land and (mainly) who's allowed to go and live there.

That's an ancient, normal condition of the human race. It leads, as it does so often, to an endless round of strike and counter-strike. The Palestinians fire rockets into Israel and inspire terrorist attacks there. Israel responds with airstrikes or by clamping down still tighter on the movement of Palestinians in its territory. UN resolutions are and will remain irrelevant to this basic conflict. It's been talked about for many decades now, and diplomats have not managed to bring an end to the conflict.

So, there is is. I don't like it, but that looks to me like the future as far as the eye can see. I don't see a one-nation state anytime soon, and I don't expect to live long enough to see one. Possibly there will be one just before the next giant asteroid crashes into the earth.

But I emphasize that this conflict isn't a genocide in either direction. The Holocaust was unique in human history, and I (perhaps optimistically) don't expect it to be repeated. Ethnic cleansing such as we've seen in several African countries, in Cambodia, and in the Balkans, is horrific, but it's not the Holocaust.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:33 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote: Ethnic cleansing such as we've seen in several African countries, in Cambodia, and in the Balkans, is horrific, but it's not the Holocaust.
Mainly if not only because of the numbers involved.....or what?
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:01 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
So, there is is. I don't like it, but that looks to me like the future as far as the eye can see. I don't see a one-nation state anytime soon, and I don't expect to live long enough to see one. Possibly there will be one just before the next giant asteroid crashes into the earth.

But I emphasize that this conflict isn't a genocide in either direction. The Holocaust was unique in human history, and I (perhaps optimistically) don't expect it to be repeated. Ethnic cleansing such as we've seen in several African countries, in Cambodia, and in the Balkans, is horrific, but it's not the Holocaust.
:gp: Well thought out and a pleasure to read: thank you. An erudite scholar like yourself will be well aware that the Russians version of "the Great Patriotic War" is what they refer to as a holocaust. Very small deference is given to the alleged shoah.

It seems like there are two choices: two separate Nations with seeming insurmountable problems.
On the afternoon of May 14, 1948, hours before Britain’s Royal Navy flotilla would sail from Haifa harbor, marking the end of Britain’s mandatory rule over Palestine, leaders of the local Jewish community hastily assembled at the Tel Aviv Museum to hear the head of the Zionist leadership, David Ben-Gurion, declare, “The Land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people. …We hereby proclaim the establishment of the Jewish State … the State of Israel.
This was while Palestine was in a state of "civil war"

The Arabs rejected the Jewish state in 1948, which resulted in conflict. The Jews had expelled or encouraged the flight of some three hundred thousand Palestinians. The war that followed ended in 1949 with Israel expanding its boundaries to 78 percent of what had been Palestine.

The return of refugees from the 1948 war became the central issue of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It remains a crucial sticking point today.
Seventy years after Israel’s declaration of independence, the conflict appears to be returning to its roots. The Israeli government is demanding that Palestinians recognize the right of Jews to their own state in historic Palestine. The Palestinians are demanding the right to return home. The two goals cannot be reconciled.

This is why two separate Nations will not work: the only other solution is for the two peoples to Unite but still keep their own identities.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:21 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote: Ethnic cleansing such as we've seen in several African countries, in Cambodia, and in the Balkans, is horrific, but it's not the Holocaust.
Mainly if not only because of the numbers involved.....or what?
Many things, but prominent among them was the bureaucratization of the Nazi genocide, with carefully written-out rules for determining who was a Jew, detailed organization of the killing assigned to a particular branch of the government, and, in general, all the paraphernalia of a modern state coordinated to carry it out. The Hutu-Tutsi, Serbian-Bosnian, and other conflicts didn't have this kind of systematic buildup/execute aspect. Even the countless earlier pogroms in Russia and the expulsions of the Jews from England and Spain and the Crusader massacres in the Middle Ages were not that carefully planned. They were just done in a spasm of violence.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:42 pm

UOG: that is a significant difference...….but only in methodology/size of the job. In the other genocides/ethnic cleansings, the target group was smaller and easier to identify as if already wearing yellow stars for all to see, so not much organization/bureaurocracy was needed to commit the crimes. So, I'm back to still thinking its primarily the NUMBER killed that marks the Holocaust as most horrific. Its the OUTCOME measure, not the input measure that "counts." Been a few years, and I forget now about who killed the very most. Top three is the Holocaust, the Stalin's starving of the Ukraine to have it submit, then Mao's Cultural Leap? When it comes to numbers, China usually wins. Does it matter much if you and your family are killed because of religion or economics or location???? I don't think so. Each has its own wound.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:00 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:UOG: that is a significant difference...….but only in methodology/size of the job. In the other genocides/ethnic cleansings, the target group was smaller and easier to identify as if already wearing yellow stars for all to see, so not much organization/bureaurocracy was needed to commit the crimes. So, I'm back to still thinking its primarily the NUMBER killed that marks the Holocaust as most horrific. Its the OUTCOME measure, not the input measure that "counts." Been a few years, and I forget now about who killed the very most. Top three is the Holocaust, the Stalin's starving of the Ukraine to have it submit, then Mao's Cultural Leap? When it comes to numbers, China usually wins. Does it matter much if you and your family are killed because of religion or economics or location???? I don't think so. Each has its own wound.
Well, yeah, numbers do make some difference. But personally, as you noted, the death rate is the same for everyone: one per person. In terms of percent of the underlying population, the Pol Pot regime comes close to taking the palm. But there were major massacres in Indonesia under Suharto, and in the United States under just about every President up to Grover Cleveland.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:33 pm

Do I reveal my cultural bias not to really think of the European genocide of the First Peoples of America as "Horrific"? The inhumanity of "War" becoming all too acceptable? Why is the near extinction of the American Native Indians not viewed as a Holocaust on par with any of the others?

Same for Aboriginals in Australia??

Hooman attitudes and values. Its a trip.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by montgomery » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:34 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
VFX wrote:Indeed, but it is forced pity, due to the alleged shoah.
"Alleged"??? Well, let that pass, for now.
VFX wrote:The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is over who gets what land and how it's controlled. Though both Jews and Arab Muslims date their claims to the land back a couple thousand years, the current political conflict began in the early 20th century. Jews fleeing persecution in Europe wanted to establish a national homeland in what was then an Arab- and Muslim-majority territory in the Ottoman and later British Empire. The outcome over time will be a one Nation State, with Israel being a territory of that State. Perhaps it could be called the Palestinian Zionist Federation. :D
Now we're back on track. OK, it's clear (to me, at least) that the current Israel-Palestinian conflict is precisely, as you say, over what government has sovereignty over a piece of land and (mainly) who's allowed to go and live there.

That's an ancient, normal condition of the human race. It leads, as it does so often, to an endless round of strike and counter-strike. The Palestinians fire rockets into Israel and inspire terrorist attacks there. Israel responds with airstrikes or by clamping down still tighter on the movement of Palestinians in its territory. UN resolutions are and will remain irrelevant to this basic conflict. It's been talked about for many decades now, and diplomats have not managed to bring an end to the conflict.

So, there is is. I don't like it, but that looks to me like the future as far as the eye can see. I don't see a one-nation state anytime soon, and I don't expect to live long enough to see one. Possibly there will be one just before the next giant asteroid crashes into the earth.

But I emphasize that this conflict isn't a genocide in either direction. The Holocaust was unique in human history, and I (perhaps optimistically) don't expect it to be repeated. Ethnic cleansing such as we've seen in several African countries, in Cambodia, and in the Balkans, is horrific, but it's not the Holocaust.
The debate ignores the most important issue of all and that is America's protection of the Israeli crime of apartheid. And that prevents the United Nations from being able to intervene with a solution.

Due in part to religious superstitions that maintain the claim for the 'chosen people', blah, blah. But also because U.S. interests are being served by this criminal support of the Zionist gameplan. The conquest of the M.E. as detailed by the PNAC agenda. (Wesley Clarke spilled the beans)

That's where you should be putting your emphasis on discussing Upton, because I believe you're completely aware of those facts.

Both Zionist and American interests are being served. It could result in another 911 style of attack but of much larger consequences. Ultimately, until the Palestinian people are completely crushed, the nuclear threat is on the table. Americans need to be aware of that and weigh what is in their best interests, then stop their support of evil in the interest of their futures. At the present, arrogance causes Americans to believe they are untouchable.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:36 pm

Monty: when both sides practice apartheid, how do you only blame one side?

The UN does not intervene ANYWHERE. It will establish peace keeping forces when BOTH SIDES invite them in. This is a real basic lack of knowledge/history/formal purposes on your part.

Again...both sides claim/feel they are chosen.

I don't think investing in foreign wars is in the interest of the USA, or any other country, but I agree the powers that be must profit from it, so that is what is happening. Just as other actors find it in their interest to oppose the USA/Israel combo using Palestinians as a proxy staked goat?

There is no need to conquer the ME....as long as they sell us their oil. Its why we gave the land back after we did conquer the Ottoman Empire. Like China in Africa today....don't conquer, just bargain.

Where specifically should Upton or anyone else be putting their emphasis? Its not clear at all.

Blather.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by VFX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:30 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Why is the near extinction of the American Native Indians not viewed as a Holocaust on par with any of the others?
The term Holocuast refers to the Shoah: The lower-case “holocaust” has described the violent deaths of large groups of people probably since the 18th century, according the Oxford English Dictionary. Before World War II, the word was used by Winston Churchill and others to refer to the genocide of Armenians during World War I.
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