The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:35 pm

Courts: I was only thinking of the testimony brought forth at these trials. don't care about the judges, or one judge. Most of the german military pleaded no guilty by way of "just following orders." Not "I didn't do it." Lots of exceptions.

Note the other basis for accepting what neither of us knows: the BODY of evidence and various different sources.

also of some interest....the always interesting question for all of us individually is "Why/how do we think what we think, and how/when do we change our minds?" For this, it doesn't matter at all "what" we believe but rather how such beliefs are formed...…..and how they are changed. I'll leave the details to anyone who is interested in better understanding themselves.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by montgomery » Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:09 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Courts: I was only thinking of the testimony brought forth at these trials. don't care about the judges, or one judge. Most of the german military pleaded no guilty by way of "just following orders." Not "I didn't do it." Lots of exceptions.

Note the other basis for accepting what neither of us knows: the BODY of evidence and various different sources.

also of some interest....the always interesting question for all of us individually is "Why/how do we think what we think, and how/when do we change our minds?" For this, it doesn't matter at all "what" we believe but rather how such beliefs are formed...…..and how they are changed. I'll leave the details to anyone who is interested in better understanding themselves.
One thing I'm coming to understand about myself is that i'm being hardened into becoming a holocaust denier because of the bad behavior of the people on this forum who can't accept a person being skeptical. Have you taken part in that bad behavior or can you claim to have stayed on the high road. If it's the former then you have no claim to being able to start philosophizing on people changing their minds. If your slate is clean then maybe you are raising some good points.

For now I'll just accept that you've risen above the rabble. And that calls for some stern condemnation of their tactics.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 pm

montgomery wrote: One thing I'm coming to understand about myself is that i'm being hardened into becoming a holocaust denier …...who can't accept a person being skeptical.
Well, thats wrong headed, just an excuse, about five different ways. A denier of anything is not a skeptic about anything. A nuance in the terms:

Denier: One who denies (aka a decision/position reached)
Skeptical: Marked by or given to doubt (aka: a decision held in abeyance at most)
montgomery wrote: One thing I'm coming to understand about myself is that i'm being hardened into becoming a holocaust denier because of the bad behavior of the people on this forum
Facts are independent of who is espousing support or denial.
montgomery wrote: Have you taken part in that bad behavior or can you claim to have stayed on the high road.
I play all the notes of the keyboard. Put down humor can be fun in its own way, just as the high road can provide a different insight. Why not use both?
montgomery wrote: If it's the former then you have no claim to being able to start ....
Again: ideas stand on their own regardless of who advocates/advises/mentions them. I suppose: if the advice/option is coupled to some claim of personal authority, then such a connection is valid as a sidebar.....aka: the idea advanced still stands or falls on its own.
montgomery wrote: If your slate is clean then maybe you are raising some good points.
No. Points are valid or not based on their own merit.
montgomery wrote: For now I'll just accept that you've risen above the rabble. And that calls for some stern condemnation of their tactics.
No. Everyone to gain/lose as they may according to their goals and desires, capabilities and patience.....etc.

Seems you want to deal with personalities (who agrees or disagrees with you) rather than ideas presented. Know what I mean?
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by montgomery » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:42 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
montgomery wrote: One thing I'm coming to understand about myself is that i'm being hardened into becoming a holocaust denier …...who can't accept a person being skeptical.
Well, thats wrong headed, just an excuse, about five different ways. A denier of anything is not a skeptic about anything. A nuance in the terms:
Quote me correctly and I stand behind what I've said.
Denier: One who denies (aka a decision/position reached)
Skeptical: Marked by or given to doubt (aka: a decision held in abeyance at most)
Agreed.
montgomery wrote: One thing I'm coming to understand about myself is that i'm being hardened into becoming a holocaust denier because of the bad behavior of the people on this forum
Facts are independent of who is espousing support or denial.[/quote]

Agree.
montgomery wrote: Have you taken part in that bad behavior or can you claim to have stayed on the high road.
I play all the notes of the keyboard. Put down humor can be fun in its own way, just as the high road can provide a different insight. Why not use both?[/quote]

And I'm finished with you for now.

I'll mention your bad behavior if that's what you choose to do. Decent people can't put up with childish behavior and personal insults forever without it having a negative effect on them. I'm at least to the point of being able to say I dislike some of the bad behavers. That makes it more difficult to accept anything they say.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:53 am

montgomery wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
montgomery wrote: One thing I'm coming to understand about myself is that i'm being hardened into becoming a holocaust denier …...who can't accept a person being skeptical.
Well, thats wrong headed, just an excuse, about five different ways. A denier of anything is not a skeptic about anything. A nuance in the terms:
Quote me correctly and I stand behind what I've said.
Well.....I certainly quoted you correctly by using the quote function of this forum. Its the implication/interpretation/application of your quote that you disagree with. And on that I agree that you can chose not to think about the criticism by understanding the implications one way. But if you want to add to your understanding, you can interpret my response in other ways and accomplish that goal. It all depends on what your goal is...…………………..


xxxxxx
montgomery wrote: One thing I'm coming to understand about myself is that i'm being hardened into becoming a holocaust denier because of the bad behavior of the people on this forum
Facts are independent of who is espousing support or denial.[/quote]

Agree. [/quote] Thats a good first step, in recognition. but if you incorporate what you agree with into your actual thinking: you wouldn't repeatedly make that error. In principle you agree, in practice you don't. An excellent learning opportunity. Given the power of habit patterns vs the agony of changing one's mind: good luck.

xxxxxxx
montgomery wrote: Have you taken part in that bad behavior or can you claim to have stayed on the high road.
I play all the notes of the keyboard. Put down humor can be fun in its own way, just as the high road can provide a different insight. Why not use both?[/quote]

And I'm finished with you for now. [/quote] Ah, the run away and don't think about it response. A "high denial" defense mechanism. So....why not use both?


xxxxxxxxxx
montgomery wrote: I'll mention your bad behavior ...
But you don't. You are speaking/thinking/emoting from a vacuum. An unthinking mantra if you will. Another "In principle" vs "as applied" distinction. Until you identify the "bad behavior" you disagree with, how can you legitimately discuss the idea with any import? Its just an exercise in labeling...…..and given you confuse the message with the messenger.... this foray into general baseless criticism is not valid.

xxxxxxxxx
montgomery wrote: I'll mention your bad behavior if that's what you choose to do. Decent people can't put up with childish behavior and personal insults forever without it having a negative effect on them.
Wut ?/?-?==?? Not any standard definition of "decent people." An erroneous conflation of childish behavior with personal insults. The straw man and impossiblility of "forever". And the easily dismissed assumption of negative effects. Quite the irrelevant roll. Feel better?
montgomery wrote: I'm at least to the point of being able to say I dislike some of the bad behavers.
Of course. Recognizing that simple fact will arm you to better deal with them. What the bad behavers have to say still remains an independent issue.
montgomery wrote: That makes it more difficult to accept anything they say.
No it doesn't....unless you choose to make that error. That logical fallacy. That excuse to refuse to deal with the substance of their disagreement. Its simply a dodge: find any excuse not to challenge yourself.

Denial: not just a river in Egypt. Its a window into the soul and character of the (dis) believer. Ain't that a kick?
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by VFX » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:24 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Its simply a dodge: find any excuse not to challenge yourself.

Denial: not just a river in Egypt. Its a window into the soul and character of the (dis) believer. Ain't that a kick?
How can anyone dodge you, there are no arguments to dodge just emotional rhetoric. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:30 pm

VFX: I agree. Everything is emotional for emotional people. You're not following your own professed goal of lofty issue driven discussions. Going right to the personal when you have no other thoughts? Heh, heh.

Sucks...…. I can only guess. No substance at all? …………..weak.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by montgomery » Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:43 pm

Suffice to say that anyone who can actually support the horrendous slaughter of Palestinians and the Israeli apartheid regime, has lost credibility and is suspect on anything else they try to say on this section of the forum.

Sadly, most of the holocaust promotion side only spew insults most of the time anyway.

The holocaust can still be promoted without having to promote the current crimes against humanity by the Zionists.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:56 pm

Monty: what is your alternative?
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by montgomery » Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:04 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Monty: what is your alternative?
No decent person should be supportive of the Israeli apartheid state.

The only reason it hasn't been 'pushed into the sea and drowned (the regime that is) is because of America's support of its evil. Period! Full stop!

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:04 am

montgomery wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Monty: what is your alternative?

I note neither of your two points in response address the legitimate question asked. Are you that unfocused or do you think anyone else is?[/quote]
montgomery wrote: No decent person should be supportive of the Israeli apartheid state.
They should instead be supportive ......................of what? One assume full rights for all arabs living within their borders which in itself would lead to a Mulsim majority state with said Muslims more likely than not desiring the genocide of all Jewish people. You see thats the actual issue in the Israel/Palestine dispute: the Muslim population wants their land back, and the Jews want to keep it. I hope you can see the issue as you seem dedicatedly oblivious to it. "Issues" exist for a reason. Think on it. Even more fanciful as if living in a cave alone on a remote island: advocate for a right of return? Name one instance in History where that has been done. In relevant application, I can't think of one. Think on: why that is the case. [/quote]
montgomery wrote: The only reason it hasn't been 'pushed into the sea and drowned (the regime that is) is because of America's support of its evil. Period! Full stop!
[/quote] Yes, thats what the surrounding Arab states thought in 1947 when they all tried to genocide the Jews with the UK and the USA doing nothing to help. I agree USA support then increased over time, but USA support is NOT the "only" reason Israel has not been pushed into the sea. I think the Israelis have "something" to do with their own survival..........just as the Arabs have something to do with their repetitive defeats. Think "tribalism" as it plays into many of the key issues in the Middle East. Ever read about it?
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:23 am

I see the issue clearly and most of the rest of the world's people of decency see it clearly too. If not for America's support of apartheid, the situation could be settled peacefully. The only real issue that exists is that the Zionists are intent on stealing more and more Palestinian land.

All the settlements should be torn down and their evil inhabitants chased back to the land which is declared to be theirs. Then America needs to take part in the policing of the Zionists to keep them in their proper place. Anybody who supports that evil Zionist apartheid regime needs psychiatric help!

Disgusting!

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:39 am

Oh Monty: THE FACT IS: a two state solution has been rejected by the Palestinians TWICE because of additional issues like dithering on exact boundary locations and moreso the Right of Return: all in an end goal of being X10 WORSE than apartheid but the elimination of Jews from the area aka the formal position of wiping Israel off the map. What do decent people think of this? This being the case, I see no peaceful settlement likely....not until the Palestinians get beat up enough to deal with the reality of their situation.

Do the Zionist want more land? ========================>OF COURSE THEY DO. Just like the Palestinians...….like growing populations EVERYWHERE. As stated just above, this is just another issue on which the Jews and the Arabs are exactly the same and there are a number of "real" issues.

Deal with reality: the settlements are only going to be expanded. The arabs want to keep agitating for "more" which only positions them to get less. THAT IS REALITY. THAT IS REAL POLITIK. That is the way the world works. The evil Zionists have repeatedly offered AND GIVEN: land for peace. The arab/Palestinians reject this and choose war.

Just look. Deying reality requires psychiatric help too.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:49 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Oh Monty: THE FACT IS: a two state solution has been rejected by the Palestinians TWICE because of ....................etc.
Not even close to addressing the issue. Nobody said either the Palestinians or the Zionist will name the solution.

I'm not into personal insults the way your accomplices are so I won't accuse you directly. I'll just say that the argument you are trying to float and the side you represent are just totally DISGUSTING!

Shame!

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:58 am

montgomery wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Oh Monty: THE FACT IS: a two state solution has been rejected by the Palestinians TWICE because of ....................etc.
Not even close to addressing the issue. Nobody said either the Palestinians or the Zionist will name the solution.
Well. You really are a mess aren't you. Can't even follow your own line of argument whether its being agreed or disagreed with, modified or rejected. No wonder all you can do is focus on your own emotions. Why are you on a forum where thinking is so often the touchstone?

WHAT YOU SAID WAS:
montgomery wrote:I see the issue clearly and most of the rest of the world's people of decency see it clearly too. If not for America's support of apartheid, the situation could be settled peacefully. The only real issue that exists is that the Zionists are intent on stealing more and more Palestinian land.

All the settlements should be torn down and their evil inhabitants chased back to the land which is declared to be theirs. Then America needs to take part in the policing of the Zionists to keep them in their proper place. Anybody who supports that evil Zionist apartheid regime needs psychiatric help!

Disgusting!
This is nothing other than a statement you think a two state solution is the desired outcome in the Middle East (yes....I know many details are left out, like most likely your two state solution is one that allows the Arabs a final solution regarding the Jews. And in your mind this final solution is "right" whereas an apartheid Israel is "wrong".....you know, morally). So...as this is the ONLY interpretation possible, my response is directly germane to what you posted...…..but you can't follow your own argument, you have no ideas of your own, so you revert to not thinking and simply lashing out calling the situation disgusting. Such a position only keeps the parties at war. Why do you take this no thinking emotional position?

I challenge you Monty: name the issue you are thinking of? You can't do it. You just want to throw a hissy fit.
montgomery wrote: I'm not into personal insults the way your accomplices are so I won't accuse you directly.
Oh Monty: like the Palestinians saying they want peace and then not agreeing to it and starting another war, you say you won't accuse and then go ahead immediately and do exactly that. Both cases quite self defeating and LOONEY TUNES in CAPS. So wrapped up in yourself you don't understand what you do. Since I'm not affected (directly as you point out) by your lunacy, it rather cute if not short lived in any interest.
montgomery wrote: I'll just say that the argument you are trying to float and the side you represent are just totally DISGUSTING! Shame!
OK........please state as precisely as you wish what argument you think I am trying to float. In my view, so far, all I have floated are basic facts. While I agree many of the facts regarding the Zionist dispute are disgusting, that doesn't mean they aren't facts. Is that what prevents you from functioning? All emotion and no vision?

We'll see. If you aren't responsive, or make an honest attempt, I will stop responding to you. Nothing you have posted is upsetting....just a waste of time. Know what I mean?

Your play.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:34 am

Litvak & Webman, From Empathy to Denial: Arab Responses to the Holocaust, have an interesting discussion showing how Holocaust denial in the Arab countries was shaped by a political agenda and followed developments in Israel as well as the changing views about and importance of the Holocaust in the west; Arab denial was at once a response to the consolidation of Israel, a means of opposition to and claims against Zionism, a psychological mechanism to deny victimhood to perceived enemies, and an explanation for Israel's postwar successes especially 1948.

Arab intellectuals, political leaders, and opinion shapers, Litvak & Webman say, argued that the Holocaust was a hoax and a lie developed by the Zionists to legitimize Israel and Zionist ideology and to divert from Israel's persecution of the Palestinians. Denial was a means to shatter Israel's pretensions and "demolish[...] the broader historical and ideological edifice" on which Zionism and Israel stood.

Further, the authors show how denial among Arabs was unscientific in the extreme, took on radically conspiratorial forms, and drew on western denial, including its major themes and techniques but added in some alterations, often utilizing more blatant fabrications and false claims even than western deniers.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:19 pm

Denial is one issue, the Holocaust is another. A third is "what to do now." While everything is related to everything else to one degree or another, all three also stand on their own. Calling anything disgusting is disgusting itself only mostly offset if WHY it is disgusting and solutions to make it less disgusting are offered. Absent the additional discussion, talking to such one note deniers is disgusting to anyone seeking a solution.

Solution: no one alive gets all they want, but history moves on and the grandkiddies are happy. Want world Peace? Kill everyone over 18. world will be ok for about 20 years.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:19 pm

Litvak & Webman also identify a trend of “justification” of the Holocaust in the Arab world especially among Islamists. As with our deniers, the “justifiers” often mixed in denial with justification and, depending, regret that the job wasn’t finished or celebration for the extermination that occurred. As with denial, outright fabrication of documents and incidents characterized the justifiers’ advocacy. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion were treated as a valid historical source on Jewish perfidy. Justifiers also relied on Mein Kampf. 9/11 CTs entered into the picture more recently.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by montgomery » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:27 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
montgomery wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Oh Monty: THE FACT IS: a two state solution has been rejected by the Palestinians TWICE because of ....................etc.
Not even close to addressing the issue. Nobody said either the Palestinians or the Zionist will name the solution.
Well. You really are a mess aren't you. Can't even follow your own line of argument whether its being agreed or disagreed with, modified or rejected. No wonder all you can do is focus on your own emotions. Why are you on a forum where thinking is so often the touchstone?
I simply said that the Palestinians wouldn't be dictating the solution, or something to that effect? And I don't see how tearing down the settlements would necessarily dictate a two state solution.
WHAT YOU SAID WAS:
montgomery wrote:I see the issue clearly and most of the rest of the world's people of decency see it clearly too. If not for America's support of apartheid, the situation could be settled peacefully. The only real issue that exists is that the Zionists are intent on stealing more and more Palestinian land.

All the settlements should be torn down and their evil inhabitants chased back to the land which is declared to be theirs. Then America needs to take part in the policing of the Zionists to keep them in their proper place. Anybody who supports that evil Zionist apartheid regime needs psychiatric help!

Disgusting!
This is nothing other than a statement you think a two state solution is the desired outcome in the Middle East (yes....I know many details are left out, like most likely your two state solution is one that allows the Arabs a final solution regarding the Jews. And in your mind this final solution is "right" whereas an apartheid Israel is "wrong".....you know, morally). So...as this is the ONLY interpretation possible, my response is directly germane to what you posted...…..but you can't follow your own argument, you have no ideas of your own, so you revert to not thinking and simply lashing out calling the situation disgusting. Such a position only keeps the parties at war. Why do you take this no thinking emotional position?

I challenge you Monty: name the issue you are thinking of? You can't do it. You just want to throw a hissy fit.
montgomery wrote: I'm not into personal insults the way your accomplices are so I won't accuse you directly.
Oh Monty: like the Palestinians saying they want peace and then not agreeing to it and starting another war, you say you won't accuse and then go ahead immediately and do exactly that. Both cases quite self defeating and LOONEY TUNES in CAPS. So wrapped up in yourself you don't understand what you do. Since I'm not affected (directly as you point out) by your lunacy, it rather cute if not short lived in any interest.
montgomery wrote: I'll just say that the argument you are trying to float and the side you represent are just totally DISGUSTING! Shame!
OK........please state as precisely as you wish what argument you think I am trying to float. In my view, so far, all I have floated are basic facts. While I agree many of the facts regarding the Zionist dispute are disgusting, that doesn't mean they aren't facts. Is that what prevents you from functioning? All emotion and no vision?

We'll see. If you aren't responsive, or make an honest attempt, I will stop responding to you. Nothing you have posted is upsetting....just a waste of time. Know what I mean?

Your play.
Out of all that, which is mostly insults and personal attacks, you seem to want me to tell you what idea you're trying to float? Well, simply put, you're siding against the Palestinian people and are opposing a two state solution. And that's disgusting! The reason why it's disgusting is because any other solution is just a cheap sham. Israel is intent on apartheid and has no intent to ever allow the Palestinian people to live side by side with the Jews.

However, I can understand that your argument could be that they do intend a one state solution. But the issue is, the status quo shows no indication that it can ever happen. It obviously won't. It's as if you think that I'm not aware of how the Zionist regime has pushed the Palestinians into separate small cantons with none of the necessities of life.

Have I answered your question(s).

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:53 pm

Congrats Monty, thats a semi-coherent response. thank you.

1.
I simply said that the Palestinians wouldn't be dictating the solution, or something to that effect? And I don't see how tearing down the settlements would necessarily dictate a two state solution.
I can't imagine any situation in which Israel would tear down the settlements absent there being a bargained for expectation of long term peace and that only happens in two ways: 1: Kill or disperse all the Palestinians into other Arab lands and defend the land you get that way. No reason to tear down settlements in that scenario. The other outcome would be a two state solution. Do you see any other options? Necessarily or otherwise?? I can think of a few, but I dislike pointless dithering.

2.
Out of all that, which is mostly insults and personal attacks, you seem to want me to tell you what idea you're trying to float?
This only confirms your emotional relationship to the subject. My own view is "all that" is a plea for you to offer substantive points rather than your meaningless whine. Substantive points is how progress is made. Incessant whining is for the mentally incompetent.

3.
Well, simply put, you're siding against the Palestinian people and are opposing a two state solution.
copy and past where I said anything like that. What was behind what I did say was that there is no reasonable expectation for, nor whining against the formation of, a two state solution WHEN THE PALESTINIANS KEEP REJECTING PEACE PLANS that would give them just that. Try responding on point.

4.
And that's disgusting!
I agree.....and its the Palestinian Leadership doing it to themselves and the majority of the people who want peace over the fairy tale of a right of return. You know: adult realization.

5.
The reason why it's disgusting is because any other solution is just a cheap sham.
What other solution are you referring to since none, except what I just posted above in this post, has been mentioned? You do recognize that calling a solution disgusting doesn't actually identify what you are thinking of.?

6.
Israel is intent on apartheid and has no intent to ever allow the Palestinian people to live side by side with the Jews.
Facts, evidence, history is against you. THIRD TIME: its the Palestinians (actually their leadership which I do keep in two different groups of consideration....with the Arabs generally as a third, and Muslims as a Fourth.....lots of overlap....but they are not all the same) that have rejected peace plans with definite borders for two state solution. do you deny this?

7.
However, I can understand that your argument could be that they do intend a one state solution. But the issue is, the status quo shows no indication that it can ever happen.
I haven't said anything like this except again in this very post as one of two possibilities to what YOU mean. Whining prevents actual points being made. Status quo is status quo. It MEANS nothing changes. Every status quo shows no indication of anything. A one state solution would result if either the Palestinians or the Jews are eliminated. I see this possibly happening by diaspora after a severe near total war by one side vs the other. The Arabs have tried 7-8 times, so the Jews losing doesn't seem likely.

8.
It obviously won't. It's as if you think that I'm not aware of how the Zionist regime has pushed the Palestinians into separate small cantons with none of the necessities of life.
When all you do is whine and call whatever you don't identify "disgusting", no one can tell what you are aware of.....even to insult you or to make fun of. Being pointless is like that. Its the Jews and the Arabs acting together that has made the Palestinian enclaves into open air prisons. Not accepting peace plans does that. The necessities of life are provided....but a life worth living requires more than that. Correctly identifying your enemies and possible solutions and the limitations of what you can get even if willing to die for it has a lot to do with it do.

9.
Have I answered your question(s).
No, but you moved in that direction. Your next move could be in any direction. And thats ok.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by montgomery » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:29 pm

Let's look at the negotiating positions of each side on a two state solution.

The zionist regime has stolen nearly all the lands that were proclaimed to be Palestinian people's land. And there's no indication that this is just a negotiating position. It's cast in stone of course and it's not going to diminish. In fact, it's continuing even as negotiating goes on. There is no negotiations by the Zionist side.

And the Palestinian side negotiates with that spirit in mind. A starting position of, wipe them out or send them packing and settle with something less maybe?

Are you suggesting that the Palestinians side start from a position of accepting all the settlements and settling with what they currently have? My position if I were negotiating for the Palestinian side would be to start. Burn all the settlements to the ground, and then let's start to negotiate. Certainly no more extreme a position than that of the Zionists.

I consider your position disgusting. Every bit as disgusting as South Africa's apartheid regime.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:48 pm

Monty: I assume you actually do know the history/positions of the parties and for some reason argue here as if you don't.

Why is that?

If you don't know what the "position" of the Israel gubment is regarding land for a two state solution is: why should anyone talk to you? To claim its to steal all the Palestinian Land and that is cast in stone is just ignorant to the point of idiocy. Please state what the boundaries demarcations have been the last two times the Palestinians rejected UN and Israel supported peace plans.

If you can't do that: go away and read more than you have.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:54 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Litvak & Webman also identify a trend of “justification” of the Holocaust in the Arab world especially among Islamists. As with our deniers, the “justifiers” often mixed in denial with justification and, depending, regret that the job wasn’t finished or celebration for the extermination that occurred. As with denial, outright fabrication of documents and incidents characterized the justifiers’ advocacy. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion were treated as a valid historical source on Jewish perfidy. Justifiers also relied on Mein Kampf. 9/11 CTs entered into the picture more recently.
This goes back a long way. As a graduate student in the mid-1960s, before the Six-Day War, I knew an Egyptian engineer named Ahmad, who said approximately this to me: "They tell me about all the terrible things Hitler did, such as killing all those people. On that one point he was right."

Wherever one is on the current miserable state of affairs, one must not forget the elephant in the room: Hamas controls Lebanon with an iron hand. (Lebanon used to be the least militant of all Israel's Arab neighbors.) And Hamas has, according to Woodward's new book, over 100,000 rockets. On this basis, Woodward gives Kushner and Trump high marks for the visit to Saudia Arabia, which was followed by the appointment of a new, perhaps more liberal Crown Prince.

Hamas may eventually bring about the destruction of Israel, but before it does, Israel will use its nuclear weapons. Favor the Arabs, or favor the Israelis, that is the worst possible conclusion to the conflict, either way.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by montgomery » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:58 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Monty: I assume you actually do know the history/positions of the parties and for some reason argue here as if you don't.

Why is that?

If you don't know what the "position" of the Israel gubment is regarding land for a two state solution is: why should anyone talk to you? To claim its to steal all the Palestinian Land and that is cast in stone is just ignorant to the point of idiocy. Please state what the boundaries demarcations have been the last two times the Palestinians rejected UN and Israel supported peace plans.

If you can't do that: go away and read more than you have.
Why would anyone care what the claims of the Zionist regime are/is? The facts on the ground are much more important. I won't even try to find a map of the remaining small amount of land that the Palestinains have been pushed into trying to live on. We're all aware of that!

My position hasn't changed on the Zionist regime being totally to blame. If you have any more points to raise then do so. Only please try to act like an adult and stop the personal attack on me. Over and out if that's your choice.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by montgomery » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:10 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:

Hamas may eventually bring about the destruction of Israel, but before it does, Israel will use its nuclear weapons. Favor the Arabs, or favor the Israelis, that is the worst possible conclusion to the conflict, either way.
That's the same as saying that Hamas won't bring about the destruction of Israel. I think that if you put all of Hamas's rockets in one place and blew them up, it wouldn't be enough fireworks to destroy everything on a 1 hectare plot.

As opposed to the U.S. supplied firepower of the Zionist regime with each cruise missile completely annihilating all life on a 1/4 hectare piece. (1-1.5 acres)

The really scary thing about it is, the Zionists may use nuclear weapons as a first strike on Iran and that could be the beginning of a nuclear war. I don't think there's any other situation in the world where the use of nuclear weapons is so likely.

And that's the reason why the crazy a--ed support of the apartheid regime has to end. Not to leave them on their own because that would almost surely result in their use of nuclear weapons. But to have the U.S. stop preventing the U.N. from policing an equitable settlement of a two state solution as prescribed by the U.N. already.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:27 pm

montgomery wrote: Why would anyone care what the claims of the Zionist regime are/is?
No one does. Why do you raise it now for the first time?...……..Oh...…...I see. You can't follow your own argument...…… Nevermind.
montgomery wrote: The facts on the ground are much more important.
Yep, I totally agree.
montgomery wrote: I won't even try to find a map of the remaining small amount of land that the Palestinains have been pushed into trying to live on. We're all aware of that!
and some of us are aware thats not even the relevant issue as it relates to the boundaries of the Two State Solution that Israel has agreed to. Again....you can't follow the argument. Or, you don't know the History. Hint: You don't need a map, two words describe the often stated beginning border proposal that the Palestinians rejected.
montgomery wrote: My position hasn't changed on the Zionist regime being totally to blame.
Fairytale Land: were one side is all wrong, and the other side is all right. Silly...…………….for you: I'll add: Disgusting. You argue like a Palestinian Leader.
montgomery wrote: If you have any more points to raise then do so.
No thanks.....there isn't enough of a return. You have to ENGAGE the other side. Ha, ha...…..you argue like a Palestinian Leader. I can see why the Israelis have been forced into simply stealing your land.
montgomery wrote: Only please try to act like an adult and stop the personal attack on me. Over and out if that's your choice.
I can see that in your all right vs all wrong world that calling someone disgusting is all right and the reply that you can't follow your own argument is all wrong or a personal attack. You can't follow your own argument, or all too often be actually responsive. That is a personal attack if you feel yourself above reproach, or valuable feed back if you want the truth. so...…..over and out it is.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:22 pm

Because I'm interested in "facts" instead of argument or attitude, I thought I'd look it up.

Image

It is indeed worse than I thought......leading me to believe my understanding of the land for peace/two state solution is not up to date. I was thinking that the solution always started with the "1967 borders" and then got modified to recognize legal and illegal Israeli settlements as the bargaining might consider?

Hmmmm....goes to show when your position is for the other side to die and no longer exist, you put at risk having any land at all?

Looks about like a done deal to me...………………..
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by montgomery » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:38 pm

like I said, DISGUSTING.

But it's useful because it's illustrative of the closed minded attitude of the H.P.'ers

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:20 am

:frown:
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by montgomery » Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:58 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote::frown:
You lost it bobbo when you went out of your way to be disgusting. That works for me!

And now you've lost me too.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:33 pm

Well Monty.….its just a defense mechanism. I did not go out of my way except to be responsive....something you should try. Your claim of "disgusting" is too repetitive and undefined to have any meaning, aka, your posts are meaningless. I actually am somewhat invigored that when someone who "cares' about the subject as much as you do has no argument to make to support whatever your position might actually be....you don't have any position. Just emotions. I assume you are "Pro Palestinian" for the variety of reasons that apply and just can't deal with as you did say: "The Reality on the Ground."

Well....be forwarned that if you can't argue against the Zionist position with anything other than "its disgusting"....the next map of the area will show even less Green. Know what I mean?

Does remind me of the joke a comedian said about Native American Indians complaining about their life on reservations: "if they wanted their land, they should have fought harder." Yes...its disgusting and burns if you lost such a war.....but thats how History works.....it moves on....burying those who can't think past their own defeat.

In quick review for what the most current two state boundaries was...I did run across several news clips of Yassar Arafat declaring his opposition to peace with Israel. Heh, heh===>Very Stupid/short sighted man.

Even kinda disgusting. Nothing will change (except to get worse) until you change something. Can you change ANYTHING Monty?

…………………………………………………….. as always, I pity the kiddies.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:33 pm

montgomery wrote:Suffice to say that anyone who can actually support the horrendous slaughter of Palestinians and the Israeli apartheid regime, has lost credibility and is suspect on anything else they try to say on this section of the forum.

Sadly, most of the holocaust promotion side only spew insults most of the time anyway.
Insults are all they have. If they had facts on their side, they would share them. They don't have the facts on their side. Emotional shrieking and insults are necessary to keep a rational discussion of the facts off the table. For if rational discussion were allowed, the whole holocaust narrative would collapse.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:46 pm

Srsly? That's what you returned for? :lol:


Where ya been?
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by montgomery » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:18 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
montgomery wrote:Suffice to say that anyone who can actually support the horrendous slaughter of Palestinians and the Israeli apartheid regime, has lost credibility and is suspect on anything else they try to say on this section of the forum.

Sadly, most of the holocaust promotion side only spew insults most of the time anyway.
Insults are all they have. If they had facts on their side, they would share them. They don't have the facts on their side. Emotional shrieking and insults are necessary to keep a rational discussion of the facts off the table. For if rational discussion were allowed, the whole holocaust narrative would collapse.
Thank you for your comment Mary. I very much do suspect their motives are exactly as you put it. I can't think of any other reason why they would be acting the way they do.

The issue being personal and emotional for some of them would work for maybe one or two of them if they even tried to say that's the reason for their bad behavior. But none of them do.

So please join us and please, as I've asked everyone else who is a skeptic or a denier, don't fall into the trap of behaving the way they do. We have to rise above that and as we do we demonstrate our decency in a small way at least. As opposed to eggs, balmoral, and the worst of their rabble! They've made their reputation and shown their lack of credibility.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:20 pm

montgomery wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
montgomery wrote:Suffice to say that anyone who can actually support the horrendous slaughter of Palestinians and the Israeli apartheid regime, has lost credibility and is suspect on anything else they try to say on this section of the forum.

Sadly, most of the holocaust promotion side only spew insults most of the time anyway.
Insults are all they have. If they had facts on their side, they would share them. They don't have the facts on their side. Emotional shrieking and insults are necessary to keep a rational discussion of the facts off the table. For if rational discussion were allowed, the whole holocaust narrative would collapse.
Thank you for your comment Mary. I very much do suspect their motives are exactly as you put it. I can't think of any other reason why they would be acting the way they do.

The issue being personal and emotional for some of them would work for maybe one or two of them if they even tried to say that's the reason for their bad behavior. But none of them do.

So please join us and please, as I've asked everyone else who is a skeptic or a denier, don't fall into the trap of behaving the way they do. We have to rise above that and as we do we demonstrate our decency in a small way at least. As opposed to eggs, balmoral, and the worst of their rabble! They've made their reputation and shown their lack of credibility.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:21 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
montgomery wrote:Suffice to say that anyone who can actually support the horrendous slaughter of Palestinians and the Israeli apartheid regime, has lost credibility and is suspect on anything else they try to say on this section of the forum.

Sadly, most of the holocaust promotion side only spew insults most of the time anyway.
Insults are all they have. If they had facts on their side, they would share them. They don't have the facts on their side. Emotional shrieking and insults are necessary to keep a rational discussion of the facts off the table. For if rational discussion were allowed, the whole holocaust narrative would collapse.
Oh, look. It’s the ghost of deniers past.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:22 pm

I wonder if this means David is going to make an appearance and talk about ice dancing or the googly eyed lady.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by montgomery » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:25 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
montgomery wrote:Suffice to say that anyone who can actually support the horrendous slaughter of Palestinians and the Israeli apartheid regime, has lost credibility and is suspect on anything else they try to say on this section of the forum.

Sadly, most of the holocaust promotion side only spew insults most of the time anyway.
Insults are all they have. If they had facts on their side, they would share them. They don't have the facts on their side. Emotional shrieking and insults are necessary to keep a rational discussion of the facts off the table. For if rational discussion were allowed, the whole holocaust narrative would collapse.
Oh, look. It’s the ghost of deniers past.
See my reply on the Mogliev gassing. I've given you a choice on how you want to continue to discuss that issue. And I would like to get going with that discussion asap.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:45 pm

montgomery wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
montgomery wrote:Suffice to say that anyone who can actually support the horrendous slaughter of Palestinians and the Israeli apartheid regime, has lost credibility and is suspect on anything else they try to say on this section of the forum.

Sadly, most of the holocaust promotion side only spew insults most of the time anyway.
Insults are all they have. If they had facts on their side, they would share them. They don't have the facts on their side. Emotional shrieking and insults are necessary to keep a rational discussion of the facts off the table. For if rational discussion were allowed, the whole holocaust narrative would collapse.
Oh, look. It’s the ghost of deniers past.
See my reply on the Mogliev gassing. I've given you a choice on how you want to continue to discuss that issue. And I would like to get going with that discussion asap.
I’m out running around today with the family so I’m only checking in on occasion. Just make your comments public.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Post by Balmoral95 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:27 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
montgomery wrote:Suffice to say that anyone who can actually support the horrendous slaughter of Palestinians and the Israeli apartheid regime, has lost credibility and is suspect on anything else they try to say on this section of the forum.

Sadly, most of the holocaust promotion side only spew insults most of the time anyway.
Insults are all they have. If they had facts on their side, they would share them. They don't have the facts on their side. Emotional shrieking and insults are necessary to keep a rational discussion of the facts off the table. For if rational discussion were allowed, the whole holocaust narrative would collapse.
Thank you for your comment Mary. I very much do suspect their motives are exactly as you put it. I can't think of any other reason why they would be acting the way they do.

The issue being personal and emotional for some of them would work for maybe one or two of them if they even tried to say that's the reason for their bad behavior. But none of them do.

So please join us and please, as I've asked everyone else who is a skeptic or a denier, don't fall into the trap of behaving the way they do. We have to rise above that and as we do we demonstrate our decency in a small way at least. As opposed to eggs, balmoral, and the worst of their rabble! They've made their reputation and shown their lack of credibility.
Damn, that's one fine piece of arsch licking.... :lol: