Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Discussions
User avatar
scrmbldggs
Real Skeptic
Posts: 25682
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: somewhere

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:48 pm

montgomery wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:24 pm
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:05 pm
After Jimmy Åkesson told Aftonbladet that he'd consider stepping down as party leader of the Sweden Democrats (if the Moderaterna asked in order to be able to form a government with the Sweden Democrats - "If you change that Åkesson then we can form government together"), Åkesson continued (per Aftonbladet):
Another unexpected message from Åkesson is he also opens to co-operate with the Social Democrats. And the Christian Democrats. He has previously said that he may also intend to support an S[ocial Democratic] government governing his political heart issues. But now he says that he may even think of being part of an S government despite the fact that his party mates in the constituency carry sweaters with the words "stopping the socialists".

- I have talked about the SD, KD and S in conversation with the speaker as a possible constellation. It is as likely politically as the one we talk about where the Moderates are present. I think we could agree quite well even with the Social Democrats.

An S, KD and SD government is a completely unrealistic alternative?

- Yes. It's very remote. But actually, there are some worse options possible than with the Moderates. But there should be there as an alternative, "said Jimmie Åkesson to Aftonbladet on Tuesday afternoon.

Meanwhile, with their election now basically unwatched by the world media, the Swedes are in the first step of government formation:

- the party leaders have met with the Moderaterna Riksdag speaker (newly elected with Sweden Democrat votes)
- the Riksdag speaker in no surprise has asked party-mate Ulf Kristersson, leader of the Moderaterna, to form a government

My guess is that Åkesson's statements today are meant as pressure on Kristersson to include the Sweden Democrats in his government.
See ya back in the fast lance when you get over your daily ignoring period.

:hmm: Lance doesn't post here, dear. :pardon:
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

montgomery
BANNED
Posts: 953
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:30 pm

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by montgomery » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:04 pm

Eggs breaks the silence for the sake of a typo!

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Real Skeptic
Posts: 25682
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: somewhere

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:54 pm

montgomery wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:04 pm
Eggs breaks the silence for the sake of a typo!
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23273
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:56 pm

Moderaterna leader Kristersson is being pressed from three sides in his attempt to form a government:

- as above, Jimmy Åkesson of the Sweden Democrats is pushing for a role in the new government (otherwise, the party now says that its Riksdag members will oppose an Alliance government led by the Moderaterna)
- the Liberals and the Center party - two of the four parties in the Alliance bloc - want a deal in which the Social Democrats support a new Alliance government especially on the budget and still oppose a Sweden Democrat backed option
- Social Democratic party leader Stefan Löfven says that the Social Democrats won't be a support party for an Alliance government (recall that the Alliance members of the Riksdag were joined by the Sweden Democrats in removing Löfven as prime minister)

The math is tough: without support from either the Social Democrats or the Sweden Democrats, the Alliance can't put together a Riksdag majority. Even a Moderaterna, Christian Democrat, and Sweden Democrat coalition would fall 21 seats short of a majority. In short, unless the Center and Liberals cave on the issue of the Sweden Democrats, the path to a new government is a Social Democrat-Moderaterna agreement of some sort - the very thing that both party leaders have boxed themselves out of, despite meeting today.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4476
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:35 am

I'm no expert in Swedish Election Law, but I'm pretty sure this Girl is now your Queen:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45753455

Balmoral95
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2470
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:14 am
Location: The Free Nambia Healthcare Nirvana

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Balmoral95 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:36 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:35 am
I'm no expert in Swedish Election Law, but I'm pretty sure this Girl is now your Queen:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45753455
She might be a fake claimant: Recently we were informed that Stat Mech was descended from Moses and therefore the rightful leader of this little, wandering, Zionist tribe... I even have it on good authority that after a recent massive flood he's been seen carrying tablets of wallboard around without revealing the inscriptions on them. Serious, serious business, this....some even say yet another oracle from Rodoh shall appear, revealing all truth and light when next the moon is blue and there appears in the Eastern Occupied Territories.... a star..

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23273
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:24 pm

Pyrrho posted this NYRB piece by Christopher Browning in the Donny Thread: "The Suffocation of Democracy": in the piece Browning answers the question he, as a historian of the Third Reich, is so often asked nowadays, to what degree "the current situation in the United States resembles the interwar period and the rise of fascism in Europe." Without giving anything away, I will note this line from the piece, "If the US has someone whom historians will look back on as the gravedigger of American democracy, it is Mitch McConnell."
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23273
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:54 pm

The Swedish press is reporting that Moderaterna leader Ulf Kristersson, facing a Tuesday deadline to form a government, will inform the Riksdag leader tomorrow that he cannot do so.

The Alliance appears to have split, perhaps permanently, with the Liberals and Center refusing to support a Moderaterna government on Kristersson's terms - that is, with Sweden Democrat (SD) support. The small Christian Democratic party is in favor of Kristerrson's proposal.

However, Kristerrson's proposal was framed as an ultimatum to the Alliance parties, and, unlike the Christian Democrats, the Center and Liberals have reacted with anger. Annie Lööf, leader of the Center party, announced disappointment with Kristersson's effort and his apparent preference to form a government with SD backing, even at the cost of inclusion of the Liberals and Center, both members of the Alliance. The Center's 31 members of the Riksdag will vote "no" on such a Moderaterna-led government. Jan Björklund, leader of the Liberals, has added that Kristerrson did not make a real effort to explore cross-bloc possibilities which would include all 4 Alliance parties, exclude the SDs, and include the Social Democrats. The Liberals will also vote "no."

Both the Liberals and Center are signaling some openness to a coalition led by the Social Democrats under certain conditions. Among the proposed options are a grand coalition, of Moderaterna and Social Democrats (the two largest parties), like the CD - SPD alliance in Germany.

What do I know? I had predicted that this would not happen, given what I heard on the ground from Liberal and Center campaigners during the election - their strong distaste for Social Democratic economic policies. If the Liberals and Center wind up supporting some form of a Social Democratic government, it will be a case of values trumping economics.

Jimmy Åkesson, SD leader, has reacted with a statement that the Alliance is toast and that a truly right-wing government is now possible, without the Liberals and Center. The problem? Together, the SD, the Moderaterna, and the Christian Democrats have only 154 seats in the Riksdag out of 175 needed for a majority - and all other parties seem sure to vote "no" on a right-wing government.

The Moderaterna have fired back at Lööf and Björklund saying that if they wish to serve as doormats to the Social Democrats, so be it.

At the same time, a cross-bloc coalition led by the Social Democrats and including the Liberals, Center, and Greens - if it should eventually come to that - will not have a majority (it can command 167 seats, 10 shy of a majority). But a government in Sweden can exist if a majority doesn't vote against it - which, should today's threats go as far as pulling the Liberals and Center into a new coalition with the Social Democrats, would put the Left in a decisive role - the Left would not be part of such a coalition, but the coalition would need the 28 Left Riksdag members to refuse to vote against their government.

In the meantime, it is expected that Stefan Löfven, party leader of the Social Democrats, will be asked to take the next shot at forming a new Swedish government.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23273
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:12 pm

Merkel's "sister" party gets clobbered in Bavaria, in another instance of a traditional leading European party in throes of agony:
The party is expected to continue to govern even after Sunday’s election. But projected results based on exit polls on Sunday evening showed the CSU’s share of the vote falling dramatically, from nearly half in 2013 to barely more than a third, with 35.5 percent. Parties on either ideological flank — the Greens on the left, with an estimated 19 percent, and the Alternative for Germany (AfD) on the far right, with 11 percent — severely dented the CSU’s traditional dominance.
One silver lining for Merkel is that Seehofer, of the CSU and Interior minister, who has trashed the Merkel government from the right and has been involved in scandal, is damaged by the result in his home state.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23273
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:03 pm

In Sweden, SD leader Åkesson agrees that it's reasonable that Stefan Löfven be given the next shot at government formation - but says that the time should be brief and that, with the party positions "locked," new elections are the probably outcome. Meanwhile, the Alliance (conservative bloc) split deepens, and no one can figure out what Annie Lööf, Center party leader, will accept - she vacillates between a Social Democratic led government that could be supported by the Center and Liberals and a grand coalition (Social Democrats + Moderaterna). The rhetoric is increasingly hostile.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23273
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:14 pm

When I visited Berlin, the far right and neo-Nazis were crowing about the tide turning as about 500 Berlin neo-Nazis marched on the anniversary of Hess' death. I read that the counter-demonstrators numbered 1000 - and that 2300 police were deployed for the march. Today, in Berlin, however, up to 1/4 of a million people demonstrated against the far right: Berlin protests against far-right politics draw thousands:
Berlin produced an absurdly hot and sunny fall day on Saturday to welcome an estimated 240,000 people demonstrating against racism and calling for solidarity against the rise of far-right populism across Germany.

A 5-kilometer (3-mile) stretch of the capital city's center, from Alexanderplatz through the Brandenburg Gate to the Victory Column, had to be closed down to accommodate the huge parade, which was united under the hashtag #unteilbar ("indivisible").

The crowds were punctuated by 40 trucks mounted with loudspeakers, some delivering political messages, others pumping out music of all genres. They also included the traditional Berlin staple: the techno truck surrounded by semi-clothed dancers. The march was bookended by two concert events, the second of which was expected to stretch into the evening.

All kinds of organizations joined in, including trade unions, NGOs, political parties (both mainstream and fringe), gay rights groups, schools and theaters, all carrying a variety of banners, each with their own cause to promote (Ryanair workers were a conspicuous presence), but all united behind the slogan: "Solidarity not marginalization." . . .

The [protest] declaration went on to attack the effects of global capitalism: "Millions suffer the impact of an underinvestment in basic care, healthcare, childcare and education."

There was a widespread feeling in the crowd that such a mass statement was a vital correction in a country that has seen ordinary people joining far-right, even neo-Nazi protests, and several conservative politicians adopting anti-immigrant rhetoric.

"There are people here who want to show that they don't support what is going on in Germany, including from established politicians, all this hate, this whole debate about immigration," said Rola Saleh, a social worker who helps young refugees in the eastern city of Chemnitz, where far-right violence made international headlines in late August. . . .

Senior government figures lent their support to the demonstration, most notably Foreign Minister Heiko Maas, who tweeted: "It is a great signal that so many people are going on the streets and showing a clear position: We are indivisible. We won't let ourselves be divided — certainly not by right-wing populists."

While Maas' Social Democratic Party (SPD), along with the Greens and the socialist Left party, all offered official support, Angela Merkel's Christian Democratic Union (CDU) was absent on Saturday.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23273
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:06 pm

"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23273
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:21 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:12 pm
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27755&start=40#p655462
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27755&start=40#p655494

OTOH I watched hours of live-feeds from Portland (Proud Boys + Patriot Prayer) last weekend, on Unicorn Riot (left), a FB account (right), and local TV news and saw that, whilst the Antifas remain {!#%@} and counter-productive, the main problem was the militarized police force of the "liberal" city, which worked with the far right groups and attacked the counter-protesters violently. Police are police are police.
The hilariously named police chief of Portland, Outlaw, should long ago IMO have been shitcanned: "Portland Cops Knew The Fascists Had A Weapons Cache. They Kept Silent And Attacked Protesters. Patriot Prayer had a stash of guns on a roof before a violent Oregon rally in August. Police didn’t tell anyone."
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23273
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:53 pm

EU orders Poland not to implement law on mandatory retirement of supreme court judges: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eu ... 72d8322c00
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23273
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:44 pm

European-style ethnic-nationalism in Iowa - Republican congressman Steven King:

"Rep. Steve King Goes Full White Nationalist In Interview With Austrian Site: A shocking interview with a far-right propaganda site offers the clearest look yet at the congressman’s racist ideology." (note really shocking if you've been following King's antics, but . . . ; Roger Griffin is quoted on King in this piece)

"Steve King: Bring Pride back to Austria" (the Austrian interview)

"A Very German Love Story: When Old Left and Far Right Share a Bedroom" (NY Times profile from earlier this year of the far-right interviewer, Caroline Sommerfeld, and her left-wing husband Helmut Lethen)

By coincidence, I made a campaign donation to King's election opponent just yesterday. Helmut Lethen, discussed in the third link, wrote Cool Conduct on Weimar culture and the Neue Sachlichkeit; it's IMO a very interesting work.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23273
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:54 am

Sweden update: We are halfway through the allotted time for Stefan Löfven (Social Democrat) to form a government.

Lövfen's expressed aim has been to form a cross-bloc government, which means attracting one or more parties from the conservative Alliance, presumably the Center party, headed by Annie Lööf. Löfven has, in contrast to Ulf Kristersson (right-wing Moderaterna) during his attempt to form a government, kept talks very quiet; Kristersson thought, for reasons that are unclear, that the government-formation discussions should be a media circus. Today Löfven updated the Riksdag speaker on his progress, which, he says, has been complicated and difficult; the parties have no budged.

Already, halfway through the time given Löfven, Jimmy Åkesson, head of the Sweden Democrats, is declaring Löfven's effort a failure: "It is clear that Stefan Löfven has not succeeded. But instead of realizing it, he is now allowing another week to go." Which - another week - conforms to the assignment given Löfven by the Riksdag speaker. Åkesson keeps trying to pressurize the situation and may even be campaigning in the event of a second election, should the impasse continue.

As to Löfven's hopes of pulling Lööf into a governing coalition, a point of unity between the two is that Lööf has so far stood firm against a government with tacit Sweden Democrat support, which Kristersson tried engineering. OTOH the difficulties are two-fold and perhaps insurmountable:

- Lööf wants a more open migration/immigration policy than the Social Democrats support
- Lööf is adamant, Macron-style, that labor protections (the heart of Swedish Social Democracy) be loosened (by contrast to the Social Democrats on economic issues, the Center party is a free-market, conservative party)

With the Social Democrats having lost voters in this fall's election, many defecting to the far-right Sweden Democrats on both these issues (borders and neo-liberal economic policies), Lööf's demands are especially tough ones for Löfven.

Also Lööf has publicly advocated a Modernaterna + Social Democratic government. OTOH her play may be to keep the situation "locked" and hope that the next assignment to lead the formation of a new government comes to her. Which will be challenging if it comes to that, the Center party having received only 8 percent of the vote, virtually the same total as the Left.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23273
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:47 am

A GOP closing "argument" in the '18 midterms in the US - Soros wire-puller: https://youtu.be/GyMkH7WfTS0

https://twitter.com/RepMattGaetz/status ... 7826736129 on 17 October:
BREAKING: Footage in Honduras giving cash 2 women & children 2 join the caravan & storm the US border @ election time. Soros? US-backed NGOs? Time to investigate the source!
Overnight: "At George Soros’s Home in N.Y. Suburb, Explosive Device Found in Mailbox"
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23273
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:14 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:47 am
A GOP closing "argument" in the '18 midterms in the US - Soros wire-puller: https://youtu.be/GyMkH7WfTS0

https://twitter.com/RepMattGaetz/status ... 7826736129 on 17 October:
BREAKING: Footage in Honduras giving cash 2 women & children 2 join the caravan & storm the US border @ election time. Soros? US-backed NGOs? Time to investigate the source!
Overnight: "At George Soros’s Home in N.Y. Suburb, Explosive Device Found in Mailbox"
With today's news, at least for the US, I should probably revise my forum signature, changing the Clash's words to "It is now at the stage of bombs and powder, hurrah tala."

Dayum, at least whoever is sending these pipe bombs and suspicious powder has gotten the mailing list from the president and the alt-right. Which brings me to the point that the White House is this morning condemning whoever sent these bombs to those whom the White House has previously urged that the yahoos attack.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23273
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:17 am

Connections . . . as the Trump presidency and the toxic forces it has gathered focus their midterm pitch on George Soros and the caravan, Adam Serwer writes in The Atlantic:
The apparent spark for the worst anti-Semitic massacre in American history was a racist hoax inflamed by a U.S. president seeking to help his party win a midterm election. There is no political gesture, no public statement, and no alteration in rhetoric or behavior that will change this fact. The shooter might have found a different reason to act on a different day. But he chose to act on Saturday, and he apparently chose to act in response to a political fiction that the president himself chose to spread and that his followers chose to amplify.

As for those who aided the president in his propaganda campaign, who enabled him to prey on racist fears to fabricate a national emergency, who said to themselves, “This is the play”? Every single one of them bears some responsibility for what followed. Their condemnations of anti-Semitism are meaningless. Their thoughts and prayers are worthless. Their condolences are irrelevant. They can never undo what they have done, and what they have done will never be forgotten.
It is important to recall that it was Viktor Orbán in Hungary whose recent nationalist election campaign similarly demonized Soros (and Jews) and lied its way to a blowout win.

edit: change from NY Mag to The Atlantic (whoopsie)
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Real Skeptic
Posts: 25682
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: somewhere

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:39 am

There is no political gesture, no public statement, and no alteration in rhetoric or behavior that will change this fact.
And apparently, there isn't even an attempt at such change besides the usual few words - written by others - read listlessly from a teleprompter by the guy with "the best words".


(And looks like even though he's been asked by the community to wait until next week or so because of grieving and procedures, Rump plans on planting the same into their midst immediately. There's publicity to be had, I guess...)
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23273
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:51 pm

Timothy Snyder: "Donald Trump borrows from the old tricks of fascism: The idea that the powerful are victims who must be coddled arose in a setting that recalls the United States of today":
Trump and some of his supporters mount a strategy of deterrence by narcissism: if you note our debts to fascism, we will up the pitch of the whining. Thus Trump can base his rhetoric on the fascist idea of us and them, lead fascist chants at rallies, encourage his supporters to use violence, praise a politician who attacked a journalist, muse that Hillary Clinton should be assassinated, denigrate the intelligence of African Americans, associate migrants with criminality, run an antisemitic advertisement, spread the Nazi trope of Jews as “globalists”, and endorse the antisemitic idea that the Jewish financier George Soros is responsible for political opposition – but he and his followers will puff chests and swell sinuses if anyone points this out.

If Trump is not a fascist, this is only in the precise sense that he is not even a fascist. He strikes a fascist pose, and then issues generic palliative remarks and denies responsibility for his words and actions. But since total irresponsibility is a central part of the fascist tradition, it is perhaps best to give Trump his due credit as an innovator.
Caustic - IMO a bit off.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1914
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Balsamo » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:37 am

Big surprise today.
Don't know if anyone has followed the destiny of Marine Le Pen in the aftermath of the presidential elections.
Well, let's just say that the sky fell on her, ridiculed after her performance during the presidential debate, confronted with a dissidence after her defeat, the loss of one the few thinking heads of the Party (Philippot), the loss of her niece, the organized bankruptcy of her political party, her indictment for corruption during her European mandate, a judge humiliating her by asking a psychiatric examination for another case...
and an almost blackout from the media.

Well the polls just came out for the next elections (the European ones): Marine Le Pen and her new Party, recalled Rassemblement National (FN no longer exists) came out first with 21%, followed by the presidential party at 19%, the classic right (LR) at 14%, Melanchon party is losing big and only stands at 11%, and finally, the former ruling Party, the socialist party (PS) stand at 6%, The ecologist around 5% the remaning 23% are shared by a myriad of parties, among them smaller extremist movements.

This really come as a complete surprise to everyone in France i talked to.
And it becomes even more scarier as i cannot see how a democracy can function with these kinds of political landscapes. The system is just not adapted.

Balmoral95
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2470
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:14 am
Location: The Free Nambia Healthcare Nirvana

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:53 am

Balsamo wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:37 am
Big surprise today.
Don't know if anyone has followed the destiny of Marine Le Pen in the aftermath of the presidential elections.
Well, let's just say that the sky fell on her, ridiculed after her performance during the presidential debate, confronted with a dissidence after her defeat, the loss of one the few thinking heads of the Party (Philippot), the loss of her niece, the organized bankruptcy of her political party, her indictment for corruption during her European mandate, a judge humiliating her by asking a psychiatric examination for another case...
and an almost blackout from the media.

Well the polls just came out for the next elections (the European ones): Marine Le Pen and her new Party, recalled Rassemblement National (FN no longer exists) came out first with 21%, followed by the presidential party at 19%, the classic right (LR) at 14%, Melanchon party is losing big and only stands at 11%, and finally, the former ruling Party, the socialist party (PS) stand at 6%, The ecologist around 5% the remaning 23% are shared by a myriad of parties, among them smaller extremist movements.

This really come as a complete surprise to everyone in France i talked to.
And it becomes even more scarier as i cannot see how a democracy can function with these kinds of political landscapes. The system is just not adapted.
Merci, I thought for sure she'd bitten the dust...

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23273
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:04 am

Macron, to add my deux francs, is really a flop.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23273
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:13 am

interesting Brexit update especially for those of us who are Americans
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

Balmoral95
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2470
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:14 am
Location: The Free Nambia Healthcare Nirvana

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:25 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:13 am
interesting Brexit update especially for those of us who are Americans

Reminds me of J. Carter: Non-starter.

User avatar
Jeff_36
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4874
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:59 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:04 am
Macron, to add my deux francs, is really a flop.
Am currently about a two thirds of the way through Sophie Pedder's book about him. He's a remarkable character who has, IMO just the right ideas about what needs to be done with France. The problem is twofold:

1. "The Street" - if you will - is far more powerful in France than in most western countries. Special interest groups such as organized labor are used to getting their way despite the intentions of whomever may be in power at a given moment. They constitute a kind of permanent shadow government in that sense. look no further than the mass civil unrest of 2006 for proof of this trend. The difference with Macron is that he understands that he is the President of the Republic, with all the naturally concomitant respect and prestige that the office brings. He actually respects the office that he occupies and he won't grovel at the feet of dim-witted student protesters who hate their country and know nothing of its history. Their opinion means less than nothing to him and he is unafraid to let it be known. I admire this trait in him, but it does not help his popularity with the gutter dwelling classes who would vote for Le Pen, or the Fannon-obsessed '68 nostalgists who sympathize with Melenchon.

2. On the other hand, Macron is far too self-assured. I would have used the term arrogant a few years ago, but Trump has taken that buzzword and ran with it to such an extent that everyone seems humble by comparison. The downside of his willingness to sacrifice his own popularity in the name of his agenda is that he comes across as monofocused and out of touch with the great mass of the French people. He actually does know better than some schlep in the drivethrough, no doubt about that, but the problem is that he makes no effort to hide it. He won't pretend to be a man of the people, and in this popularity obsessed era of retail politics, that may be his downfall. Suffice to say, this doesn't endear him to the average voter. He really is Jupiterian in that sense.

Macron reminds me a little bit of the late Pierre Trudeau, Prime Minister of Canada from 1968-1984, and the father of the slack-jawed hermaphrodite who holds the job at the moment. Granted, the policies of Macron and Trudeau could not have been more different - Trudeau pere was a fervent socialist who had embraced the doctrines of Harold Laski while a student at the London School of Economics in the late 1940's. He ran Canada as if it were a frosty colony of Cuba and wrecked the economy in the process. Macron holds the opposite intentions for France. Despite their huge ideological difference, the two men are similar in their political temperament. Both are of an intellectual stripe, and both enjoyed huge popularity upon their initial elections to power that subsequently faded. They both display/displayed enormous self-absurdness of their respective visions that lapses into arrogance, and both demonstrated a tendency towards a strongly executive style of governance which, combined with their disregard for the opinions of others, led to the appearance of distance from the average voter. Trudeau pere would regularly belittle and ridicule opposition politicians in the House of Commons, referring to them as "nobodies", flipping them the bird, insulting their dignity and on one occasion telling an opposition MP to "{!#%@} off" - in question period (Canadian version of PMQ), and on the record. Macron, from everything I have read so far, would have absolutely done the same thing.

This style of governance can be a curse or a blessing for whoever uses it. Trudeau, disastrous as he was, held power for 16 years. Macron's popularity will wax and wane, but as soon as people realize that they are essentially powerless to impead his reforms, they will stop caring. Like it or not, he'll leave office when he decides he 's done and no later. He's not the kind of guy that operates on anyone else's schedule.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23273
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:05 am

>> Macron's popularity will wax and wane

When will it wax?
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Jeff_36
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4874
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:21 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:05 am
>> Macron's popularity will wax and wane

When will it wax?
If/when he is confronted by a crisis and handles it with statesmanship and determination. Margaret Thatcher was on her way to losing the 1983 Election when her response to the Argentinian invasion of The Falklands caused her approval ratings to shoot up dramatically. Macron, at this rate, will have his Falklands moment before long.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23273
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:39 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:21 am
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:05 am
>> Macron's popularity will wax and wane

When will it wax?
If/when he is confronted by a crisis and handles it with statesmanship and determination.
Needs to keep his muscle from beating protesters at Contrescarpe, maybe.

Your predictions on France, such as the disappearance of Le Pen-ism, etc, have me waiting for Balsamo's comments on this.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Jeff_36
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4874
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:45 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:39 am
Jeff_36 wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:21 am
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:05 am
>> Macron's popularity will wax and wane

When will it wax?
If/when he is confronted by a crisis and handles it with statesmanship and determination.
Needs to keep his muscle from beating protesters at Contrescarpe, maybe.

Your predictions on France, such as the disappearance of Le Pen-ism, etc, have me waiting for Balsamo's comments on this.
I made those predictions following the resignation of Marion Le Pen - widely viewed as the future of FN - and the fracture of the party. I was not alone in thinking this. We will see if her poll numbers hold consistently.

I'm no clairvoyant - I wish had been right about this topic - but I tend to guess based on what I read from respectable publications. I figured Melenchon would be a far more consistent opposition presence following the splintering of the FN.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23273
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:06 am

I see populist nationalism continuing to grow across Europe, not an era of Macronism.

Hasn't the corruption brouhaha, and his way of dealing with it, been very damaging to Mélenchon? But 11% seems to signal a fundamental reversal for La France Insoumise ...
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Jeff_36
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4874
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:22 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:06 am
I see populist nationalism continuing to grow across Europe, not an era of Macronism.

Hasn't the corruption brouhaha, and his way of dealing with it, been very damaging to Mélenchon? But 11% seems to signal a fundamental reversal for La France Insoumise ...
I never said - as far as I could remember - that Macronisim would conquer Europe. I did however think that it represented the only viable alternative to populist nationalism. I confess to having believed that populist nationalism would be politically dead in France due to vote splitting between the RN and other FN offshoots.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23273
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:29 am

Yet Macron seems to be having tremendous difficulty in France; article after article that I read says this in different ways, from different angles, all of them stressing his profound isolation and unpopularity and most of them describing the blowback his policy efforts meet. So far he's going backwards.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Jeff_36
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4874
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:11 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:29 am
Yet Macron seems to be having tremendous difficulty in France; article after article that I read says this in different ways, from different angles, all of them stressing his profound isolation and unpopularity and most of them describing the blowback his policy efforts meet. So far he's going backwards.
I will summarize my earlier, long post on his personality flaws that have led to this particular impasse: He basically wants to ram his reforms through irrespective of what the public thinks. He sees himself as administering cough medicine to a spoiled, sick toddler. The public doesn't agree and doubtless don't appreciate being viewed that way. He'll get what he wants but the short term political consequences will be dire.

I still don't see him losing the Presidency in the next election unless MLP takes a very dominant lead and holds onto it. She's seen as a Judas by some of the more radical members of what used to be the FN - she'll have to put up with them nipping at her heels. I don't think MMLP will stay retired for long either and the only loser in that case is her aunt.

This is all speculation.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23273
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:12 pm

>> the public doesn't agree

Public disagreement with Jupiter extends to more than his attitude toward the public.

Often, in republics, where the citizenry has the franchise, the iron determination of leaders to push through an agenda with which voters are not on board with causes interesting consequences, e.g., the case of Angela Merkel. I would think interesting times might prevail when those leaders flaunt their own brilliance and correctness about that which the voters are not on board and when they persist with paternalistic certitude about what is best for those who "don't agree."
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23273
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:07 pm

"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Jeff_36
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4874
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:42 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:12 pm
Often, in republics, where the citizenry has the franchise, the iron determination of leaders to push through an agenda with which voters are not on board with causes interesting consequences, e.g., the case of Angela Merkel. I would think interesting times might prevail when those leaders flaunt their own brilliance and correctness about that which the voters are not on board and when they persist with paternalistic certitude about what is best for those who "don't agree."
Everything you said is correct. That is the entire root of the problem. The question is whether or not he'll be able to overcome the masses so to speak. As we have seen with Brexit, the popular will is not always in keeping with the common good.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23273
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:12 am

"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1914
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: Populism and Nationalism in Europe Today

Post by Balsamo » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:45 am

lol.
1.28 min: Macron says that "we are celebrating the centenary of victory and peace"
Yesterday, the Ministry of Defense, actually the airforce, was calling to celebrate peace and 100 years of fiendship between France and Germany.

Well that is the intellectual state of Europe at the political level, i guess.