The USS Indianapolis Found

Discussions
User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9591
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:11 pm

Divers found the USS Indianapolis, torpedoed after delivering parts of the atomic bomb, on Saturday:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.bbc.com/ ... a-40991326

A survivor talks about his ordeal:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washin ... illed-sea/

Wanted to share, it's an important relic of history, regardless of how you feel about the US using atomic bombs on Japan.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23276
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:51 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:. . . how you feel about the US using atomic bombs on Japan.
Like {!#%@}, frankly.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9591
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:57 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:. . . how you feel about the US using atomic bombs on Japan.
Like {!#%@}, frankly.
I know. The more I've looked at it the more it makes me squirm. Even if the first bombing was justified the second was not, the Japanese were fishing for a settlement through back channels and Truman knew this.

The things I read indicate the second bomb was to intimidate Stalin.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

User avatar
Jeff_36
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4874
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Jeff_36 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:02 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:. . . how you feel about the US using atomic bombs on Japan.
Like {!#%@}, frankly.
MacArthur estimated that the Americans would have lost a million men taking Japan. Believe me, this was preferable.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23276
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:09 pm

I don't, but I am not going into it again now.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9591
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:13 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:. . . how you feel about the US using atomic bombs on Japan.
Like {!#%@}, frankly.
MacArthur estimated that the Americans would have lost a million men taking Japan. Believe me, this was preferable.

A case can be made for Hiroshima but not Nagasaki. That's always appeared gratuitous to me and more about flexing the bomb to make Stalin back off.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23276
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:20 pm

In both cases, if you approve, you're saying that it is ok for any military to nuke any civilian population for reasons of military expediency.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9591
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:38 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:In both cases, if you approve, you're saying that it is ok for any military to nuke any civilian population for reasons of military expediency.
Not to start the debate about this again, but.....

"Nuking" civilians means something different now than it did back in 1945. That concept didn't even exist. Now we realize that such an action is morally indefensible (to put it lightly) but in 1945 the USAAF was hammering Japan daily with conventional bombers. In a way this was simply a more efficient use of resources, a single bomb/bomber could inflict more damage than a fleet of bombers could.

I don't know how much or even if those that made this decision considered the lingering effects of radiation on the population or the environment. They had a war-winning weapon and they used it. There was probably a healthy dose of racism combined with animosity towards the Japanese in general that made it easier to make that decision.

I can see why they did it, it saved American lives (which was their primary concern, not the lives of the enemy). I can't condone it but I understand it.

That's my take. I know you disagree. I also don't want to sound cold-blooded about it because I understand where you are coming on this. It's very disturbing to me that since that time only the US ever utilized these weapons in war.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

User avatar
Jeff_36
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4874
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Jeff_36 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:02 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:In both cases, if you approve, you're saying that it is ok for any military to nuke any civilian population for reasons of military expediency.
Think of how many Japanese civilians would have been killed had the invasion proceeded. Resistance would have been fanatical and everyone from 7 to 90 would have fought. Like it or not, the bombings saved Japanese lives and they are very welcome.

User avatar
TJrandom
True Skeptic
Posts: 10762
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by TJrandom » Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:44 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:In both cases, if you approve, you're saying that it is ok for any military to nuke any civilian population for reasons of military expediency.
Think of how many Japanese civilians would have been killed had the invasion proceeded. Resistance would have been fanatical and everyone from 7 to 90 would have fought. Like it or not, the bombings saved Japanese lives and they are very welcome.
I agree with this - there still being machinegun placement caves found throughout the countryside - across most if not all valleys close to the coasts and even in the now expanded Tokyo. Some are now used for fruit/vegetable storage, but were originally dug for resistance.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9591
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:59 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:In both cases, if you approve, you're saying that it is ok for any military to nuke any civilian population for reasons of military expediency.
Think of how many Japanese civilians would have been killed had the invasion proceeded. Resistance would have been fanatical and everyone from 7 to 90 would have fought. Like it or not, the bombings saved Japanese lives and they are very welcome.
I agree with this - there still being machinegun placement caves found throughout the countryside - across most if not all valleys close to the coasts and even in the now expanded Tokyo. Some are now used for fruit/vegetable storage, but were originally dug for resistance.

Thanks for your input, we are very much outsiders looking in.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23276
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:06 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:In both cases, if you approve, you're saying that it is ok for any military to nuke any civilian population for reasons of military expediency.
Not to start the debate about this again, but.....

"Nuking" civilians means something different now than it did back in 1945. That concept didn't even exist. Now we realize that such an action is morally indefensible (to put it lightly) but in 1945 the USAAF was hammering Japan daily with conventional bombers. In a way this was simply a more efficient use of resources, a single bomb/bomber could inflict more damage than a fleet of bombers could.
I have to disagree: my father was on one of the warships blasting away at Japan - and he came back from the war convinced that his battleship had engaged in war crimes. This colored the rest of his life: he described himself to me, when I was growing up, in the 1950s and 1960s, as a war criminal, for having been on that ship, which targeted civilian populations. More to the point than my father's idiosyncrasies, the Hague (1907) and Geneva (1929) conventions had a number of provisions that aimed at protecting - limiting harm to - non-combatants during war. Balsamo and I posted about this and the debates over Douhet's doctrine in the Strategic Bombing thread. Maybe I'm misunderstanding but these concepts were not new during WWII.

The rationale that these attacks were expeditious or the lesser evil is different to saying that there wasn't in 1945 a concept that this was horrific and something to be limited.
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I can see why they did it, it saved American lives (which was their primary concern, not the lives of the enemy). I can't condone it but I understand it.
My only point is this, if, in hindsight, you justify this, you are justifying other states taking similar actions. You can't have one rule for the US only.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9591
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:10 pm

Yeah, this took a bit of a left turn than me sharing an interesting story about the Indianapolis.....
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23276
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:11 pm

Left turns are preferable IMO to right ones :)
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1915
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Balsamo » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:22 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:In both cases, if you approve, you're saying that it is ok for any military to nuke any civilian population for reasons of military expediency.
Not to start the debate about this again, but.....

"Nuking" civilians means something different now than it did back in 1945. That concept didn't even exist. Now we realize that such an action is morally indefensible (to put it lightly) but in 1945 the USAAF was hammering Japan daily with conventional bombers. In a way this was simply a more efficient use of resources, a single bomb/bomber could inflict more damage than a fleet of bombers could.
I have to disagree: my father was on one of the warships blasting away at Japan - and he came back from the war convinced that his battleship had engaged in war crimes. This colored the rest of his life: he described himself to me, when I was growing up, in the 1950s and 1960s, as a war criminal, for having been on that ship, which targeted civilian populations. More to the point than my father's idiosyncrasies, the Hague (1907) and Geneva (1929) conventions had a number of provisions that aimed at protecting - limiting harm to - non-combatants during war. Balsamo and I posted about this and the debates over Douhet's doctrine in the Strategic Bombing thread. Maybe I'm misunderstanding but these concepts were not new during WWII.

The rationale that these attacks were expeditious or the lesser evil is different to saying that there wasn't in 1945 a concept that this was horrific and something to be limited.
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I can see why they did it, it saved American lives (which was their primary concern, not the lives of the enemy). I can't condone it but I understand it.
My only point is this, if, in hindsight, you justify this, you are justifying other states taking similar actions. You can't have one rule for the US only.
Agree with you on all points.
I salute your father integrity and honesty. But he might have been too severe judging himself.

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 29615
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:48 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Divers found the USS Indianapolis, torpedoed after delivering parts of the atomic bomb, on Saturday:

Wanted to share, it's an important relic of history, regardless of how you feel about the US using atomic bombs on Japan.
Off Topic
I remembered hearing about the USS Indianapolis before. In the first movie "Jaws" (1975), the captain of the shark hunting boat talked about being in a US navy boat sunk by torpedoes and the survivors being eaten by sharks. I checked and it was indeed the USS Indianapolis.
:D

[bbvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9S41Kplsbs[/bbvideo]

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9591
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:42 pm

Yep, I remember that. Great movie and that is a great scene.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

Balmoral95
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2470
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:14 am
Location: The Free Nambia Healthcare Nirvana

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Balmoral95 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:24 am


User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23276
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:17 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:. . . how you feel about the US using atomic bombs on Japan.
Like {!#%@}, frankly.
MacArthur estimated that the Americans would have lost a million men taking Japan. Believe me, this was preferable.
IIRC by numerous post-war reports MacArthur was against the use of the atomic bomb against Japan - not that he was consulted. He was probably pissed he wasn't in on it. But still.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
TJrandom
True Skeptic
Posts: 10762
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by TJrandom » Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:39 am

Balmoral95 wrote:For consideration/discussion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_na ... rld_War_II
The Hiroshima memorial only mentions the `impress Russia` theory of why the atomic bombs were dropped - a serious flaw IMO. (Or it did some 15 years ago, or so - when I visited there. But I have since heard this repeated on history talk shows.) Understandably, it isn`t considered popular to praise these bombings as having led to fewer deaths overall.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23276
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:00 am

TJrandom wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:For consideration/discussion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_na ... rld_War_II
The Hiroshima memorial only mentions the `impress Russia` theory of why the atomic bombs were dropped - a serious flaw IMO. (Or it did so some 15 years ago, or so - when I visited there. But I have since heard this repeated on history talk shows.) Understandably, it isn`t considered popular to praise these bombings as having led to fewer deaths overall.
I somewhat disagree on the efficacy argument not being popular - I see it on every anniversary: there are arguments on both sides and those who argue in favor of the efficacy of the bombing seem to me to have a strong voice. Of course, there are scholars who argue a different view to theirs. IIRC the summary page on the debate at Wikipedia isn't half bad.

The "impress USSR" theory was IIRC the thesis of Gar Alperovitz in Atomic Diplomacy, written in the '60s and has really fallen into disfavor, so I too find surprising what you say about the plaque.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
TJrandom
True Skeptic
Posts: 10762
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by TJrandom » Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:18 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:For consideration/discussion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_na ... rld_War_II
The Hiroshima memorial only mentions the `impress Russia` theory of why the atomic bombs were dropped - a serious flaw IMO. (Or it did so some 15 years ago, or so - when I visited there. But I have since heard this repeated on history talk shows.) Understandably, it isn`t considered popular to praise these bombings as having led to fewer deaths overall.
I somewhat disagree on the efficacy argument not being popular - I see it on every anniversary: there are arguments on both sides and those who argue in favor of the efficacy of the bombing seem to me to have a strong voice. Of course, there are scholars who argue a different view to theirs. IIRC the summary page on the debate at Wikipedia isn't half bad.

The "impress USSR" theory was IIRC the thesis of Gar Alperovitz in Atomic Diplomacy, written in the '60s and has really fallen into disfavor, so I too find surprising what you say about the plaque.
For clarity - the memorial is now a visitor centre with maps, scale models, and video/audio offered in several languages. It was the written as well as the audio explanation for the bombing that I was referring to as single motivatated in their display.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23276
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:36 am

TJrandom wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:For consideration/discussion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_na ... rld_War_II
The Hiroshima memorial only mentions the `impress Russia` theory of why the atomic bombs were dropped - a serious flaw IMO. (Or it did so some 15 years ago, or so - when I visited there. But I have since heard this repeated on history talk shows.) Understandably, it isn`t considered popular to praise these bombings as having led to fewer deaths overall.
I somewhat disagree on the efficacy argument not being popular - I see it on every anniversary: there are arguments on both sides and those who argue in favor of the efficacy of the bombing seem to me to have a strong voice. Of course, there are scholars who argue a different view to theirs. IIRC the summary page on the debate at Wikipedia isn't half bad.

The "impress USSR" theory was IIRC the thesis of Gar Alperovitz in Atomic Diplomacy, written in the '60s and has really fallen into disfavor, so I too find surprising what you say about the plaque.
For clarity - the memorial is now a visitor centre with maps, scale models, and video/audio offered in several languages. It was the written as well as the audio explanation for the bombing that I was referring to as single motivatated in their display.
LOL I've got the Auschwitz plaque on the brain!! Your clarification makes it even more interesting, and even 15 years ago, Alperovitz and his thesis had been pretty much rejected.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

Im_Not_Creative_Enough
Poster
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:32 pm

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Im_Not_Creative_Enough » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:19 am

Finding the (((Indianapolis))) is (((great))) and all BUT WHAT ABOUT THE USS LIBERTY WHICH GOT SUNKED BY THE (((EVIL))) (((JOOZ)))????!!!!
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9591
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:50 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:. . . how you feel about the US using atomic bombs on Japan.
Like {!#%@}, frankly.
MacArthur estimated that the Americans would have lost a million men taking Japan. Believe me, this was preferable.
IIRC by numerous post-war reports MacArthur was against the use of the atomic bomb against Japan - not that he was consulted. He was probably pissed he wasn't in on it. But still.
MacArthur favored the use of the atomic bomb against the Chinese after they gave him a thumping in North Korea. Trying to salvage his wounded pride...
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23276
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:51 pm

Yep, he went all atomic after the big war . . .
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9591
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:04 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Yep, he went all atomic after the big war . . .

MacArthur was Trump long before there was a Trump. The more I've read about him the more I dislike him. He was vain, racist, intolerant and believed he was always right. He took an unnecessary risk at Incheon, luckily for him it paid off. He refused to listen to intelligence reports indicating that powerful Chinese forces were in North Korea and cared more about reaching the Yalu River than he did about caring for his men.

To top it off he was discourteous to Truman.

Not a fan.... :lol:
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23276
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:54 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:To top it off he was discourteous to Truman.
Well, he had a good side :)
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9591
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:59 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:To top it off he was discourteous to Truman.
Well, he had a good side :)
Hey! I like Truman!!!

LOL
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23276
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:04 pm

I despise him. I would have been an FDR Democrat during that period. But we digress . . .
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9591
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:16 pm

Each to his own. If nothing else MacArthur's disrespect to his Commander-in-Chief deserved a pink slip.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 23276
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:21 pm

We agree on MacArthur -- but don't let Ian know :)
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9591
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:46 pm

LOL
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9591
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:47 pm

Oh, sorry, (((LOL)))
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

User avatar
Jeff_36
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4874
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:40 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:. . . how you feel about the US using atomic bombs on Japan.
Like {!#%@}, frankly.
MacArthur estimated that the Americans would have lost a million men taking Japan. Believe me, this was preferable.
IIRC by numerous post-war reports MacArthur was against the use of the atomic bomb against Japan - not that he was consulted. He was probably pissed he wasn't in on it. But still.
He was not consulted regarding use of the atomic bomb, but he was consulted on expected casualties. Apparently his answer to Truman's question on the matter (1 million dead) was the deciding factor for Truman's ordering of the bombings.

User avatar
Jeff_36
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4874
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:50 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Yep, he went all atomic after the big war . . .

MacArthur was Trump long before there was a Trump. The more I've read about him the more I dislike him. He was vain, racist, intolerant and believed he was always right. He took an unnecessary risk at Incheon, luckily for him it paid off. He refused to listen to intelligence reports indicating that powerful Chinese forces were in North Korea and cared more about reaching the Yalu River than he did about caring for his men.

To top it off he was discourteous to Truman.

Not a fan.... :lol:
I think he had his uses - when he was on his game he was as good as Patton or better, but when he let his hubris do the thinking for him (which was often) the consequences were disastrous. He jumped the shark in Korea, X's father's opinion says as much anyway.

User avatar
Jeff_36
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4874
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:52 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:To top it off he was discourteous to Truman.
Well, he had a good side :)
Hey! I like Truman!!!

LOL
One of my favorite Presidents. He presided over the end of WWII, the Marshall Plan, the Berlin Airlift, and much more. I rank him at #3 overall.

User avatar
Jeffk 1970
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9591
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:00 am

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:59 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Yep, he went all atomic after the big war . . .

MacArthur was Trump long before there was a Trump. The more I've read about him the more I dislike him. He was vain, racist, intolerant and believed he was always right. He took an unnecessary risk at Incheon, luckily for him it paid off. He refused to listen to intelligence reports indicating that powerful Chinese forces were in North Korea and cared more about reaching the Yalu River than he did about caring for his men.

To top it off he was discourteous to Truman.

Not a fan.... :lol:
I think he had his uses - when he was on his game he was as good as Patton or better, but when he let his hubris do the thinking for him (which was often) the consequences were disastrous. He jumped the shark in Korea, X's father's opinion says as much anyway.
He had some talents but his ego grew exponentially over time. Even writers critical of him said the way he conducted the Pacific Campaign with limited resources was masterful. But, even then he sat on his hands after Pearl Harbor and doomed his command in the Philippines.

If you haven't read "The Coldest Winter" by David Halberstram I highly recommend it.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

Balmoral95
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2470
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:14 am
Location: The Free Nambia Healthcare Nirvana

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:05 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Yep, he went all atomic after the big war . . .

MacArthur was Trump long before there was a Trump. The more I've read about him the more I dislike him. He was vain, racist, intolerant and believed he was always right. He took an unnecessary risk at Incheon, luckily for him it paid off. He refused to listen to intelligence reports indicating that powerful Chinese forces were in North Korea and cared more about reaching the Yalu River than he did about caring for his men.

To top it off he was discourteous to Truman.

Not a fan.... :lol:
I think he had his uses - when he was on his game he was as good as Patton or better, but when he let his hubris do the thinking for him (which was often) the consequences were disastrous. He jumped the shark in Korea, X's father's opinion says as much anyway.
Unnecessary operational risks are what win battles.... Inchon was thought to be unassailable by NK... so too were the Ardennes considered by the French in 1940.

User avatar
Jeff_36
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4874
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: The USS Indianapolis Found

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:22 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Yep, he went all atomic after the big war . . .

MacArthur was Trump long before there was a Trump. The more I've read about him the more I dislike him. He was vain, racist, intolerant and believed he was always right. He took an unnecessary risk at Incheon, luckily for him it paid off. He refused to listen to intelligence reports indicating that powerful Chinese forces were in North Korea and cared more about reaching the Yalu River than he did about caring for his men.

To top it off he was discourteous to Truman.

Not a fan.... :lol:
I think he had his uses - when he was on his game he was as good as Patton or better, but when he let his hubris do the thinking for him (which was often) the consequences were disastrous. He jumped the shark in Korea, X's father's opinion says as much anyway.
He had some talents but his ego grew exponentially over time. Even writers critical of him said the way he conducted the Pacific Campaign with limited resources was masterful. But, even then he sat on his hands after Pearl Harbor and doomed his command in the Philippines.

If you haven't read "The Coldest Winter" by David Halberstram I highly recommend it.
I will add it to my list (which is massive, I finally finished Beevors book on the Spanish Civil War, I was dissapointed, as it usually the case with Beevor).

I always wonder what type of General the average squaddie would prefer - a brilliant genius that happens to be erratic and unpredictable like MacArthur, or an unspectacular but reliable incrementalist like Monty of Omar Bradley.......