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Re: Documentaries

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:09 pm

In your head, big talker. You posted nonsense, challenged people here to respond, and told us how you think it works. Of course, we responded without difficulty. You came up short. And skedaddled instead of having the decency to thank, say, Goody for providing background and sources and setting things straight. It has never been clear to me why people like you bother. Bye-bye.
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"Dirty Wars" (2013) by Jeremy Scahill

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:04 pm

I watched the 86 minutes of this documentary this afternoon. It focuses on two or three issues, and it's a personal look at Scahill's gradual understanding of JSOC. We all know what that is since the 2011 killing of Osama Bin Laden, but it was top-secret for decades. Jimmy Carter established it after the disastrous attempt to rescue the hostages in Iran. And, as Scahill found out, FOIA requests concerning it are automatically rejected out of hand. No one knows exactly what its budget is; it reports only to the President, and Congress doesn't even attempt to oversee it. Of course, since the killing of Bin Laden made heroes out of JSOC, Congress was happy to cheer it on and lavish funds on it. The video has a clip of Senator McCain sucking up to its leader McRaven, and the latter assuring him that they are ready to expand operations into Somalia, Indonesia,... and anywhere that Al-Qaeda or ISIS or anybody we don't like is set up. (Some 75 countries at last count.)

The most chilling aspect was brought out by the murder of Anwar al-Awlaki (AND HIS 16-YEAR-OLD SON!!). This was entirely Obama's doing; he simply declared an American citizen outlaw without any consultation with Congress and order his murder. The claim is that the son was "collateral damage" in a later strike. Sure. In the same sense in which the death of Astyanax was collateral to the death of Hector, I suppose. The motive was probably the same: The Greeks were terrified that Astyanax would grow up and avenge the sack of Troy, so they murdered him. America was so frightened by Anwar al-Awlaki that it murdered him, then murdered his son, lest he grow up and avenge his father. And, we need to remember, ALL that al-Awlaki ever did was fulminate against the United States and ADVOCATE violence against it. No one is claiming that he ever personally engaged in such violence.

Scahill starts out at Gardez in Afghanistan, where Americans invaded the home of a peaceful anti-Taliban family, killed a local police officer, two pregnant women and a child. They demonized Scahill and the British journalist who broke the story, but eventually had to admit that it was true. But you'd never know that from the general that Scahill interviewed. He created a lurid scenario in which those pregnant women were gun-toting terrorists. Didn't have to produce any proof; the mere possibility that couldn't be disproved was, in his view, sufficient justification for killing them. That's what American has now become. We had originally a list of 55 targets in Iraq. As that list was worn down, new lists were created, and now there are dozens of lists and thousands of targets. Could this not have been foreseen? Clearing a list involves "collateral damage" that creates a lot of people willing to be on the next list. I'm remind of Stalin remarking to Cherkassov (who portrayed Ivan the Terrible in the Eisenstein classic) that "Ivan's mistake was in not killing ALL of his enemies."

For those who think the Obama administration was a humane interlude, undeceive yourselves. At the first cruise missile strike in Yemen (aimed at al-Awlaki), only innocent children were killed. The Obama administration and its puppets in Yemen were determined to cover this up. A Yemeni reporter who went to the site found the remnants of the cruise missile, which marked it as an American operation. He was arrested and savagely beaten. There was a public outcry to release him, and the Yemeni government was about to do so, when it was stopped by a phone call from Obama, who wanted the guy kept in jail. (And that's where he stayed.)

It is Orwellian in its grandeur. Perpetual war, war without end, amen!
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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"Dirty Wars" (2013) by Jeremy Scahill

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:55 pm

"If" your policy is to engage in "kinetic interference" in the internal affairs of other countries 7000 miles away, it only makes good sense to kill the children of your animus. the greeks (and Romans) were right about many things. WAR: their innocent people being killed now to avoid our innocent people being killed later. The "error" in this sound strategy is having the kinetic interference in the first place.

While I support the Monroe Doctrine and all the interference AND SUPPORT that means for our vassal states........it is limited to the Western Hemisphere: especially when we are exporting energy now ourselves. Short sighted and corrupt to pull the same actions an ocean away.

I don't see any need to watch this documentary. ........................... Nothing new.
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Re: "Dirty Wars" (2013) by Jeremy Scahill

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:19 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:55 pm

I don't see any need to watch this documentary. ........................... Nothing new.
I find it interesting that after the murder of al-Awlaki, Scahill did some interviews to find out what laws the government was operating under, when a US citizen can be terminated without trial. As he pointed out, even John Walker Lynde was given a trial, and he went much farther than al-Awlaki, actually taking up arms against American soldiers. What he found out raises the term "Orwellian" to new heights: The relevant laws are CLASSIFIED INFORMATION. In other words, the President absolutely CAN LEGALLY order your murder, and NO, you are not allowed to know what the law is. It's a state secret, like Republican fiscal policy.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: Documentaries

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:27 pm

Upton: NOW you've caught my attention. Some kind of catch all National Security.......because in order to be guilty of violating the law, it has to be published. Just because you "can be" given a trial, doesn't mean you have to have one WHEN you are an enemy combatant on a battlefield. I've heard this described as a gray area, but I don't see why it would be.

.........and in an excess of clarity, by "nothing new" I mean that Dirty Wars with all kinds of heinous goings on is not new. OBL was oviously targeted and killed. Nothing new.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:20 pm

It is not established that al-Awlaki was an enemy combatant. He was an enemy cheerleader, but that's not the same thing. In any case, the issue has gotten even more acute since Scahill's documentary was produced.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: Documentaries

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:59 pm

Cheerleader is....................worse?

this is just like the French warships: anyone not clearly on our side: is the Enemy. Its how WAR resolves disputes: with a sledgehammer.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:50 am

I watched this documentary yesterday, on the massacre of essentially all the Jewish population of Jedwabne, Poland on July 10, 1941. The film was based on the 60th anniversary of this atrocity in 2001 and produced by Sławomir Grünberg, who has made about 30 films on the subject of Jewish history and life.

On this occasion, a lot of the survivors and their descendants came to town to commemorate the fact that Jews lived in Jedwabne for over two centuries. There was a ceremony to replace the old memorial stone, which had simply ascribed the massacre to the Nazis, with a new stone. The reason for the replacement was the considerable evidence that the Nazis had a lot of help from the local populace and indeed may not even have been the organizers of this particular atrocity. Needless to say, that position was VERY unpopular among the populace, especially with the local priest (ksiądz), who had worked out a whole theory as to exactly which units of the Gestapo were really responsible, a theory he continued to propagate among his flock until he died in 2003.

While there is no forensic evidence either way, the eyewitness testimony, some of it from Roman Catholics who were there, is convincing enough. The old woman Antosia, who sheltered 7 Jews during the time in her house, is sufficiently convincing to me. She also saved the life of a German soldier who became ill while being quartered in her home. She was savagely beaten when it was later revealed that she had sheltered the Jews, by people who said, "They killed Christ, and you gave them shelter!" (She wouldn't say whether it was Poles or Nazis who beat her. But really, if it had been Nazis, why would she hesitate to say so? In any case, it's not the sort of thing Nazis would be likely to say.) Also, she would not allow her house to be photographed, even in 2001, fearing reprisals from her fellow Poles if she did.

Those fellow Poles, at least the ones photographed in the background, wore expressions of sheer hatred on their faces. They were most unhappy about the ceremony, and indeed the whole town council boycotted it, except for the mayor (who has now emigrated to the US). Mostly, they seemed to fear that the Jews who showed up were going to make a claim for the property that was taken away from them or their ancestors, which was exactly the issue in the last European pogrom in 1946. (Grünberg has also made a documentary about that.) Meanwhile, the Polish government had done an investigation that concluded that indeed many Poles in that region took part in the massacres, in about 20 towns. The President of Poland appeared at the ceremony and made a public acknowledgement and apology. The new memorial stone, in Polish and Hebrew, commemorates the history of Jews in Jedwabne and the massacre, but does not mention any Polish participation in the latter. That was the compromise that the mayor said was necessary to protect the monument itself, which the local skinheads would have destroyed immediately otherwise.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: Documentaries

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:22 pm

Upton, excellent (and not such excellent) reading on Jedwabne is as follow - not to add to your reading list but . . . :

Gross, Neighbors: The Destruction of the Jewish Community in Jedwabne, Poland (2002)
Polonsky & Michlic, The Neighbors Respond: The Controversy over the Jedwabne Massacre in Poland (2009)
Chodakiewicz, Massacre in Jedwabne, July 10, 1941: Before, During, and After (2005)

There are many journal articles and polemical reviews and the like on this topic. I have a short bibliography of you're interested.

I think there's also a collection of essays replying to Gross, Polonsky, Michlic, and others from the Polish nationalist school - I can't find the book this morning and I've forgotten who edited it or maybe I am misremembering! Two names to look for, like Chodawkiewicz harshly critical of Gross and expounding the nationalist apology viewpoint, are Musial and Strzembosz.

A journalist from Warsaw, Anna Bikont, also has written about the massacre from the pov of Jedwabne today; her view further develops Gross'.

Gross recently gave a talk at our local Holocaust museum.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:45 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:22 pm
Upton, excellent (and not such excellent) reading on Jedwabne is as follow - not to add to your reading list but . . . :

Gross, Neighbors: The Destruction of the Jewish Community in Jedwabne, Poland (2002)
Polonsky & Michlic, The Neighbors Respond: The Controversy over the Jedwabne Massacre in Poland (2009)
Chodakiewicz, Massacre in Jedwabne, July 10, 1941: Before, During, and After (2005)

There are many journal articles and polemical reviews and the like on this topic. I have a short bibliography of you're interested.

I think there's also a collection of essays replying to Gross, Polonsky, Michlic, and others from the Polish nationalist school - I can't find the book this morning and I've forgotten who edited it or maybe I am misremembering! Two names to look for, like Chodawkiewicz harshly critical of Gross and expounding the nationalist apology viewpoint, are Musial and Strzembosz.

A journalist from Warsaw, Anna Bikont, also has written about the massacre from the pov of Jedwabne today; her view further develops Gross'.

Gross recently gave a talk at our local Holocaust museum.
Thanks, I've duly noted the books you listed and will (eventually) get around to them. Anna Bikont features prominently in the documentary. It was her family members who were sheltered by Antosia. She gets hate mail from other Poles, although she said (as of the date of the documentary) that she felt her prominence as a journalist made her invulnerable.

I meant to mention that, according to the documentary, the Polish government issued its report on Polish participation in pogroms, and surveys taken later indicated that 60% of Poles believed the government, 40% didn't. Those numbers look very much like Trump's disapproval numbers in the US. Is there a law of human nature at work, according to which 40% of the people simply refuse to face any unpleasant facts and go through life in a self-inflated bubble? I wonder.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: Documentaries

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:03 pm

one note: whilst the fallout from and responses to Neighbors are voluminous, Gross' book itself is short and a very quick read :)
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:29 pm

I’m at work right now...and I’m not happy about it.
:D
I have a project I’m working on that needs to get by the end of the week.

I just found Michael Moore’s Fahrenheit 11/9 on Prime and have it on for white noise. He did a short recap of Election Day (amusingly pointing out that when Trump and his entourage came out to proclaim their victory it looked like a perp walk. He also pointed out that everyone looked desperately unhappy) and then at the end he pauses and says...”How the {!#%@} did this happen????”
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

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https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: Documentaries

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:30 pm

Alright, so fixing some of these earlier comments...
Moore talks about the Flint water crisis, see this for details:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_water_crisis
Last edited by Jeffk 1970 on Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

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https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: Documentaries

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:30 pm

I’m still amazed that the scumbag Republican Governor got a second term. He was term limited and replaced by a Democrat. Moore, in one of his usual publicity stunts, tried a citizen’s arrest.
Last edited by Jeffk 1970 on Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: Documentaries

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:35 pm

LOL, that was funny, Moore brought water from Flint, Michigan and hosed down the Governor’s Mansion.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

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https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: Documentaries

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:36 am

Yeah, the longer this goes the less I respect I have for Obama.
He showed up in Flint and didn’t do a {!#%@} thing.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: Documentaries

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:46 am

It’s worth a look, it’s free on Prime.
Last edited by Jeffk 1970 on Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: Documentaries

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:35 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:36 am
Yeah, the longer this goes the less I respect I have for Obama.
He showed up in Flint and didn’t do a {!#%@} thing.
What should Obama have done?
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:48 pm

CNN is airing a program on the rise and fall of Richard Nixon called “Tricky Dick.”
I may tape and watch.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

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https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: Documentaries

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:07 pm

Tricky Dick........IIRC: committed several crimes while in office and everyone knew it but he kept an impeachment proof public good will and Senate Support until................it was privately communicated to the powers that be that the DOJ would charge him with crimes if he didn't step down. That did the ticket. Should still work today.........so far.........looks like the whole process will be kept political ergo Trump keeps his office and runs again.

Politics: one sleazy affair masquerading as everything else.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Goody67 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:08 am



The video is just under four hours long, but worth watching.
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Re: Documentaries

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:09 am

What makes it worth watching?

Any time hack(s) for a juicy climax?
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Goody67 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:10 am

"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first." - Mark Twain

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Re: Documentaries

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:31 am

What makes it worth watching?

Any time hack(s) for a juicy climax?
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Goody67 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:24 pm

"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first." - Mark Twain

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Re: Documentaries

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:25 pm

Guess why no one is watching these...........................
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Re: Documentaries

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:19 pm

Kind of a cool little blurb:
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: Documentaries

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu May 16, 2019 7:08 pm

As a change I started watching a four-part documentary on Netflix called “Age of Tanks.”
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544