The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:10 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Thanks for catching that whilst I looked at the photos! They missed both by a zillion. I will email WaPo - the numbers I have are IIRC ‘42 - ca 70,00 and ‘44 - ca 7,100 to Chelmno - I have to look up the Auschwitz number for ‘44.

USHMM lists 60,000 for August 1944:

https://www.ushmm.org/learn/timeline-of ... odz-ghetto

65,000-67,000:
https://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/lodz/statistics.htm

HEART has the same number:
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... hetto.html

60,000:
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/h ... .html#1944

In “Chelmno and the Holocaust” the number given is 54,500 and footnote is from “Chronicle.”

So, probably around 60,000. I don’t have “Chronicle” at home, it’s at work so I can’t confirm that number.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:11 pm

I generally go with lower numbers.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:26 pm

Here's what's in my notes:

Lodz Jews to Chelmno 1942 - 70,675
Lodz Jews to Chelmno 1944 - 7,186
Lodz Jews to Auschwitz 1944 - 70,067 est

-----------------------------------------------------
sources:
1942: Montague
1944 Chelmno: Montague
1944 Auschwitz: Strzelecki, Yad Vashem, JewishGen
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:31 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Here's what's in my notes:

Lodz Jews to Chelmno 1942 - 70,675
Lodz Jews to Chelmno 1944 - 7,186
Lodz Jews to Auschwitz 1944 - 70,067 est

-----------------------------------------------------
sources:
1942: Montague
1944 Chelmno: Montague
1944 Auschwitz: Strzelecki, Yad Vashem, JewishGen
Oops, you edited while I hunted.
:D

I saw the 70,067 but I think that’s total for the year, I focused on August of 1944 only. I think the 7,186 is a solid number for Chelmno.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:35 pm

That number is 9 August through 31 August 1944.

(True dat: I figured everyone was out having egg nog or glögg or otherwise :))
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:09 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote: (True dat: I figured everyone was out having egg nog or glögg or otherwise :))
Yeah, if I tried glogg it would plant me solidly on my ass and I would sleep for about two days. I have to go back to work tomorrow.

As for egg nog, I love the stuff but it doesn’t fit into my diet..... :D
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Hans » Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:03 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Here's what's in my notes:

Lodz Jews to Chelmno 1942 - 70,675
Lodz Jews to Chelmno 1944 - 7,186
Lodz Jews to Auschwitz 1944 - 70,067 est

-----------------------------------------------------
sources:
1942: Montague
1944 Chelmno: Montague
1944 Auschwitz: Strzelecki, Yad Vashem, JewishGen
For 1942, I posted the primary sources in Table 1 here.

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Hans » Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:49 pm



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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:32 am

Lol was just going to post this link!! Thanks Hans
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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:36 pm

A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:02 am

Bumping this for my Twitter friends.....
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:56 am

Can’t remember if I posted this video here but too tired to look:
Last edited by Jeffk 1970 on Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:50 pm

Zofia Szalek, an eleven-year-old girl who lived close to Chelmno, stated that the shoes of the German billeted in her house stank of decomposition:

https://books.google.com/books?id=Wh9QV ... no&f=false
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:51 pm

I was reminded of it reading Rees book on the Holocaust.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Hans » Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:24 am

The smell of the police members was likely a desinfection agent applied on those who came close to the victims and their belongings. This has been clarified by the local forester Heinrich May, who also thought at first it was the "smell of corpses".

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:36 pm

So, bumping this and will add as I go.

Per the “Chronicle of the Łódź Ghetto” the Germans succeeded in isolating the Ghetto better due to local conditions.

1) The inhabitants were not allowed copies of the Litzmander Zeitung, the official paper distributed by the Germans.
2) Smuggling was nonexistent (unlike the other ghettos) due to the Germans removing Polish inhabitants that lived close to the Ghetto boundaries.
3) The complete pacification of the city.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by montgomery » Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:50 pm

Hans wrote:The smell of the police members was likely a desinfection agent applied on those who came close to the victims and their belongings. This has been clarified by the local forester Heinrich May, who also thought at first it was the "smell of corpses".
That would be an issue regardless of how they died.

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:42 am

watch this space
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Hans » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:18 pm

montgomery wrote:
Hans wrote:The smell of the police members was likely a desinfection agent applied on those who came close to the victims and their belongings. This has been clarified by the local forester Heinrich May, who also thought at first it was the "smell of corpses".
That would be an issue regardless of how they died.
Actually that would be an issue regardless if anyone died. The lysol was applied on the police men because living people forced by the Nazis' policy to live under poor hygienic conditions were brought to Kulmhof.

Do you know what happened to those people, by the way?

It's a total mystery. I'm researching this "camp" (actually it was more like a fenced rotten mansion) for more than 1.5 years now, but I found no evidence to support outgoing transports, whereas there are train records to the next nearest station and other German sources on extensive incoming deportations as well as numerous testimonies on the flow of people to the site (but nobody has seen them leaving again). Not less puzzling is that huge amounts of clothing accumulated at Kulmhof that was shipped back to a place near Litzmannstadt, as if the Jewish people, who seem to have vanished from the face of the earth at the same time, did not need it anymore. The only known Jews who have left this camp alive escaped and submerged. Instead of any infrastructure to accomodate the mass of people brought in, there are only extended cleared mass graves and remains of cremation furnaces in the nearby forest.

It's just as if you could only survive this place if you escaped.

What kind of camp would that be? :?:

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by montgomery » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:30 pm

Hans wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Hans wrote:The smell of the police members was likely a desinfection agent applied on those who came close to the victims and their belongings. This has been clarified by the local forester Heinrich May, who also thought at first it was the "smell of corpses".
That would be an issue regardless of how they died.
Actually that would be an issue regardless if anyone died. The lysol was applied on the police men because living people forced by the Nazis' policy to live under poor hygienic conditions were brought to Kulmhof.

Do you know what happened to those people, by the way?

It's a total mystery. I'm researching this "camp" (actually it was more like a fenced rotten mansion) for more than 1.5 years now, but I found no evidence to support outgoing transports, whereas there are train records to the next nearest station and other German sources on extensive incoming deportations as well as numerous testimonies on the flow of people to the site (but nobody has seen them leaving again). Not less puzzling is that huge amounts of clothing accumulated at Kulmhof that was shipped back to a place near Litzmannstadt, as if the Jewish people, who seem to have vanished from the face of the earth at the same time, did not need it anymore. The only known Jews who have left this camp alive escaped and submerged. Instead of any infrastructure to accomodate the mass of people brought in, there are only extended cleared mass graves and remains of cremation furnaces in the nearby forest.

It's just as if you could only survive this place if you escaped.

What kind of camp would that be? :?:
You're doing a lot of researching Hans and I hope it leads to your own satisfaction in order to allow you to make some specific claims.

However, you have now gained yourself a reputation as one who promotes fiction and then claims it to be real.

I suggest you return again to the Mogliev gassing thread because S.M. is attempting to revive it with proof that it was indeed a film made at Mogliev. What the point of that exercise could be, I have no idea. But I've asked some questions of S.M. that I would be surprised if he answers. He never has so far! Maybe you can.

On the positive side for you Hans, he appears to be trying to make the claim that the vid isn't faked. This could lead to salvaging your reputation. I look forward to that with an open mind, as a skeptic.

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:49 pm

coming soon!
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by montgomery » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:02 pm

montgomery wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:30 pm
Hans wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Hans wrote:The smell of the police members was likely a desinfection agent applied on those who came close to the victims and their belongings. This has been clarified by the local forester Heinrich May, who also thought at first it was the "smell of corpses".
That would be an issue regardless of how they died.
Actually that would be an issue regardless if anyone died. The lysol was applied on the police men because living people forced by the Nazis' policy to live under poor hygienic conditions were brought to Kulmhof.

Do you know what happened to those people, by the way?

It's a total mystery. I'm researching this "camp" (actually it was more like a fenced rotten mansion) for more than 1.5 years now, but I found no evidence to support outgoing transports, whereas there are train records to the next nearest station and other German sources on extensive incoming deportations as well as numerous testimonies on the flow of people to the site (but nobody has seen them leaving again). Not less puzzling is that huge amounts of clothing accumulated at Kulmhof that was shipped back to a place near Litzmannstadt, as if the Jewish people, who seem to have vanished from the face of the earth at the same time, did not need it anymore. The only known Jews who have left this camp alive escaped and submerged. Instead of any infrastructure to accomodate the mass of people brought in, there are only extended cleared mass graves and remains of cremation furnaces in the nearby forest.

It's just as if you could only survive this place if you escaped.

What kind of camp would that be? :?:
You're doing a lot of researching Hans and I hope it leads to your own satisfaction in order to allow you to make some specific claims.

However, you have now gained yourself a reputation as one who promotes fiction and then claims it to be real.

I suggest you return again to the Mogliev gassing thread because S.M. is attempting to revive it with proof that it was indeed a film made at Mogliev. What the point of that exercise could be, I have no idea. But I've asked some questions of S.M. that I would be surprised if he answers. He never has so far! Maybe you can.

On the positive side for you Hans, he appears to be trying to make the claim that the vid isn't faked. This could lead to salvaging your reputation. I look forward to that with an open mind, as a skeptic.
The Mogliev gassing hoax is dead Hans and in case you're behind the curve and missing it, so is the gas chambers hoax. The world is not so stupid anymore Hans and won't buy cheap bull--it. Elie Weisel is now introducing the new and improved version of the holocaust because it has become necessary to stop the bleeding. Get the hell over it!

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:11 pm

Um....Eli Wiesel is dead.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:21 pm

Seriously? Why doesn't anyone tell me anything? Sheesh, did they ever figure out why he forgot to fake a tattoo on his arm?
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by montgomery » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:33 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:21 pm
Seriously? Why doesn't anyone tell me anything? Sheesh, did they ever figure out why he forgot to fake a tattoo on his arm?
Join us in throwing Weisel to the wolves of holocaust denial

Not just in time but far too late!

Next faker up, Hans's last faker on deck and Weisel in the hole!

And anxiously waiting to destroy the next bogus eye witness you try to foist on us!

edit: can we do a gas chamber one?

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:36 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:21 pm
Seriously? Why doesn't anyone tell me anything? Sheesh, did they ever figure out why he forgot to fake a tattoo on his arm?

Well, I didn’t think anyone would take me seriously because I’m not a reliable source of information. I don’t acknowledge anything on Carlos Porter’s website.

:D
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:46 pm

LOL phew, I thought we'd lost our only witness ...
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by montgomery » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:54 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:36 pm
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:21 pm
Seriously? Why doesn't anyone tell me anything? Sheesh, did they ever figure out why he forgot to fake a tattoo on his arm?

Well, I didn’t think anyone would take me seriously because I’m not a reliable source of information. I don’t acknowledge anything on Carlos Porter’s website.

:D
You don't have to acknowledge anything that contradicts your H.P.'er line.

Not even your instructions that are coming from promotions central.

holocaustpromos dot com

It's not going away anytime soon.

Especially spooky shadows on the wall of your own promoters' offering!

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:13 am

I thought I was employed by Hasbro.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:25 pm

A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Hans » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:06 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:25 pm
Ran across this today:
http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/sub ... ge_id=3763
Yes, absolutely disturbing picture.

The truck and the guard are quite possibly from the transport commando of SK Kulmhof. The police man is dressed in a white safety suit, which was meant to protect those members of the extermination camp who could get in contact with the victims from infections.

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:38 am

Nick Terry has just published an excellent article on Chelmno, "Covering Up Chelmno: Nazi Attempts to Obfuscate and Obliterate an Extermination Camp," in Dapim.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:21 pm

Astute observation, provoked by Nick Terry's article on Chelmno, from Gilles Karmasyn: "Les nazis furent les 1er négationnistes. Ce fait est finalement peu étudié."

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Balmoral95 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:49 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:38 am
Nick Terry has just published an excellent article on Chelmno, "Covering Up Chelmno: Nazi Attempts to Obfuscate and Obliterate an Extermination Camp," in Dapim.
Jesus wept,S tat Mech, these HC Promoters want money for that!***

*** Posted to reinforce the notion amongst our denier friends that all Jews are money-grubbers.

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Hans » Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:48 pm

Just a quick post to remind Carlo that he needs to revise the gas van chapter of his Einsatzgruppen book. Completely. And would be still doomed to fail.

SK Lange and Mattogno's Italian Book on the Einsatzgruppen

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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:47 pm

Posted in another thread, reposted here:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... n.html?m=1
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
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Jeffk 1970
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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:50 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:56 am
Can’t remember if I posted this video here but too tired to look:
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Jeffk 1970
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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread/Lodz Ghetto

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:53 am

A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Jeffk 1970
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Re: The Chelmno/Gas Van Thread

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:39 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:57 pm
So, at this point I want to look at the evolution of the gas vans.

Herbert Lange, the original commandant of Chelmno, also conducted some of the first experimental gassings of Polish psychiatric patients at Fort VII. Originally Lange was attached to Einsatzgruppen VI during the invasion of Poland, this Einsatzgruppen murdered Polish elites considered dangerous to German interests (one of several such units who probably deserve a thread of their own). After the dissolution of this unit in November of 1939, Lange joined the Gestapo office in Poznan. He participated in the execution of Polish citizens convicted by German courts (among other duties) and later (possibly) became the commandant of the aforementioned Fort VII. I qualify that because records are lacking on this, however, he definitely was involved at Fort VII in some capacity.
(Chelmno and the Holocaust, see chapter I detailing the Euthanasia Program as background)

The first experimental gassings occurred in a sealed room at Fort VII and involved the use of Carbon Monoxide gas cylinders.
Henryk Mania, the Polish prisoner used as a Sonderkommando, described the scene:
Two trucks, loaded with people, were parked in the courtyard of Fort VII and surrounded by SS men. These people were mentally ill, you could tell by looking at them. We were ordered to take these people from the trucks to a separate bunker. The SS men supervised us, yelling and pushing. We also carried steel cylinders, like those used for oxygen, from the truck and put them near the bunker. After leading the people into the bunker and closing the iron door, the SS men ordered us to seal the door with clay, after which they took us back to our cell. After a short period of time, we were again taken to the courtyard. We were ordered to remove the clay, open the door and remove the corpses of the gassed mental patients. I found out later that the prisoners in whose cell we were placed had done this previously; they themselves told me. I carried the corpses from the bunker to the truck. After loading the truck with the corpses of the patients, we were returned to our cell. The gassing of the mental patients described above was repeated several more times [...] However, I do know that they were patients brought to Fort VII from the psychiatric hospital in Owi ń ska near Pozna ń . 19 (Henryk Mania 1967: 271.) (Chelmno and the Holocaust, page 19)


These initial experiments led to the first mobile killing vehicles. Per Montague, no documents exist for these proto-gas vehicles (unlike the later gas vans that are actually well documented). Unfortunately we only have witness statements detailing these vehicles.
Henryk Maliczak, the Fort VII prisoner and gravedigger for Sonderkommando Lange:
“This vehicle was converted for this purpose in the courtyard of the Soldier’s Home, the Gestapo headquarters in Pozna ń . Four prisoners from our group, including myself and the carpenter Józef Szyma ń ski, had to line the interior of the vehicle with plywood.” 26 (Henryk Maliczak 1967: 261. Maliczak is undoubtedly referring to Stanisław Szyma ń ski.)


Patrick Montague goes on to state that this particular vehicle was emblazoned with “Kaiser’s Kaffee Geschäft” [Kaiser’s Coffee Company], a well-known German firm, founded in 1880. As far as it can be determined there was only one such vehicle.
The vehicle was described as large, black, hermetically sealed van with the inscription “Kaiser’s Kaffee Geschäft. It used cylinders of Carbon Monoxide gas as detailed by Henryk Mania, who recalled the operation in Ko ś cian where he and twelve other prisoners, along with shovels, pickaxes and cylinders of gas, were taken to a forest to dig the graves for the patients. The Polish prisoners also carried the steel cylinders to the gas van, which were connected to a valve, and then operated by a member of the Sonderkommando. After the victims suffocated to death, the Poles emptied the van and buried the patients in pits.

So, this first van (there are some reports of a second vehicle but Montague considers them unreliable) used cylinders of Carbon Monoxide instead of exhaust. I will look at these vans in my next post.
Not sure if this is listed anywhere in this thread but per Montague the first gassings using these vans occurred on December 7th, 1939. These took place at the Dziekanka Psychiatric Hospital in Gniezno. This is located about 50 kilometers (approximately 31.069 miles) from Poznan. The gassings continued until December 19th. They then picked up again on January 8th and continued for two days.
(Footnoted Jan Gallus, ‘Dziekanka w latach 1939–1945 oraz jej udział i rola w wyniszczaniu umysłowo chorych Polaków’, Rocznik Psychiatryczny 37/ 1 (1949): 78. Translation: Jan Gallus, 'Dziekanka in 1939-1945 and its role and role in the destruction of the mentally ill Poles', Rocznik Psychiatryczny 37/1 (1949): 78.)
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843