March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Darren Wilshak » Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:47 pm

If its Monty and VFX running the same account then its a trip to Pyrrho,

'multiple account violation'

as that idiot NKVD enforcer used to say.

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:59 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote:If its Monty and VFX running the same account then its a trip to Pyrrho,

'multiple account violation'

as that idiot NKVD enforcer used to say.
Nah, socks aren't a problem here. "Previously banned user" is. They go right out the way they came in. But if such a one has sock(s), they usually cling to him when he goes through the washer. I'd say dryer, but cleaning is for the wash. :lol:
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Darren Wilshak » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:12 pm

How can you be sure, do you have sophisticated sock puppet sweeping routines and heuristic identity analysis systems, mmm?

;)

Why yes 'Mr' Gerdes departed in such a manner and clutching his monomaniacal mass graves questionairre I recall...

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:27 pm

Pyrrho usually knows.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Darren Wilshak » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:32 pm

He does too.

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by VFX » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:06 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote:If its Monty and VFX running the same account then its a trip to Pyrrho,

'multiple account violation'

as that idiot NKVD enforcer used to say.
One might consider you a sock of John Cleese. I am sure I saw him here the other day somewhere. Oh yes Jeff, a great fan of Monty Python.

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:14 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote:How can you be sure, do you have sophisticated sock puppet sweeping routines and heuristic identity analysis systems, mmm?

;)

Why yes 'Mr' Gerdes departed in such a manner and clutching his monomaniacal mass graves questionairre I recall...
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:35 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Darren Wilshak wrote:How can you be sure, do you have sophisticated sock puppet sweeping routines and heuristic identity analysis systems, mmm?

;)

Why yes 'Mr' Gerdes departed in such a manner and clutching his monomaniacal mass graves questionairre I recall...
WendyO
IIRC, that was a very short performance. :lol:
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:06 am

To help with the unfinished business of this thread, and lest casual readers be confused by some of the false claims made here, first installment:
German Footage of a Homicidal Gassing with Engine Exhaust. Part 1: Provenance.

Author: Sergey Romanov

German Footage of a Homicidal Gassing with Engine Exhaust
Part 1: Provenance
Part 2: Location
Part 3: Responsibility (I)
Part 4: Responsibility (II)
Part 5: Responsibility (III)
Part 6: Forgery Allegation

The only known German footage of a homicidal gassing can be seen in the documentary Nuremberg: Its Lesson for Today (1948), partially available, among other places, at USHMM's website, 0:44-1:21. The USHMM description reads:
CU pipes from a German police car bearing a license plate POL-28545 and a German police truck with license POL-51628 (as well as military unit markings: 7 circle-with-flag IX). Apparently metal piping is directed into the brick work of a small brick building, in an area that appears to be a bricked up window or door. Projected against the wall is what appears to be the shadow of a man in uniform. Five emaciated men pass on an open farm cart/wagon to a wooded location; a tall naked emaciated man and two emaciated children (different from those seen first) are led by a man and a woman in white lab coats to the building. Small red cross appears on man's white coat sleeve. The man and woman put blankets around the patients' shoulders as they are led toward the building (and over a child lying on the cart). A uniformed man - probably German - is visible in the background, along the fence, watching the scene. CU car and pipes connecting the car exhaust to the building. [Scene is consistent with descriptions of September 1941 experimental killings by Einsatzgruppe B of patients from a local asylum in the area of Mogilev, Belarus. Corresponding still images were used in evidence at the trial of Albert Widmann.]
The question of what the events on the tape correspond to will be addressed by Hans in parts 3 to 5 of this multi-part article. In this part we'll take a look at the issue of the provenance of this footage.

Usually it is claimed that the film was found in 1949 in the Berlin apartment of Arthur Nebe, the former commander of Einsatzgruppe B. E.g. Gerald Reitlinger writes (The Final Solution, 2nd edn., 1961, p. 137):
This story von dem Bach-Zelewski’s finds some confirmation in the discovery in 1949 in Nebe’s former Berlin apartment of an amateur film, showing a gas chamber operated by the exhausts of a car and a lorry.
However it had already been used in the above-mentioned documentary, so we know that at least Reitlinger's date is incorrect. The documentary's director was Stuart Schulberg. How did he acquire the footage? We learn the story from a 2012 article by his daughter Sandra Schulberg, entitled "Filmmakers for the prosecution: the making of Nuremberg: Its Lesson for Today" (pdf):
Belated Find

More than six months had passed since the Nuremberg judgment. Schulberg and Zigman were pushing hard to complete their film, working out of cutting rooms at Berlin’s Tempelhof Studio. In June, they found new, explosive footage. It was turned over to Schulberg by a Dr. Rudolf Goldschmidt, who had acquired the Berlin residence of Artur Nebe, former commander of SS Einsatzgruppen B. In September and October 1941, Nebe’s SS unit had been charged with liquidating the Jews of Mogilev and Minsk, as well as patients from the area’s lunatic asylums. Their efforts were facilitated by Albert Widmann, a chemist affiliated with the Forensics Institute in Berlin, who conducted what are believed to be the Nazis’ first experimental gassing of human beings. This use of an improvised gas chamber was apparently filmed by Nebe himself. Based in part on the success of this experiment, the Nazis later applied this method of asphyxiation on a wider scale, deploying mobile gas vans in the occupied territories. Indescribing the find, Schulberg wrote: “This material is the only known film showing such an atrocity at the very point of being committed. In our opinion, it is a most vital and important contribution to the film evidence of Nazi barbarism.”
One of the footnotes to this paragraph reads:
Memo from Stuart Schulberg to Dr. Goldschmidt, June 18, 1947, acknowledging receipt of the film material shot by Nebe, and describing its content, Schulberg Family Archive.
The memo is also mentioned in the list of documents pertaining to the film's origin at Sandra Schulberg's website dedicated to the film:
Date: 18 JUN 1947 From: Schulberg To: Dr. Goldschmidt, Film-Verleih, Kleiststrasse Description: Memo, footage found in your house depicts gas chamber, vital evidence
Elsewhere on the website we find this important notice:
The papers of Stuart Schulberg revealed that he added the sound effect of the car’s engine running. That sequence, now with the sound removed, forms part of a special “Deadly Medicine” exhibit at the Holocaust Museum.
The following then applies only to the visual part of the footage.

Before 1933 Dr. Rudolf Goldschmidt was a representative of Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer in Germany, as a "half-Jew" he remained in Berlin during the wartime, apparently in hiding, after the war he became the head of the Film Distribution Agency and then a representative of the Motion Picture Export Association (B.S.Chamberlin, Kultur auf Trümmern. Berliner Berichte der amerikanischen Information Control Section Juli - Dezember 1945, 2010, S.37fn14).

Arthur Nebe's address can be found in Berliner Adreßbuch 1943, Bd.1, S. 2058: it is listed as Hoensbroechstrasse 59. Since 1947 it's Ilsensteinweg 59.

If we then take a look at the International Motion Picture Almanac, 1950, p.697, we see that "Dr. Rudolph Goldschmidt" is listed with the address "Ilsenstein Weg 59".

Sandra Schulberg's information is thus amply confirmed: Dr. Goldschmidt did acquire Nebe's former Berlin residence and thus was in a position to find what lay hidden there. Since Dr. Goldschmidt was involved in the film business, it is also not surprising that he knew Stuart Schulberg and turned his find over to him.

The provenance of the footage is thus established: it was found in Arthur Nebe's residence not later than in June of 1947.
with permission from: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ssing.html
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:08 pm

Given the unusual circumstance that we have members objecting to the conclusions of the HC article which Hans linked to, but refusing to read the article, here is installment 2:
German Footage of a Homicidal Gassing with Engine Exhaust. Part 2: Location.
Author: Sergey Romanov

Having established the gassing film's provenance we shall now take a look at the issue of where the film was shot.

Note: this post contains lots of images. < all missing, see link below >

It is usually claimed that the scene depicts a gassing in Mogilev. However there were also some testimonies about similar early gassings elsewhere (Minsk), so we should make sure that we have the right location. In order to do this we should examine photos of the Mogilev psychiatric hospital, specifically of the location where the gassing is claimed to have taken place.

After some searching we were able to find a good photo of the place in Istoriya mogilyovskogo evrejstva. Dokumenty i lyudi, book 2, part 2 (2nd. edn.), 2010, s. 194.

< image missing, see link below >

The caption reads: "The modern view of the building of the psychiatric hospital in which the fascists carried out an action of extermination of the patients."

Based on several indications* we decided that the window on the right is the most likely candidate for the exact location shown in the film. We then prepared two images for a comparison. One from the photo above:

< image missing, see link below >

And one from the film:

< image missing, see link below >

Note however that the photos were taken from different angles. Therefore we "unskewed" them with the Perspective Crop tool and then overlaid them on top of each other (which required some stretching). The unskewing wasn't quite perfect due to the quality of the images, but it's enough for an analysis. By controlling the opacity of one of the images we could then create a series of images where one photo "blends" into another, allowing for a direct visual comparison. We also marked several areas on the photos with the more obvious coincidences.

< 5 images missing, see link below >

Here < link missing, see link below > is an animated gif that we prepared based on these images.

We're satisfied that the photos depict one and the same wall. It's not about the brickwork pattern as such, which is pretty standard. It's about the unique features.

The areas marked on the images (the "straight line" (green rectangle) which on the first photo logically continues upwards - because that's where the window used to be; the clearly visible extruding lower part of the wall on one image and the human shadow distorted by these extruding bricks on the other image (blue rectangle); the brick of different color (orange rectangle)) as well as the positions of the matching areas in relation to each other (the extruding part to the straight line, the straight line to the dark brick, etc. etc.) cannot be explained away as a coincidence due to the same brickwork pattern. Moreover, the parallel rows of long and short bricks do not perfectly align with each other on both photos - and the alignment "defects" are same in both images (cf. especially the large blue circle on the right, with the upper long brick shifted slightly to the left compared to the lower long brick).

Our conclusion is therefore that the footage was, indeed, shot at the Mogilev psychiatric hospital.

-------
* Note: A short explanation of the "heuristic" thinking here: witnesses Stepanov (the chief physician at the Mogilev psychiatric hospital from Aug.1941 to Jan. 1942) and Pugach (also a psychiatrist there) testified in 1944 that the bandaging room was converted by Prieb into a gas chamber (see Istoriya..., op. cit, ss. 193ff.). That is, a specific room is known to have been a gas chamber, and it should be one of the rooms whose windows are shown on the modern b/w photo above. There are two windows with "straight lines" under them, matching the footage. An article here shows the current state of the gas chamber. Based on the form of the window grating on the photo of the inside of the room we could exclude one of the two windows and thus propose, hypothetically, that the remaining one is the window. Further analysis in this article confirmed this.

Updated on 27.05.2016.
with permission: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ng_23.html
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by montgomery » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:22 pm

Other than all the missing photos, it appears that the case is made that this faked film was indeed at Mogliev.

So I'm wondering if there is a point to be made on that conclusion? If the photos do indeed show evidence of it being at Mogliev then does that assert that it has to genuine? Is it impossible that it's at Mogliev and still be fake?

That which I've bolded above would seem to be the only reason why this lengthy post that really doesn't say anything else?

So that's my question. I thought this was a completely settled issue of it being faked but I'm anxious to entertain it further if something in that lengthy post is applicable. Maybe I'm missing a point that is important but so far I can't imagine what it could be. I will remain skeptical but with an open mind. Consider this a rational challenge.

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Hans » Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:32 pm

A little poll out of curiousity, who - other than our resident Holocaust deniers - considers the Mogilev gassing footage "fiction" and who does not?

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:32 pm

Not fiction, clearly; for not having thought much about previously, it was Sergey Romanov's series that convinced me
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:45 pm

I consider it genuine based upon the explanation given.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:52 pm

Ditto
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:12 pm

Wellllllllll.....

No problem with the film itself. But i do have a question regarding the fact that it was found in Nebe's apartment 2 years after his execution. Seems unlikely that those arresting him wouldn't have thoroughly tossed that apartment in furtherance of their investigation.

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:15 pm

Just to expand on this a bit...
There is something....sterile is the best word I can use to describe this. It’s very matter of fact, it looks like a test of some sort where the victims don’t know what is going to happen and only those filming it know what this is.

I’ve seen Soviet films created for propaganda purposes. There are some examples in the documentary “The Unseen Holocaust'.” The women making dramatic gestures, the quality of the filming, these things make it obvious.

If this was some type of fake I expect more detail would show up, more dramatic gestures (struggling victims and “beastly Huns”), something to make it obvious what was occurring. The same with something from the British or Americans but maybe a little more subtle.

This is just a film made to document an event. There was no need to spice it up in anyway.

Just my opinion.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:26 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:Wellllllllll.....

No problem with the film itself. But i do have a question regarding the fact that it was found in Nebe's apartment 2 years after his execution. Seems unlikely that those arresting him wouldn't have thoroughly tossed that apartment in furtherance of their investigation.
Maybe it was found during a remodel and subsequent tearing out of stuff (not unusual).

Considering (PDF) footnote 49
Artur Nebe eventually turned against Hitler and Himmler, becoming involved in assassination plots against both men...
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:32 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:Wellllllllll.....

No problem with the film itself. But i do have a question regarding the fact that it was found in Nebe's apartment 2 years after his execution. Seems unlikely that those arresting him wouldn't have thoroughly tossed that apartment in furtherance of their investigation.
Maybe it was found during a remodel and subsequent tearing out of stuff (not unusual).

Considering (PDF) footnote 49
Artur Nebe eventually turned against Hitler and Himmler, becoming involved in assassination plots against both men....
Could be. Or could be at the time of his arrest March '45, the investigators figured they had an open and shut case and didn't bother at all. With evidence provenance issues I just like stuff tied up neatly. In this case we'll probably never know. :D

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:47 pm

As to the PDF, just after the point which scrmbdlggs cited comes this statement, quoted,
“This material is the only known film showing such an atrocity at the very point of being committed. In our opinion, it is a most vital and important contribution to the film evidence of Nazi barbarism.”51
Without disagreeing with the point that such footage is, for good reasons, extremely rare, it is clearly not correct to say that this film is the only such film; we've discussed a number of times the short movie of the execution of Jews at Skede Beach shot by Reinhard Wiener, a German naval officer; I feel sure that I've seen other footage of Nazi atrocities . . .
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Darren Wilshak » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:13 pm

This refusing to read stuff, is it a re-run of General Ripper's Purity of Essence?

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:37 pm

LOL according to this thread, whilst the Nazis used humor in 1941 to deny gassing the insane, our deniers use a dreary version know-nothingism in 2018
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by montgomery » Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:41 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Just to expand on this a bit...
There is something....sterile is the best word I can use to describe this. It’s very matter of fact, it looks like a test of some sort where the victims don’t know what is going to happen and only those filming it know what this is.

I’ve seen Soviet films created for propaganda purposes. There are some examples in the documentary “The Unseen Holocaust'.” The women making dramatic gestures, the quality of the filming, these things make it obvious.

If this was some type of fake I expect more detail would show up, more dramatic gestures (struggling victims and “beastly Huns”), something to make it obvious what was occurring. The same with something from the British or Americans but maybe a little more subtle.

This is just a film made to document an event. There was no need to spice it up in anyway.

Just my opinion.
That shadow on the wall was pretty spicy Jeff! It literally screams of pure bogus. The best approach would have been to admit that it was a trial run of the procedure that may or may not have been used. Sort of like a remake in reverse of a documentary that needs to resort to fabricated scenes to illustrate what might have been reality. And then claim it as just that. A remake of the real thing.

Do you have any idea what s.m. was on about with the lengthy post trying to prove that it was at Mogliev? Doesn't the bulk of the evidence point to it being some place other than Mogliev?

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:23 am

Darren Wilshak wrote:This refusing to read stuff, is it...
... the tantrum of a willful child?
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Balmoral95 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:32 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Darren Wilshak wrote:This refusing to read stuff, is it...
... the tantrum of a willful child?
Nah, he's a learner:

viewtopic.php?p=663742#p663742

:lol:

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:40 am

:laff:
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Denying-History » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:38 am

montgomery wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Just to expand on this a bit...
There is something....sterile is the best word I can use to describe this. It’s very matter of fact, it looks like a test of some sort where the victims don’t know what is going to happen and only those filming it know what this is.

I’ve seen Soviet films created for propaganda purposes. There are some examples in the documentary “The Unseen Holocaust'.” The women making dramatic gestures, the quality of the filming, these things make it obvious.

If this was some type of fake I expect more detail would show up, more dramatic gestures (struggling victims and “beastly Huns”), something to make it obvious what was occurring. The same with something from the British or Americans but maybe a little more subtle.

This is just a film made to document an event. There was no need to spice it up in anyway.

Just my opinion.
That shadow on the wall was pretty spicy Jeff! It literally screams of pure bogus. The best approach would have been to admit that it was a trial run of the procedure that may or may not have been used. Sort of like a remake in reverse of a documentary that needs to resort to fabricated scenes to illustrate what might have been reality. And then claim it as just that. A remake of the real thing.

Do you have any idea what s.m. was on about with the lengthy post trying to prove that it was at Mogliev? Doesn't the bulk of the evidence point to it being some place other than Mogliev?
Why are you spelling Mogilev (Могилёв) as Mogliev?

Recommended reading on the location where it is shown to by Mogilev with photographs:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ng_23.html
Sergey Romanov wrote:We're satisfied that the photos depict one and the same wall. It's not about the brickwork pattern as such, which is pretty standard It's about the unique features.
And two possible reasons why you fail to understand this:
- Intellectual Disability
- Bad Faith
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Hans » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:44 am

Balmoral95 wrote:Wellllllllll.....

No problem with the film itself. But i do have a question regarding the fact that it was found in Nebe's apartment 2 years after his execution. Seems unlikely that those arresting him wouldn't have thoroughly tossed that apartment in furtherance of their investigation.
A few points on this issue:
Nebe was not a clear suspect for some time after the 20 July 1944 plot. According to the account of Bernhard Wehner, head of the RSHA office V B 1 and initially in charge of the search for Nebe after he disappeared, Himmler still expressed the possibility that Nebe may have been just insane (Wehner, "Das Spiel ist aus - Arthur Nebe", Der Spiegel, 30 March 1950). The first team that looked for Nebe consisted exclusively of men of his own Criminal Police. The Gestapo men took the lead as the involvement of Nebe and the Criminal Police became more likely. The latter had little interest in finding Nebe and many Gestapo men were likewise old colleagues of him. Wehner recollects that the Gestapo man leading the manhunt "did nothing" himself to find Nebe and that none of the officials of the Criminal Police "showed any desire to seriously find their boss" (Wehner, "Das Spiel ist aus - Arthur Nebe", Der Spiegel, 13 April 1950). Wehner suggests that the police would have "forgotten" about Nebe if he did not ask for attention with another fake suicide attempt (Wehner, "Das Spiel ist aus - Arthur Nebe", Der Spiegel, 30 March 1950).

According to Wehner, the housing of Nebe's wife in Joachimsthal was "mildly" searched by the Criminal Police and later "harsher" by the Gestapo (Wehner, "Das Spiel ist aus - Arthur Nebe", Der Spiegel, 6 April 1950). Based on eyewitness accounts obtained after the war, Wehner reconstructs that how in November 1944 the Gestapo searched Nebe's actual whereabouts in Motzen (after the Criminal Police had no success earlier). The house search was done "superficially" and "listlessly" within 15 minutes and the garden with Nebe's hide-out was not even looked at (Wehner, "Das Spiel ist aus - Arthur Nebe", Der Spiegel, 13 April 1950). So much on the Gestapo's "thorough search" in the case.

Given these circumstances, it seems possible that own Nebe's house was not thoroughly searched. There is no indication that the police or the Gestapo confiscated anything from Nebe's house or waded through his private stuff. Or that they were bothered about Nebe's film archive. Or were interested in some shots from his time in the East unrelated to the 20 July 1944 plot. Furthermore, it is not clear if the film roll with the Mogilev scenes was placed on a shelve or had been hidden - in the latter case it seems not unlikely that the rather superficial and listless Gestapo would not found it, whereas Goldschmidt could have stumbled across the hideout, for example, during renovation work of his new house.
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ssing.html

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Balmoral95 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:54 am

Hans wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:Wellllllllll.....

No problem with the film itself. But i do have a question regarding the fact that it was found in Nebe's apartment 2 years after his execution. Seems unlikely that those arresting him wouldn't have thoroughly tossed that apartment in furtherance of their investigation.
A few points on this issue:
Nebe was not a clear suspect for some time after the 20 July 1944 plot. According to the account of Bernhard Wehner, head of the RSHA office V B 1 and initially in charge of the search for Nebe after he disappeared, Himmler still expressed the possibility that Nebe may have been just insane (Wehner, "Das Spiel ist aus - Arthur Nebe", Der Spiegel, 30 March 1950). The first team that looked for Nebe consisted exclusively of men of his own Criminal Police. The Gestapo men took the lead as the involvement of Nebe and the Criminal Police became more likely. The latter had little interest in finding Nebe and many Gestapo men were likewise old colleagues of him. Wehner recollects that the Gestapo man leading the manhunt "did nothing" himself to find Nebe and that none of the officials of the Criminal Police "showed any desire to seriously find their boss" (Wehner, "Das Spiel ist aus - Arthur Nebe", Der Spiegel, 13 April 1950). Wehner suggests that the police would have "forgotten" about Nebe if he did not ask for attention with another fake suicide attempt (Wehner, "Das Spiel ist aus - Arthur Nebe", Der Spiegel, 30 March 1950).

According to Wehner, the housing of Nebe's wife in Joachimsthal was "mildly" searched by the Criminal Police and later "harsher" by the Gestapo (Wehner, "Das Spiel ist aus - Arthur Nebe", Der Spiegel, 6 April 1950). Based on eyewitness accounts obtained after the war, Wehner reconstructs that how in November 1944 the Gestapo searched Nebe's actual whereabouts in Motzen (after the Criminal Police had no success earlier). The house search was done "superficially" and "listlessly" within 15 minutes and the garden with Nebe's hide-out was not even looked at (Wehner, "Das Spiel ist aus - Arthur Nebe", Der Spiegel, 13 April 1950). So much on the Gestapo's "thorough search" in the case.

Given these circumstances, it seems possible that own Nebe's house was not thoroughly searched. There is no indication that the police or the Gestapo confiscated anything from Nebe's house or waded through his private stuff. Or that they were bothered about Nebe's film archive. Or were interested in some shots from his time in the East unrelated to the 20 July 1944 plot. Furthermore, it is not clear if the film roll with the Mogilev scenes was placed on a shelve or had been hidden - in the latter case it seems not unlikely that the rather superficial and listless Gestapo would not found it, whereas Goldschmidt could have stumbled across the hideout, for example, during renovation work of his new house.
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ssing.html
Many thanks!

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Denying-History » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:54 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:As to the PDF, just after the point which scrmbdlggs cited comes this statement, quoted,
“This material is the only known film showing such an atrocity at the very point of being committed. In our opinion, it is a most vital and important contribution to the film evidence of Nazi barbarism.”51
Without disagreeing with the point that such footage is, for good reasons, extremely rare, it is clearly not correct to say that this film is the only such film; we've discussed a number of times the short movie of the execution of Jews at Skede Beach shot by Reinhard Wiener, a German naval officer; I feel sure that I've seen other footage of Nazi atrocities . . .
Are you sure it wasn't referring to just Gassing alone?
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Balsamo » Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:05 am

Der Spiegel, 1950 ? Really ?

Even when i was a child in Germany, it was already known as a Junk paper...It did not get any better since...

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Balmoral95 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:16 am

Balsamo wrote:Der Spiegel, 1950 ? Really ?

Even when i was a child in Germany, it was already known as a Junk paper...It did not get any better since...
Agreed, but the editor of Der Angriff had met with "forces beyond his control"... :mrgreen:

Sorry, had to... :D

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:50 am

Okay, good that montgomery has gotten some help reading vague conclusions like "Our conclusion is therefore that the footage was, indeed, shot at the Mogilev psychiatric hospital." That is Mogilev, not Mogliev. In fairness, that's a puzzler, the location identification, it wasn't written in large characters with red crayon, so how could montgomery be expected to figure it out? He must have thought that I was trying to pull a fast one.

We can move on to installment 3, please note that the author of the final installments is Hans Metzner:
German Footage of a Homicidal Gassing with Engine Exhaust. Part 3: Responsibility (I).
Author: Hans Metzner

In 1961 - 1963, West-German investigators sought to find out who was responsible for the gassing action shown on the photographs available to them (they were not aware that the stills were taken from the film Nuremberg: Its Lesson for Today from 1948, see also the first part on provenance). The scene displays two German police vehicles with their exhaust tubes connected to a gas chamber, an Adler car with the license plate POL 28545 and a truck with the license plate POL 51628 as well as some military symbols. The key to track down the perpetrators of the scene was considered to identify the units to which these vehicles were assigned. Whoever placed and operated them at the site, was also responsible for the action.

The most promising approach seemed to understand the military symbols at the back of the truck. But neither the Militärgeschichtliches Forschungsamt in Freiburg, the Bundesarchiv in Koblenz and the Institut für Zeitgeschichte in Munich nor several former police and military leaders in the East questioned by the investigators could help to clarify these symbols - except for one former police general who thought to decipher the military symbol as "seventh message [unit] from the Wehrkreis Kassel" (interrogation of Güsken of 11 December 1961, BArch, B 162 / 4340, p. 35). Unfortunately, such a unit was unknown and this hint was a dead end.

Since the vehicles had belonged to the German police, the investigators went forward to ask among employees of the German Criminal Police for identification of the vehicles, but without explaining the background and showing the exhaust tubes. The police officer Ernst Korn believed to know that the military symbols on the truck belonged to a previously mounted, now motorised police unit assigned to the Wehrmacht, but he doubted that a clear identification was possible since the sign is cropped off (Sichting to Landeskriminalamt Baden-Würrtemberg of 26 March 1962 & interrogation of Korn of 6 April 1962, B 162 / 4340, p. 53 & p. 55).

Was this the unsatisfactory end of the search? Not quite so. The former motor pool head of the first company of the police reserve battalion no. 3 (Pol. Res. Bat. 3) operating for Einsatzkommando 8, Ernst Else, still possessed a list of vehicles including license plates of his former fleet - among these also POL 51628, the same as on the truck on the gassing footage. According to Else, the truck was a Ford V8 assigned to Einsatzkommando 8. Another driver of Pol. Res. Bat. 3 attached to Einsatzkommando 8, Walter Finger, confirmed that the police license plate belonged to one of their trucks (interrogation of Else of 21 December 1962 & interrogation of Finger of 18 September 1963, BArch B 162 / 4340, p. 59 & p. 185).

Thus, the gassing on the footage was most likely carried out by or with the help of members of Einsatzkommando 8 of Einsatzgruppe B. The commando settled down in Mogilev on 9 September 1941 (Activity Report of the Einsatzgruppen no. 90 of 21 September 1941, in Cüppers et al., Die Ereignismeldungen UdSSR 1941. Dokumente der Einsatzgruppen in der Sowjetunion I, p. 515). This also strongly corroborates Sergey's finding in the previous part that the gassing scene took place at the asylum in Mogilev, and vice versa.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:55 am

Denying-History wrote:Are you sure it wasn't referring to just Gassing alone?
I took it as such atrocities as mass murder, but it is ambiguous. Thanks.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:31 pm

I won't get to this fast because I have some other work to do but this morning I started reading Kay & Stahel, Mass Violence in Nazi-Occupied Europe. In the intro the editors note that among the papers included is one by Winkler & Hohendorf on the extension to the occupied East of the Reich's program for the murder of mentally and physically disabled people. They state that with the Eastern extension the program by war's end claimed 300,000 victims - over 4x the number of T-4 and wild euthanasia victims in the Reich so often cited. Pertinent to this thread is the editors' comment that Winkler & Hohendorf's paper pays particular attention to the murders of patients in Mogilev. I'll post in this thread anything in Winkler & Hohendorf's paper that expands on or differs to the HC series.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by VFX » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:46 pm

Oh please this author has just watched the Shadows on the Wall film and made his own interpretation of it. There is no investigation or apparent truth, just people quoting each other.

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Balmoral95 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:51 pm

VFX wrote:Oh please this author has just watched the Shadows on the Wall film and made his own interpretation of it. There is no investigation or apparent truth, just people quoting each other.
For his full review of the book dial 1-800-HUN-PUNK!

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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:53 pm

Please don't quote his/her posts, better yet, don't read them, don't even look at them, Balmoral. As stated elsewhere, the user feels (paraphrased) observed and his/her privacy invaded by such vile behavior.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:05 pm

Agree with scrmbldggs but can't help pointing out that the paper by Winkler & Hohendorf is surely among the vast list of works on the period which the member has not read.
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Re: March 1941: Nazis use humour to deny gassing the insane

Post by Hans » Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:48 pm

Balsamo wrote:Der Spiegel, 1950 ? Really ?

Even when i was a child in Germany, it was already known as a Junk paper...It did not get any better since...
Balsamo, Der Spiegel is not the issue here. As mentioned, the article cited was written by Bernhard Wehner himself. One may certainly talk about the reliability of his account, which may have aimed to whitewash the role of the Criminal Police during the Third Reich, but that is irrespective of whether it was published in Der Spiegel, Stern, National-Zeitung, Brigitte or as book.

(by the way, Der Spiegel has actually a relatively good reputation especially for its investigative journalism, e.g. the The New Encyclopaedia Britannica writes that "the magazine is renowned for its aggressive, vigorous, and well-written exposes of government malpractice and scandals and for its photography...Der Spiegel is noted for its aggressive pursuit of news without regard to the peace of mind of the German government.")