It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:39 pm

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote: I did some very brief research on this. Turns out that these state laws deal with the BDS Movement.

Here is a list of states that have these laws:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ant ... egislation

Here is information about the BDS Movement:

https://bdsmovement.net/

I’m in favor of boycotting Israel to force a two-state solution.
It's such a long and difficult story.

In case I was sure that BDS is about a two-state solution, I'd be too in favor. But I'm not. And that's because I've read their own statements:

For example:

- In Their Own Words
http://www.stopbds.com/?page_id=48

- True Origins of BDS
http://contrabds-callmyth.evidencewatch.com/

I can't support calls for euthanasia of the Jewish state.

- The Goal of the Israel Boycott, divest, and sanction (BDS), LA Review of Books, 16/03/2014
https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/goal-boycott#!
The goal of the boycott movement is not peace: it is the elimination of the State of Israel. This is the logical implication of all its arguments. Its supporters refrain from spelling out this endgame in order to avoid scaring off moderates who would reject the eliminationist agenda, but the end of Israeli sovereignty altogether is the clear purpose of the movement. It will fail in this pursuit, and Israel will survive, but the radicalism of the boycott movement is succeeding in poisoning debate on the Middle East.
In my opinion, this is the progressive stand pertaining BDS:

- The Third Narrative, What’s the Problem with BDS? A Progressive Critique
http://goo.gl/Cwu12C

- Why supporters of "two states" should not join the BDS "smash Israel" boycotters - Solidarity, yes! Boycott, no!, Workers' Liberty, 05/08/2007
http://www.workersliberty.org/node/30426

- David Hirsh, Why BDS is antisemitic, 01/06/2016
https://engageonline.wordpress.com/2016 ... vid-hirsh/
Sorry, just to be clear:
I’ve seen the information about BDS, I’m wary of them because of some of the odd ties they have to different organizations. I also met some BDS supporters on-line, they are some really harsh people and they only support a single Palestinian State.

Israel and the US will never go for a single state for obvious reasons. I’ve also pointed out that Israel is a nuclear power themselves, what would happen to those nukes?

I honestly believe that a two-state solution is the only solution, along with treaties guaranteeing both borders.

The problem is that Israel is continuing to build settlements and defying UN Resolutions regarding these settlements. This is why I think it will take sanctions to force Israel to give up and withdraw those settlements.

It’s probably the wrong thread for it. I’m not up to date as much on the current politics, I read through some of the links you e-mailed me and I found them very informative. What I don’t appreciate is someone calling me antisemitic for criticizing Israel, I criticize my own government and that doesn’t make me un-patriotic.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:03 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:The problem is that Israel is continuing to build settlements and defying UN Resolutions regarding these settlements. This is why I think it will take sanctions to force Israel to give up and withdraw those settlements.

It’s probably the wrong thread for it. I’m not up to date as much on the current politics, I read through some of the links you e-mailed me and I found them very informative. What I don’t appreciate is someone calling me antisemitic for criticizing Israel, I criticize my own government and that doesn’t make me un-patriotic.
Of course, it's a very sensitive issue and a very thin line (I personally believe the line is crossed when someone starts to talk for the destruction of the Jewish state), and I believe, first of all, people have to learn all the facts, before anything else.

Actually, I'm against building new settlements, too, but it's such a complicated issue, that needs for all of us to search deep to find out what is the case. So, we have to look for accurate information. I was in surprise to learn that from 1991 until this year, Israel hasn't in fact build any new settlements.

The employment of phrases such as “Israeli settlement building” and “construction of Jewish settlements” obviously leads people to mistakenly believe that Israel is constructing new communities rather than –as is actually the case– building homes in existing towns and villages, most of which would under any reasonable scenario remain under Israeli control in the event of an agreement.

But there are other problems, more important, in the greater picture. This five minutes video explains a lot about the case (which, I agree, better continue somewhere else in the future):

From one of the 'new historians', very informative:
- Benny Morris: Settlements are an obstacle to peace
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXi9JjUjLhY

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:04 pm

1. "From what I know now, I believe it was a myth that imperialism planted Israel." //// Doesn't make any sense at all but an unproductive shift in labels........for what goal, I can't see. Israel was created by the UN Declaration. they had other choices like Southern Germany?

2. I don't find the situation in Israel all that complicated. Israel is taking and holding land for their people BY FORCE.... just like every other freaking NATION STATE in history. Why is Israel held out as doing anything unique? What is unique and the nub of the problem is Israel is too small to absorb anti-Israel groups/interests of any size at all without risking its very existence. That is rather unique..... along with being surrounded by peoples united in their opposition to the very existence of Israel. What would anyone expect except ANY people fighting back for their existence????? If Israel acted like any other nation state....they would expell all minority groups...or put a few onto reservations with limited rights.

3. What is the justification for "Two Israels?" Why not two Americas?....or 3 or 4? One for Americans who took and hold the land by FORCE, others for the groups that want the land (back?) under various claims of right?

NOTHING NEW ABOUT ISRAEL..............except sloppy thinking...... and thinking that emphasizes good feelings while avoiding naturally flowing consequences.

As long as the PLO advocates and agitates for the removal of Israel from the Map..............they deserve ONLY what Israel chooses to give them........which so far has been a velvet glove....not even as harsh as what the PLO's own brothers in arms give them.

Just look.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Balsamo » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:36 pm

Indeed, it is not the right thread to discuss those matters...

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:43 pm

Because the New Trump Thread is all about Holocaust Denial?.............which has nothing to do with the realities facing Israel?
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:49 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:But I disagree with the last sentence that I quoted above. You say "The Arabs already had..." There is no such thing as "The Arabs..." They are a diverse bunch of Sunnis, Shias, Wahabis (whose corrupt Saudi regime is overdue for overthrowing, but which the United States continues to arm to the teeth), Sabeans, Kurds, Coptic Christians, and others. As for Israel being "only 0.16%" of the soil, my house is only 0.00001% of the land area in my state. I wouldn't consider that a good reason for giving it to someone else. There WERE other people living on that land.

But, in the end, I agree with you. We'll not solve this problem here. The best we can do is insist on accuracy and fairness in argument. You are yourself a good example of that.
Of course, this is the logical thought that makes sense. Allow me, please, just two footnotes.

I didn't use the term 'the Arabs' in an abstractive, general way. In my mind there was a specific Arab entity, called the Higher Arab Committee, formed in 1945 by the majority or maybe all of the Arab states, and some say with one purpose, to deal with the problem with the Jews (there was another committee with the same name in the 1930s). All these main Arab countries opposed the resolution, voted against it, and promised to go to war to prevent its implementation. Representing the Palestinians, the Arab Higher Committee also opposed the partition Plan and threatened war (while the Jewish Agency, representing the Jewish inhabitants of the Palestine Mandate, supported the plan).

You see, they were acting as one, they were negotiating as one, and finally they declared war to Israel -actually Holy War- as one. And then, it was the name they chose, 'Arab Liberation Army'. This Arab army attacked the Jews long before the declaration of Israel, in fact the next day of the vote for the Partition Plan.

And if someone searches, he will find some not so pleasant statements. For example:
- The Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, stated in September 1947 that the core problem was not a Palestinian state or Jewish expansionism, but the duty to uproot the Jewish presence in Palestine, which was defined by Muslims as Waqf – an area divinely endowed to Islam and not to the 'infidel.'
- The same: 'It will be a war of annihilation. It will be a momentous massacre in history, which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres or the Crusades.'
- Jamal Husseini, the Arab Higher Committee's spokesman and Acting Chairman had told the UN prior to the partition vote the Arabs would drench 'the soil of our beloved country with the last drop of our blood.'
- The same: 'The representative of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday that they were not the attackers, that the Arabs had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight'.
- The same: 'Palestine shall be consumed with fire and blood if the Jews get any part of it.'
- The Commander-in-Chief of the Arab Liberation Army, Fawzi el-Kaukji, a notorious Nazi collaborator, in August, 1947 threatened: 'Should the UN vote the wrong way, we will initiate a total war... murder, wreck and ruin everything'

- But also: Ismayil Safwat, Commander-in-Chief of the Arab Liberation Army: 'The Jews have not attacked any Arab village, unless attacked first.' (March 23, 1948)

Funny thing, the representative of the Arab Higher Committee to the United Nations submitted a statement to the General Assembly in May 1947 that said "Palestine was part of the Province of Syria" and that, "politically, the Arabs of Palestine were not independent in the sense of forming a separate political entity."

- The Arab Higher Committee published a pamphlet in March 1948 urging the evacuation of women, children and the elderly from areas affected by the fighting. The local Palestinian leadership (or 'National Committee') in Jerusalem heeded this call, ordering Jerusalem Arabs to evacuate these populations, and asserting that those who resisted doing so would be seen as 'an obstacle to the Holy War' and as 'hampering' the actions of the Arab fighters.

Worth mentioning that this executive body was chaired by the renown Hajj Amin al-Husseini that was to lead the Palestinians both in the 1936-1939 Revolt and in the 1947-1948 war against the Yishuv, referred to the Palestinian National movement as "the holy national jihad movement."

And the truth is, they violated UN Resolution 181 and the decision of the Security Council or of the General Assembly and the UN Charter.

For more:

https://archive.is/WkL8c

http://www.jpost.com/Blogs/Classroom-Ba ... ion-474115

The second fact is that the partition plan was fair, was not unjust: UN gave the areas with Jewish majority to Jews, and areas with Arab majority to the Arabs. We should not forget, also, that the 80% of the original area meant to be a 'Jewish home' was given to the Jordanian Arabs in order to form Transjordan. They promised that they would not ask for anything more, but they didn't keep their promise. Again, the Jews said OK, because of the desperate need to form a home, even in the size of a tablecloth. But yet again, in 1947 the Arabs said No.

The fundamental fact remains that had the Arabs and the Palestinians accepted the Partition Resolution and not violated the UN Charter by attacking Israel, there would be a 70-year-old Palestinian state today next to Israel, and there would not have been a single Palestinian refugee.
Just as today, it seems that even in 1948 the Arab side was more concerned with opposing the Jewish state than with creating a Palestinian state. This is why the problem remains unresolved.
There are in fact three separate conflicts that are erupting in the same place, involving more or less the same people. They have separate goals, but they are interwoven in a complex way, which is detrimental to the ending of any of them.
The first is the political conflict between the State of Israel and the PLO and its embodiment as the Palestinian Authority. This is a dispute over borders, settlements, security and other geopolitical issues.
The second is the national conflict between the Jewish people and those of the Arabs whose self-defining national narrative is that of Palestinians. This is a dispute that can be described as an argument for the historical title on the land between the river and the sea.
The third is the religious conflict between Jews and Muslims.

I don't know if there is someone today who can solve this problem, and I doubt that Trump or Jared can take in consideration all these.

That's it, just for clarification, hoping we'll continue somewhere else.

[EDIT: Added some quotes]
Last edited by Kleon_I XYZ Contagion on Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:05 pm

History shows these problems are always solved by FORCE............or often the weaker party recognizing their position and giving up/assimilating/waiting for the next best chance to solve the problem by their use of force.

What keeps the area embroiled is the weaker party thinking they can have a political win by popular vote at the UN or World Opinion, or some loopy boycott.

Accepting early two state solutions would have resulted in which what happened: successive wars to destroy Israel and the Jews. Just as what would happen NOW with any formal normal Nation States of the PLO put into play.

What might solve the problem would be for Israel to declare their rule over the entire area contested and expel all the Arabs to the neighboring states and Man the Walls: JUST LIKE ALL OTHER NATIONS DO.

I know..........nasty business. Isn't that the reality? Muddling around in unrealistic middle ground WILL only prolong the conflict. ...............course, there is always conflict.

Choose your conflict.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:20 pm

I don’t think it matters much what’s posted here. It’s not like a Chelmno or EG thread in the least. The thread is a shambolic disaster of fears, aspirations, anger, links, off the cuff opinions, resentment, daydreams, caring and sharing, thoughtful assessments of current happenings, personalities, US and world problems and The Leader of the Movement - and dumb trolling from gorgeous. Anything seems to go and Israel IMO is a fine topic for such a mess as this thread, Jeffk.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:30 pm

another excellent example of accepting reality...........or whats fun.............or the dearth of choices.............

Again: choose your conflict.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by gorgeous » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:27 pm

Wilson is a fraud
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Balsamo » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:33 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Because the New Trump Thread is all about Holocaust Denial?.............which has nothing to do with the realities facing Israel?
No because it is about Trump, hence not about Israel.
There is a thread that could be used to discuss that...somewhere...

EDIT HERE:
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26670

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Balsamo » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:52 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:History shows these problems are always solved by FORCE............or often the weaker party recognizing their position and giving up/assimilating/waiting for the next best chance to solve the problem by their use of force.

What keeps the area embroiled is the weaker party thinking they can have a political win by popular vote at the UN or World Opinion, or some loopy boycott.

Accepting early two state solutions would have resulted in which what happened: successive wars to destroy Israel and the Jews. Just as what would happen NOW with any formal normal Nation States of the PLO put into play.

What might solve the problem would be for Israel to declare their rule over the entire area contested and expel all the Arabs to the neighboring states and Man the Walls: JUST LIKE ALL OTHER NATIONS DO.

I know..........nasty business. Isn't that the reality? Muddling around in unrealistic middle ground WILL only prolong the conflict. ...............course, there is always conflict.

Choose your conflict.

Well there was this thing, you know the "post war dream" where conflicts would be resolved peacefully and collectively, where the use of force would be used as the last resort, what's name again of this silly dream...Oh international laws, the UN, the Security council, the International court of Justice...Or on a Regional basis, like in Europe...Those concept of the European Council, the European Court of Justice, the European Union...

Sorry to disappoint you, but it kind of worked and it is still working, at least on the Regional level. The last war between two European Nation ended in 1945...72 years a historical record!
That does not mean that there are no conflicts...The European Court of Justice is full of conflicts involving member States...

Bobbo, you are so deep into your so called pragmatic fatalism that you don't even realize how many craps you write!

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:18 pm

Thanks Balsamo.

I just returned from reviewing the first 10 pages of this thread. You were "on topic" the whole time. I gave up because I was just going to quote you and then say: "So What?" I see everything as an opportunity to expand ones appreciations...not a vice lock to restrict them. Consistency being a hobgoblin and all that....... besides.... Stat Mech agreed..........so ..... case closed???
Balsamo wrote: Well there was this thing, you know the "post war dream" .......
EXACTLY. And all I say is: "Wake Up." Stop sleeping and DEAL WITH REALITY. Dreaming: entirely solipsistic. Reality.... actually dealing with a problem.
Balsamo wrote: Well there was this thing, you know the "post war dream" where conflicts would be resolved peacefully and collectively, where the use of force would be used as the last resort, what's name again of this silly dream...Oh international laws, the UN, the Security council, the International court of Justice...Or on a Regional basis, like in Europe...Those concept of the European Council, the European Court of Justice, the European Union...
Ha, ha..........that is such a mishmash of realities, dreams, powerplays, maneuverings, ............. games.

DISAGREEMENTS might get settled by negotiations brokered by third parties........but never "conflicts."==>or am I reading you too closely?? No...thats me...I'm sure several conflicts were resolved by the peaceful use of threats of superior force by some authorized entity?

INTERNATIONAL LAWS: Uniformly referenced and lauded when on your side, Uniformly ignored, when not. aka: A Fairy Tale.
Balsamo wrote: Sorry to disappoint you, but it kind of worked and it is still working, at least on the Regional level. The last war between two European Nation ended in 1945...72 years a historical record!
That does not mean that there are no conflicts...The European Court of Justice is full of conflicts involving member States...
I thought "the credit" went to Nuclear Bombs and MAD?...as always, the UN being used as stated above. How long did it take you to narrow down and through out all the exceptions to get to "between two European Nations"?==>which is CLEARLY IRRELEVANT when discussing Israel and the Surrounding Arabs. When the pros and the cons are evaluated and added up and going to war is not worth it: one vouches for International Law. When it doesn't for mostly "pique" and nothing else: The UK goes to WAR with Argentina over the Faulklands. Why? Because Force and perceived self interest is what controls. When the Arabs invaded the newly half formed Israel....should Israel have fought back...........or appealed to the UN?
Balsamo wrote: Bobbo, you are so deep into your so called pragmatic fatalism that you don't even realize how many craps you write!
Well....thank you for half realizing the basis of my comments: Pragmatism. I'd say Pragmatic Real Politik. Fatalism is a conclusion that would have to be fleshed out. In the main...fatalism means the same as pragmatic?==the same as Real Politik??????????? aka: What happens if do do or don't do something????

Seems to me for the last 72 years (sic) Israel as been engaged in trying to be a Nation State while trying to be "friends" with its neighbors who have sworn to and have tried to annihilate them. What is it then to recognize after 72 years, maybe that is an "attitude" that won't work?................and then look to what DOES WORK. Sure.... you can lose a lot of people as the decision is implemented........but how many people are "saved" thereafter as the new reality sets in?
Balsamo wrote: Bobbo, you are so deep into your so called pragmatic fatalism that you don't even realize how many craps you write!
Name one crap. I'm here to learn. To challenge/contest/learn. To have the most considered position.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:39 pm

. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:34 am

Keep 'em coming. I send every one of these links to my neighbor, who kept nagging me with claims that Democrats were inciting violence and someone was going to get hurt as a result. (Haven't heard from him lately on that subject.)
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:35 am

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote: That's it, just for clarification, hoping we'll continue somewhere else.
Thanks. I'll join in as I find time. But I can't begin to match the depth of knowledge on the Holocaust that you and StatMech and Balsamo and Balmoral95 and Jeffk have. So, I'm mostly here to learn and get books to add to my reading list.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Balmoral95 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:41 am

Okay, but does this mean we can't discuss in this thread how Kushner single-handedly in the first 30 days solved the Israeli conflict? :lol:

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Balsamo » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:53 am

Well, as a start, you seem to be messing up concepts like political pragmatism and RealPolitik. Both are not fatalist by definition, while you clearly are.
Pragmatism is to consider as true something that actually works, that is works in practise, in effect, so it is true. Real Politik is also similar in the sense that it analyses things through facts, tangible circumstances, and concrete factors...in other words, data. It excludes things like moral considerations, values, and other intangible factors.
None of those concept implies war or conflicts per se. It is just an approach, almost philosophical.
You can have a pragmatic stance of the European construction for example. Actually you can be pragmatic in love and live happily! :D
The same way, Realpolitik can be used to achieve positive objectives.

Fatalism on the other hand is a belief that the result of an analysis of events is indisputable, because its outcome is predetermined and predictable, as shown by the analysis. So whatever could be tried to change the curve is by definition rejected because considered doomed to fail.

(sorry, i am clearly out of my common vocabulary, here).

I would defined myself as a pragmatic as well: i tend to believe in what works or could work because it had worked and to be suspicious of ideological initiatives. I am also aware that given "Human nature" (which is of course open to debate), there will always be limits to what can be achieved, and that perfection cannot be reached, but there is nothing that should prevent us, poor human creatures, to try to get as close as possible to these limits, to attempt to reach the less form of imperfection.

In a International affair perspective, that would be to start from the minimal form of consensus and start trying to progress from this thin base.

You wrote:
DISAGREEMENTS might get settled by negotiations brokered by third parties........but never "conflicts."==>or threats of superior force by some authorized entity?am I reading you too closely?? No...thats me...I'm sure several conflicts were resolved by the peaceful use of threats of superior force by some authorized entity?
Of course it is easier to get disagreements settled by negotiations than it is to settle conflicts. But because you cannot have armed conflicts without disagreements, it is the point of those preventive policies, that is conflict prevention.
But then, sometimes you are right, and the threat of superior forces is needed to change a belligerent's attitude. By definition, war and a conflict situation is only worth if there is something to be gained, if the prospect of a benefits is replaced by a prospect of a loss, then attitudes can change.

The UN, that is the security council (once united) managed to stop the war between India and Pakistan overnight.
INTERNATIONAL LAWS: Uniformly referenced and lauded when on your side, Uniformly ignored, when not. aka: A Fairy Tale.
Not really.
If have once been involved in a trial, it is basically the same: frustration, anger, and a cry of "there is no law" when you lose, while you would bless the system if the Court's decision is in your favor.
Actually, you would be surprised to learn that international laws actually work in many domains.
The problem starts when one of the Great Powers gets involved, so i am aware that perfection will never been reached.
But then, just like in the real life, laws is what prevent you from committing a crime, because before committing it, there will be a little voice that would warn you of the consequences of what you are about to do.

The fact that our societies are regulated by Laws does not mean that crimes are not committed, or that contrary to what we are told in movies, crimes does not pay (actually, it does) , but that should not be used to reach the conclusion that "national laws" are useless and should be ignored.
Neither should one conclude that all legislation are fair and just.
But because they are a system, they can be changed and improved.

What is true for national laws is - pragmatically - true for international laws.
I thought "the credit" went to Nuclear Bombs and MAD?...as always, the UN being used as stated above. How long did it take you to narrow down and through out all the exceptions to get to "between two European Nations"?==>which is CLEARLY IRRELEVANT when discussing Israel and the Surrounding Arabs.
The Nuclear Bomb for European peace? Really?
Well i don't agree. First because, there is no point in using a nuclear bomb in any European conflict, given the seize of the territory. During World War 2, both sides had chemical weapons and both sides did not use them, but chemical weapons did not prevent world war 2, right?

Actually what happened was a global understanding that wars were only leading to disaster, and that it was about time to change paradigms. The base of the European construction is the economic exchange of the resources that used to be fought for, in the 50's that was steel and coal. It all started pragmatically, Bobbo. And it worked.

Sorry to say, but it is not irrelevant when discussing Israel and its neighbors.
If France and Germany who had been at war three times in less than a century could forgive themselves and cooperate, then everything is possible.
Oh, i am aware than only a handful of lunatics would have thought that possible in 1871, 1914 or 1940, but it took place in 1950.
But then, your phrase " Israel and the surrounding Arabs" is one of the source of the problems. It only reflects ignorance and arrogance, sorry to say. It is a real problem because there won't be progress if there is no understanding that those people are involved in the disputed land. Those are not Arabs, those are the people who also used to live there.
Ignorance because it ignores the various ethnicity among the Muslim population of the middle east.
If Arabs means not christian or not Jews, then you ignores that Arabs can be Jews as well as christian, if you mean a kind of race, then it is close to the racist theories of the Boers of South Africa.

This should not be understood as a plea for the Palestinians, they too obviously have some personal reconsideration to make.

But that is how conflicts are resolved, outside the use of military forces, it is when both side start to reconsider the situation, to seriously think if there is not a more favorable future than to keep trying to kill each others.
In a pragmatic view, i maintain that it can be done.
Then there is the fatalist stance that basically says that if it has not been possible in 70 years, it never will.
Well that is BS.

Remember that the French and the Germans started their first great war in 1870 and ended in 1945...75 years, and multi millions of dead!

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:59 am

Balmoral95 wrote:Okay, but does this mean we can't discuss in this thread how Kushner single-handedly in the first 30 days solved the Israeli conflict? :lol:
As far as I'm concerned that's a new purpose of this aimless thread.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:46 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Keep 'em coming. I send every one of these links to my neighbor, who kept nagging me with claims that Democrats were inciting violence and someone was going to get hurt as a result. (Haven't heard from him lately on that subject.)

Well, this is the obvious solution when a reporter pisses you off.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:53 am

if you can't take their license, shoot 'em
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Balmoral95 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:40 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:Okay, but does this mean we can't discuss in this thread how Kushner single-handedly in the first 30 days solved the Israeli conflict? :lol:
As far as I'm concern't bugged ned that's a new purpose of this aimless thread.
Meh, it's the Lounge here. As long as management is fine, so what...

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:43 am

Balsamo wrote:You wrote:...
Did not!





I know, I know. :-P
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:35 am

Balmoral95 wrote:Meh, it's the Lounge here. As long as management is fine, so what...
Yup. Anything goes here. This thread is our version of the Haight or a '60s happening. Do your own thing. Tune in, turn on, drop out. Let your freak flag fly.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:02 pm

DNC woes continue, donors holding out as party limps forward without coming to terms with its 2016 debacle - is Perez getting the job done?
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:05 pm

snapshot of America made great again, the country in The Age of Trump: HIV, hepatitis C risk in areas where opioid addiction is high (so-called Trump counties), lack of plans and means to understand - let alone combat - the problem
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:29 pm

DJT: "Crooked Hillary Clinton spent hundreds of millions of dollars more on Presidential Election than I did. Facebook was on her side, not mine!"

(not a simple story: earlier reports have Trump's campaign taking FB up on offers of targeted help, Clinton's rejecting the pitch)
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:33 pm

Victory! How sweet it is! And we owe it all to this man:
Donald Trump wrote:The defeat of ISIS in Raqqah represents a critical breakthrough in our worldwide campaign to defeat ISIS and its wicked ideology. With the liberation of ISIS’s capital and the vast majority of its territory, the end of the ISIS caliphate is in sight...We have made, alongside our coalition partners, more progress against these evil terrorists in the past several months than in the past several years...They’re giving up, they’re raising their hands, they’re walking off. Nobody’s ever seen that before...Because you didn’t have Trump as your president. I mean, it was a big difference. I mean, there’s a big, big difference if you look at the military now.
Uh, no, Donald. ISIS fighters fight to the death. They don't raise their hands and walk off. For many of them, death is a goal fer Chrissakes!

Well, I heard this all 50 years ago: "It was necessary to destroy the village in order to save it."

But don't start rebuilding Raqqa just yet. With ISIS reduced to impotence, you've still got a country where Assad controls most of the territory and is backed by Russia, while a smaller portion of it is occupied by rebels backed by the United States. Let's hold off on the rebuilding until these guys negotiate a property settlement between them.

Still, I must admit that this victory has brought peace to Raqqa. Just look at those scenes and tell me it isn't peaceful there. It's going to be peaceful there for years to come.
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“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:42 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:snapshot of America made great again, the country in The Age of Trump: HIV, hepatitis C risk in areas where opioid addiction is high (so-called Trump counties), lack of plans and means to understand - let alone combat - the problem
But we know Trump keeps his promises: "Everybody will be covered", and "the government will pay for it":



So, it's clear that we now have "great health care."

MAGA!!!
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:52 pm

Balsamo: I'm half way into your excellent review and have decided to respond point to point as so moved as so many different issues and facts are covered. No rank order here, just as they appeared.

1.
Well, as a start, you seem to be messing up concepts like political pragmatism and RealPolitik. Both are not fatalist by definition, while you clearly are.
Hmmm...you say I have them messed up but in the following verbage you agree they are similar. Will this mean anything? I'll read with interest, but I posted here to wonder what in the HEY! do you mean by I am fatalist by definition which I might let pass except you accentuate this by saying it is "clearly" so. I don't see myself as fatlistic at all, nor from other posters as pessimistic, so I look forward to you fleshing this personality aspect out...half way through below, you haven't done so yet. I'll stay tuned.

2.
Fatalism on the other hand is a belief that the result of an analysis of events is indisputable, because its outcome is predetermined and predictable, as shown by the analysis. So whatever could be tried to change the curve is by definition rejected because considered doomed to fail.
Well......"everything" is disputable. Nature, especially human affairs is a chaotic system. I don't agree at all that History repeats itself..... but rather that it rhymes. Tendencies.... not absolutes. Have to be comfortable with ambiguities. Everything should be tried, evaluated....rinse, lather, and repeat. So....you seem to be defining pessimism more than Fatalism....but since I declare I am neither, I'll let those so inclined sign on for the duty. To be relevant: seems to me you would/should have to show where anything I said matches this description? And when done.....it would still only be the description rather than the label that would apply. Again, half way through, you haven't done that .........yet.

3.
(sorry, i am clearly out of my common vocabulary, here).
Hah!==>that is an excellent recognition. I don't like that feeling myself. firm in conviction, but when not discussed for some time (decades???) it does feel rusty and possible to forgotten bear pits to avoid. So far.........you read very well. Its the connections I hope to see.

4.
I would defined myself as a pragmatic as well: i tend to believe in what works or could work because it had worked and to be suspicious of ideological initiatives.
That is another excellent close analysis. I don't know if I am pragmatic by first choice, or by rejection of "indealogical initiative" which over time almost seem to uniformly fail. I wouldn't deny that pragmatism fails too........maybe just not as often or on different (longer if not forgotten) time scales?

5.
But because you cannot have armed conflicts without disagreements, it is the point of those preventive policies, that is conflict prevention.
"Conflicts" is a very troublesome word. Conflict is conflict which can be thought of as including or totally different from "armed" conflict. Its a devil word.

6.
Actually, you would be surprised to learn that international laws actually work in many domains.
I did not mean to suggest they did not and actually stated (impliedly) just the opposite as in: they are lauded when they work. but they obviously DON'T WORK all too often......SO OFTEN...they can't be relied on and this also reveals that most likely, "something else" is going on.

7.
But then, just like in the real life, laws is what prevent you from committing a crime, because before committing it, there will be a little voice that would warn you of the consequences of what you are about to do.
More expansively....its "recognized SELF INTEREST" that prevents crime, recognizing the role/applicability of the LAW and other Real Politik consequences that flow from actions including unknown and unintended consequences that keep people and nations in line........much, but not all, of the time.

8.
but that should not be used to reach the conclusion that "national laws" are useless and should be ignored.
They are in the main useless WHEN ignored. Getting back to or initiating what is the "something else" that is going on that you touched upon: the interest of the Great Powers.=====which is to connect to my theme: FORCE or the threat thereof. Its what rules the World, not laws, international or otherwise.

9.
The Nuclear Bomb for European peace? Really?
Your first unforced error. In context.....CLEARLY not Europe.......that was expressly (sic...maybe not but in context) agreed to.

10.
First because, there is no point in using a nuclear bomb in any European conflict,
I'm reading "fresh" at this point. Your point as I understood it was that INTERNATIONAL LAW was keeping the peace. International to me means more than just European which is why I agreed it worked for Europe but was irrelvant for Israel vs Arabs, or even Uk vs Argentina. I think this is all off point.

11. Chemical Weapons are not MAD and not used as much for recognized self interest as any potential military advantage.

12.
Actually what happened was a global understanding that wars were only leading to disaster
That is way over broad and Pollyannaish....and ironically actually a European Centric Notion mostly highlighting that "War" (not to mix up the vocabulary too outlandishly) moved on to economic contest if not conflict, more subtle and complex than military "kinetic" actions. ((I do love that new terminology.)) As you say: a change in paradigms....something USA still doesn't "get" although our International Corps are offshoring capital to the maximum they can.

13.
If France and Germany who had been at war three times in less than a century could forgive themselves and cooperate, then everything is possible.
Everything is possible whether or not France and Germany wore themselves and the rest of the World out. But is "everything is possible" a pragmatic or real politik way to approach other issues........or any issue at all? Hint: NO. Other issues are closer and dominate in the complex of causation.

14.
But then, your phrase " Israel and the surrounding Arabs" is one of the source of the problems.
I used it borrowing from the threads previous discussion. I thought it had been resolved that Arab meant: those opposed to Israel existing as a state. You do yammer on about an inconsequential "LABEL." I will mark this as a second error on your part. Like a chess game...you only benefit from playing your best game.....not by engaging in jejune tropes.

15.
But that is how conflicts are resolved, outside the use of military forces, it is when both side start to reconsider the situation, to seriously think if there is not a more favorable future than to keep trying to kill each others.
Its only the Arabs that have been trying to kill Israel for the past 72 years. That is my point du jour: maybe Israel ought to really kill off their dedicated opposition JUST LIKE ALL OTHER NATION STATES HAVE DONE. That is not advocacy on my part as much as it is "recognition." What do you do if you are on the street and some ruffian WANTS to have a fight with you? Ha, ha........there is no "recognition of a more favorable future....." With all the contra events and threads included......basically......Israel has tried to get along with its neighbors.........along with massive support in $$ and threatened force by the USA (and contra by Russia/USSR). You don't make peace with a rattlesnake: you kill it.

16.
Then there is the fatalist stance that basically says that if it has not been possible in 70 years, it never will.
HAH!!!!!! You made it. Congrats. Was it all a warmup to that punchline??? Made me laugh. I never said "it never will" I did say it hasn't happened: so try something new?........or.......why not do what EVERY OTHER NATION STATE DOES ALL THE TIME.

17.
Well that is BS.
I agree. Glad I didn't say it. And whatever quote you might identify as being close enough to having said it or greatly implied it......not my intent. Just read EXACTLY what was said. Unless I stripped a gear...I rarely, hopefully never, deal in absolutes, or in your synonym in Fatalism. .........but I could be wrong.

18.
Remember that the French and the Germans started their first great war in 1870 and ended in 1945...75 years, and multi millions of dead!
Do you mean: "Never Forget?" ........ thats my point ENTIRELY.

Puuuuleaseeeeeee: don't respond to each point, if at all? Druthers always allowing for otherwise.

Thanks.......I find the exchange rewarding.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:06 pm

interesting piece on the demise of ISIS
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:22 pm

It is kind of like there isn't really an opposition party. Another piece lamenting Dem fundraising failures - but, IMO, more important, organizational woes and, I'd add, possible turnout problems - because the party and its message fail to energize - the Dems, who may well lose the governorship they now hold in Virginia, really seem to be tottering. A critical loss like one in this Virginia race could help set the GOP well for 2018.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:24 pm

Janet Rubin, conservative columnist, calls for replacement of Gen Kelly to remove the stench of "junta" from the WH.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:22 am

:hmm: But - he can't leave! He's not yet gotten to wear those snazzy, white White Dump uniforms with gold trim and cords yet. He must be craving that.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:29 am

scrmbldggs wrote::hmm: But - he can't leave! He's not yet gotten to wear those snazzy, white White Dump uniforms with gold trim and cords yet. He must be craving that.

http://www.invisiblethemepark.com/2013/ ... istration/

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:40 am

He even had King Elvis! :lol:
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:48 am

scrmbldggs wrote:He even had King Elvis! :lol:

He was one weird bugger..... My wife has always described him as "a psychiatric convention unconvened".

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:37 am

Why am I not reassured when David Petraeus assures us there won't be a nuclear war? Could it be that for decades we haven't needed any reassurance about that and now we do?

So, according to another story at the same site, we don't need to worry—yet! We'll switch to a war footing only if North Korea refuses to give up its nuclear weapons. In other words, only if the Pope remains Catholic.
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Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:41 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote::hmm: But - he can't leave! He's not yet gotten to wear those snazzy, white White Dump uniforms with gold trim and cords yet. He must be craving that.

http://www.invisiblethemepark.com/2013/ ... istration/
Backstory on that. If I remember correctly, Nixon had been impressed by the Swiss Guards at the Vatican and wanted uniforms like them. (Yes, he really was that crazy!)
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:24 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote: We'll switch to a war footing only if North Korea refuses to give up its nuclear weapons. In other words, only if the Pope remains Catholic.
I predict the following will happen before North Korea gives up its nuclear weapons:

1) Hell will no longer need ice.
2) Pigs will fly.
3). Trump will sound like a reasonable, sane human being during an unscripted speech.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
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