It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:44 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Wtf? #MakeAmericaMcCarthyiteAgain

I find this incomprehensible, the same way I find people who call criticizing Israel antisemitic.

All of these types of laws need to be challenged.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:54 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote:My feeling was that things can't get much worse for the Democrats and any shakeup offers a hope of improvement.
Not a one-sided purge on behalf of those who brought you the Clinton campaign - and that rewards Donna Brazile.
Touché!
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:58 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Wtf? #MakeAmericaMcCarthyiteAgain
A friend of mine sent me a story on that this morning, but it was in a source heavily biased against Israel, so I didn't know what might have been left out. To demand political fealty as a condition of disaster relief is simply unconscionable. We'd give aid to North Korea if a natural disaster struck, I'm sure. (Uh, well, let me walk that back a bit. We'd give aid in any normal administration.)
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:37 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Wtf? #MakeAmericaMcCarthyiteAgain
A friend of mine sent me a story on that this morning, but it was in a source heavily biased against Israel, so I didn't know what might have been left out. To demand political fealty as a condition of disaster relief is simply unconscionable. We'd give aid to North Korea if a natural disaster struck, I'm sure. (Uh, well, let me walk that back a bit. We'd give aid in any normal administration.)

I did some very brief research on this. Turns out that these state laws deal with the BDS Movement.

Here is a list of states that have these laws:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ant ... egislation

Here is information about the BDS Movement:

https://bdsmovement.net/

I’m in favor of boycotting Israel to force a two-state solution.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:49 pm

Interesting article on the former presidents and their relationship with Trump:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/20/politics/ ... index.html
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:53 pm

Why take the high road when the low road got you elected?

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/20/politics/ ... index.html
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:05 pm

You know, I don’t like Ryan but this stuff was damn funny.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/20/politics/ ... index.html

Better yet, it’s gonna piss Trump off.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:40 pm

Hey, I didn’t know Darth Keebler was in Oklahoma.

http://m.newsok.com/article/5568422

The good voters in Oklahoma disagree with him, we have a sentencing problem.

BTW, the Oklahoma Legislature, pissed off by Oklahoma voters taking some initiative and thinking for themselves are trying to limit 780 and 781.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:16 pm

“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:19 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:You know, I don’t like Ryan but this stuff was damn funny.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/20/politics/ ... index.html

Better yet, it’s gonna piss Trump off.
And Hillary will laugh also, but she won't smile when doing so. Nice zinger there!
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:22 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Hey, I didn’t know Darth Keebler was in Oklahoma.

http://m.newsok.com/article/5568422

The good voters in Oklahoma disagree with him, we have a sentencing problem.

BTW, the Oklahoma Legislature, pissed off by Oklahoma voters taking some initiative and thinking for themselves are trying to limit 780 and 781.
What a maroon! How can anybody be so pig-ignorant as to think putting people in jail for smoking pot is going to make the country safer? OK, I say, let's put EVERYBODY in jail who has ever smoked pot. Not sure who would be left outside to guard the place, but at least it would be a LOT quieter up on Capitol Hill.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:24 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Interesting article on the former presidents and their relationship with Trump:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/20/politics/ ... index.html
Now that Bush is out from under Cheney's thumb, he's a bit more of a mensch. But I'm still not willing to forget his incompetence in preventing the 9/11 attacks (willful negligence, really), or his mindless acquiescence to what his war-mongering associates wanted.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:31 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Wtf? #MakeAmericaMcCarthyiteAgain
A friend of mine sent me a story on that this morning, but it was in a source heavily biased against Israel, so I didn't know what might have been left out. To demand political fealty as a condition of disaster relief is simply unconscionable. We'd give aid to North Korea if a natural disaster struck, I'm sure. (Uh, well, let me walk that back a bit. We'd give aid in any normal administration.)

I did some very brief research on this. Turns out that these state laws deal with the BDS Movement.

Here is a list of states that have these laws:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ant ... egislation

Here is information about the BDS Movement:

https://bdsmovement.net/

I’m in favor of boycotting Israel to force a two-state solution.
Interesting list of states. Many of them are places where evangelical Christians have a strong presence, that is, people who honestly think they are friends of Israel, but only because they think all the Jews will convert when Jesus returns. As I recall, Martin Luther started out that way, believing that all the Jews would convert if Christians would only treat them well. But the Jews took too much time about it, and then you got his essay, "The Jews and their lies," in which he said the plain truth (of Lutheranism, of course) should be preached to the Jews once, and then they should have a few months to convert (being unable to refute the truth of Lutheranism, of course). If they refused, he said, they should be expelled from the German states. It hasn't been long (only about one generation) since evangelical Christians were noticeably anti-Jewish. I suspect the evangelicals will eventually get tired of waiting for Jesus to come back and convert the Jews; at that point, the evangelicals begin to get nasty about the Jewish refusal to convert. Probably not right on the horizon yet. Netenyahu depends heavily on them and courts them assiduously. They are his best friends at court.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Balmoral95 » Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:01 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Wtf? #MakeAmericaMcCarthyiteAgain
A friend of mine sent me a story on that this morning, but it was in a source heavily biased against Israel, so I didn't know what might have been left out. To demand political fealty as a condition of disaster relief is simply unconscionable. We'd give aid to North Korea if a natural disaster struck, I'm sure. (Uh, well, let me walk that back a bit. We'd give aid in any normal administration.)

I did some very brief research on this. Turns out that these state laws deal with the BDS Movement.

Here is a list of states that have these laws:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ant ... egislation

Here is information about the BDS Movement:

https://bdsmovement.net/

I’m in favor of boycotting Israel to force a two-state solution.
Interesting list of states. Many of them are places where evangelical Christians have a strong presence, that is, people who honestly think they are friends of Israel, but only because they think all the Jews will convert when Jesus returns. As I recall, Martin Luther started out that way, believing that all the Jews would convert if Christians would only treat them well. But the Jews took too much time about it, and then you got his essay, "The Jews and their lies," in which he said the plain truth (of Lutheranism, of course) should be preached to the Jews once, and then they should have a few months to convert (being unable to refute the truth of Lutheranism, of course). If they refused, he said, they should be expelled from the German states. It hasn't been long (only about one generation) since evangelical Christians were noticeably anti-Jewish. I suspect the evangelicals will eventually get tired of waiting for Jesus to come back and convert the Jews; at that point, the evangelicals begin to get nasty about the Jewish refusal to convert. Probably not right on the horizon yet. Netenyahu depends heavily on them and courts them assiduously. They are his best friends at court.
And why not? WW3 breaks out and they're the surviving raptured cockroaches....

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:06 am

. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:11 am

Now Huckchuckle is trying to say that it is not appropriate for the press to "debate" a general about his lies. Military folk, it seems, are above little things like telling the truth, being fair, dignity. The general in this case - lying skank, cheap shot a-hole, undignified shill - is a retired general performing a civilian role. But even so: during the '60s the press, and many of us, spent countless hours debating active duty generals who were lying and/or mistaken about Vietnam. I am glad we did. As for Kelly, pffft, he is a dishonest, vicious Trump flak, {!#%@} 'em, debate him, "go after" him, make fun of him, call him out, press him, expose him, whatever. All appropriate - even called for.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:14 am

35/60 in Gallup tracker (-25); this proceeds swimmingly. Right on target, in fact, "ahead of schedule."
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Balmoral95 » Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:26 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Now Huckchuckle is trying to say that it is not appropriate for the press to "debate" a general about his lies. The general in this case is a retired general performing a civilian role. But even so: during the '60s the press, and many of us, spent countless hours debating active duty generals who were lying and/or mistaken about Vietnam. I am glad we did. As for Kelly, pffft, he is a dishonest, vicious Trump flak, {!#%@} 'em, debate him, "go after" him, make fun of him, call him out, press him, expose him, whatever. All appropriate - even called for.
Her shameless attempt to threaten ("going up against a 4 star Marine general"... I'm sure everyone is shiteing their boots, butch). Which is fine: a stupid cow like her wouldn't.... It outs her further as a fat drone in thrall to power. Her vibrator is probs a replica of the Washington Monument. Fat, fanatically religious and ignorant is no way to go through life.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by ElectricMonk » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:06 am

Kelly is the chief of staff and therefore a legitimate target for criticism; it's irrelevant that he is also military.
It's the same authoritarian sentiment that the Commander in Chief cannot be criticized.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Balmoral95 » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:15 am

ElectricMonk wrote:Kelly is the chief of staff and therefore a legitimate target for criticism; it's irrelevant that he is also military.
It's the same authoritarian sentiment that the Commander in Chief cannot be criticized.
Exactly, and her attempt at wrapping him in a shield of invincibility is a testament to her own idiocy as well as the broader public's.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:28 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote: I did some very brief research on this. Turns out that these state laws deal with the BDS Movement.

Here is a list of states that have these laws:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ant ... egislation

Here is information about the BDS Movement:

https://bdsmovement.net/

I’m in favor of boycotting Israel to force a two-state solution.
It's such a long and difficult story.

In case I was sure that BDS is about a two-state solution, I'd be too in favor. But I'm not. And that's because I've read their own statements:

For example:

- In Their Own Words
http://www.stopbds.com/?page_id=48

- True Origins of BDS
http://contrabds-callmyth.evidencewatch.com/

I can't support calls for euthanasia of the Jewish state.

- The Goal of the Israel Boycott, divest, and sanction (BDS), LA Review of Books, 16/03/2014
https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/goal-boycott#!
The goal of the boycott movement is not peace: it is the elimination of the State of Israel. This is the logical implication of all its arguments. Its supporters refrain from spelling out this endgame in order to avoid scaring off moderates who would reject the eliminationist agenda, but the end of Israeli sovereignty altogether is the clear purpose of the movement. It will fail in this pursuit, and Israel will survive, but the radicalism of the boycott movement is succeeding in poisoning debate on the Middle East.
In my opinion, this is the progressive stand pertaining BDS:

- The Third Narrative, What’s the Problem with BDS? A Progressive Critique
http://goo.gl/Cwu12C

- Why supporters of "two states" should not join the BDS "smash Israel" boycotters - Solidarity, yes! Boycott, no!, Workers' Liberty, 05/08/2007
http://www.workersliberty.org/node/30426

- David Hirsh, Why BDS is antisemitic, 01/06/2016
https://engageonline.wordpress.com/2016 ... vid-hirsh/
According to experts and scholars, the 10 stages of every genocide are
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/t ... ocide.html
XYZ Contagion (‘Because the truth is contagious‘), an investigative/research political and historical website, deals also with the Srebrenica Genocide
https://xyzcontagion.wordpress.com/about/#English

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:30 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Now Huckchuckle is trying to say that it is not appropriate for the press to "debate" a general about his lies. Military folk, it seems, are above little things like telling the truth, being fair, dignity. The general in this case - lying skank, cheap shot a-hole, undignified shill - is a retired general performing a civilian role. But even so: during the '60s the press, and many of us, spent countless hours debating active duty generals who were lying and/or mistaken about Vietnam. I am glad we did. As for Kelly, pffft, he is a dishonest, vicious Trump flak, {!#%@} 'em, debate him, "go after" him, make fun of him, call him out, press him, expose him, whatever. All appropriate - even called for.

Yeah, I was about to post on that. Here's the link. It represents a new low in degradation even for Hickabee. She is truly beneath contempt. When she doesn't have the facts, as here, she simply makes up the story, claiming that Wilson said things not on the video that were mysteriously heard only by Kelly.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:36 am

And the case of the four soldiers dead in Niger gets still curiouser.

But I wonder if Trump even heard about this failed mission. Kelly has been protecting him from things he can't deal with (that is, everything except praise from right-wing media), so perhaps it's Kelly's own fault that the statement didn't get to Trump. Of course, the fact that this was an ISIS raid is rather jarringly at odds with Trump's proud boast that he has now defeated ISIS. That may be another reason for not mentioning it.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:43 am

Balmoral95 wrote:...fanatically religious and ignorant is no way to go through life.
She can't help being fanatically religious. Her father is batshit insane on that subject. The thought of having grown up with him in the house every day should make anyone shudder. And he also came within sight of the Republican nomination.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:57 am

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:
It's such a long and difficult story.

In case I was sure that BDS is about a two-state solution, I'd be too in favor. But I'm not. And that's because I've read their own statements:

For example:

- In Their Own Words
http://www.stopbds.com/?page_id=48

- True Origins of BDS
http://contrabds-callmyth.evidencewatch.com/

I can't support calls for euthanasia of the Jewish state.

- The Goal of the Israel Boycott, divest, and sanction (BDS), LA Review of Books, 16/03/2014
https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/goal-boycott#!
The goal of the boycott movement is not peace: it is the elimination of the State of Israel. This is the logical implication of all its arguments. Its supporters refrain from spelling out this endgame in order to avoid scaring off moderates who would reject the eliminationist agenda, but the end of Israeli sovereignty altogether is the clear purpose of the movement. It will fail in this pursuit, and Israel will survive, but the radicalism of the boycott movement is succeeding in poisoning debate on the Middle East.
So I fear. Colin Powell once came back from the Middle East and said, "They (meaning both sides) really don't want peace." Well, I've seen enough anger on the Palestinian side to believe that.

On the Israeli side, I think there is a genuine desire for peace. But there is also a genuine desire to keep the Palestinians in Israel under strict control. No doubt, the basis of that desire is a simple matter of security. But security is not obtained when Palestinian homes are bulldozed to make way for new settlements on the West Bank. Israel's policies also contribute to the continuing conflict.

In the abstract (and this is a VERY moot point, 70 years on), a country in which one ethnic group has a privileged position is now an anachronism. It didn't seem so in 1947, of course, and there are still plenty of places (such as Bosnia) where attempts are still being made to preserve ethnic privilege, if not to purge outright those who don't have the correct ethnicity. Unfortunately, Israel's very constitution privileges Jews over all others. After the Holocaust, the West saw that something needed to be done to make Jews safe. Unfortunately, with typical British-American arrogance, they decided to do that by imposing a government that the Palestinian Muslims strongly didn't want. They'd have done much better, in my opinion, if they had been willing to take in Jewish immigrants in large numbers. But, as we know, the US wouldn't do that even before the war, and it notoriously sent a shipful of them back to Europe to perish in the camps. I don't actually blame the British and Americans for setting up Israel as a Jewish state, given that the state was to be in the Middle East. How else could a safe place be made there for them? But there was, as I believe, a tragic flaw in the well-intentioned scheme, and it continues to haunt us.

So, there's a huge mess now, created largely by the Americans and British, and frankly, I don't see any solution. If I did, I'd be in Washington trying to get it implemented.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:32 am

ElectricMonk wrote:Kelly is the chief of staff and therefore a legitimate target for criticism; it's irrelevant that he is also military.
It's the same authoritarian sentiment that the Commander in Chief cannot be criticized.
Trump hisself has a long history of "going after" 4-star generals. A fact which Huckchuckle conveniently forgot.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:39 am

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:. . . I’m in favor of boycotting Israel to force a two-state solution.
It's such a long and difficult story.

In case I was sure that BDS is about a two-state solution, I'd be too in favor. But I'm not. . . .
Norman Finkelstein of all people:

[bbvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASIBGSSw4lI[/bbvideo]
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:46 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:And the case of the four soldiers dead in Niger gets still curiouser.

But I wonder if Trump even heard about this failed mission. Kelly has been protecting him from things he can't deal with (that is, everything except praise from right-wing media), so perhaps it's Kelly's own fault that the statement didn't get to Trump. Of course, the fact that this was an ISIS raid is rather jarringly at odds with Trump's proud boast that he has now defeated ISIS. That may be another reason for not mentioning it.
In a side note, as to things that are curiouser and curiouser here, Maddow's segment tying the Niger attack to the travel ban has come under some pretty heavy fire. I missed it, as I am BDSing The Trump Show (and traveling). Anyway, I found this bit on the WH revealing: "Exclusive: Pentagon Document Contradicts Trump’s Gold Star Claims: Email undermines veracity of president’s statement about Gold Star contacts". Who's zooming who?
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:47 am

Upton_O_Goode wrote:So, there's a huge mess now, created largely by the Americans and British, and frankly, I don't see any solution. If I did, I'd be in Washington trying to get it implemented.
Would your name be "Jared"? :)
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:04 pm

"Trump is messing with the wrong woman": POLITICO profile of Rep Frederica Wilson
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Kleon_I XYZ Contagion » Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:06 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:So, there's a huge mess now, created largely by the Americans and British, and frankly, I don't see any solution. If I did, I'd be in Washington trying to get it implemented.
I'm not so sure that in the end it was Britain's and America's mess, what happened in 1947-1948. I used to be, because I grew up too with the narrative 'imperialism planted Israel', but looking closely, I'm not anymore.

For example, Britain didn't vote for Yes for the Partition Plan, and US administration was not that willing to vote for it, either. Both didn't help the Jews with even one single bullet. Both imposed an arms embargo which helped only the Arabs who already had and could obtain tons of weapons from elsewhere. In fact, Britain was fighting along with the Arabs during the invasion of the five Arab armies in 1948, and helped them with instructors and commanders officers, joint air missions etc.
In the US State Department there were the 'Arabists' who didn't want to take decisions unpleasant for the Arab oil-oligarchs. Truman said a 'yes' finally, but perhaps only because had elections in front of him and didn't want to make unhappy his Jewish voters. The US delegation in the UN, I think changed its mind to vote for Yes only after the Soviet Minister's speech, who he claimed the creation of Israel was a follow-up for the Nazi defeat and a kind of antifascist struggle still going on, and the Americans didn't want to lose this anti-nazi glamour.

From what I know now, I believe it was a myth that imperialism planted Israel. In fact, the 600.000 Jews, mostly camps survivors, fought against the British and five well-armed state Arab armies and some not so willing to fight inhabitants (they weren't called 'Palestinians' at the time, in fact they got mad if someone called them that way, it was a name for the Jews, 'we are Arabs, southern Syrians or northern Egyptians' they said, and the name Palestinians along with the new national identity was adopted in the 60s), for an area not bigger than New Jersey. The Arabs already had about 99,8% of the former Ottoman soil for their almost 22 countries, all made by the same pacts as Israel (but nobody questions them), and the then 280 millions population.
And it was so difficult for them to give just a 0,16% of the soil for the jewish survivors? It was, because it was God's land, Allah gave it to the muslims, and the dhimmis couldn't have what was Allah's property, it's all in PLO's and Hamas' Covenants.

After that, I'm not sure either that Israel doesn't want the two-state solution.
I composed once a list.
All these are opportunities for the Palestinians to have their own state. Can anyone count them?
- Balfour Declaration 1917, Churchill White Paper 1922, Passfield White Paper 1930, Hope-Simpson Report 1930, Peel Commission Report 1937, White Paper 1939, Plan for union of Jordan-Arab Palestine (Goldmann, Silver, Shertok, Ben Gurion Plan) 1946, UN Partition Plan 1947, Peace proposals of Count Folke Bernadotte 1948, The Jordan Plan (Jericho Conference) 1948, American trusteeship proposal for Palestine 1948, Call for Armistice Agreements 1949, Lausanne Protocol 1949, Tripartite Agreement 1950, Call for Agreement after Six Days War (Answer: The three NOs) Plan 1967, Allon Plan 1967, Jarring Mission 1967, Rogers Plan (Deep Strike) 1969, King Hussein's federation plan 1972, Camp-David 1978, Fahd Plan 1981, Reagan Plan 1982, Fez Initiative 1982, Israel's Proposals for Self-Governing Authority in the Territories 1982, Madrid Conference 1991, Oslo #1 1993, Protocol on Economic Relations (Paris Protocol) 1994, Gaza Jericho Agreement (Cairo Agreement) 1994, Agreement on Transfer of Powers and Responsibilities 1994, Oslo #2 1995, Washington Summit 1995, Beilin-Abu Mazen Document 1995, Summit of the Peacemakers 1996, Beilin-Eitan 1997, Protocol of Hebron 1997, Wye River Memorandum 1998, Sharm el-Sheikh Memorandum 1999, Camp-David 2000, Sharm el-Sheikh Summit 2000, Clinton Parameters 2001, Taba 2001, Mitchell Report 2001, Tenet Ceasefire Plan 2001, Four Principles 2001, Elon Peace Plan (The Right Road to Peace or Israeli Initiative) 2002, Arab League Peace Initiative (Saudi Initiative) 2002, Zinni Plan 2002, Beirut Summit Plan 2002, Ben-Eliezer Plan 2002, Tenet-Powell-Burns Plan 2002, Ayalon-Nusseibeh Plan (People's Choice) 2002, Isratin (Bi-national state) Plan 2003, Quartet’s Roadmap 2003, Aqaba Summit 2003, Geneva 2003, Lieberman (Populated-Area Exchange) Plan 2004, Sharm el-Sheikh (Egypt) Summit 2005, Unilateral Gaza disengagement 2005, RAND ('The Arc' Plan) 2005, Franco–Italian–Spanish Middle East Peace Plan 2006, Annapolis Conference 2007, Arab League Peace Initiative 2007, Olmert offer for Gaza, East jerusalem and 98,5% of the West Bank 2008, Washington Obama 2010, Israeli Peace Initiative 2011, The Eight Palestinian Emirates (Mordechai Kedar) Plan 2012, John Kerry 2013, Again Obama 2014, EU Initiative 2015, France Initiative 2016, Quartet 2016, Paris Conference 2017, Arab League Peace Initiative 2017 etc
Israelis insist on 'Land for Peace' (as they gave back the 96% of the areas they won in the 1967 war), Palestinians say always 'No'.

- 'Israel’s Quest For Peace'
http://www.stopbds.com/?page_id=64

- 'Over 100 Years of Chronic Arab Rejectionism'
http://www.mythsandfacts.org/Conflict/6 ... ism.htm#A2

There are many aspects that fanatic antizionists don't want to talk about.
Some questions raised here:
http://www.israelhayom.com/2017/10/13/t ... h-complex/

.. and I think there are no answers to these questions, but I think it's better always listening to what the Palestinians say themselves

- Why Can't the Palestinians Recognize the Jewish state?, Institute for Palestine Studies, Journal of Palestine Studies, Vol 40, no. 4 (Summer 2011), p. 78
http://wayback.archive.org/web/20140731 ... =1&iid=160
If Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people, then the lands that it occupies today (and perhaps more, for there are as yet no borders to this 'homeland') belong to this people by way of right. And if these lands rightfully comprise the Jewish homeland, then the Arab presence there becomes historically aberrant and contingent; the Palestinians effectively become historic interlopers and trespassers-a transient presence on someone else’s national soil.
This is not a moot or exaggerated point. It touches on the very core of the conflict and its genesis. Indeed, it is the heart of the Zionist claim to Palestine: Palestine belongs to the Jews and their right to the land is antecedent and superior to that of the Arabs. This is what Zionism is all about, and what justifies both the Jewish return to the land and the dispossession of its Arab inhabitants.
Clearly, this is not the Palestinian Arab narrative, nor can it be. Palestinians do not believe that the historical Jewish presence in and connection to the land entail a superior claim to it. Palestine as our homeland was established in the course of over fifteen hundred years of continuous Arab-Muslim presence; it was only by superior force and colonial machination that we were eventually dispossessed of it. For us to adopt the Zionist narrative would mean that the homes that our forefathers built, the land that they tilled for centuries, and the sanctuaries they built and prayed at were not really ours at all, and that our defense of them was morally flawed and wrongful: we had no right to any of these to begin with.
The demand for the Palestinians to recognize Israel as the homeland of the Jewish people has yet another dimension. It places the moral burden of the conflict on the Palestinians, and consequently, not only exonerates Israel from the dubious moral circumstances of its birth but makes the Palestinians the historical transgressors. Indeed, by refusing to accept the Jewish claim to the land, we are to blame for what has befallen us: had we accepted Israel’s claim during the Mandate years, the entire conflict could have been averted; we should simply have handed the land 'back' to its rightful owners from the time that they began to articulate, at the dawn of the twentieth century, their interest in it as an actual-rather than spiritual-homeland. From this perspective, it is Arab rejection that caused the conflict and not the Zionist transgression against Arab land and rights. This is of course precisely why this Israeli government and its most ardent Zionist supporters want to wrest this recognition from the Palestinians, as it would absolve Israel of its 'original sin' and delegitimize the Palestinians’ version of their own history.
Taking this reasoning to its logical (if extreme) conclusion, recognition would give Israel the right to demand a measure of retributive justice. If the Palestinians caused the conflict, they should pay for their 'sins': the Palestinian refugees should not be compensated for their dispossession, and the Palestinian people as a whole should lose any claim to equality or equivalence in any political settlement premised on supposedly painful or generous Israeli concessions.


This is an academic article. Anyone can see, they don't want, cannot do, and never will recognize that Jews are a people. What two-state solution when they say 'you don't exist'?

Anyway, it's a long, big, difficult case, with so many aspects, and, well-said, we can't resolve it in an internet forum.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:33 pm

thanks for those posts and the links, Kleon . . .
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by gorgeous » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:47 pm

Wilson is a fraud......... Florida Dem Who Criticized Trump for Disrespecting Soldier's Widow ...



https://townhall.com/.../florida-dem-cr ... rks-to-wid...


2 days ago - Congresswoman Frederica Wilson has repeatedly voted against bills that help veterans and their families, according to VoteSmart.org. ----------------------------Florida Democrat Wilson no friend of veterans, vote record shows | Fox ...


http://www.foxnews.com/.../florida-demo ... d-shows.ht...
2 days ago - Dem who slammed Trump voted against measures to help vets. VoteSmart.org sheds light on Rep. Frederica Wilson's voting record on the ...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by gorgeous » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:49 pm

"Her shameless attempt to threaten ("going up against a 4 star Marine general"... I'm sure everyone is shiteing their boots, butch). Which is fine: a stupid cow like her wouldn't.... It outs her further as a fat drone in thrall to power. Her vibrator is probs a replica of the Washington Monument. Fat, fanatically religious and ignorant is no way to go through life."-------------balmoral has no morals and is racist and sexist.....can't talk about a woman without abusing her appearance and with vulgarity??
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by gorgeous » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:56 pm

Rep. Frederica S. Wilson (D) - Florida's 24th District



members-of-congress.insidegov.com/l/157/Frederica-S-Wilson


Representative Wilson has an estimated net worth of $1.56M as of 2014, making her slightly wealthier than the average member of Congress and seventh ... ----------------------how did she become a millionaire as a 'public servant"?.....lots of kickbacks....
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:10 pm

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote:So, there's a huge mess now, created largely by the Americans and British, and frankly, I don't see any solution. If I did, I'd be in Washington trying to get it implemented.
I'm not so sure that in the end it was Britain's and America's mess, what happened in 1947-1948. I used to be, because I grew up too with the narrative 'imperialism planted Israel', but looking closely, I'm not anymore.

For example, Britain didn't vote for Yes for the Partition Plan, and US administration was not that willing to vote for it, either. Both didn't help the Jews with even one single bullet. Both imposed an arms embargo which helped only the Arabs who already had and could obtain tons of weapons from elsewhere. In fact, Britain was fighting along with the Arabs during the invasion of the five Arab armies in 1948, and helped them with instructors and commanders officers, joint air missions etc.

In the US State Department there were the 'Arabists' who didn't want to take decisions unpleasant for the Arab oil-oligarchs. Truman said a 'yes' finally, but perhaps only because had elections in front of him and didn't want to make unhappy his Jewish voters. The US delegation in the UN, I think changed its mind to vote for Yes only after the Soviet Minister's speech, who he claimed the creation of Israel was a follow-up for the Nazi defeat and a kind of antifascist struggle still going on, and the Americans didn't want to lose this anti-nazi glamour.

From what I know now, I believe it was a myth that imperialism planted Israel. In fact, the 600.000 Jews, mostly camps survivors, fought against the British, for an area not bigger than New Jersey. The Arabs already had about 99,8% of the former Ottoman soil for their almost 22 countries, all made by the same pacts as Israel (but nobody questions them), and the then 280 millions population.

And it was so difficult for them to give just a 0,16% of the soil for the jewish survivors?
I yield to your superior knowledge of the history of the founding of Israel. In my view, the legitimacy of the present government there is based on the UN declaration. If I remember correctly, this was a vote of the General Assembly, not the Security Council. Although, given that Russia was in favor of the founding, I can't see why the Security Council would have refused to implement it. In any case, 70 years of this government establishes it; there is no going back. That is no doubt a bitter pill for the Palestinians, but it's the only basis for moving forward. The Palestinians MUST recognize the current government of Israel as legitimate.

But I disagree with the last sentence that I quoted above. You say "The Arabs already had..." There is no such thing as "The Arabs..." They are a diverse bunch of Sunnis, Shias, Wahabis (whose corrupt Saudi regime is overdue for overthrowing, but which the United States continues to arm to the teeth), Sabeans, Kurds, Coptic Christians, and others. As for Israel being "only 0.16%" of the soil, my house is only 0.00001% of the land area in my state. I wouldn't consider that a good reason for giving it to someone else. There WERE other people living on that land.

But, in the end, I agree with you. We'll not solve this problem here. The best we can do is insist on accuracy and fairness in argument. You are yourself a good example of that.
Last edited by Upton_O_Goode on Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:15 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:"Trump is messing with the wrong woman": POLITICO profile of Rep Frederica Wilson
She must be channeling Bella Abzug!
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:20 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote:So, there's a huge mess now, created largely by the Americans and British, and frankly, I don't see any solution. If I did, I'd be in Washington trying to get it implemented.
Would your name be "Jared"? :)
Hee hee! Who else would be crazy enough to think he could succeed where the likes of Jimmy Carter, John Kerry, Colin Powell, and other experienced politicians and diplomats couldn't get anything but a temporary cease-fire? Well, his father-in-law is apparently crazy enough to believe that's possible.

Which brings me to another point I've been meaning to post about. I wrote a conciliatory note to my Trump-supporting friends after the election, saying that I would regard the Trump Administration as a test case for Andrew Jackson's belief that no particular experience was needed to be a public official, that the duties were plain enough for anyone to do. I no longer think it will be such a test case. If the President had been of normal intelligence and sanity and common sense, it would have been, but....
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:30 pm

. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:34 pm

And now we're up to Version 2. We keep getting beta versions of the truth from Trump and his minions. Are they ever going to have a market-ready version?

At least, Lindsay Graham has rebutted Hickabee's position on this. He has moments of clarity when his head pops out of the muck. But he soon submerges again.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)