Trump will win!

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed May 15, 2019 2:47 pm

. . . which is tempered for today by some good news:

Trump Tower Is Now One of NYC’s Least-Desirable Luxury Buildings - Most condo owners who sold since 2016 have recorded a loss - ‘No one wants in that building,’ says one former owner

Trump’s prized Doral resort is in steep decline, according to company documents, showing his business problems are mounting:
The reason, she said: “There is some negative connotation that is associated with the brand.”
LOL

In the case of the Doral, the Trump Crime Family explains the poor performance by pointing to the effects of Zika and hurricanes, which miraculously targeted the Doral but not competing properties in the area.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: Trump will whine!

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed May 15, 2019 2:52 pm

Clearly the hand of Gog. :oldman:
.
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Re: Trump will win!

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed May 15, 2019 5:54 pm

I have a plan for that . . . opioid crisis
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed May 15, 2019 6:03 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:54 pm
I have a plan for that . . . opioid crisis
I still can’t believe she isn’t doing better. It really is a shame.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed May 15, 2019 6:04 pm

"I have a plan for that" is a great slogan for Warren - and maybe Yang, but no one else.
It nicely contrasts with Trump, who is proud to never have a plan.

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed May 15, 2019 6:27 pm

What I am curious about is how and why two Saudi oil tankers found their way to the Gulf of Tonkin.
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Re: Trump will win!

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed May 15, 2019 6:31 pm

Too damn bad:
https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2019/05/ ... a-tariffs/

Sit there quietly and cradle your Bible, your guns and your flag with your MAGA hat (Made in China!!!!). They are the only things that matter for you.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed May 15, 2019 6:32 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:04 pm
"I have a plan for that" is a great slogan for Warren - and maybe Yang, but no one else.
It nicely contrasts with Trump, who is proud to never have a plan.
But I thought only he could fix it...
Or is that {!#%@} it up even worse than it already is? I get confused.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed May 15, 2019 7:22 pm

Fine:
https://www.axios.com/quinnipiac-univer ... ntent=1100

I’m not fond of him and prefer Warren but I’ll vote for him if he gets through the primary.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed May 15, 2019 8:29 pm

. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed May 15, 2019 8:31 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:22 pm
Fine:
https://www.axios.com/quinnipiac-univer ... ntent=1100

I’m not fond of him and prefer Warren but I’ll vote for him if he gets through the primary.
As Trump said during the campaign, "My trade policy will be so {!#%@} up that I am going to tax a lot of you to pay off some of my core voters who will become pissed at winning so much."
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed May 15, 2019 8:51 pm

So true....on so many issues. With a defined blast, the collateral damage could take out a few surrounding states as well.

The abortion case "should go" like this: ruled unconstitutional at the trial and appeal courts and not reviewed by the Supremes. If not: the fix is working.
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Re: Trump will win!

Post by TJrandom » Wed May 15, 2019 9:02 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:31 pm
Too damn bad:
https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2019/05/ ... a-tariffs/

Sit there quietly and cradle your Bible, your guns and your flag with your MAGA hat (Made in China!!!!). They are the only things that matter for you.
Let them eat cake tofu...

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed May 15, 2019 9:30 pm

I know this isn’t the norm:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 679623002/

The sad thing is these smug bastards with their hearty grins and need to plant women in their place don’t give a damn about women and their fears. They piously stand there and babble about doing God’s work and saving babies when the truth is they don’t give a {!#%@} about women and babies. They only want to run this country the way that they see it, not the reality of what it is.

If they truly cared about children they wouldn’t do something like this. They would work towards getting women the help they need to make healthier, timelier choices. They would work towards making healthcare available and affordable, closing the wage gap and providing good education for children. But that’s not what they want. They want to score political points with women’s bodies. And the people of Alabama, Georgia, Ohio, etc. continue to vote them in.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed May 15, 2019 10:50 pm

Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed May 15, 2019 11:41 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 9:02 pm
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:31 pm
Too damn bad:
https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2019/05/ ... a-tariffs/

Sit there quietly and cradle your Bible, your guns and your flag with your MAGA hat (Made in China!!!!). They are the only things that matter for you.
Let them eat cake tofu...
Or soybeans as they're about to end up armpit deep in them....

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu May 16, 2019 2:30 am

I like this criticism of Democratic reactions to Mueller's report:
. . . If the report were, as the Republicans insist, an exoneration, one might demand to know how this unwarranted investigation got started in the first place, which is exactly how the GOP has proceeded to turn the conversation.

And if you thought the report was merely inconclusive, your natural reaction would be that you need to know more. You would say something like what many House Democrats are repeating endlessly: “We need to see the redactions” and “hear from witnesses” — suggesting that there is as of yet no sufficient basis for judging President Trump’s conduct.

The more I review the report, the more absurd and misleading the we-need-to-know-more response seems to be. And the more it seems to have contributed to public misunderstanding. How different would it have been if a unified chorus of Democratic leaders in Congress and on the campaign trail had promptly proclaimed the actual truth: This report makes the unquestionable case that the president regularly and audaciously violated his oath and committed the most serious high crimes and misdemeanors.

Mueller’s extraordinary 2,800-subpoena, 500-search-warrant, two-year investigation fully established not merely crimes but also the betrayal of the president’s office: a failure to defend the country’s electoral system from foreign attack and acts of interference with justice that shred the rule of law. Congress doesn’t need to read more to announce what is obvious from what it should have read already. . . .

My concern is that the House’s focus on process — such as requesting redacted material — constitutes a strong, implicit suggestion that what we have seen from Mueller is not enough to assess the president. That is just false. The report lays out in detail specific acts of obstruction by the president, as well as the extensive evidence that backs up those claims. More than 900 former federal prosecutors (including Republicans and Democrats) have publicly declared that, if anyone else had committed those same acts, they would be under indictment.

What will we say in the event the remaining 7 percent of text adds little or nothing to the overwhelming case of presidential wrongdoing already made out by the report? By not having begun impeachment proceedings or taken other strong action, Democrats may have conceded the debate over the Mueller report’s conclusion. Democrats are fighting on process grounds where the White House has some plausible arguments and where winning may add little or nothing to what we already know.

The burden, the House should assert, is now clearly on the president to show (if he can) where the report is inaccurate and why it is not the basis for severe condemnation and sanction of the president. . . .
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu May 16, 2019 4:22 am

I don't like the report.
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 2:30 am
The burden, the House should assert, is now clearly on the president to show (if he can) where the report is inaccurate and why it is not the basis for severe condemnation and sanction of the president. . . .
[/quote]
The first 90% emphasizes how GUILTY Trump is of not only "high crimes and misdemeanors" but also criminal statutes the violation of which is a threat to National Security and got him elected in the first place. The conclusion calling for condemnation and sanction is just not supported. What is called for is impeachment and removal from office followed by criminal prosecution. That is a "sanction"....but in context it reasonably something less than is demonstrated.

...............when right and wrong, justice and criminality, ...........become just a procedural game. I do blame Congress.
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Re: Trump will whine!

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu May 16, 2019 7:39 am

...and to those who still wait to hear to hear from Mr Mueller personally, pack a lunch. Rick Gates' tenure was extended for his continued assistance in an ongoing investigation (to at least Aug 30). Probably led by Mueller - as an employee of the DOJ?
.
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Re: Trump will whine!

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu May 16, 2019 8:04 am

However, investigating Trump and ilk is harassment, investigating his/their opponents is proper and should be law of the land... :roll:
.
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Re: Trump will whine!

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu May 16, 2019 9:19 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 8:04 am
.... investigating his/their opponents is proper .....
I think this is called "presidential harassment."
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Re: Trump will win!

Post by TJrandom » Thu May 16, 2019 9:28 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 11:41 pm
TJrandom wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 9:02 pm
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:31 pm
Too damn bad:
https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2019/05/ ... a-tariffs/

Sit there quietly and cradle your Bible, your guns and your flag with your MAGA hat (Made in China!!!!). They are the only things that matter for you.
Let them eat cake tofu...
Or soybeans as they're about to end up armpit deep in them....
Hey, that's what I said... ;)

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu May 16, 2019 11:56 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 9:30 pm
I know this isn’t the norm:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 679623002/

The sad thing is these smug bastards with their hearty grins and need to plant women in their place don’t give a damn about women and their fears. They piously stand there and babble about doing God’s work and saving babies when the truth is they don’t give a {!#%@} about women and babies. They only want to run this country the way that they see it, not the reality of what it is.

If they truly cared about children they wouldn’t do something like this. They would work towards getting women the help they need to make healthier, timelier choices. They would work towards making healthcare available and affordable, closing the wage gap and providing good education for children. But that’s not what they want. They want to score political points with women’s bodies. And the people of Alabama, Georgia, Ohio, etc. continue to vote them in.
Militant moderate (and partisan of Jeff_36's WWC strategy) Cheri Bustos seizes the moment and leads the Democratic campaign committee back to the 1950s, despite her rhetoric about Alabama:
Key Democrat to help Lipinski—despite primary threat: U.S. Rep. Cheri Bustos, a fellow Illinoisan and head of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, is slated to star at a fundraiser for the Southwest Side congressman.
(see also: DCCC Chair To Help Anti-Abortion Dem Fundraise Amid Severe Abortion Law) - protecting a right-wing incumbent is the most precious thing, apparently
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu May 16, 2019 12:03 pm

former Bush speechwriter David Frum issues a 3/4 mea culpa and calls BS on Trump's Iran moves: Take It From an Iraq War Supporter—War With Iran Would Be a Disaster: It would mean repeating a mistake, only on a much bigger scale: without allies, without justification, and without any plan at all.: ". . . in 2019, the U.S. is the international scofflaw."

WaPo reports that Trump is irritated with Bolton and Pompeo (why would anyone be surprised by their antics?) for getting out ahead of themselves on Iran; Frum's piece shows the incoherence of Trump's own Iran policy and his responsibility, much as he tries deflecting to his "best people" staff, for the current mess.
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Re: Trump will win!

Post by Balmoral95 » Thu May 16, 2019 1:32 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:03 pm
former Bush speechwriter David Frum issues a 3/4 mea culpa and calls BS on Trump's Iran moves: Take It From an Iraq War Supporter—War With Iran Would Be a Disaster: It would mean repeating a mistake, only on a much bigger scale: without allies, without justification, and without any plan at all.: ". . . in 2019, the U.S. is the international scofflaw."

WaPo reports that Trump is irritated with Bolton and Pompeo (why would anyone be surprised by their antics?) for getting out ahead of themselves on Iran; Frum's piece shows the incoherence of Trump's own Iran policy and his responsibility, much as he tries deflecting to his "best people" staff, for the current mess.
I had to ask myself how does one make a job of being a speechwriter for a moron.... and all was revealed reading this piece... Jesus wept.

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu May 16, 2019 1:42 pm

A Trump supporter told me he was gonna pray for my soul this morning.
I don’t have one so it’s a waste of time.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu May 16, 2019 1:58 pm

. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu May 16, 2019 2:31 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 11:56 am
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 9:30 pm
I know this isn’t the norm:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 679623002/

The sad thing is these smug bastards with their hearty grins and need to plant women in their place don’t give a damn about women and their fears. They piously stand there and babble about doing God’s work and saving babies when the truth is they don’t give a {!#%@} about women and babies. They only want to run this country the way that they see it, not the reality of what it is.

If they truly cared about children they wouldn’t do something like this. They would work towards getting women the help they need to make healthier, timelier choices. They would work towards making healthcare available and affordable, closing the wage gap and providing good education for children. But that’s not what they want. They want to score political points with women’s bodies. And the people of Alabama, Georgia, Ohio, etc. continue to vote them in.
Militant moderate (and partisan of Jeff_36's WWC strategy) Cheri Bustos seizes the moment and leads the Democratic campaign committee back to the 1950s, despite her rhetoric about Alabama:
Key Democrat to help Lipinski—despite primary threat: U.S. Rep. Cheri Bustos, a fellow Illinoisan and head of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, is slated to star at a fundraiser for the Southwest Side congressman.
(see also: DCCC Chair To Help Anti-Abortion Dem Fundraise Amid Severe Abortion Law) - protecting a right-wing incumbent is the most precious thing, apparently
Kinda got me thinking so I looked into it a little more.

This issue has become much more partisan over the years. At one time there were a block of Republicans who were pro-choice but as the religious right gripped the Republican Party in a stranglehold that’s changed. It’s the same for the Democratic Party, more Democrats used to be pro-life but as the party became more progressive and oriented towards women’s rights (including the increasing number of Democratic women in politics) this shifted.

Good article on this:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fivethirty ... -seem/amp/
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu May 16, 2019 2:36 pm

How many electoral votes was Biden going to win?

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/th ... should-be/
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu May 16, 2019 2:38 pm

Two thoughts:
1) evangelicals & their big issue
2) evangelicals, as the 538 piece says, are far right on a host of issues and well at home in the GOP (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... 035b77f067: "Exit polls conducted during the vote that year reinforce how important white evangelical Protestant voters were to Trump’s election. About a quarter of voters that year identified as evangelical, and Trump won 80 percent of their votes. In other words, about a fifth of all votes were cast by evangelicals for Trump.")
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu May 16, 2019 7:11 pm

Get’em while they are hot:
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu May 16, 2019 7:15 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 11:56 am
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 9:30 pm
I know this isn’t the norm:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 679623002/

The sad thing is these smug bastards with their hearty grins and need to plant women in their place don’t give a damn about women and their fears. They piously stand there and babble about doing God’s work and saving babies when the truth is they don’t give a {!#%@} about women and babies. They only want to run this country the way that they see it, not the reality of what it is.

If they truly cared about children they wouldn’t do something like this. They would work towards getting women the help they need to make healthier, timelier choices. They would work towards making healthcare available and affordable, closing the wage gap and providing good education for children. But that’s not what they want. They want to score political points with women’s bodies. And the people of Alabama, Georgia, Ohio, etc. continue to vote them in.
Militant moderate (and partisan of Jeff_36's WWC strategy) Cheri Bustos seizes the moment and leads the Democratic campaign committee back to the 1950s, despite her rhetoric about Alabama:
Key Democrat to help Lipinski—despite primary threat: U.S. Rep. Cheri Bustos, a fellow Illinoisan and head of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, is slated to star at a fundraiser for the Southwest Side congressman.
(see also: DCCC Chair To Help Anti-Abortion Dem Fundraise Amid Severe Abortion Law) - protecting a right-wing incumbent is the most precious thing, apparently
This is old news but still relevant. Apparently if you are a Republican Congressman it’s OK.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu May 16, 2019 7:29 pm

Trump's new immigration plan requires immigrants to learn English. Where I grew up, in central Pennsyltucky, something close enough to English is spoken that the residents should be ok.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu May 16, 2019 7:32 pm

Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by TJrandom » Thu May 16, 2019 9:24 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 7:29 pm
Trump's new immigration plan requires immigrants to learn English. Where I grew up, in central Pennsyltucky, something close enough to English is spoken that the residents should be ok.
Whoopie... maybe I can still get by with Engrish... :roll:

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu May 16, 2019 9:36 pm

Well...irony is a bitch.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by landrew » Thu May 16, 2019 9:42 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:36 pm
Well...irony is a bitch.
Irony + karma = poetic justice.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by TJrandom » Thu May 16, 2019 11:49 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:28 am
Balmoral95 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 11:41 pm
TJrandom wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 9:02 pm
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:31 pm
Too damn bad:
https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2019/05/ ... a-tariffs/

Sit there quietly and cradle your Bible, your guns and your flag with your MAGA hat (Made in China!!!!). They are the only things that matter for you.
Let them eat cake tofu...
Or soybeans as they're about to end up armpit deep in them....
Hey, that's what I said... ;)
And now they can eat pork too... since China cancelled orders. But surely this will hurt China too since they are experiencing a swine flu epidemic.

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri May 17, 2019 12:01 am

Somewhere I asked roughly: "If tariffs hurt the country imposing them, why would China impose tariffs in response to Trump doing so?" ///////Got no answers but one occurred to me this morning:

I bet my one remaining ball, yes I lost one in a previous bet, that after saying that the Tariff would be paid by China and statements otherwise were fake news, I HAVE NO DOUBT AT ALL.......that the additional revenue from the American taxpayer will flow into the USA Treasurery that Trump will use to declare success on all his job growth ideas and that we need to REWARD the JOB CREATORS with another HOOGE TAX BREAK FOR THE ALREADY TOO RICH.

Tell me that doesn't make sense!

........and that lead to realizing that every other corrupt lying head of an organized crime family would do the same. Raise taxes on your own people..........and blame the other guy. Hand out hats and flags.

Done deal.
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Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

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Re: Trump will win!

Post by psychiatry is a scam » Fri May 17, 2019 12:02 am

lots of attacks on trump , sure they are justified - but
wonder if anyone has mentioned this angle ?

the movie THE CAINE MUTINY - he is the captain of the ship - are you helping ?
his wife should watch this movie