The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by NathanC » Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:13 pm

And now they are pinkos right down to Chancellor Merkel's underwear.
No, Mr. Smith. Despite having extremely good social security programs, Germany - the fourth largest economy in the world with high living standards, and not in any way "Cucked" - is the beating heart of capitalism in all of Europe, like it always been since the 1900s. That's why the European Central Bank is in Frankfurt. For example, despite Merkel leading the EU's efforts to (rightfully) sanction Russia over its annexation of Crimea and its war against Ukraine, some German businesses - true capitalists - continue to make backdoor deals with Russian companies. They're even allowing the construction of a Russian oil pipeline. Not really different from how German businesses got around the Iran Sanctions and other US led sanctions in the past to do business. Some of them even managed to sell the raw materials for Saddam's nerve gas, which he would later fire on Tel Aviv for propaganda purposes. Some "Pinkos" they are.

See, what Mr. Smith (intentionally) doesn't get is that his whining about "Denazification" is a joke, as best exemplified by his ignorance about calling Germans "Pinkos". As anyone who knows anything knows, despite their willingness to use Nazi slave labor, German Companies and businessmen were never tried. Indeed, US Businesses actually lobbied the government NOT to try German Businesses for their use of slave labor, and so did the UK. It was the same reason Shacht was acquitted in the Nuremberg Trials that Mr. Smith, unlike his more honest opponents like Roberto Muehlenkamp or the late Walter Kaschner, never studied. There was a little thing going on called "The Cold War", and it all started at the IMT that Mr. Smith never studied. The US, the UK and France, were concerned that the Soviets would use Schacht's conviction as a propaganda victory, since he was the former finance head and therefore a capitalist, so they did everything they could not to have him convicted, so he was acquitted. The same principle extended to all German Businesses involved in slave labor. Some even pointed out that these individuals laid the foundation for what would later become the EU.

StatMech and the others are right. Mr. Smith does need help; he's gotten worse with age. Soon he'll be no better than his pal Berg.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by NathanC » Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:17 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Forcibly denazification = comprehensive defeat of a criminal and anti-democratic aggressor, as I read what Mr Smith tried saying.
Wait till he sees the truth. Then again, he's had the chance to see it since he was interacting with Roberto Muehlenkamp for a long time, but consistently refused to. It'll still be there though whether he accepts it or not.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:04 pm

Scott Smith wrote:LOL X 2

I lost patience with Scott’s rambling but Berg’s rant does make visiting entertaining.


I tried to make the point for Fritz
Good luck with that. Berg’s a stubborn old Nazi.

The Institute for Historical Review even sells Baumbach's book on the front page of their website.
Well, I do try and shop at IHR but I find Amazon much more extensive in their selection.

Well, for some things that is.
:mrgreen:
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Scott Smith » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:03 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote: LOL X 2

I lost patience with Scott’s rambling but Berg’s rant does make visiting entertaining.
I tried to make the point for Fritz
Good luck with that. Berg’s a stubborn old Nazi.
I'm still working on mastering it. :lol:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
The Institute for Historical Review even sells Baumbach's book on the front page of their website.
Well, I do try and shop at IHR but I find Amazon much more extensive in their selection.

Well, for some things that is. :mrgreen:
Yeah, I would have mentioned Amazon instead, but the IHR reference only reinforces my original point that this is Revisionist-friendly fare, since the IHR actually sells the book. But I actually forgot to cite this book when it was relevant in the original RODOH discussion. :cry:

I checked the price on Amazon and the book is a few bucks cheaper than from the IHR, and the shipping is included if you have a Prime membership too, whereas the IHR postage was something like an additional four bucks or whatever.

I don't really like Liberal centi-billionaire Jeff Bezos--and I despise his Washington Post propaganda ministry--but I have to admit that Amazon is a very slick way to find and buy books. It sucks that Amazon started banning Revisionist books recently. I predict a rope and a lamppost in Comrade Bezos' future.

:D
Last edited by Scott Smith on Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:05 pm

I predict jail in yours, tough guy.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:45 pm

Scott Smith wrote:

I checked the price on Amazon and the book is a few bucks cheaper than from the IHR, and the shipping is included if you have a Prime membership too,whereas the IHR postage was something like an additional four bucks or whatever.
Well, see, there you go.

I don’t buy from IHR. Anything they sell that I want I get elsewhere (not that I can think of anything that I would want). The Holocaust Handbook series is free on the web if I ever get a hankering to read those again. That should happen approximately the same time Hell freezes over or Donald Trump says something intelligent.
I don't really like Liberal centi-billionaire Jeff Bezos
Considering he owns damn near everything (well, it’s split between him, Disney and Wal-Mart) I will go out on a limb and say he doesn’t care.
but I have to admit that Amazon is a very slick way to find and buy books.
Yes it is.
It sucks that Amazon started banning Revisionist books recently.
Nobody’s required to carry anything suckey, Scott. I read the “Bad War,” it’s no one’s loss. Besides anyone who wants such a thing can find it.
I predict a rope and a lamppost in Comrade Bezos' future.

:D
Couple of things Scott:

1) You and Charles need to get over that whole “Day of the Rope” fantasy/daydream. I read the mess that is “The Turner Diaries” and frankly it was suckier than “The Bad War.”

2) Pyrro takes a very dim view of things he considers threats or racist. Tread lightly, think like a normal person and that should help you navigate.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Scott Smith » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:06 pm

NathanC wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Forcibly denazification = comprehensive defeat of a criminal and anti-democratic aggressor, as I read what Mr Smith tried saying.
Wait till he sees the truth. Then again, he's had the chance to see it since he was interacting with Roberto Muehlenkamp for a long time, but consistently refused to. It'll still be there though whether he accepts it or not.
I know plenty about the War Crimes Trials charade.

The fact is that the Communists won and they are still winning today. Most academic institutions now are full of outright Commies and Pinkos. Jews are a big part of this--or at least tell me that they are not behind the massive Third World immigration invasion in the USA and Europe. Globalists are trying to "modify" Western Civilization to their liking into some new kind of Multikulti sewer. Jews will be a big part of that 1 percent ruling class.

Churchill understood how this works and outlined it in his famous 1920 essay in the Illustrated Sunday Herald. Google his "Zionism vs. Bolshevism: a struggle for the soul of the Jewish people" if you've never read it. However, I think it would be a HUGE MISTAKE here to forget that Communism is now only a SUBSET of Capitalism. We can probably thank Hitler's struggle for that (and no I am not talking about nonexistent homicidal gas-chambers here).

So "Pressure from Above and Pressure from Below," as the John Birchers described it long ago. Read the late Georgetown Prof. Carroll Quigley's Tragedy and Hope (1966). Quigley was optimistic about "Monopoly Capitalism" and believed that it would enable postwar Progressive reforms; however the history is a bit outdated now. Prof. Quigley is credited as influencing Neoliberal scumbag Bill Clinton, for example.

The Alt-Right calls this dual pincer movement from both Capitalists and Communists the "Kosher Sandwich" and they make a good point. In any case, the creepy, unwashed Left running loose in Western countries are merely the Lumpenproletariat controlled by Monopoly-Capital and helping to push the Globalist agenda.They are basically usefull idiots working for the Establishment now, as are the "owned elite" in general, and both the Neoliberals and the Neoconservatives are part of it, for sure.

Regarding Russia, I am not a Russophobe by any means, especially now that the Soviet Union is no more. I have always been known as a Germanophile, although I despise the German "Bundestablishment" currently ruling the Reich and their cowardly Thoughtcrimes laws. It is no surprise that Germany is basically "pwn3d" by the Russian oligarchy these days too, on account of German dependence upon natural gas. Gee, thanks Comrade Merkel.

If Merkel and company were not Globalist weasels, they would have modernized rather than scrapped German nuclear power. Alternative energy is very nice but it won't do for the short term. A chain is only as strong as its weakest links and the UK and Deutschland are both in trouble. NATO has basically outlived its usefulness unless this were to change.

Sorry for the off-topic.

:)
Last edited by Scott Smith on Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:37 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Scott Smith » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:17 pm

"Day of the Rope" is a meme. Nobody is serious about that but it triggers some "Soybois" which I find amusing. I never say that about participants on forums in any case, and it is not meant to be personal in that regard.

We have let the Left control what is "Hate" and given that some kind of abstract power--which Orwell would have called Thoughtcrime. I would like to point out that dissent and criticism is a part of political discourse but the Left always wants it both ways. Like the Antifa and radical environmentalists, they are convinced that their own poop doesn't stink.

Anyway, if we can make a relevant historical comparison, "Hanging in Effigy" is a long American tradition. Pres. Andy Jackson, for example, was hanged-in-effigy many, many times. Others like the Establishment media "Globohomogayplex" meme-it with Pres. Trump all the time and think nothing of it. They do own the corporate media and are trying to censor the Internet, but they are not so smart as they think they are.

Btw, for what it's worth, I read the The Turner Diaries back in the 1980s--long before Tim McVeigh became news--and I was NOT too impressed, nor with William Pierce to be honest. Tim McVeigh was just an idiot. I also don't bother with the Daily Stormer website and I am not an Andrew Anglin fan either. I'm pretty much an open book and I do use my real name. I pretty much call it like I see it.

:)

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Scott Smith » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:46 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
[quote=""Scott"]

I predict a rope and a lamppost in Comrade Bezos' future.
I predict jail in yours, tough guy.

[/quote]

Of course I meant with full due-process and Populist consent. :mrgreen:

Bezos bans books that his creepy, crawly friends at the ADL and SPLC don't like so he gets no pass from me on that.

:)

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by NathanC » Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:21 am

I know plenty about the War Crimes Trials charade.
No, you don't, Mr. Smith. That's why you avoided my fact based observation about Schacht. You and Robert Countess also lied repeatedly in the Auschwitz Scholar's debate in 2004, when you repeatedly and falsely insisted that "The West German trials were forced to Follow the Nuremberg trials". You also lied when you implied that "Political" Judges hid evidence for made up reasons. Neither of those false statements were true, as Roberto Muehlenkamp correctly explains.

Anyone who wants to see the depths of Smith's delusions is invited to read Roberto Muehlenkamp's still valid article here. Or this thread. None of the fact and evidence based information supports Smith's delusions. Quite the opposite, they offend him so much that he and his late buddy Countess had to lie about them.

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=22874&p=631669&hil ... ki#p631669

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by NathanC » Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:23 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
I don't really like Liberal centi-billionaire Jeff Bezos
Considering he owns damn near everything (well, it’s split between him, Disney and Wal-Mart) I will go out on a limb and say he doesn’t care.
I predict a rope and a lamppost in Comrade Bezos' future.

:D
Couple of things Scott:

1) You and Charles need to get over that whole “Day of the Rope” fantasy/daydream. I read the mess that is “The Turner Diaries” and frankly it was suckier than “The Bad War.”

2) Pyrro takes a very dim view of things he considers threats or racist. Tread lightly, think like a normal person and that should help you navigate.
I don't like Bezos' business practices, but it's clear that Smith's "dislike" of Bezos is based on envy of his wealth. Bad Business practices aside, Bezos got rich because of a great idea, whereas Smith is a bitter old man haunted by delusions that have gotten the better of him.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:28 am

NathanC wrote:
I know plenty about the War Crimes Trials charade.
No, you don't, Mr. Smith. That's why you avoided my fact based observation about Schacht. You and Robert Countess also lied repeatedly in the Auschwitz Scholar's debate in 2004, when you repeatedly and falsely insisted that "The West German trials were forced to Follow the Nuremberg trials". You also lied when you implied that "Political" Judges hid evidence for made up reasons. Neither of those false statements were true, as Roberto Muehlenkamp correctly explains.

Anyone who wants to see the depths of Smith's delusions is invited to read Roberto Muehlenkamp's still valid article here. Or this thread. None of the fact and evidence based information supports Smith's delusions. Quite the opposite, they offend him so much that he and his late buddy Countess had to lie about them.

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=22874&p=631669&hil ... ki#p631669
Nothing's changed with him in 20 years... even the garbage his acolytes bring over here everyday is very tired tripe from long, long ago.... I'm wondering wtf he's even doing here.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by NathanC » Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:38 am

He probably saw that people got tired of his ranting and delusions, so instead of stopping and taking a look at his life and his choices, he decided to look for more people to preach to.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Scott Smith » Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:29 am

I've always liked you guys and I know that you have missed me.

:?

No, as I said, my problem with Bezos is:

1) his flagship, the fake-news Washington Post Commie rag, and

2) his Amazon censorship of Revisionist and selective Right-leaning books.

Who gets to decide what is meant by "Hate" ? That is a very important question.

I don't necessarily have a problem with billionaires, or rich people, although they probably should be taxed more. And I would get rid of tax-free foundation status--where, e.g., philanthropies, churches, and various interest-groups collect donations free of taxes. Bill Gates and Warren Buffet send big checks to each other's "causes," and this is how millionaires and billionaires skip on taxes that Joe Paycheck pays right off the top of his income.

Generally speaking, tax-free status CORRUPTS the political process and it puts certain "religious groups" onto a public or societal footing that might not be deserved. You might see homeless people and junkies on every other street corner, but you can also find that on every street in America there is inevitably a house of "Churchiantity," and part of this is because they are not required to pay income and property taxes so they are indirectly subsidized by the public. At least Christians believe in the separation of Church and State; if this were mosques, then we would really be in trouble.

:shock:

Regarding billionaires again, I don't think you can get a Presidential candidate any more who is not a billionaire and who is not corrupted by the financial system itself. This is because you cannot participate in politics anymore without your hand in the public trough, and you become instantly beholden to campaign financing--these donors, of which, do not have to be voters or citizens, just "interests" and conglomerations of corporate or establishment cabals herding their "voting cattle" to the polls, as H.L. Mencken put it.

I liked billionaire Ross Perot in the 1992 election and he would not have gotten anywhere in Establishment politics without fronting a lot of his own money for the effort. However, I did not vote for Perot because I knew that as a third-party candidate he could not win. He got 17 percent of the popular vote but not a single Electoral Vote, and only the later counts.

btw, I actually voted for Bill Clinton in 1992 and that was a huge mistake that I quickly regretted. One of the selling points for me was Hillary's commitment to reform the U.S. healthcare system--but that effort did not last long after winning the election. It is still a problem today, only much worse. I am lucky because I had good insurance or I would be dead for sure--but the system is unbelievably byzantine (a topic for some other day's discussion, I know).

Although Trump is not perfect by any means, he scares the bejeezus out of the Deep State and the Leftist corporate media shills, and whatever slimy fellow-travellers--and that I find very satisfying--although I do hope that he can actually get something done on the core issues like immigration reform and demographically securing the borders.

What is remarkable about Trump is that by unashamedly appealing to a White populist base he was able to gain control of the GOP Presidential primary in 2016 and wrest it away from the Globalization and Interventionism cabal. "America First" is a dog-whistle for anti-Semitism we are told. For a long time the GOP has been the party of lower corporate taxes and of "controlled opposition," but now that the Democratic Party has finally lost the White working class (for good) there is a chance to make some real changes.

The Democratic Party strategy is to make the USA into a Third World country demographically. A similar strategy is going on in other Western countries as well. If they say that all politics is local, then Arizona at least finally lost that RINO weasel Sen. John McCain, and we will lose that Chamber-of-Commerce Libertard weasel Sen. Jeff Flake too, so we are trying to do our part. Trump ain't perfect but if Neoconservative Hillary had been elected in 2016 we would be fighting in Syria by now--and probably Iran soon.

Sorry about the off-topic. The subject of bombing in the Good War is not going anywhere, so I hope nobody minds too much.

:D
Last edited by Scott Smith on Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by NathanC » Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:45 am

Yep. The Good Olde Reverend just wants people to preach his nonsense to.

And it looks like the Reverend would rather make things up to cover for his envy of Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates’ wealth than face criticism for his lies.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:03 am

NathanC wrote:Yep. The Good Olde Reverend just wants people to preach his nonsense to.

And it looks like the Reverend would rather make things up to cover for his envy of Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates’ wealth than face criticism for his lies.
Doesn't follow... here's not a receptive audience.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:08 am

Don't forget Ren and Stimpy...
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:21 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Don't forget Laurel and Hardy...
Sure, but they were at rodoh and we're told it's nirvana for the fair dissemination and debate of a multiplicity of viewpoints, so warum?

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:42 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Don't forget Laurel and Hardy...
Sure, but they were at rodoh and we're told it's nirvana for the fair dissemination and debate of a multiplicity of viewpoints, so warum?
Oh, if those two guys stayed there, did we get Beavis and Butt-Head recently?
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:48 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Don't forget Laurel and Hardy...
Sure, but they were at rodoh and we're told it's nirvana for the fair dissemination and debate of a multiplicity of viewpoints, so warum?
Oh, if those two guys stayed there, did we get Beavis and Butt-Head recently?
You'll have to ask Jeff.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Scott Smith » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:51 am

C'mon, you guys can make actual arguments. You can do it and I believe in you. Btw, Revisionists have analyzed Schacht and the IMT many times, so I am not sure what revelation we think that we have for us here.

:)

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:38 am

Scott Smith wrote:C'mon, you guys can make actual arguments. You can do it and I believe in you. Btw, Revisionists have analyzed Schacht and the IMT many times, so I am not sure what revelation we think that we have for us here.

:)
Herr Feldwebel, it's game over long ago... We're not going to re-litigate all this old stuff from years ago. You want that, move on. And yes, sadly, as well as stupidly and against better advice, a certain forum member may have given you the false impression that migrating here would be just dandy in order to foment "debate". He was wrong.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by NathanC » Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:46 am

Btw, Revisionists have analyzed Schacht and the IMT many times
Image

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Scott Smith » Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:49 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
C'mon, you guys can make actual arguments. You can do it and I believe in you. Btw, Revisionists have analyzed Schacht and the IMT many times, so I am not sure what revelation we think that we have for us here.

:)
Herr Feldwebel, it's game over long ago... We're not going to re-litigate all this old stuff from years ago. You want that, move on. And yes, sadly, as well as stupidly and against better advice, a certain forum member may have given you the false impression that migrating here would be just dandy in order to foment "debate". He was wrong.
No problem, Herr Major. And I concede that we are way off-topic for this thread.

:)

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:04 am

Scott Smith wrote:I know plenty about the War Crimes Trials ...
No, you don't. You have a few pet, knee-jerk misunderstandings you've been parading as critical thinking for a couple decades. Congrats.
Scott Smith wrote:The fact is that the Communists won and they are still winning today.
You lost even yourself at this point. If this had been true, wouldn't it be ironic: the deranged little corporal and would be prophet ends up launching a world war, the result of which is the Bolshevization of the earth, or at least Europe, and thus the victory of the world enemy, and the annihilation of the true Germans in Europe!
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:11 am

Scott Smith wrote:I've always liked you guys and I know that you have missed me.
Wrong on two counts in a short sentence.
Scott Smith wrote:1) his flagship, the fake-news Washington Post Commie rag,
My, what a broad, incomprehensible definition of "Commie" you've come to. In the right-wing, racist mind, "those who differ with me - and believe me, I respect free speech - are all Commies."
Scott Smith wrote:2) his Amazon censorship of Revisionist and selective Right-leaning books.

Who gets to decide what is meant by "Hate" ?
A business owner gets to decide what to sell. Unfortunately, in the US, we encourage monopolies.
Scott Smith wrote:btw, I actually voted for Bill Clinton in 1992 and that was a huge mistake that I quickly regretted
Brilliant LOL For the record, I didn't. I voted Red.
Scott Smith wrote:The Democratic Party strategy is to make the USA into a Third World country demographically.
Saying "a Third World demographically country" is basically a stupid way to be racist.
Scott Smith wrote:Sorry about the off-topic. The subject of bombing in the Good War is not going anywhere, so I hope nobody minds too much.
I do. This thread had the virtue of remaining focused. I'll be back with Kellner's reflections on the air war to try to restore sanity.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:15 am

Scott Smith wrote:C'mon, you guys can make actual arguments. You can do it and I believe in you. Btw, Revisionists have analyzed Schacht and the IMT many times, so I am not sure what revelation we think that we have for us here.
Sadly, we've dealt with their "analysis" many times in this forum. It's garbage. And often not even based on accurate recounting of the underlying facts of the proceeding, such as mixing up charges with convictions or how judicial notice worked. Of course, those posting here relied on geniuses like Mark Weber to create their idiotic arguments.

And, no, a Rodoh III here is not a good idea, and seeing it, it looks as tired and boring as one would expect.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by VFX » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:11 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
And, no, a Rodoh III here is not a good idea, and seeing it, it looks as tired and boring as one would expect.
Not as tired as boring as you. As expected :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:21 am

VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
And, no, a Rodoh III here is not a good idea, and seeing it, it looks as tired and boring as one would expect.
Not as tired as boring as you. As expected :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Part of your campaign for decorum? Like these:

All fat no beef. That pretty much describes you.

That is fine maybe to cater for you we can organize a squatting contest...

Illustrating only your undeveloped sense of humor and that don't know Texan . . .

Or these:

Nah but you can join in if you want and make it a threesome. I won't tell.

I am not interested in your bladder problems either, nor anal retention... have a nice day.. talk soon.

Pro tip: lose the excessive use of the smilies as comments on your own lack of wit, they really make you look ridiculous.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:40 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
And, no, a Rodoh III here is not a good idea, and seeing it, it looks as tired and boring as one would expect.
Not as tired as boring as you. As expected :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Part of your campaign for decorum? Like these:

All fat no beef. That pretty much describes you.

That is fine maybe to cater for you we can organize a squatting contest...

Illustrating only your undeveloped sense of humor and that don't know Texan . . .

Or these:

Nah but you can join in if you want and make it a threesome. I won't tell.

I am not interested in your bladder problems either, nor anal retention... have a nice day.. talk soon.

Pro tip: lose the excessive use of the smilies as comments on your own lack of wit, they really make you look ridiculous.
And let's not forget these gems of... litteracy.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by VFX » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:46 am

scrmbldggs wrote: And let's not forget these gems of... litteracy.
You have no gems of existence being yolk and albumin.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:41 am

VFX wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote: And let's not forget these gems of... litteracy.
You have no gems of existence being yolk and albumin.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:51 am

Of course I do
005-01.PNG



you should know that Eigelb has more Eiweiß than Eiklar...
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Balmoral95 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:00 am

Goebbels had a few interesting comments on the bombing... Big readers can look those up.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:03 am

Ah, this reminds me, I owe Jeff_36 some comments on the air war, from Kellner. I've lost my notes, damn it, and really and truly should be flying today, ahem, airline cooperating, so maybe next week . . . : the short version is that whilst Kellner early in the war wondered why the Allies were so reluctant to bomb Germany. He seemed to welcome the bombing, as warranted and as a means of defeating the Nazis, when it started. By the time of the heavy bombing, which he witnessed and didn’t perceive as terroristic, Kellner had come to doubt its efficacy.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by VFX » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:03 am

Scott Smith wrote:
:)
Beam me up Scotty.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by montgomery » Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:55 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
VFX wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote: And let's not forget these gems of... litteracy.
You have no gems of existence being yolk and albumin.
Just too funny! :lol:

Yes, we all have moments of weakness when we stoop to their level. Eggs and balmoral get what they deserve for trying to completely destroy this section of the forum.

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:40 pm

One of the issues we tossed around in this thread was the intentional terror bombing of civilians. I took, and take, the view that this sort of bombing is immoral (and a war crime), will almost inevitably backfire in terms of how it affects morale, and is wasteful in terms of opportunity cost (a better use of resources being the bombing of military targets and war-related critical infrastructure).

Jeff_36 took the opposite view on each of these points (Jeff_36, please correct me if I misunderstood – in any event, you will see that this post is not an effort to debate the opposite view to mine) – not least in that Kellner expresses views which, IMO, research has shown to be mistaken. This is going to be long . . . so I won’t comment every time Kellner expressed a pov which we’ve discussed in the thread and some of us (mostly balsamo and me) have taken a contrary view . . . Anyway, in Kellner’s diary we can follow in real time, as it were, one German considering key themes we’ve wrestled with in this thread, let’s go”

Friedrich Kellner (background here) addressed the topics of the air war in general and the Allied bombing campaign against Germany in particular. As a left-wing German living in the Third Reich, Kellner had personal opinions about the bombing, which were informed by his political views, and offered observations about the effects of the bombing on German civilians, almost all of whom were supportive of the regime and the war. Also, based on his extensive newspaper clippings, Kellner quoted from and analyzed, bitterly, German media accounts of and explanations about the air war.

As early as October 1939 Kellner was wondering about the Allies and “the kind of warfare they are waging,” saying that pussyfooting around (my word) “will not impress the part of German society that suffers from pride and arrogance” and advocating instead “a much more brutal procedure, similar to what the German populace welcomed and cheered against Poland” (p 47). This theme of “bringing the war home” (to use a Vietnam era slogan from the US) recurs throughout Kellner’s diary; he connects it directly to Allied bombing: for example, in his entry on 20 May 1940, lamenting France’s poor war preparations, Kellner wrote that the countries fighting Germany “need to be able to launch overwhelming attacks with bomber aircraft on Germany,” a missing component of the France and English efforts (p 72).

By September 1940 Kellner introduced another theme he would come back to over and over again, writing about hypocrisy in the Reich’s propaganda treatment of the air war: “When English pilots fly to Berlin, it is piracy. When German pilots bomb London, it is heroism.” (p 84) A later example of Kellner’s focus on the Reich’s double standards comes from June 1941, when Kellner observed that
A considerable number of civilians in Great Britain were killed by German air attacks last month. . . . If Germany were to suffer a similar amount of victims [over 5,000 dead], a strong, loud howling would break out in the German press.
Kellner added his view that
Germany started all this with its bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam, and no one had the slightest compassion for the defenseless civilians of those cities. On the contrary, the reports enthusiastically lauded the capability of our ‘glorious’ Luftwaffe.
Kellner felt certain that “[r]etribution will come” but that most Germans “simply do not or will not believe that today or tomorrow the enemy will ultimately return our blows, turning our own method against us once he has a sufficient number of his own long-distance bombers.” (p 119)

On 1 May 1941 Kellner expressed the belief that the British air attacks had at last “definitively and grievously disrupted the production we had in peacetime” in a number of German cities. With Germany unable to attack US and Canadian shipyards, Kellner took the view that strikes on German industrial centers “will be a daily increasing factor in conducting the war.” Two days later, however, Kellner sought to think through the further effects of the early bombing:
When we bombed the English cities this past year, almost every German believed that the attacks would soften up the English and victory would be much sooner in coming.
However, Kellner noted, German propaganda overemphasized the destruction caused by the German campaign. Further, he believed,
Before the war, airplane attacks were a thing born of a fearful imagination. Just by itself, the word “bomb” could evoke fear or horror. I now assert a bomb is not such a dangerous thing. It can cause terrible damage, but the earth has many places left where no bomb attacks, or many attacks, occurred.
Reviewing the effects of English bombing on German targets, some of which Kellner visited after the attacks, Kellner held the opinion that recovery from the destruction was fairly quick and, whilst “[a] toll may have been taken on our war machine, . . . the English were not able to stop us from anything.” In fact, the war continued to expand, and “[a]ttacks by English planes have been without effect so far. . . . If the English continue in the same way, I will advise them to save fuel.” On 12 May Kellner would note his skepticism of German air defenses while registering heavier damage and “considerable” “loss of civilian dead and wounded” in the bombing of Hamburg. Even so, of these early raids Kellner wrote, “I do not have the childish belief these attacks were designed as terror actions against civilians. The intention is to stop production, whether it is at the workplace or the worker’s living quarters,” which to my ear is a bit of an odd formulation. “If our opponents succeed in disrupting important production,” Kellner continued, “there is no doubt about the outcome of this war.” (pp 109-111)

By April 1942 Kellner felt that the English and US air forces would being shortly to carry out intense bombing of Germany: “What we inflicted on others will be given back to us. Retributive justice . . .” (p 170) In June, again decrying the hypocrisy of the Reich leaders and doubting that the English were engaging in terror bombing – Kellner called the Reich’s propaganda “the apex of insolence and ridiculousness” – Kellner reiterated his view that the Allied bombing was a deserved punishment for the Reich’s conduct of war:
the German people . . . have to feel on their own bodies what they did to other people in their arrogant enthusiasm. Germans! Remember Poland, Holland, France, Yugoslavia, England, and Russia! The German pilots wreaked havoc in these countries. Who laid waste [in] Russia and Rotterdam? Who destroyed London and made ashes out of it? (Or so our newspapers reported.) Who wanted to eradicate the English cities? Was that not the Führer Hitler?
(p 180) Kellner expanded on these feelings about the air war in August when he learned of the effects of the English attacks on Mainz that month:
At least the worry about relatives is over [with news from relatives in the city]. . . . t must have been a horrible night. It is really sad to have loved ones suffer. But those who were happy about the air raids on England cannot be punished brutally enough. The German people have to feel firsthand what war means. Until now they could wreak havoc and bring death and destruction to foreign countries with impunity.

There will be a cruel reckoning, but this fate is earned. . . . The punishment has to be implacable and effective.
(p 191)

By September 1942, however, a worrying note began to disrupt Kellner’s reflections on judgment/punishment and righteous vengeance. And Kellner for the first time suspected that the bombings might be terroristic in aim. His developing view of the conduct of the air war shows that, under the bombs, Kellner was unimpressed with Bomber Command and Arthur Harris’ strategic understanding. Considering what he’d learned about the British raids on Mainz, Cologne, and Karlsruhe, Kellner pointedly asked,
do [the English] seeks to break the population’s resistance? If my assumption is correct, then I have to feel sorry for anyone who has such a notion in his head. Destroying the houses in Mainz will not shake up the front or the war machine in any way. . . .

If they want to paralyze Hitler’s war machine they have to make powerful and concentrated attacks against key objectives. From the beginning I never thought much of scattered attacks. . . . How would it have been if during the past three years every attack had been on the Ruhr valley? In such a case would the Ruhr still be able to supply Italy with coal? . . .

After making a tour of Mainz, where he witnessed widespread devastation from the bombing, Kellner a few days later added,
Without doubt the destruction is great, but this will not influence the war. . . . If the entire city of Mainz were turned into a heap of rubble the war would calmly continue.

The companies that manufacture war material remain untouched, for instance the Opel works in Russelsheim-am-Main. And the regional traffic installations were not bombed. With our enemies conducting such warfare, this war can only become a permanent thing.

(pp 200-201)

On the two-year anniversary of the launching of Barabarossa, Kellner considered Goebbels’ accusations that the Allies were, in Goebbels’ words, “conducting a brutal air terror for no reason other than to terrify a defenseless civilian population as a way of forcing them to betray their nation.” Kellner, implicitly acknowledging that the Allied air war targeted civilians, thought that
Dr. Goebbels’ speech might have had a certain effect upon the world if Germany had not used its own air force so ruthlessly. What were Germany’s intentions in 1940 when the air force made repeated heavy attacks on England?
According to Kellner,
When the German air force conducted heavy attacks against England in 1940, the High Command must have expected a certain effect. It will have to be found out in some future confession whether they sought to destroy industry or to ruin the English people’s nerves to make them desirous of peace.
That said, Kellner once again doubted that “England’s air offensive . . . are exclusively to weaken the Germany people. They have a plan to disturb and paralyze the total war machine.” Even so, wrote Kellner in a critical vein, “The bombing of city centers could lead . . . to the supposition their goal is mostly to target people. But the war industry, in the first place, is comprised of people. . . . But it is hard to believe the [official] assertion that no decline in production has occurred. . . . We can do nothing but let the drama play out.” (pp 251-253)

In July 1943 Kellner once again wrote, this time more bitterly, about heavy civilian casualties under Allied bombing, this time ridiculing the empty promises and boasts made by Göring in 1939 that not “a single enemy bomb” would fall on German industrial areas.
”We will eradicate their cities,” screamed Adolf Hitler. He meant England. There are cities that have been “eradicated” – but they are, in fact, in Germany.
(pp 258-259) Nonetheless, impatient that the war ground on, in September Kellner, without grasping the Allied strategic bombing goals or the tensions within their air strategy, was lamenting the weak military effort of the Allies in Italy and elsewhere and describing Germany’s enemies as “lightweights”: “our opponents are so feeble in their air war. The moment their attacks begin to have effects (Hamburg, for example).” . . . What is the opponent thinking? . . . Lay it on! More courage, gentlemen!” (pp 282)

Of the November 1943 Allied bombing raids on Berlin, Kellner recalled “the enormous enthusiasm prevailing throughout the population for the continuous air raids against England” during 1940: “I never heard anything from [fellow Germans] about ‘terrorist raids.’” But “[c]onditions have fundamentally changed,” and under enemy bombs – “paying us back with interest for what we did to” the enemy – Germans up and down were playing the victim card.
If you really thought differently, you would not have sent your planes against Poland, Norway, Holland, Belgium, France, etc. Besides, is not “Total War” yet another of your own inventions? So why this pitiful pretense?
(pp 292-293)

Judging the course of the war and balance of forces, Kellner in January 1944 would write that the Allies were able to carry out air attacks beyond Germany’s expectations, defense capabilities, and claims. The Allies’ had enough planes and had factored into their equations their losses in aircraft. Reading between the lines in the Nazi-controlled media, Kellner concluded that recent Allied bombing was hitting “strategically important facilities.” (p 310) In March, Kellner was writing that “The English attack us at night and the Americans in the daytime” to strike “mainly industrial towns with aircraft factories” and “damage aircraft production and at the same time decimate Germany’s air defense”: “There is a method in that,” Kellner assured himself, speculating that the air war would have weakened German air defenses in the face of the inevitable Allied landing in Europe. Also, “[t]he Nazis call out, ‘protect your children from the bombing terror.’ They should have carefully considered that in 1939. Terror bombing is stopped only by peace.” (p 324) By this time, Kellner seems to have accepted that the Allied strategic conception included terror bombing of civilians.

Last, in April 1944 Kellner wrote sourly about the whole air war in the context of the commemoration, led by Jakub Sprenger, Reich Commissar of Defense District XII and the Gau of Hesse-Nassau, of victims of the bombing in Frankfurt-am-Main. Kellner excoriated the hypocrisy of “Regional Leader” Sprenger who
has forgotten what the entire German press wrote in 1940 about our bomb attacks on England. There were no limits to the satisfaction. The desire and goal was [sic] to have “London in rubble and ashes.” It failed not because of any considerations of humanity but the lack of enough military ability. What rejoicing would have broken out in the Sports Palace in Berlin with the announcement: “London has disappeared from earth”? . . .

Only those who condemned in principle the use of the air force are justified to raise their voice against the bombing war! . . . Who boasted no one could catch up to the German Luftwaffe’s great head start? Was that not Air Marshal Göring?

It badly suits these men to pour forth tears because the enemy surpassed us and uses air raids the way we did or the way we wanted to do – if only we could have. Germany is not going to awaken the compassion of mankind. The actions of our own pilots prevent that. . . .
(p 331)
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by montgomery » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:10 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:One of the issues we tossed around in this thread was the intentional terror bombing of civilians. I took, and take, the view that this sort of bombing is immoral (and a war crime), will almost inevitably backfire in terms of how it affects morale, and is wasteful in terms of opportunity cost (a better use of resources being the bombing of military targets and war-related critical infrastructure).
I've quoted your first paragraph in which you stated your position. But I read your entire post and am left wondering what point you are trying to make. The only point I can see being made is that you are capable of quoting paragraphs of opinion on the topic.

You made the point that civilian bombing is immoral. The opposite POV has been made thousands of times, both by the victim of the civilian bombing and the side that has done the bombing. Those two P's OV usually differ, depending on whose civilians have been bombed.

What other point are you trying to make? I'll continue to read both sides of this discussion to see if there is another point to be made?

I do however find it necessary to correct in part that which I quoted above. It doesn't inevitable backfire. In the instance of the Vietnam war it had little to nothing to do with the failing of US morale. Morale was lost because of American casualties and little concern was ever shown for the Vietnamese people who died in the hundreds of thousands under US bombs. (millions?)

And now back to the discussion? Is anybody going to raise any issues over what you said?

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:26 pm

@Jeff_36, I should have appended this question: given the arguments you've made about the air war and both its efficacy and morality, what do you make of the observations and reflections of Kellner, a German civilian affected by the bombings? I think that Kellner's diary, even as he started out welcoming the air war and despite the issues we can take with some of his observations, gives a very different picture to the one you painted in the debates in this thread.
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