The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:24 am

Holy moly! :shock: :shock:
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:47 am

LOL
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Balsamo » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:58 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Fritz Berg and the bombing of Dresden:

https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 43#p121543
The gem in that thread is this mess:

https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?p=121551#p121551
In the sense that the Allies solved Dresden well known parking problem ?

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:00 am

LOL X 2

I lost patience with Scott’s rambling but Berg’s rant does make visiting entertaining.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:03 am

As I've been laid up a bit, my wife and I have been watching the documentary series World War II in Colour on Netflix. I will just say that Jeff_36 would not like the episode on the bombing war.

It's a weird documentary, with a voiceover but no interviews with historians, etc. The footage is amazing - but colorized, sometimes inexpertly. There are many judgment calls with which one (me, for example) might disagree, but, as a general history of the war on video in 13 parts, it is worth watching, the images are over the top.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:00 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:As I've been laid up a bit, my wife and I have been watching the documentary series World War II in Colour on Netflix. I will just say that Jeff_36 would not like the episode on the bombing war.

It's a weird documentary, with a voiceover but no interviews with historians, etc. The footage is amazing - but colorized, sometimes inexpertly. There are many judgment calls with which one (me, for example) might disagree, but, as a general history of the war on video in 13 parts, it is worth watching, the images are over the top.

I watched that one a couple of years ago on the Military Channel (now AHC). I agree, worth watching if you have some time.

I have a book on hold called “Fire and Fury: the Allied Bombing Campaign, 1942-1945.” I’m due to get it in May, I’ll add to this thread.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:57 pm

relevant here, I think, is Citino's judgment - Citino sees the Battle of the Bulge as a good example of the role of the air power of the western Allies in Germany's defeat in the war: "The Battle of the Bulge demonstrated, one more time, just 'how the Allies won' the war against the Wehrmacht. Tactical airpower - not numbers of men and tanks, or logistical and economic dominance - was the decisive weapon for the Anglo-Americans." Citino, The Wehrmacht's Last Stand, p 413
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:16 pm

On 23 August 1942 the Luftwaffe carried out a "calling card" raid on Stalingrad using 600 bombers - "the massive use of incendiaries started fires that could be seen forty miles away, gutted immense portions of the city, and inflicted a huge death toll." (Citino, Death of the Wehrmacht, p 248) Citino explicitly compares this bombing to Dresden and argues, relying on Hayward, that earlier death toll estimates for the Stalingrad incendiary attack must be revised downward to 25,000 (p 367). Thousands of more civilians were killed in a similar raid on Stalingrad on 3 September (p 249).
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:54 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:On 23 August 1942 the Luftwaffe carried out a "calling card" raid on Stalingrad using 600 bombers - "the massive use of incendiaries started fires that could be seen forty miles away, gutted immense portions of the city, and inflicted a huge death toll." (Citino, Death of the Wehrmacht, p 248) Citino explicitly compares this bombing to Dresden and argues, relying on Hayward, that earlier death toll estimates for the Stalingrad incendiary attack must be revised downward to 25,000 (p 367). Thousands of more civilians were killed in a similar raid on Stalingrad on 3 September (p 249).

We started talking about this here:

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=28568&hilit=Stalingrad

Balsamo made some good points regarding the weaknesses of the Luftwaffe for strategic bombing, it’s possible the numbers were much lower than the 25,000.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:56 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:On 23 August 1942 the Luftwaffe carried out a "calling card" raid on Stalingrad using 600 bombers - "the massive use of incendiaries started fires that could be seen forty miles away, gutted immense portions of the city, and inflicted a huge death toll." (Citino, Death of the Wehrmacht, p 248) Citino explicitly compares this bombing to Dresden and argues, relying on Hayward, that earlier death toll estimates for the Stalingrad incendiary attack must be revised downward to 25,000 (p 367). Thousands of more civilians were killed in a similar raid on Stalingrad on 3 September (p 249).

We started talking about this here:

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=28568&hilit=Stalingrad

Balsamo made some good points regarding the weaknesses of the Luftwaffe for strategic bombing, it’s possible the numbers were much lower than the 25,000.
Thanks, I blanked on that thread, you covered this a lot better there - I dunno on the data, just that Citino says that original estimates were closer to 50,000 and that Hayward's recent work makes a reasonable case for 25,000
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:00 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:On 23 August 1942 the Luftwaffe carried out a "calling card" raid on Stalingrad using 600 bombers - "the massive use of incendiaries started fires that could be seen forty miles away, gutted immense portions of the city, and inflicted a huge death toll." (Citino, Death of the Wehrmacht, p 248) Citino explicitly compares this bombing to Dresden and argues, relying on Hayward, that earlier death toll estimates for the Stalingrad incendiary attack must be revised downward to 25,000 (p 367). Thousands of more civilians were killed in a similar raid on Stalingrad on 3 September (p 249).

We started talking about this here:

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=28568&hilit=Stalingrad

Balsamo made some good points regarding the weaknesses of the Luftwaffe for strategic bombing, it’s possible the numbers were much lower than the 25,000.
Thanks, I blanked on that thread, you covered this a lot better there - I dunno on the data, just that Citino says that original estimates were closer to 50,000 and that Hayward's recent work makes a reasonable case for 25,000

Going from memory (a spotty proposition at best), I think Beevor said 40,000. I’d have to get it again to see, it was a loan from the library.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:24 pm

That's the figure that Citino dismisses as "much too high."
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:25 pm

darn good memory, dude!
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:27 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:darn good memory, dude!

The sad thing is there are days when I wander into a room and then can’t remember why I went in there.

:mrgreen:
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:27 pm

LOL
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:33 pm

Atkinson summarizes the Allies' strategic air campaign in volume 3 of his Liberation Trilogy (pp 353-360): he doesn't cite Overy but his conclusions are similar to Overy's, maybe more negative about US capabilities and claims.

Atkinson observes that US bombing was so inaccurate that its results were much like Harris' in destroying residential urban areas and killing civilians. He "credits" the US with developing especially horrific incendiaries, e.g., the M-76 Block Burner. OTOH in Atkinson's estimation the US, given the inherent lack of precision of its bombing, had less effect than the British - its bombs lacking the punch of the British bombs, its planes dropping significantly fewer tons of explosives, and its bombs having high defect rates.

As for Harris, Atkinson describes his terror bombing and so-called de-housing campaign as "wanting both militarily and morally." He quotes an Allied intelligence report assessing that there were "no grounds for supposing that the effects of area bombing on civilian morale would contribute to Germany's collapse." Atkinson quotes Harris in 1947 recognizing that his strategy, "to break the enemy's morale" by means of the "bombing of German industrial cities" (Atkinson calls the missions "terror raids"), was "totally unsound."

Atkinson deems the effects of the bombing campaign on German morale and petroleum production to be significant - but not decisive. Atkinson's tally is 131 German cities bombed in the bombing war and 400,000 civilians killed - with 7 million made homeless.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:24 pm

Weigley, in Eisenhower's Lieutenants, gives some important background on the American component of the strategic air campaign.

He attributes the thinking behind the American approach in large part to Carl Spaatz, who by 1944 was commander of US Strategic Air Forces (USSTAF) in Europe. Before this Spaatz had been key to developing US air doctrine and had long argued for a strategic conception relying on daytime precision bombing of the enemy's "vital targets," focusing on economic sources of enemy military strength and in particular electricity, petroleum, and transportation. As we know, this conception differed to that of the British, which emphasized, in Weigley's words, "indiscriminate bombing of cities at night." For Spaatz, air power could help destroy the enemy's military capacity by attacking and destroying "the very source of the armed forces' power: the economy that sustained them, and in the German instance, the petroleum that moved tanks and assault guns, the panzers and panzer grenadiers."

Despite the continued growth of the German economy under Allied aerial assault, Spaatz believed that a sustained air war against key economic targets could succeed. During 1943, he argued, the Allied strategic bombing campaign was diverted, e.g., to the Mediterranean, and unfocused (e.g., night-time attacks "aimed more at German morale than at critical economic targets favored by the Americans").

For Overlord (the Normandy operation), in a paper from March 1944 entitled "Plan for the Completion of the Combined Bomber Offensive," Spaatz prioritized the air war as follows: 1) fuel (German synthetic oil plants, oil refineries in Romania and elsewhere in southern and central Europe), 2) German air force, 3) rubber and tire production of the Axis, and 4) as to France proper in direct support of the invasion, "bridge-busting" by aerial bombardment.

Spaatz's proposal would not, however, be accepted by the Allies. Rather, a plan, developed by Leigh-Mallory, the British commander of the Allied Expeditionary Air Force, won approval. This plan focused on destruction of enemy railway marshaling yards and rail hubs. Spaatz objected on two grounds: first, the rail system was so vast, and so small a portion of it needed by the military, that the chance of success was remote; second, the targeting would cause unacceptably high civilian casualties. The British War Cabinet, concerned now about civilian casualties, on moral as well as political grounds, was reluctant to accept Leigh-Mallory's plan. Bomber Harris also opposed the plan. Bomber Command wanted to be excepted from whatever plan was chosen in order to continue with its preferred "strategic area bombing" campaign. In the end, needing an air strategy that would offer quick results in blunting Germany's response to the forthcoming Normandy invasion, Eisenhower threw in with Leigh-Mallory's plan, arguing that Spaatz's petroleum plan would not achieve results quickly enough.

In the end, the Overlord air strategy had its main focus on rail marshaling years and rail hubs. Elements of Spaatz's plan - air superiority, including destruction of the Luftwaffe - were added to Leigh-Mallory's plan. And it was decided to pursue the petroleum strategy as soon as Overlord permitted.

The British War Cabinet agreed to a compromise - maximum 10,000 civilian deaths in the rail center bombing campaign. Eisenhower, who had referred to the concern for civilian causalities as "details of a few targets," continued to back the Leigh-Mallory plan. The number of civilian casualties, according to Weigley, would be fewer than feared and "probably came close to Churchill's maximum tolerable figure." Still, Weigley judges that the campaign failed to meet the traditional "test of compensation and proportionality." Post-bombing surveys showed that the chief impact of the bombings was, as Spaatz had feared, to reduce civilian rail traffic, of little concern to the German occupier, rather than to seriously impair German military use of the rail system. Montgomery's army assessed the bombing, from a military standpoint, as "pin-pricking." SHAEF concluded on the eve of D-Day that the German military still possessed rail capacity in excess of its needs despite the bombing. Post-war Allied evaluations would reach similar conclusions. (OTOH, undertaken on the initiative of the US 9th Air Force, a bridge-busting campaign added into the mix was very successful, as the Americans developed new methods for taking out bridges and as a result German movement of troops and materiel was significantly hampered.)

Weigley, Eisenhower's Lieutenants, pp 56-64
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:21 pm

This Weigley book, which I am reading very slowly for a variety of reasons, one of which is that I am consulting 3-4 maps for each battle plus googling photos of the fighting, is just excellent. On the air war, Weigley takes a position very critical of Bomber Command and Harris, arguing that their focus not only did not succeed but diverted resources from more productive avenues.

"Still," he writes of the campaigns eastward after the liberation of Paris and northeast following Dragoon, "not the least disconcerting aspect of the German revival was the continuing rise of German war production in the face of the Bomber Offensive. The only critical shortages hampering German war industry in the autumn of 1944, after a summer in which the Allied heavy bombers had returned their main effort overwhelmingly to their independent [strategic] campaign, were in oil and communications."

Recall that Spaatz had advocated just this focus - petroleum and communications - months earlier. But Bomber Harris continued to push city bombing. Portal, the British air chief, had become so frustrated with Harris' inclination to resist control and bomb his own way, that he advocated changing organization to rein Harris in. Portal had come around to Spaatz's Petroleum Plan and wanted to find a way to turn Harris' planes to helping with attacks that seemed to be doing harm to the German war effort.

"Yet the new arrangement made little difference to the heavy bombers' availability for the ground campaign, Harris' participation in the Oil Plan, or anything else. . . . [because] Harris became more independent than before," pursuing his terror-bombing; in part this result came because Harris' removal from the direct authority of SHAEF took him out from under the one commander, Eisenhower, whose clout he would at least sometimes heed.

In any event, Weigley says, less than 15% of strategic bombing effort in summer was against Germany's oil and synthetic petroleum production; with that, German monthly production fell to about 10-20% of monthly needs. Weigley cites the growing ineffectiveness of panzer brigades as a consequence of the declining fuel output of the Reich.

"But Portal could not prevail on Harris to bring the great weight of Bomber Command to Spaatz's aid; and after a late summer climax of the Oil Plan . . . a rainy autumn closed in and the oil campaign fell off." Thus Germany's oil production would recover somewhat in fall 1944 and marginally ease the military supply situation.

Weigley observes that this period was the peak of Allied strategic bombing; "At the same time and into the autumn, German war production also achieved ever higher peaks," in part because Speer began to take up the excess capacity in the German economy. One response of the Allies was to re-kick-start the Transportation Plan, targeting rail hubs, marshaling yards, etc within the Reich, whilst maintaining priority on oil.

Reading Weigley it strikes me as possible that Harris' terror campaign was not only immoral and unsuccessful; it undermined and dissipated a coherent bombing strategy, to the detriment of the Allies' war effort. Weigley, his book published in 1981, anticipates some of Overy's argument.

pp 377-379
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:06 pm

Since we dived into hypotheticals about chemical and bacteriological agents in this thread, I'll drop this here: According to Bellamy, there were several suspected instances of Soviet use of chemical weapons in contravention of the USSR's pledge to adhere to the 1925 Geneva Protocol on chemical and bacteriological warfare. The Germans investigated each and decided that in all but one case no such weapons had been used and thus "no further steps were taken by the German high command."

In the final case, a captured Soviet officer told the Germans that he had fired 3 shells containing a chemical agent, lewisite, during fighting near Sevastopol during April 1942. His explanation was that shells marked for lewisite were mistakenly brought to his position and that the Soviet command had sent investigators to determine what had happened and why. The Germans "refused to take any steps whatever, evidently being convinced that there was no planned and premeditated use of war gases," in the words of a postwar US investigation conducted using a former German officer.

Bellamy cites the "professional" and even "legalistic" manner in which both the German and Soviet war machines dealt with these instances, preventing escalation; the reason for such forbearance was the fear of what the other side might do - and the code followed was the Geneva Protocol.

OTOH Bellamy says that in the battles to capture the fortress at Sevastopol in Crimea, the Germans used "toxic smoke" - probably non-persistent chemical agents - to deal with Soviet fighters entrenched there in catacombs and caves. He cites also credible reports of the Germans using similar agents in similar circumstances, although not in as "widespread" a manner, at Odessa in 1941 and in May 1942 during the battle for Kerch, to the east in Crimea. The general German ban on using these weapons in Bellamy's opinion limited their use to these few cases - and German commanders complained of their hands being tied.

Bellamy, Absolute War, pp 461-463
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:30 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:On 23 August 1942 the Luftwaffe carried out a "calling card" raid on Stalingrad using 600 bombers - "the massive use of incendiaries started fires that could be seen forty miles away, gutted immense portions of the city, and inflicted a huge death toll." (Citino, Death of the Wehrmacht, p 248) Citino explicitly compares this bombing to Dresden and argues, relying on Hayward, that earlier death toll estimates for the Stalingrad incendiary attack must be revised downward to 25,000 (p 367). Thousands of more civilians were killed in a similar raid on Stalingrad on 3 September (p 249).

We started talking about this here:

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=28568&hilit=Stalingrad

Balsamo made some good points regarding the weaknesses of the Luftwaffe for strategic bombing, it’s possible the numbers were much lower than the 25,000.
Thanks, I blanked on that thread, you covered this a lot better there - I dunno on the data, just that Citino says that original estimates were closer to 50,000 and that Hayward's recent work makes a reasonable case for 25,000

Going from memory (a spotty proposition at best), I think Beevor said 40,000. I’d have to get it again to see, it was a loan from the library.
Bellamy (c2007) gives 40,000 as the death toll. He adds that as civilians fled Stalingrad, trying to get east across the Volga, German planes targeted them. (p 507)
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:23 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote: Bellamy (c2007) gives 40,000 as the death toll. He adds that as civilians fled Stalingrad, trying to get east across the Volga, German planes targeted them. (p 507)

That's entirely possible if we include civilians outside of the city trying to cross the Volga. I don't know, I think I want more solid data. Did he give a source for his numbers?
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:28 am

Unfortunately, there was no footnote. Recalling your post, I wondered if he had drawn on Beevor.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:02 am

That’s possible. I’ll need to take a look at it again.

That book I got, “Fire and Fury,” turned out to be a dud.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:35 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote: Bellamy (c2007) gives 40,000 as the death toll. He adds that as civilians fled Stalingrad, trying to get east across the Volga, German planes targeted them. (p 507)
Beevor in his book on WW II states that 40,000 is an estimate.

It isn’t footnoted. That’s frustrating.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:36 pm

I still think that number is lower but I’d need more sources to look at.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:42 pm

An oddball conversation among German generals, recorded at the Trent Park detention center, June 1945, concerning the KL film shown the POWs there:
HEIM: The air raid on DRESDEN was a different matter after all.

DITTMAR: Certainly that was quite different from this direct torture of individuals.

HEIM: This slow, intentional systematic murder.

DITTMAR: That's why it can't be compared.

HEIM: The other [DRESDEN] could at least be called warfare in the last analysis.

DITTMAR: You could see there that that was not the only purpose -

HEIM: But this is an absolute disgrace. . . .

FINK (enters): One needs to have seen a film like that.

HEIM: RÖHRICHT said that compared with the 200,000 at DRESDEN -

FINK (excitedly): It can't be compared with DRESDEN!

DITTMAR: That's too weak an argument.

FINK: The Russian method of shooting in the back of the neck is a kindness -

DITTMAR: In comparison with this vileness.
Neitzel, ed, Tapping Hitler's Generals, p 234
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue May 01, 2018 2:28 pm

A less widely discussed case is the German bombing of Belgrade at the outset of Operation Strafgericht, the German invasion of Yugoslavia in April 1941, another famous "preventive war" fought by the Third Reich. According to Prusin in Serbia under the Swastika (pp 23-26), along with railway and other strategic targets, when German bombers and fighters attacked Belgrade, they launched terror strikes against "residential areas, strafing streets and houses." The German air force dropped bombs on hospitals, schools, churches, and crowded marketplaces. German planes also hit at columns of refugees fleeing along main roads. Yugoslav air defenses relied on small calibre guns and proved ineffective in denting the German attacks. Niš and other cities were hit in the days after the opening assault on Belgrade, and Belgrade was hit a second time. Prusin estimates deaths in Belgrade between 2,270 and 4,000 and in Niš at 900.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue May 01, 2018 2:33 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:A less widely discussed case is the German bombing of Belgrade at the outset of Operation Strafgericht, the German invasion of Yugoslavia in March 1941, another famous "preventive war" fought by the Third Reich. According to Prusin in Serbia under the Swastika (pp 23-26), along with railway and other strategic targets, when German bombers and fighters attacked Belgrade, they launched terror strikes again "residential areas, strafing streets and houses." The German air force dropped bombs on hospitals, schools, churches, and crowded marketplaces. German planes also hit at columns of refugees fleeing along main roads. Yugoslav air defenses relied on small calibre guns and proved ineffective in denting the German attacks. Niš and other cities were hit in the days after the opening assault on Belgrade, and Belgrade was hit a second time. Prusin estimates deaths in Belgrade between 2,270 and 4,000 and in Niš at 900.
I brought this up to deniers like been-there in the past. They get all emotional about Allied bombing when the Germans committed the same actions, albeit on a much smaller scale.

Not saying the Allies were right but both sides did bomb each other’s cities. The difference is scale, the Luftwaffe lacked truly heavy bombers due to a lack of resources.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue May 01, 2018 2:52 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I brought this up to deniers like been-there in the past. They get all emotional about Allied bombing when the Germans committed the same actions, albeit on a much smaller scale.

Not saying the Allies were right but both sides did bomb each other’s cities. The difference is scale, the Luftwaffe lacked truly heavy bombers due to a lack of resources.
Yup.

Language can be an enemy of understanding in all this. "Strategic bombing" is not synonymous with Harris' "area bombing" program, which targeted civilians and morale. That the Germans lacked "strategic bombing" capacity via its not building out a true heavy bomber program does not mean that all German bombing was "tactical" in the sense of close support of ground operations. Here, and as we've seen elsewhere, despite the deficit in heavy bombers, the German air force used terror bombing tactics.

And it is indeed possible to be critical of the Allies and the USSR for certain of their actions without doing so to provide cover for German war crimes. Katyn is a classic case. Been-there and that lot give away their game taking the stance you describe.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue May 01, 2018 3:21 pm

“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun May 06, 2018 2:30 pm

Arguably the reprisal and hostage actions undertaken by the German military and police formations in their counter-insurgency efforts and other terror tactics, such as Nacht und Nebel, backfired, steeling - even encouraging - resistance in countries occupied by the Germans.

Chapoutot quotes from Dönitz's famous 17 September 1942 rescue order (p 263). This order, the Laconia-Befehl, followed by a few days an Allied attack on the Germans' attempt to rescue passengers on the sinking British ocean liner RMS Laconia. Dönitz's order read:
To all Commanding Officers:

1. No attempt of any kind must be made to rescue members of ships sunk, and this includes picking up persons in the water and putting them in lifeboats, righting capsized lifeboats, and handing over food and water. Rescue runs counter to the most elementary demands of warfare for the destruction of enemy ships and crews.

2. Orders for bringing back captains and chief engineers still apply.

3. Rescue the shipwrecked only if their statements will be of importance for your boat.

4. Be harsh. Bear in mind that the enemy takes no regard of women and children in his bombing attacks on German cities.
Chapoutot highlights the boldfaced line. (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/05-09-46.asp)

Chapoutot also cites Rendulic's 29 October 1944 commentary on Hitler's order concerning civilians in Norway, which Rendulic passed along to the troops (p 266):
Troops will understand the measures to be taken once for it has been explained to them that the barbaric methods of the air raid war against the German homeland and its cultural patrimony have brought greater misfortune to the German population than the measure we must undertake in Norway . . .
It is not out of the realm of possibility that messages like these fortified German troops, encouraging them to fight harder, hold out, maintain morale, avenge Allied atrocities, and even more closely embrace the use of "harsh measures" in warfare - the exact opposite effect claimed by Bomber Harris for the area bombing of German cities.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:19 am

@Jeff_36: I am reading (about 1/4 into it) a wartime diary written by a German minor official, Freidrich Kellner, who opposed the Nazis. With a few pauses, he kept his diary from the time of Germany's assault on Poland through the end of the war and its immediate aftermath.

During 1939 and 1940, Kellner's diary is filled with comments on the importance of bombing campaigns against aggressors, taken to the aggressor country itself. Air power and air strikes against aggressing countries already form a major theme for Kellner's thinking about the war. He was incensed that the League took no action against Italy in its aggression in Abyssinia; he also chided world power for allowing the USSR to wage war on Finland; and he excoriated England and France for allowing German aggression to succeed in Poland (not to mention Czechoslovakia). Time and again he recommended air strikes on the aggressor country and its infrastructure to deter its military and punish its leaders. He included, of course, a recognition that this policy should have been carried out against his own country, Germany, which he viewed as an aggressor with unlimited ambition for conquest.

I don't know where Kellner will take his theme as the war progresses: I can say that he lived in a small town in Hesse that was by and large spared the kind of bombing we've discussed in this thread. So far, there is a hint that Kellner was a German who may have - stress on "may have" - supported the air campaigns that the Allies eventually carried out - and for reasons you've given: deterrence and punishment of an aggressor who understands only the language of force and brutality.

When I've gotten through the book, I will write up something, tying it back to discussion we've had in this thread, on Kellner's views about the air war. Kellner's views may well be those of a German "bombing victim" that coincide with yours more than mine.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Nessie » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:58 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:.....
It is not out of the realm of possibility that messages like these fortified German troops, encouraging them to fight harder, hold out, maintain morale, avenge Allied atrocities, and even more closely embrace the use of "harsh measures" in warfare - the exact opposite effect claimed by Bomber Harris for the area bombing of German cities.
It definitely did at least intend to have that effect. My dissertation at Uni was the Blitz on Clydebank (I have managed to lose it somewhere during a house move). During research work at the Scottish national archives in Edinburgh, I found detailed records of the bombing, down to the number of houses and casualties per house. There was even a comment on the accuracy compared to British bombing! There were censored official reports of looting, drunkenness and violence by the local people in the aftermath. There was a huge absenteeism from work that week as well, though that is probably not so surprising. People needed to sort out where they would be living.

I checked the Glasgow Herald for the same days. It was full of how the Germans bombed indiscriminately and did not care about the fine people of Clydebank who had shown great heroism and fortitude in the face of such horrendous destruction.

So, the public was told the opposite of what the official records of the raids had said. The obvious reason was to spur the people on and further demonise the Nazis.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Balsamo » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:34 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:A less widely discussed case is the German bombing of Belgrade at the outset of Operation Strafgericht, the German invasion of Yugoslavia in March 1941, another famous "preventive war" fought by the Third Reich. According to Prusin in Serbia under the Swastika (pp 23-26), along with railway and other strategic targets, when German bombers and fighters attacked Belgrade, they launched terror strikes again "residential areas, strafing streets and houses." The German air force dropped bombs on hospitals, schools, churches, and crowded marketplaces. German planes also hit at columns of refugees fleeing along main roads. Yugoslav air defenses relied on small calibre guns and proved ineffective in denting the German attacks. Niš and other cities were hit in the days after the opening assault on Belgrade, and Belgrade was hit a second time. Prusin estimates deaths in Belgrade between 2,270 and 4,000 and in Niš at 900.
I brought this up to deniers like been-there in the past. They get all emotional about Allied bombing when the Germans committed the same actions, albeit on a much smaller scale.

Not saying the Allies were right but both sides did bomb each other’s cities. The difference is scale, the Luftwaffe lacked truly heavy bombers due to a lack of resources.
Again, only to remind that the difference between tactical bombing and strategic ones is not based on how it affects civilians.

I do not think that the lack of heavy bombers was due to lack of resource only. The Luftwaffe was reconstructed quite late before the war, and a strategic choice had to be made. The German chose to follow the tactical path, and given the use they made out of it, it was the best choice. The tactical strategy conceive the air force as a auxiliary to the ground forces. The speed victory during the French campaign was due to this cooperation. The French army had the best tanks - if one except the USSR - by 1940, and there was nothing that a Pz I or II could do against a Somua S35. It is the Stuckas that would made the difference.
Rudel the best pilots is credited to have destroyed 523 tanks, during 2500 missions.

It is the tactical strategy that made the famous "Blitzkrieg" possible. It does not spare civilians. Just like the Russian strategy to shell out cities under siege with artillery.
Both were smarter choices, responding to their respective military and strategic needs.

Great-Britain had different needs and chose a different path as soon as the early 30's and focused on heavy bombers and strategic bombings. Not sure it was really cost-effective, but as an Island, it made some sense to follow the Strategic path.
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Scott Smith » Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:27 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:LOL X 2

I lost patience with Scott’s rambling but Berg’s rant does make visiting entertaining.
I tried to make the point for Fritz that the Germans TRIED to develop strategic bombing like the Allies but simply did not have the resources to do all things. The German Army got Luftwaffe air support for much of the war; the Kriegsmarine mostly did not.

However, I see that I neglected to provide a source for Fritz, who was skeptical of this narrative and committed to the slightly cringeworthy "German genocide via Allied strategic bombing" narrative.

(I also attempted to show in a fun way that the Allies were actually quite interested in German military and technological accomplishments after the war. This did not change until after rocket man Wernher von Braun's death from lung cancer in 1977 and the creation in 1979 of the so-called Office of Special Investigations. The OSI was the brainchild of Communist Jews like NY Congresswoman Elizabeth Holtzman and Neal Sher, and its purpose was to harass German immigrants and forge evidence in the name of Nazi hunting, including the Ukrainian John Demjanjuk, and which still goes on today with nonagenarians who were not anti-Nazi enough like the Polish emigre Jakiw Palij. The year 1979 also coincides with the popular promotion of the term Holocaust itself in Jewish Shoah context.)

Anyway, one need look no further about German efforts on behalf of strategic bombing than the memoirs of Oberst Werner Baumbach (1916-1953), Stabschef for the Inspekteur der Kampfflieger and bearer of the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves and Swords.
Image
The Institute for Historical Review even sells Baumbach's book on the front page of their website.
Image
Also, I have made the point many times that tactical bombing in support of sieges or in direct support of ground forces can be VERY damaging, especially when civilians get in the way.

Furthermore, Luftwaffe General Field Marshal Wolfram von Richthofen, who pioneered close air-support tactics, and others could certainly be ruthless at their craft--even if such StuKa casualties at places like Guernica and Rotterdam, and probably Belgrade, Stalingrad, etc., were shamelessly exaggerated in Allied propaganda--and even to this very day in some circles.

Fritz didn't appreciate some of my arguments. In short, wars are by their nature very destructive and I don't like the term Genocide, even when the Good Guys use it.

Btw, Baumbach's 1949 memoir is typical for the genre but flawed in the sense that his audience is the newly-cucked "Bundestablishment" Germany, and so tries to blame all of the Luftwaffe's strategic bombing doctrine and operational failures on people like Hitler, Göring, Milch, Udet, etc. Speer and Jeschonnek come across as a little better in that regard. Notably, Baumbach is completely silent on KG 200, the semi-covert special Luftwaffe bomber force.

In addition, at one point Baumbach tries to suggest that the bombing of Rotterdam was a reprisal action when in fact in this case the Luftwaffe bombing was a normal support mission for German ground troops at siege. This might have been a simple oversight but the West German censor "corrects" the author in a footnote--or at least this is the case with the IHR publication version.

:)
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Denying-History » Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:30 am

Lol omfg Nathen was right!
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by NathanC » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:43 am

newly cucked Bundestablishment Germany,
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Scott Smith » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:57 am

Yeah, the Germans were forcibly "denazfied." And now they are pinkos right down to Chancellor Merkel's underwear.

;)

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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by NathanC » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:21 pm

Yeah, the Germans were forcibly "denazfied."
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Re: The Bombing Campaigns of the Allies and the Germans

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:53 pm

Forcibly denazification = comprehensive defeat of a criminal and anti-democratic aggressor, as I read what Mr Smith tried saying.
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