1933 Boycott of Jewish Businesses in Germany: "The Jews must be crushed. Their fellows abroad played into our hands."

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Re: 1933 Boycott of Jewish Businesses in Germany: "The Jews must be crushed. Their fellows abroad played into our hands.

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:57 pm

Oh, wait you said:

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I met a Polish man - a well respected and accomplished gentleman, highly educated, keenly intelligent -

None of that describes Fritz, never mind.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: 1933 Boycott of Jewish Businesses in Germany: "The Jews must be crushed. Their fellows abroad played into our hands.

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:00 pm

>> I don't care

Aw, but maybe, just to soothe the sore member, those nitwits really should have brought the press and their state of the art equipment to the gassing.
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Re: 1933 Boycott of Jewish Businesses in Germany: "The Jews must be crushed. Their fellows abroad played into our hands.

Post by montgomery » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:02 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Jeffk, I met a Polish man - a well respected and accomplished gentleman, highly educated, keenly intelligent - and he told me that the Jews declared war on Germany and would have annihilated the Germans had not something been done. I really have to go with what this man told me.
It's an interesting concept! And it stands as one of your more credible posts, due to it not being spam and personal attacks on others.

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Re: 1933 Boycott of Jewish Businesses in Germany: "The Jews must be crushed. Their fellows abroad played into our hands.

Post by Darren Wilshak » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:13 pm

If he was a self-righteous lecturing party called Been There, I have a bridge in Arizona for sale...

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Re: 1933 Boycott of Jewish Businesses in Germany: "The Jews must be crushed. Their fellows abroad played into our hands.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:13 pm

The notion that "the Jews started it" with the boycott movement has always struck me as one of the sillier bits of flimflammery purveyed by deniers. Many of the obvious absurdities connected with the boycott have been discussed in this thread.

Another angle is to look at people's expectations at the time of Hitler's appointment as chancellor, specifically how a Nazi headed government was seen for German Jews. Viktor Klemperer's diary makes clear that he viewed Hitler's accession as a threat to German Jews and an augury of dark times to come. I came across a small incident that shows the way in which Hitler's chancellorship was already in 1933 understood as a dividing line for Jews.

It emerges from the memoirs of Melita Mischmann that she recalls what happened to two of her friends, Marianne and Rele Schweitzer, right after Hitler came into office. Marianne and Rele, daughters of a physician, had grown up Protestant in Berlin. The Jewish background of their father, before the Nazi seizure of power, had never been thought to be significant and the two girls had been left unaware of it. With Hitler in office, their father called the girls into his office and explained the family's history and its new relevance. Melita would become estranged from her friends as they were progressively pushed out of the society in which they'd grown up.
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Re: 1933 Boycott of Jewish Businesses in Germany: "The Jews must be crushed. Their fellows abroad played into our hands.

Post by Nessie » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:47 pm

It is almost as if the US Jews who backed a boycott, were the leaders of all world Jews, had the power to declare war and were picking a fight with the Nazis just out of the blue.
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Re: 1933 Boycott of Jewish Businesses in Germany: "The Jews must be crushed. Their fellows abroad played into our hands.

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:25 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:13 pm
The notion that "the Jews started it" with the boycott movement has always struck me as one of the sillier bits of flimflammery purveyed by deniers. Many of the obvious absurdities connected with the boycott have been discussed in this thread.

Another angle is to look at people's expectations at the time of Hitler's appointment as chancellor, specifically how a Nazi headed government was seen for German Jews. Viktor Klemperer's diary makes clear that he viewed Hitler's accession as a threat to German Jews and an augury of dark times to come. I came across a small incident that shows the way in which Hitler's chancellorship was already in 1933 understood as a dividing line for Jews.

It emerges from the memoirs of Melita Mischmann that she recalls what happened to two of her friends, Marianne and Rele Schweitzer, right after Hitler came into office. Marianne and Rele, daughters of a physician, had grown up Protestant in Berlin. The Jewish background of their father, before the Nazi seizure of power, had never been thought to be significant and the two girls had been left unaware of it. With Hitler in office, their father called the girls into his office and explained the family's history and its new relevance. Melita would become estranged from her friends as they were progressively pushed out of the society in which they'd grown up.
Having just read the first part of Goldhagen's book, I'm much more aware now than earlier of the absolute pervasiveness of antisemitism in the German population. So much so that even strenuous opposition to the Nazi party seems to be compatible with a willingness to share its eliminationist program. Goldhagen quotes Mischmann's diary as one of many examples illustrating this principle.

Many Jews realized very early in 1933 that they needed to get out right away. Prominent among them, of course, was Einstein, who first went to Amsterdam, and then ultimately to Princeton. Another was my adviser Salomon Bochner, who left in 1933, went to Britain briefly, then came to Princeton, where he was of course in very good company. (I imagine at that time that staff meetings at the Institute for Advanced Study and probably in the Mathematics and Physics Departments could have been conducted in German!) Bochner was a student of Erhard Schmidt, who (so I'm told by a fellow Bochner student) was not a Nazi. But I have never heard that he protested against the Nazis either. I don't know what his position was.
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Re: 1933 Boycott of Jewish Businesses in Germany: "The Jews must be crushed. Their fellows abroad played into our hands.

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:38 pm

Followup on the above: At the MacTutor website, I found the following information about Schmidt during the Nazi period.
MacTutor wrote:The 1930s were difficult years for Schmidt. With the Nazi rise to power in 1933 life became increasingly difficult for Schmidt's Jewish colleagues and Schur, von Mises and several others were forced out of their posts. In 1951 a meeting was held in Berlin to celebrate Schmidt's 75th birthday. Hans Freudenthal, himself a Jew who had survived the Nazi years, spoke of Schmidt's difficulties through the 1930s:
Hans Freudenthal wrote:It is so easy to practise the honesty that mathematics demands in mathematics itself. If you don't, you will be punished quickly and bitterly. It is so much more difficult to stick to this virtue, proven with numbers and figures, against humans and friends. That we outside, excluded for years from a hostile Germany, know this, and never doubted on you, this is evident from the large number of contributions from abroad that have reached the editors of the Festschrift.
In his reply to Freudenthal's address Schmidt spoke of his love of the University of Berlin:
Erhard Schmidt wrote:I simply loved my students. And exactly the same is true of the university as a whole. I love the University of Berlin, whether it happens to be in happy conditions or not - this does not change anything. I have loved it from the time I have been in Berlin and I will remain faithful to it.
In 1936, when the problems were very difficult, Schmidt was made head of the German delegation to the International Congress of Mathematicians at Oslo. Schmidt held positions of authority at the University of Berlin through these difficult years of Nazi rule. He had to carry through the resolutions against Jews but one of Bieberbach's assistants reported in 1938:

I think that Schmidt does not at all understand the Jewish question.

I'm not sure what to make of that. To say that "the problems were very difficult" is an inexcusable whitewash. Schmidt did NOT have to "carry through the resolutions against Jews." He could have resigned; he could have refused. And it was Schmidt who hired the rabid antisemite Bieberbach in 1921. I don't suppose he can be blamed for that, since (if Goldhagen is correct, and I think he is) any German he hired would have been antisemitic, and it would not have been an issue at that time. But there is far too much willingness to give a pass to people who were "caught in the system." The fact that one of Bieberbach's assistants thought Schmidt was soft on Jews is hardly high praise or even exculpatory. I need more information as to why Freudenthal and other Jewish mathematicians thought Schmidt was one of their friends. Meanwhile, it strikes me as unethical to make love of one's university the highest value, as Schmidt implies he did.
“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.”

― Frédéric Bastiat (1801–1850), French economist

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Re: 1933 Boycott of Jewish Businesses in Germany: "The Jews must be crushed. Their fellows abroad played into our hands.

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:32 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:25 pm
Having just read the first part of Goldhagen's book, I'm much more aware now than earlier of the absolute pervasiveness of antisemitism in the German population. So much so that even strenuous opposition to the Nazi party seems to be compatible with a willingness to share its eliminationist program. Goldhagen quotes Mischmann's diary as one of many examples illustrating this principle.
Hi, Upton.

I want to let you finish with Goldhagen’s book before commenting too much. But while I agree that antisemitism was a part of German society it wasn’t anymore or any less pervasive than in other European countries. Goldhagen overemphasizes the German aspect of it while ignoring that it was also very pervasive in places like France, Poland, Romania, etc. In fact violence towards Jews was historically much more prevalent in Russia than it ever was in Germany.

It’s been some time since I read Goldhagen’s book, I own it (or did) but it’s been 3-4 years since I looked at it. When you finish open a thread on it. I’ll see if I can track my copy down but the library also has a digital copy I can borrow.

The 1933 boycott organized by the Nazi government wound up being a failure and actually an embarrassment. Germans really didn’t go along with it for a variety of reasons.

I will suggest you track down a copy of “Ordinary Men.” There is a revised edition that is worth reading.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: 1933 Boycott of Jewish Businesses in Germany: "The Jews must be crushed. Their fellows abroad played into our hands.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:20 am

LOL I started a post like this today - addressing "if Goldhagen is correct, and I think he is" - but trashed it for the reason you gave: to let Upton finish with Goldhagen and read perhaps Browning and Friedlander. I'd go so far as to say that before the Third Reich other European countries than Germany seem to have had more popular anti-Semitism.
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Re: 1933 Boycott of Jewish Businesses in Germany: "The Jews must be crushed. Their fellows abroad played into our hands.

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:38 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:20 am
LOL I started a post like this today - addressing "if Goldhagen is correct, and I think he is" - but trashed it for the reason you gave: to let Upton finish with Goldhagen and read perhaps Browning and Friedlander. I'd go so far as to say that before the Third Reich other European countries than Germany seem to have had more popular anti-Semitism.
Another good book (I think you said you haven’t read it yet) is “Why the Germans? Why the Jews?” by Gotz Aly.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: 1933 Boycott of Jewish Businesses in Germany: "The Jews must be crushed. Their fellows abroad played into our hands.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:03 am

Yeah, it sits on my "books to read" stack. Another angle at this would be studies of Wehrmacht soldiers and attitudes they brought into combat. Neitzel & Welzer, Soldaten, comes to mind.
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Re: 1933 Boycott of Jewish Businesses in Germany: "The Jews must be crushed. Their fellows abroad played into our hands.

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:23 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:03 am
Yeah, it sits on my "books to read" stack. Another angle at this would be studies of Wehrmacht soldiers and attitudes they brought into combat. Neitzel & Welzer, Soldaten, comes to mind.
I think we need to extend that to not only what they thought about Jews but what they thought about Poles, Soviet citizen...

Why, look at us, analyzing history!!!!!

Damnit I need to post something from Carlos Porter to lighten the mood!!!

LOL
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: 1933 Boycott of Jewish Businesses in Germany: "The Jews must be crushed. Their fellows abroad played into our hands.

Post by Balmoral95 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:28 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:23 am
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:03 am
Yeah, it sits on my "books to read" stack. Another angle at this would be studies of Wehrmacht soldiers and attitudes they brought into combat. Neitzel & Welzer, Soldaten, comes to mind.
I think we need to extend that to not only what they thought about Jews but what they thought about Poles, Soviet citizen...

Why, look at us, analyzing history!!!!!

Damnit I need to post something from Carlos Porter to lighten the mood!!!

LOL

Might be interesting to have a serious look into German experience in WWI Russia....

I'm ignoring the Porter remark :mrgreen:

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Re: 1933 Boycott of Jewish Businesses in Germany: "The Jews must be crushed. Their fellows abroad played into our hands.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:31 am

perhaps a new thread on this, to keep this thread focused on the boycott?
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Re: 1933 Boycott of Jewish Businesses in Germany: "The Jews must be crushed. Their fellows abroad played into our hands.

Post by Balmoral95 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:41 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:31 am
perhaps a new thread on this, to keep this thread focused on the boycott?
Sounds good...

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Re: 1933 Boycott of Jewish Businesses in Germany: "The Jews must be crushed. Their fellows abroad played into our hands.

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:44 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:28 am
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:23 am
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:03 am
Yeah, it sits on my "books to read" stack. Another angle at this would be studies of Wehrmacht soldiers and attitudes they brought into combat. Neitzel & Welzer, Soldaten, comes to mind.
I think we need to extend that to not only what they thought about Jews but what they thought about Poles, Soviet citizen...

Why, look at us, analyzing history!!!!!

Damnit I need to post something from Carlos Porter to lighten the mood!!!

LOL

Might be interesting to have a serious look into German experience in WWI Russia....

I'm ignoring the Porter remark :mrgreen:
That’s probably for the best.

Been a bit since I looked into WW I, got some books on it that I can drag out.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: 1933 Boycott of Jewish Businesses in Germany: "The Jews must be crushed. Their fellows abroad played into our hands.

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:45 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:31 am
perhaps a new thread on this, to keep this thread focused on the boycott?
That’ll work. I’ll see what I can pull out of my stack of stuff.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: 1933 Boycott of Jewish Businesses in Germany: "The Jews must be crushed. Their fellows abroad played into our hands.

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:54 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:32 pm
Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:25 pm
Having just read the first part of Goldhagen's book, I'm much more aware now than earlier of the absolute pervasiveness of antisemitism in the German population. So much so that even strenuous opposition to the Nazi party seems to be compatible with a willingness to share its eliminationist program. Goldhagen quotes Mischmann's diary as one of many examples illustrating this principle.
Hi, Upton.

I want to let you finish with Goldhagen’s book before commenting too much. But while I agree that antisemitism was a part of German society it wasn’t anymore or any less pervasive than in other European countries. Goldhagen overemphasizes the German aspect of it while ignoring that it was also very pervasive in places like France, Poland, Romania, etc. In fact violence towards Jews was historically much more prevalent in Russia than it ever was in Germany.

It’s been some time since I read Goldhagen’s book, I own it (or did) but it’s been 3-4 years since I looked at it. When you finish open a thread on it. I’ll see if I can track my copy down but the library also has a digital copy I can borrow.

The 1933 boycott organized by the Nazi government wound up being a failure and actually an embarrassment. Germans really didn’t go along with it for a variety of reasons.

I will suggest you track down a copy of “Ordinary Men.” There is a revised edition that is worth reading.
Thanks Jeff, I'll get "Ordinary Men" after I finish with Goldhagen. Still, the sheer number of atrocities against Jews in Germany, all through the 1930s, is appalling. I was particularly disappointed to learn that even Thomas Mann expressed satisfaction with the expulsion of Jewish judges. Mann also went to live (beyond his means, I've heard) in Princeton. I used to go frequently to the house where he lived (1938--1940) when I was a graduate student (1963--1966). It was by that time the Catholic Student Center and chapel.
“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.”

― Frédéric Bastiat (1801–1850), French economist