General Books/Reading Discussion

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:58 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:List from Nick Terry, it’s probably a duplicate but anyway:

It would be impossible to take seriously anyone who has not absorbed, at least via the secondary literature, the significance of the GVL sources for our knowledge and understanding of Chelmno, just as it would be impossible to take seriously anyone who ignored the 1945 Polish investigation or the early 1960s West German investigation of Chelmno.

Wow! Thank you, Jeff! I knew I was behind others here in my reading, but I had no idea how FAR behind I was. Well, I can learn from you guys as I read and educate myself. This is a great site.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:01 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:List from Nick Terry, it’s probably a duplicate but anyway:

It would be impossible to take seriously anyone who has not absorbed, at least via the secondary literature, the significance of the GVL sources for our knowledge and understanding of Chelmno, just as it would be impossible to take seriously anyone who ignored the 1945 Polish investigation or the early 1960s West German investigation of Chelmno.

Wow! Thank you, Jeff! I knew I was behind others here in my reading, but I had no idea how FAR behind I was. Well, I can learn from you guys as I read and educate myself. This is a great site.
Yeah, trust me, looked at that list and went :shock:

:D

I have read some of those books. The problem is that some are hard to find and then cost prohibitive to someone like me who purchases judiciously throughout the year and then gets Amazon Gift Cards at Christmas.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:07 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:List from Nick Terry, it’s probably a duplicate but anyway:

It would be impossible to take seriously anyone who has not absorbed, at least via the secondary literature, the significance of the GVL sources for our knowledge and understanding of Chelmno, just as it would be impossible to take seriously anyone who ignored the 1945 Polish investigation or the early 1960s West German investigation of Chelmno.

Wow! Thank you, Jeff! I knew I was behind others here in my reading, but I had no idea how FAR behind I was. Well, I can learn from you guys as I read and educate myself. This is a great site.
BTW, if you haven’t, get these:
Cesarani, Final Solution 2016 1604 notes
Gerlach, The Extermination of the European Jews 2016 2404 notes

Very good starting points for anyone who wants to know more about the subject but isn’t sure where to begin.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by nickterry » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:50 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote: 3. Zelle, Hitlers zweifelnde Elite 2010 1192 notes
10. Essner, Nürnberger Gesetze 2002 1749 notes
13. Barth, Goebbels und die Juden 2003 1347 notes
125. Lanicek, Czechs, Slovaks and the Jews 2013 1145 notes - PhD version
148. Weinke, Die Verfolgung von NS-Tätern im geteilten Deutschland 2002 1499 notes
171. Earl, The Nuremberg SS-Einsatzgruppen Trial 2009 1352 notes - PhD version
176. Curilla, Die deutsche Ordnungspolizei und der Holocaust 2006 8270 notes
182. Hasenclever, Wehrmacht und Besatzungspolitik 2010 3107 notes
189. Berkhoff, Harvest of Despair 2004 1620 notes -PhD version
210. Beorn, Marching into Darkness 2014 1055 notes - PhD version
211. Pieper, Fegelein’s Horsemen 2014 811 notes - PhD version
215. Birn, Die Sicherheitspolizei in Estland 2006
224. Ioanid, The Holocaust in Romania 2000 1378 notes
228. Steinhart, The Holocaust and the Germanization of Ukraine 2015 933 notes - PhD version
248. Seidel, Deutsche Besatzungspolitik in Polen 2006 2032 notes
256. Musial, Deutsche Zivilverwaltung und Judenverfolgung 1999 1384 notes
263. Bender, The Jews of Bialystok 1997 (2008) 1018 notes
272. Wardzyńska, Był rok 1939 2009 277 notes
277. Jockheck, Propaganda im Generalgouvernement 2006 1116 notes
309. Poznanski, Jews in France during World War II 1997 (2001) 2446 notes
314. Seibel, Persecution and Rescue 2010 (2016) 944 notes - German edition Macht und Moral online
318. Van Doorslaer (ed), La Belgique docile 2007 4252 notes
334. Osterloh, Nationalsozialistische Judenverfolgung im Sudetenland 2006
Just to highlight books that are legal freebies or whose PhD versions are online open-access. Most through Digi20 and ostdok.de, Theses Canada, and other links given here - scroll down for secondary works
https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... s-and.html
the links here also point to other works not included in the sample of 392 books,plus articles in open-access journals.

Renee Poznanski on France and Sara Bender on Bialystok are two highlights.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:51 pm

I'd add Friedlander to Jeffk's recommendation for survey-type books to start with. It integrated Jewish perspectives very well.

What is funny about that list is that the "revisionists" we encounter here - whose project as they announce it is to revise the core conclusions of Holocaust scholarship - have read very few of these works. One at ISF admitted he'd read just 3 on a similar list. They fail to see the irony of taking on the revision of works they are unfamiliar with.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:07 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I'd add Friedlander to Jeffk's recommendation for survey-type books to start with. It integrated Jewish perspectives very well.

What is funny about that list is that the "revisionists" we encounter here - whose project as they announce it is to revise the core conclusions of Holocaust scholarship - have read very few of these works. One at ISF admitted he'd read just 3 on a similar list. They fail to see the irony of taking on the revision of works they are unfamiliar with.
Oh, yes, Friedlander is a good one. Oddly I never got the first volume, Years of Persecution. The bookstore only owned Years of Extermination. I’ve see the first volume here and there but I felt like other works covered that period very well.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:45 pm

ordered:

Goran Miljan, Croatia and the Rise of Fascism: The Youth Movement and the Ustasha During WWII
Edmond Paris, Genocide in Satellite Croatia, 1941-1945: A Record of Racial and Religious Persecutions and Massacres
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:50 pm

I am going to revise my reading list (yet again!!!) due to a re-read of “Final Solution.”

Started reading because I don’t have any new Kindle books, got sucked in, will now finish before going back to the Einsatzgruppen book.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:38 pm

“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:59 pm

Yes, Montague's book is much superior. Montague + HC stuff gives a good picture. Krakowski is fine - IIRC he has a lot on Heinz May - but not as strong as this other stuff.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:06 pm

I think I’ll just avoid it. It’s reasonably priced but I have enough books as a backlog as it is.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:20 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’m thinking about making this mandatory reading for anyone thinking to post in the HD subforum:

Image

Really, we need to make this mandatory reading.

:mrgreen:
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:36 pm

Currently reading:

-The Last Gasp: The Rise and Fall of the American Gas Chamber (2010)
Scott Christianson
(Note: May recommend to SM. It has a good chapter dedicated to the final solution.)

- Napoleon (1995)
Vincent Cronin

-The Revolution and the Civil War in Spain (1972)
Pierre Broue

-The Great Irish Famine: Impact, Ideology and Rebellion (2001)
Christine Kinealy

-Enver Hoxha: The Iron Fist of Albania (2017)
Blendi Fevziu
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by montgomery » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:39 am

Carlos Whitlock Porter's list of books can be found on his website.

http://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDF_Books/ ... ocaust.pdf

Expand your minds out of the holocaust sandbox and read something in which you'll find some truth for a change. Dreaming of the legend will cause hair to grow on your palms.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:47 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:05 am
Mulling these over:

Götz Aly
Cleansing the Fatherland: Nazi Medicine and Racial Hygiene

Architects of Annihilation: Auschwitz and the Logic of Destruction 1St edition by Aly, Götz, Heim, Susanne

Edward B. Westermann
Hitler's Police Battalions: Enforcing Racial War in the East (Modern War Studies (Paperback)) by Edward B. Westermann (2005-05-27)

Dr Caroline Sturdy Colls
Treblinka: Archaeological and Artistic Responses (Centre of Archaeology Book Series)

Nicholas Chare
Matters of Testimony: Interpreting the Scrolls of Auschwitz

Jadwiga Bezwinska
Amidst a Nightmare of Crime: Manuscripts of Prisoners in Crematorium Squads Found at Auschwitz


These are a definite:
Yitzhak Arad
The Operation Reinhard Death Camps, Revised and Expanded Edition: Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka

Paul Hanebrink
A Specter Haunting Europe: The Myth of Judeo-Bolshevism


Lucjan Dobroszycki
The Holocaust in the Soviet Union: Studies and Sources on the Destruction of the Jews in the Nazi-occupied Territories of the USSR, 1941-45


If anyone has read these give me your opinion.
Ordered this one tonight:

Lucjan Dobroszycki
The Holocaust in the Soviet Union: Studies and Sources on the Destruction of the Jews in the Nazi-occupied Territories of the USSR, 1941-45

Found a used copy that’s in acceptable condition for 8.95. That saves me almost 40 bucks.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:57 am

D-H has interesting reading lists. Who knew there was an English language biography of Enver Hoxha?
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:36 pm

D-H branches out and finds all sorts of stuff to read.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:04 pm

Reading Mary Fulbrook’s new book, Reckonings, which looks really different. It opens with Szlamek Winer.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:21 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:04 pm
Reading Mary Fulbrook’s new book, Reckonings, which looks really different. It opens with Szlamek Winer.

Hey...didn’t we have a member who recently went on about that???

:lol:
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:55 am

Books I forgot to list:

-Nankin daigyakusatsu no shōmei
Tomio Hora

- The Crimes of War: Guilt and Denial in the Twentieth Century (finishing up)
Omer Bartov

-Behind the Facade of Stalin's Command Economy: Evidence from the Soviet State and Party Archives
Paul Gregory

-Lenin: A New Biography
Dmitri Volkogonov

Recently finished:

German Atrocities, 1914: A History of Denial
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:02 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:47 am
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:05 am
Mulling these over:

Götz Aly
Cleansing the Fatherland: Nazi Medicine and Racial Hygiene

Architects of Annihilation: Auschwitz and the Logic of Destruction 1St edition by Aly, Götz, Heim, Susanne

Edward B. Westermann
Hitler's Police Battalions: Enforcing Racial War in the East (Modern War Studies (Paperback)) by Edward B. Westermann (2005-05-27)

Dr Caroline Sturdy Colls
Treblinka: Archaeological and Artistic Responses (Centre of Archaeology Book Series)

Nicholas Chare
Matters of Testimony: Interpreting the Scrolls of Auschwitz

Jadwiga Bezwinska
Amidst a Nightmare of Crime: Manuscripts of Prisoners in Crematorium Squads Found at Auschwitz


These are a definite:
Yitzhak Arad
The Operation Reinhard Death Camps, Revised and Expanded Edition: Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka

Paul Hanebrink
A Specter Haunting Europe: The Myth of Judeo-Bolshevism


Lucjan Dobroszycki
The Holocaust in the Soviet Union: Studies and Sources on the Destruction of the Jews in the Nazi-occupied Territories of the USSR, 1941-45


If anyone has read these give me your opinion.
Ordered this one tonight:

Lucjan Dobroszycki
The Holocaust in the Soviet Union: Studies and Sources on the Destruction of the Jews in the Nazi-occupied Territories of the USSR, 1941-45

Found a used copy that’s in acceptable condition for 8.95. That saves me almost 40 bucks.
This came in today. Probably won’t start on it until Monday.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:51 am

new order:

-A History of the Nanjing Massacre
Edited by Zhang Xianwen
Arriving Nov 1 - Nov 28
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:30 pm


Ordered this one tonight:

Lucjan Dobroszycki
The Holocaust in the Soviet Union: Studies and Sources on the Destruction of the Jews in the Nazi-occupied Territories of the USSR, 1941-45

Found a used copy that’s in acceptable condition for 8.95. That saves me almost 40 bucks.
Started this one...
It’s a bit different than what I thought it was going to be. I am going to post something on Soviet attitudes towards the Holocaust when I get a chance.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by nickterry » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:55 pm

Been reading:

Steven Remy's The Malmedy Massacre (2017), after Gilles Karmasyn recommended it on an old HC blog post. Excellent and comprehensive study of the pretrial case, trial, aftermath, review boards and political campaigns in the US and West Germany. It is a good mythbusting study that fits alongside the many other recent studies of 1940s trials, e.g. Jardim's book on the Mauthausen trial. Deniers would hate it.

Bernd Greiner, War Without Fronts (2010), a study of US war crimes in Vietnam written by a German historian at Hamburg University. Translated! Greiner dug into some underutilised official investigative files on hundreds of war crimes as well as unused material on My Lai. His early chapters are extremely strong on the 'big picture'.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:45 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:30 pm

Ordered this one tonight:

Lucjan Dobroszycki
The Holocaust in the Soviet Union: Studies and Sources on the Destruction of the Jews in the Nazi-occupied Territories of the USSR, 1941-45

Found a used copy that’s in acceptable condition for 8.95. That saves me almost 40 bucks.
Started this one...
It’s a bit different than what I thought it was going to be. I am going to post something on Soviet attitudes towards the Holocaust when I get a chance.
This is a surprisingly quick read, I have about 100 pages left.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:57 pm

Fulbrook's book is different. She has divided the book into three sections, the first is kind of a set-up for what will follow and an introduction of key themes (like open air shootings, so-called euthanasia, the death camps), case studies (e.g., Lodz and Chelmno, Mielec, the Heinkel company), and individuals during the war. Fulbrook doesn't expand too much in this section; it is not a history of the Holocaust or Nazi criminality but rather thematic and episodic highlights.

The second section pertains to the trials that would come after the war, returning to many of the folks and themes introduced in section 1. Again, the trials aren't dealt with in depth but rather for how people processed them, how the framed issues, and what their lingering impact would be.

Section 3 - which I've not gotten t yet - treats popular responses, across the world. Throughout Fulbrook looks in turn at perpetrators, victims and bystanders, not exactly accepting and not quite rejecting these categories.

(Btw Fulbrook's book A Small Town Near Auschwitz: Ordinary Nazis and the Holocaust is really good. There are three posts mentioning Fulbrook at ISF - two by Nick Terry, one by me quoting Nick Terry - but not this book, and, you guessed it, no references to Fulbrook or her work at Rodoh. But, blech, books.)
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:57 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:57 pm
. . . But, blech, books. . .
The proud anti-intellectual stance we see from revs here from time to time and at Rodoh is a bit perplexing.

I myself don't feel any need to read revisionist tracts as doing so won't help with my interests, my interests not Including the revision of revisionism, a form of crankery and cruelty I don’t take seriously as an assessment of the past. I began posting at Rodoh almost by mistake. Having read a bit about the Weimar period, which struck me as an interesting experiment, if fragile, volatile and fraught, I was interested first of all in the violent and total suppression of this experiment in democracy and modernism. Which led me to read about the Third Reich of course, at first focusing on the Machtergreifung, the Night of the Long Knives, and other features of the early years.

In the back of my mind, however, was a parallel thought, which became first a parallel track and then the main track. This was the failure of Marxist approaches to the understanding of history to deal with fascism and genocide. I'd read Poulantzas' book on this, in which he shows how fundamentalist Marxism could not grasp what was at play with the rise of fascist movements in the '30s and '40s, through his look at the Comintern; much as I liked Poulantzas' book, I came to a different conclusion than he did: a "better" Marxism IMO wouldn't successfully account for fascism, let alone genocide, either. So improving Marxism seemed to me a dead end; I think that it's proven so, over the decades, btw. (I'd come to a similar conclusion with American history, btw, not that American history is the history of fascism and genocide, but rather that Marxist approaches didn't really bring out the richness of ethnic and racial issues in the American past, and didn't deal effectively with American nationalism.)

So my motivation has long been to account for fascism (and extreme nationalisms) and for genocide, which in the '90s let's say, I felt was being handled only poorly in any reading I did. Reading Mattogno or IHR or whatever would be well and truly useless to such an interest. So reading such stuff has never been a compelling need for me.

Somehow I stumbled on Rodoh (thanks, Google or IE or Alta Vista or whatever I was using back in the day!). Even then, coming across Rodoh was a bit like seeing a horrific accident. But (I read the forum as a lurker for quite some time before posting in it) there seemed to be interesting folks commenting there, some of their names known to members here, others (like davidwoolfe) lost in the digital mists. So eventually I began posting at Rodoh, and, willy-nilly, despite the uselessness of revisionist "literature" (I should probably write "revisionist" "literature"), I began to read some of it. And through the years more and more of it. More of it, probably, than some revisionist forum posters.

Which brings me to my point: Holocaust deniers fancy themselves "historical revisionists." To have a school of historical thought the goal of which is to critique and ultimately replace ("revise") the current thought about a period is a project that by the very nature of its goal requires immersion in the current literature.

When I was in graduate school, for example, Herbert Hoover revisionism (starting with IIRC Murray Rothbard) was all the rage, as was a kind of slavery revisionism (Fogel and Engerman). Hoover revisionists attacked the "traditional" view that Hoover was a small government yahoo who did nothing other than protect big business in the face of the Great Depression; to make their case they looked at Hoover's biography and his actions in office during 1929-1932 - and compared an contrasted their findings in two ways, to what liberal historians like Schlesinger argued and to FDR's time in office. This required that they confront a vast body of historical literature. Fogel and Engerman looked at a number of "traditional" viewpoints on slavery - historians' conclusions that slavery was economically irrational and unprofitable, was dying out anyway due to its internal weaknesses, was the root of the South's stagnation and lack of potential, and was based on a harsh regime for slaves, including their material well being and punishment. To make their case, they used econometric methods to challenge, in their view, the dominant historigraphy on American slavery.

My point isn't to tout Hoover or slavery revisionism - IMO both were misguided and unsuccessful efforts, although Hoover revisionism did bring some interesting findings to light - but to contrast how revisionist historians work with how "historical revisionists" work. When a scholar of the period we study, like Nick Terry, asks "historical revisionists" about their reading of recent scholarly Holocaust literature (recall EtienneSC's miserable record), it's not for bragging rights: rather, their dismal answer - and self-congratulatory know-nothingism - expose the fallacy at the heart of their enterprise. They claim the mantle of revisionist without even a small knowledge of what it is that they are revising. They don't know the scholarship they say needs replacing. Yet they are anxious to replace it and to promote the superiority of their claims - to what they've barely considered or assessed. This makes their project, at heart, bogus and political-polemical.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:55 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:57 pm


I myself don't feel any need to read revisionist tracts as doing so won't help with my interests
I did in the beginning. I wanted to understand where deniers were coming from, it just convinced me the lot of them were loons.
So eventually I began posting at Rodoh, and, willy-nilly, despite the uselessness of revisionist "literature" (I should probably write "revisionist" "literature"), I began to read some of it. And through the years more and more of it. More of it, probably, than some revisionist forum posters.
With me it was FG’s blog. As I’ve relayed before, I stumbled upon it quite by accident while looking something up one night.
When a scholar of the period we study, like Nick Terry, asks "historical revisionists" about their reading of recent scholarly Holocaust literature (recall EtienneSC's miserable record), it's not for bragging rights: rather, their dismal answer - and self-congratulatory know-nothingism - expose the fallacy at the heart of their enterprise. They claim the mantle of revisionist without even a small knowledge of what it is that they are revising. They don't know the scholarship they say needs replacing. Yet they are anxious to replace it and to promote the superiority of their claims - to what they've barely considered or assessed. This makes their project, at heart, bogus and political-polemical.
This was me as well. I saw deniers bashing things like “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” a book published in the early 60’s when by that time I read Evan’s Third Reich Trilogy or Kershaw’s Hitler biography. They treated Hilberg’s three volume work as the absolute end of scholarship when by that time I read Friedländer, Rees, Browning, etc. That isn’t to say that older works don’t have value, Hilberg is a classic for good reason and Shirer was my introduction to the subject (my gateway book, if you will :D). I also read a lot of military history on both the 1st and 2nd wars which helped me understand the conditions of the Eastern Front.

This extended to other works on both the USSR, Communism and the history of Europe in general that helped me get why things evolved in the way they did. Without that understanding it’s hard to grasp what happened and why it happened the way it did.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:03 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:55 pm
[I saw deniers bashing things like “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” a book published in the early 60’s when by that time I read Evan’s Third Reich Trilogy or Kershaw’s Hitler biography. They treated Hilberg’s three volume work as the absolute end of scholarship when by that time I read Friedländer, Rees, Browning, etc. That isn’t to say that older works don’t have value, Hilberg is a classic for good reason and Shirer was my introduction to the subject (my gateway book, if you will :D). I also read a lot of military history on both the 1st and 2nd wars which helped me understand the conditions of the Eastern Front.

This extended to other works on both the USSR, Communism and the history of Europe in general that helped me get why things evolved in the way they did. Without that understanding it’s hard to grasp what happened and why it happened the way it did.
It would be as though the HC writers didn't immerse themselves in what deniers are writing - but then critique and debunk it anyway. The contrast between HC and most deniers is pretty well total. I really can't take denial or deniers seriously, except as conspiracy theorists, anti-Semites, and political propagandists.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:15 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:03 pm
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:55 pm
[I saw deniers bashing things like “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” a book published in the early 60’s when by that time I read Evan’s Third Reich Trilogy or Kershaw’s Hitler biography. They treated Hilberg’s three volume work as the absolute end of scholarship when by that time I read Friedländer, Rees, Browning, etc. That isn’t to say that older works don’t have value, Hilberg is a classic for good reason and Shirer was my introduction to the subject (my gateway book, if you will :D). I also read a lot of military history on both the 1st and 2nd wars which helped me understand the conditions of the Eastern Front.

This extended to other works on both the USSR, Communism and the history of Europe in general that helped me get why things evolved in the way they did. Without that understanding it’s hard to grasp what happened and why it happened the way it did.
It would be as though the HC writers didn't immerse themselves in what deniers are writing - but then critique and debunk it anyway. The contrast between HC and most deniers is pretty well total. I really can't take denial or deniers seriously, except as conspiracy theorists, anti-Semites, and political propagandists.
I now look at it as they read it so I don’t have to. I don’t have the time or patience anymore.

That was what I experienced that so disgusted me, this obsession with Jews and the blatant antisemetic attitude they all had. I also have no patience for conspiracy theories or the people who peddle them. It was a denier that introduced me to 9-11 “Truthers.” I also never got the love affair with Onkel Dolfie and the mooning over this supposed “golden age” of German history.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:12 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:45 pm
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:30 pm

Ordered this one tonight:

Lucjan Dobroszycki
The Holocaust in the Soviet Union: Studies and Sources on the Destruction of the Jews in the Nazi-occupied Territories of the USSR, 1941-45

Found a used copy that’s in acceptable condition for 8.95. That saves me almost 40 bucks.
Started this one...
It’s a bit different than what I thought it was going to be. I am going to post something on Soviet attitudes towards the Holocaust when I get a chance.
This is a surprisingly quick read, I have about 100 pages left.
Initial impressions:
It rates about a 5 on a scale of 10. I’m glad I waited to buy.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:33 pm

Found this on my library app:
A Lethal Obsession: Antisemetism from Antiquity to the Global Jihad

Decided to download and will read when I’m done with the Holocaust in the Soviet Union. I’ve got a vacation coming next week so I’m hoping to read it while traveling.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:00 pm

nickterry wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:55 pm
Been reading:

Steven Remy's The Malmedy Massacre (2017), after Gilles Karmasyn recommended it on an old HC blog post. Excellent and comprehensive study of the pretrial case, trial, aftermath, review boards and political campaigns in the US and West Germany. It is a good mythbusting study that fits alongside the many other recent studies of 1940s trials, e.g. Jardim's book on the Mauthausen trial. Deniers would hate it.

Bernd Greiner, War Without Fronts (2010), a study of US war crimes in Vietnam written by a German historian at Hamburg University. Translated! Greiner dug into some underutilised official investigative files on hundreds of war crimes as well as unused material on My Lai. His early chapters are extremely strong on the 'big picture'.
Agree on Remy.

I misread Greiner's title as War Without Fonts - I thought it was maybe about preliterate societies at first!
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:36 am

This just struck me as interesting, in the light of the denier meme that one way Europe's Jews "got lost" was through changing their names after the war ... Mary Fulbrook discusses the children of Holocaust victims and survivors; among the survivors' children, she notes, it was common for parents to give them names of perished relatives.

This burden of carrying the name of a dead person became too much for many of these second generation Jews, who felt that they could not measure up to the expectation the name placed upon them. One of these children said that the name and family role made her feel like the "family hearse." (pp 465-466)
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:20 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:12 pm
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:45 pm
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:30 pm

Ordered this one tonight:

Lucjan Dobroszycki
The Holocaust in the Soviet Union: Studies and Sources on the Destruction of the Jews in the Nazi-occupied Territories of the USSR, 1941-45

Found a used copy that’s in acceptable condition for 8.95. That saves me almost 40 bucks.
Started this one...
It’s a bit different than what I thought it was going to be. I am going to post something on Soviet attitudes towards the Holocaust when I get a chance.
This is a surprisingly quick read, I have about 100 pages left.
Initial impressions:
It rates about a 5 on a scale of 10. I’m glad I waited to buy.
Finished this morning.

I can’t recommend it. While there were interesting bits of information here and there overall it was a disappointment.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:18 pm

Picking up “The Terrible Secret.”
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:03 am

Currently reading:

-Wartime Military Records on Comfort Women: Information War against Korea, United States, and Japan
Archie Miyamoto

-Napoleon (continuing from where I left off last.)
Vincent Cronin

-The Revolution and the Civil War in Spain (Finishing up)
Pierre Broue
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:40 pm

This collection of papers on the kresy 1939-1941 edited by Barkan, Cole & Struve is fascination. Joanna Michlic has an excellent contribution on historiographical issues, from which I will cop from for a post in the Jewish-Bolshevism thread.

But here I wanted to quote from Michlic's perspective about how proper historical methodology as opposed to the methodologies used by ethno-nationalist historicans who author heroic, one-dimensional accounts of an ethnic group identified as a nation or host nation:
historians . . . recognize the subjective nature of their approach as rooted in their social belonging to a certain community; . . . they must strive to maintain a critical position towards the model of writing (ethno-) national history, which concentrates on the sufferings of just one community - the majority nation to whom the writer belongs - and discounts the multivalent narratives of other ethnic and cultural groups.
Michlic specifies that in studying the kresy during this period, historians will be misled if they look through the lens of one group, or of a stereotype like Judeo-communism, a construct of one ethno-national group, rather than critically examining "the interethnic conflicts" and relations among multiple groups, thereby confronting "multivalent perspectives." Michlic further faults historians who accept Jewish sources uncriticially and reminds readers that the approach of Oyneg Shabes, one of the greatest collectors of these sources, was rooted in how the collectors
viewed this material as requiring a critical apparatus and not to be treated at face value. The testimonies were to be a resource for historians, who were supposed to analyze them in a critical fashion.
(pp 967-97, 101) Given that Michlic here explains how contemporary "Holocaust believing" scholars approach the borderlands, and indeed the topic in general, the charge levied by deniers that Holocaust historiography is Jewish or relies on uncritical acceptance of Jewish testimonies, etc, is more than a little disingenuous. It's risible. The denier charge relies on two things: 1) an anti-Semitic assumption and 2) stunning unfamiliarity with the research field.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:04 am

I started reading “A Lethal Obsession: Anti-Semitism from Antiquity to the Global Jihad.” I will add things as I see them. The author does bring up HD and some familiar anti-Israel tropes.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:49 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:04 am
I started reading “A Lethal Obsession: Anti-Semitism from Antiquity to the Global Jihad.” I will add things as I see them. The author does bring up HD and some familiar anti-Israel tropes.

About three chapters in. It’s interesting, the author worked his way through ancient and Medieval forms of antisemitism. Right now the focus is on 19th century antisemitism.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951