The Monstrous Challenge

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Jeffk 1970
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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:30 pm

Monstrous wrote:Do the Believers not understand how silly their position is?
Do you understand how ridiculous you are?
Monstrous wrote: German officers, famous for their discipline and hardcore following of the slightest rule, starting to commit mass killings of civilians without any orders?
Do you understand anything about what the Einsatzgruppen were or what they did?

Monstrous wrote: Babi Yar is, according to the Believers, a genocidal mass killing of all the Jews in particular area, committed for no reason and without any order from Hitler to do so?
Did you read what Stat Mech posted?
Monstrous wrote: The only position that makes some sense is the Nuremberg show trial story that there was in fact a secret genocidal Hitler order but the Believers have apparently been forced to abandon this claim.
:lol:
:lol:
Monstrous wrote: Leaving them in an utterly absurd position...
You know, I have to give you credit for trying. You at least try, even if you fall flat on your face.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:36 pm

Nessie wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I have to say that Nessie's list is, er, odd. At best.

.....
Sorry for not meeting your exacting standards, prick.
LOL

Your list wasn't any good. I've explained why in general upthread. You won't prove a thing one document by one document. And I want to dissociate myself from the particular list you gave, so I did.

Getting testy doesn't make your response any better.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Monstrous » Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:36 pm

Testimonies... There are so many contradictory, absurd, and obviously invented stories that they are of little value...

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndvalue.html#ftnref355
http://www.cwporter.com/partone.htm
http://exposing-the-holocaust-hoax-arch ... 20Holohoax
http://balder.org/judea/The-Most-Fantas ... racles.php

The Believer position is still utterly absurd and implausible as explained above.

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Monstrous » Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:39 pm

But hey, the Believers believe in UFOs and alien abductions, right?

Lots of testimonies on UFOs and alien abductions...

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:41 pm

Monstrous wrote:But hey, the Believers believe in UFOs and alien abductions, right?

Lots of testimonies on UFOs and alien abductions...
I thought that was Mary.....
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

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https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:44 pm

Monstrous wrote:Do the Believers not understand how silly their position is?

German officers, famous for their discipline and hardcore following of the slightest rule, starting to commit mass killings of civilians without any orders?
Well, you've not read your WWII military history - but, that aside, we've detailed to you the orders by which the first killings of the Jews in the occupied USSR took place. I'm not going to link to the exact spots but recently the orders were discussed in the EG thread and the Cesarani on T4 and Tannenberg thread.
Monstrous wrote:Babi Yar is, according to the Believers, a genocidal mass killing of all the Jews in particular area, committed for no reason and without any order from Hitler to do so?[/quotee]
No, the reasons had to do with making the Kiev area Judernrein as well as the paranoid association of Jews with opposition to the Germans and thus security matters. We've also been over this.
Monstrous wrote:The only position that makes some sense is the Nuremberg show trial story that there was in fact a secret genocidal Hitler order but the Believers have apparently been forced to abandon this claim.

Leaving them in an utterly absurd position...
Separate matters. There are a number of detailed works on the fallacy you're peddling - but you raised Babi Yar. Now you're confronted with evidence for the mass murder there. And your only response is to say that Hitler didn't order it so it didn't happen? Astonishing. You better deal with the evidence in favor of the mass murder . . . the longer you leave it untouched, your position looks worse and worse.
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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Denying-History » Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:55 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:But hey, the Believers believe in UFOs and alien abductions, right?

Lots of testimonies on UFOs and alien abductions...
I thought that was Mary.....
Yep... Which shows how much Monstrous cares for honesty.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:02 pm

Monstrous:

1) Where did Hilberg write or speak about "telepathy"?
2) Nothing to say about the key evidence for Babi Yar posted by Nick Terry?

Come on. Stop being such a baby.
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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:12 am

Nessie wrote:
Monstrous wrote:Metapedia has not shown anything that refutes the 1-5 I have listed. I win.
Monstrous, if you did something more than post links to Metapedia, a conversation between Nessie and you might break out unexpectedly. I mean something more than, "I win," "No, I win," "No way, I win." Who knows - if you guys actually had a discussion people here could read, my mind could be changed about Nessie's list. As it is, competing but empty claims of who wins are really useless.
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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Denying-History » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:28 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Monstrous wrote:Metapedia has not shown anything that refutes the 1-5 I have listed. I win.
Monstrous, if you did something more than post links to Metapedia, a conversation between Nessie and you might break out unexpectedly. I mean something more than, "I win," "No, I win," "No way, I win." Who knows - if you guys actually had a discussion people here could read, my mind could be changed about Nessie's list. As it is, competing but empty claims of who wins are really useless.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... %20himself

I'm sure you already know this.... Just like everyone else does.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Xcalibur » Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:28 am

Really, CW Porter... :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Denying-History » Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:10 am

Monstrous wrote:Testimonies... There are so many contradictory, absurd, and obviously invented stories that they are of little value...

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndvalue.html#ftnref355
http://www.cwporter.com/partone.htm
http://exposing-the-holocaust-hoax-arch ... 20Holohoax
http://balder.org/judea/The-Most-Fantas ... racles.php

The Believer position is still utterly absurd and implausible as explained above.
As we see above, Monsterous proves he cannot think for himself.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 88127.html

The following perpetrator cannot be trusted for what reason? Apparently because of:

1) Things he never described.

2) Porter

3) A eyewitness describing fire coming from a chimney. Something which happens with older crematoriums know as a candle. Something which Mattogno links to Soot build up in the chimney. I am pretty sure you get the idea.

4) Because of a witness recalling human soap and lampshades. Something that the witness provided did not say.

Your argument is purely laughable, considering non of these things retort what he said. He in fact described the capacity of Krema 1 rather accurately.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Xcalibur » Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:37 am

CW Porter... seriously?

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:01 pm

Xcalibur wrote:CW Porter... seriously?

I know, right?

I once skimmed through one of books and came across his take on gas vans. What I found made me laugh hysterically. I think I have it somewhere, I'll try and track it down.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

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https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:09 pm

There's another point. It's incredibly rude for Monstrous to copy links, expect readers to go through them to find the relevant portion, and intuit somehow what it is that Monstrous takes from that. As for me, no mas. If our slow cousin refuses to explain himself, it's all the same to me. And he must realize that those he's trying to convince won't be convinced without explanation. (Ok, or with explanation of the sort we've seen him provide . . . but the point is still valid!)
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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Monstrous » Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:08 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:D
No, the reasons had to do with making the Kiev area Judernrein as well as the paranoid association of Jews with opposition to the Germans and thus security matters. We've also been over this.
Monstrous knows better.

Monstrous knows there was no general genocidal order of all Jews.

That would be the discredited Hitler order that even the Believers unwisely no longer claim.

True, some limited groups of Jew should or could be killed, like communists and partisans. Possibly also moving all Jews to ghettos. But not killing alll Jews.

So the Believers must argue that the infamously super-by-the-book Germans officers would start to disobey their orders and their superiors and start to generally kill all Jews.

Monstrous has really found a weak spot here!

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:19 pm

Monstrous wrote:Monstrous knows there was no general genocidal order of all Jews.
Of course, that's not only irrelevant to the quality of evidence for mass murder of Jews, but it is off topic to the discussion you began as well: we are discussing, as an example of quality evidence, what happened in Kiev and at Babi Yar and how we know, not how general Nazi Jewish policy developed and was communicated.
Monstrous wrote:That would be the discredited Hitler order that even the Believers unwisely no longer claim.
"Believers no longer"? You really are dumb.
Monstrous wrote:True, some limited groups of Jew should or could be killed
Limited to about 5.2 million Jews, ok.
Monstrous wrote:like communists and partisans. Possibly also moving all Jews to ghettos. But not killing alll Jews.
We've shown you in the EG thread, over and over, that Jews were killed as Jews, en masse, not as partisans. E.g., just a couple days ago in this post. Ignoring evidence whilst repeating discredited claims is the only strategy you have left in this forum.
Monstrous wrote:So the Believers must argue that the infamously super-by-the-book Germans officers would start to disobey their orders and their superiors and start to generally kill all Jews.
What order did your supposedly obedient Germans disobey? Please cite pertinent documents.
Monstrous wrote:Monstrous has really found a weak spot here!
The only weak spot here is in your head. I'm so happy for you that you finally found it.

You have to change the subject - which was evidence of mass murder - to German orders and policymaking, which you also seem clueless about. But I want to stick to the OP - evidence for mass murder of Jews. You are still ignoring the evidence for the murder of over 30,000 Jews at Babi Yar in September 1941. Your turn.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:30 pm

So how are you coming replying to requests for

- your source for Hilberg saying "telepathy"
- your analysis of the Babi Yar sources Nick Terry posted in the EG thread

Got nothing eh?
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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:51 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:So how are you coming replying to requests for

- your source for Hilberg saying "telepathy"
- your analysis of the Babi Yar sources Nick Terry posted in the EG thread

Got nothing eh?
From the transcript of the first Zundel trial, (page 848) Hilberg is testifying under oath, answering questions put to him by Doug Christie

Q. Now, you earlier were asked about an article by Avery Fisher Hall called, "The Holocaust in Perspective", and I now produce and show it to you. It says, "Panelist, Raul Hilberg, a Professor, ponders the question of the Holocaust."

A. It is a question asked by the audience. I was listening.

Q. I am talking about you and reading this, aren't I? You are the man in the article?

A. But please read what it says there.

Q. I will just ask you if this is accurate as to what you said. Maybe I should read it right in your presence so we don't make any mistakes. I have highlighted the part that I want to read to you and ask you if you said this, and if it is true. Right there: "If one looks at origins one may go back through the centuries into antiquity to discover the building blocks of destruction of the European Jews." Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. "Hilberg said, "but what began in 1941 was a process of destruction not planned to advance." Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. "Not organized centrally by any agency." Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. "There was no blueprint." Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. "There was no budget for destructive measures." Correct?
A. Correct.

Q. "They were taken step by step, one step at a time." Correct?
A. Correct.

Q. "Thus came about not so much" and then it goes over to the next page, " .•.. not so much a plan being carried out, but an incredible meeting of minds, a consensus, mind reading by a far flung bureaucracy." Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. You said that, didn't you?
A. I said that. I said nothing about any order not existing.

From Wikipedia:

Mind reading may refer to:

Telepathy, the transfer of information between individuals by means other than the five senses
The illusion of telepathy in the performing art of mentalism
Thought identification, the use of neuroimaging techniques to read human minds
In cognitive-behavioral therapy, mind-reading is considered a common cognitive distortion or cognitive error that usually contributes to irrational thinking. The concept runs counter to evolutionary psychology.

So you're right. Hilberg didn't say telepathy. He said mind-reading. Maybe Hilberg meant that the government of the Third Reich used the illusion of telepathy in carrying out the Holocaust? Maybe Hilberg meant that the Nazis employed neuroimaging techniques to communicate with each other. Maybe Hilberg meant that the Nazis employed cognitive distortion that contributed to irrational thinking. Because the Holocaust was nothing if it wasn't irrational.

So Monstrous owes you an apology. Hilberg didn't say they used telepathy. He said they read each others minds.
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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:01 pm

So Hilberg didn't say "telepathy" but Faurisson (and now you) took a phrase out of context to make that charge. That wasn't so hard. One only wonders why Monstrous couldn't reply. Oh well. Thanks.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:04 pm

So, let's see.

Hilberg, a respected author of "The Destruction of the European Jews," writes something in passing that a defense attorney uses against him.
Shocking.

I don't blame Doug Christie for doing his job....after all, he's paid to either minimize the damage or get an acquittal....but to make this a basis for Holocaust denial is ridiculous.

I've never really studied the Zundel Trials. I've never read the transcripts of the trials and I never will. Deniers harp on it a great deal but in the end it really means nothing. The courts convicted him, twice, but in the end those convictions were overturned by technicalities. In the end the Germans got him for violating their laws.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:13 pm

Both of them are well aware of the {!#%@} they tried pulling here.

A colleague of mine has a paper coming out on the Zündel trial - I will send you a link when it's published.
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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:18 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Both of them are well aware of the {!#%@} they tried pulling here.

A colleague of mine has a paper coming out on the Zündel trial - I will send you a link when it's published.
Great! I'll be interested when it comes out.

My knowledge of it comes from Wikipedia and Nizkor.

One of the more amusing canards that deniers pull out is that the Zundel Trials were the first trials where Holocaust survivors were actually questioned in a hostile way..forgetting the various trials that occurred regarding Kapos, the West German trials, Austrian Trials, etc.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

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https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by NathanC » Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:14 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Both of them are well aware of the {!#%@} they tried pulling here.

A colleague of mine has a paper coming out on the Zündel trial - I will send you a link when it's published.
Great! I'll be interested when it comes out.

My knowledge of it comes from Wikipedia and Nizkor.

One of the more amusing canards that deniers pull out is that the Zundel Trials were the first trials where Holocaust survivors were actually questioned in a hostile way..forgetting the various trials that occurred regarding Kapos, the West German trials, Austrian Trials, etc.
They avoid honestly discussing the West German trials because doing so would mean acknowledging the prominent role Ex Nazis had in shaping and manipulating the courts and the law in their favour, and how the courts by and large still admitted the Holocaust despite being ridiculuously skewed in the defendants' favor. They know that actually studying these trials in any honest form would mean admitting that the "case" and fundamental assumption behind Denial is false.

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:22 am

Monstrous, far be it from me to intrude on your... um, lacuna, but in regard to this
Monstrous wrote:...Possibly also moving all Jews to ghettos. But not killing alll Jews.
Can you tell us what happened to those ghettos and, especially, their inhabitants? Let's make it easy and ask about little old Łódź ghetto. And if that doesn't ring a bell, how about those who peopled the somewhat more prominent Warsaw ghetto?
.
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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:20 pm

Monstrous,

OK, we resolved the Hilberg thing. You lied, based on a distortion told by Faurisson and repeated by Mary Q. Thanks to Mary Q for manning up.

So now you need to

1. deal with the evidence in Nick Terry's post showing mass murder at Babi Yar
2. answer scrmbldggs' question about what happened to ghettos and inmates of them
3. respond to evidence showing that German killing of Jews in the occupied east targeted whole communities, not partisans or opponents
4. cite for us the order you claim was ignored by German units (ones murdering Jews) in the east

Over to you, little pal!

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Monstrous » Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:35 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Monstrous, far be it from me to intrude on your... um, lacuna, but in regard to this
Monstrous wrote:...Possibly also moving all Jews to ghettos. But not killing alll Jews.
Can you tell us what happened to those ghettos and, especially, their inhabitants? Let's make it easy and ask about little old Łódź ghetto. And if that doesn't ring a bell, how about those who peopled the somewhat more prominent Warsaw ghetto?
Infamous Believer chorus line:
"-Where did they go?"
"-Where did they go?"
"-Where did they go?"
...

Well, Monstrous checked with Wikipedia on the ghettos. So they were sent to concentration camps.

Monstrous also checked with Metapedia. Real skeptics (revisionists) think that Jews were sent to the East were some died due to starvation and other war related causes while others after the war scattered across the globe.

Many ended up in Israel, ethnically cleansing the Palestinians in order to expand the Jewsh Lebensraum.

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:44 pm

Monstrous wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Monstrous, far be it from me to intrude on your... um, lacuna, but in regard to this
Monstrous wrote:...Possibly also moving all Jews to ghettos. But not killing alll Jews.
Can you tell us what happened to those ghettos and, especially, their inhabitants? Let's make it easy and ask about little old Łódź ghetto. And if that doesn't ring a bell, how about those who peopled the somewhat more prominent Warsaw ghetto?
Infamous Believer chorus line:
"-Where did they go?"
"-Where did they go?"
"-Where did they go?"
...
But that's not what scrmbldggs asked you. You said that Jews were sent to ghettos. Scrmbldggs simply asked "what happened to those ghettos and, especially, their inhabitants."
Monstrous wrote:Well, Monstrous checked with Wikipedia on the ghettos. So they were sent to concentration camps.
Citation please. For Łódź, Warsaw, Vilnius, Minsk, Bialystok, Riga, Kaunas, Lublin, Lwow, and, oh why not Izbica. Tell us approximately how many inmates of each of these ghettos went to which KLs.

I agree with scrmbldggs, please start by telling us about Łódź and Warsaw (Eric Hunt has been asking about Warsaw, btw).
Monstrous wrote:Monstrous also checked with Metapedia. Real skeptics (revisionists) think that Jews were sent to the East were some died due to starvation and other war related causes while others after the war scattered across the globe.
Have "real skeptics" finally come up with some evidence for what they like to think? Do share it with us. At last.
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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Monstrous » Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:51 pm

On the non-genocidal orders to the EG, Monstrous found this:

"The tasks of the Einsatzgruppen were clearly laid out in an order by Heydrich, the chief of the Security Police and the Security Service, dated July 2, 1941, I said. This order specified that the only ones to be executed in the occupied Soviet territories as Jews were Jews in [Communist] Party and [Soviet] government positions." It also ordered the executions of "other radical elements (saboteurs, propagandists, snipers, assassins, inciters, etc.)" as well as high-level, middle-level Communist officials along with radical lower-level Communist officials. When I mentioned that this document had only come to light in recent years, Jews in the back of the courtroom expressed audible skepticism that such an order ever really existed. So I quickly added that it has appeared in several works, including Documents on the Holocaust, published by the Israeli government's Yad Vashem center in 1981. The courtroom crowd seemed struck by this citation.

The basic German policy towards the Jews in the Soviet territories is also laid out in the "Guidelines for the Handling of the Jewish Question." (Nuremberg document 212-PS.) There is no mention of extermination, but instead this Security Police directive emphasized the importance of putting Jews to work, and specifically refers to the Peaceful solution of the Jewish question."
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v09/v09p389_weber.html

Despite this, the infamously by-the-book German officers are supposed to on their own initiative to have started genocidal killings of all Jews? Defies belief!

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:54 pm

Monstrous, you've been cited the Heydrich orders countless times. You posted, "So the Believers must argue that the infamously super-by-the-book Germans officers would start to disobey their orders." What order did they disobey - an order stating that they were not to murder Jews?

I ask because on 2 July 1941 Heydrich singled out certain Jews for execution (those in party and state employment). Further, in the EG thread, we traced in depth how one unit, EK-9, expanded on original orders, receiving new orders in July, and began wiping out entire Jewish communities. This post summarizes the instructions. And this post summarizes parallel instructions to EG leaders in Ukraine. Reprimands, needless to say, were not issued when large numbers of Jews were murdered in the Baltics and Ukraine, etc.

In general, German units reported, and we've discussed previously, on their accomplishments in killing large numbers of Jews (e.g., EG reports, Jäger report, others - see below). These reports re-state instructions and explain how they were carried out. Here is one example, report no. 111, which unfortunately for your case states that following under German instructions Estonian Jews were being killed and only 500-600 would remain alive and that Estonia would be "free from Jews"; the use of Estonians and stirring up of local action against Jews in fact were in keeping with orders given the RGs. The report also said that
The principal targets of execution by the Einsatzkommandos will be: political functionaries, ...Jews mistakenly released from POW camps, ...Jewish sadists and avengers, ...Jews in general...
This report, like others, was received at Gestapo headquarters in Berlin and circulated to various officials and departments. The report shows that commanders in the field understood their instructions.

Also as a point of interest in this regard, in a report from Ukraine dated 2 December 1941, from the Wehrmacht Armament Inspector Ukraine, we can read the following:
The great masses executed make this action more gigantic than any similar measure taken so far in the Soviet Union. So far about 150000-200000 Jews may have been executed in the part of the Ukraine belonging to the Reichskommissariat [RK]; no consideration was given to the interests of economy.

Summarizing it can be said that the kind of solution of the Jewish problem applied in the Ukraine which obviously was based on the ideological theories as a matter of principle had the following results:

a. Elimination of a part of partly superfluous eaters in the cities.

b. Elimination of a part of the population which hated us undoubtedly.

c. Elimination of badly needed tradesmen who were in many instances indispensable even in the interests of the armed forces.

d. Consequences as to foreign policy -- propaganda which are obvious.

e. Bad effects on the troops which in any case get indirect contact with the executions.

f. Brutalizing effect on the formations which carry out the executions -- regular police (Ordnungspolizei).
Please explain how orders were disobeyed here. (The death toll in this report was a snapshot up to fall 1941; by war's end far more Jews in Ukraine had been murdered.)

The open question is the lengths you will go to in order to avoid having to respond to the evidence for the Babi Yar massacre (and now a number of other questions your posts have raised).
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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Monstrous » Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:22 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Monstrous, you've been cited the Heydrich orders countless times. You posted, "So the Believers must argue that the infamously super-by-the-book Germans officers would start to disobey their orders." What order did they disobey - an order stating that they were not to murder Jews?

I ask because on 2 July 1941 Heydrich singled out certain Jews for execution (those in party and state employment). Further, in the EG thread, we traced in depth how one unit, EK-9, expanded on original orders, receiving new orders in July, and began wiping out entire Jewish communities. This post summarizes the instructions. And this post summarizes parallel instructions to EG leaders in Ukraine. Reprimands, needless to say, were not issued when large numbers of Jews were murdered in the Baltics and Ukraine, etc.

In general, German units reported, and we've discussed previously, on their accomplishments in killing large numbers of Jews (e.g., EG reports, Jäger report, others - see below). These reports re-state instructions and explain how they were carried out. Here is one example, report no. 111, which unfortunately for your case states that following under German instructions Estonian Jews were being killed and only 500-600 would remain alive and that Estonia would be "free from Jews"; the use of Estonians and stirring up of local action against Jews in fact were in keeping with orders given the RGs. The report also said that
The principal targets of execution by the Einsatzkommandos will be: political functionaries, ...Jews mistakenly released from POW camps, ...Jewish sadists and avengers, ...Jews in general...
This report, like others, was received at Gestapo headquarters in Berlin and circulated to various officials and departments. The report shows that commanders in the field understood their instructions.

Also as a point of interest in this regard, in a report from Ukraine dated 2 December 1941, from the Wehrmacht Armament Inspector Ukraine, we can read the following:
The great masses executed make this action more gigantic than any similar measure taken so far in the Soviet Union. So far about 150000-200000 Jews may have been executed in the part of the Ukraine belonging to the Reichskommissariat [RK]; no consideration was given to the interests of economy.

Summarizing it can be said that the kind of solution of the Jewish problem applied in the Ukraine which obviously was based on the ideological theories as a matter of principle had the following results:

a. Elimination of a part of partly superfluous eaters in the cities.

b. Elimination of a part of the population which hated us undoubtedly.

c. Elimination of badly needed tradesmen who were in many instances indispensable even in the interests of the armed forces.

d. Consequences as to foreign policy -- propaganda which are obvious.

e. Bad effects on the troops which in any case get indirect contact with the executions.

f. Brutalizing effect on the formations which carry out the executions -- regular police (Ordnungspolizei).
Please explain how orders were disobeyed here. (The death toll in this report was a snapshot up to fall 1941; by war's end far more Jews in Ukraine had been murdered.)

The open question is the lengths you will go to in order to avoid having to respond to the evidence for the Babi Yar massacre (and now a number of other questions your posts have raised).
You have presented no evidence for the existence of superior orders to genocide Jews generally. Except self-serving and valueless claims by post-war "confessors" who angled for leniency by making such claims.

The EG reports are of highly dubious authenticity. Especially the Jaeger report published the Soviet Communists long after the war. "50 copies" of "Top Secret" reports making war crimes confessions? Really? What happened to the supposed extreme secrecy regarding the Holocaust, in other cases supposedly always hidden with oral only orders and code words?

If authentic, they mean, again that German officers, completely implausibly, started doing genocidal killings despite having no orders to do so.

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:44 pm

>> evidence for superior orders

Sure I have presented evidence of orders to kill Jews. I have no idea - nor do you - what "genocide the Jews generally means." Let's not go back through the definition of genocide again. Which is beside the point of this discussion - evidence for mass murder of Jews at Babi Yar, which evidence you keep ignoring in the hopes you can change the topic.

>> confessions and testimony

I've presented mostly documents. And not only EG reports, which btw have been shown to be authentic in your EG thread, you know, the thread which you fled when you couldn't provide evidence to back your claims to the contrary. Even you should know however that a Wehrmacht report is not an EG report. Your ability to conjure confessions from a number of wartime documents is, er, a tour de force.

>> orders

I have of course shown orders to kill Jews as Jews and also reports to Berlin on how such orders were carried out; you've failed to produce any order that was disobeyed, as you claimed was the case, when German units massacred Jews in the occupied territories.

Can't deal with Babi Yar evidence, eh?
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:45 pm

Monstrous' dodge noted. Actually, make that "continuous dodging"...
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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:53 pm

Ghettos, Monstrous. C'mon. Stop being so chicken. Answer what you've been asked. You're as bad a coward as Gerdes.
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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:59 pm

Monstrous wrote: Monstrous also checked with Metapedia. Real skeptics (revisionists) think that Jews were sent to the East were some died due to starvation and other war related causes while others after the war scattered across the globe.
The key word is "think," as in, "we're guessing because we really don't know. This is the only thing we came up with that makes some sense and we hope that people don't really look too deeply in this."

The problem is that it matches no known reality. During the mass killings at the Reinhard Camps in 1942 (deniers say these were transports to the "East") food was the issue so Germany demanded more food from its conquered areas, including the USSR where these alleged "transports" went. Deniers want us to believe that the Germans sent those Jews "transited" into areas with a severe food deficit. So they could starve to death instead of being gassed to death.

The Hungarian deportations in 1944 to Auschwitz? Where did they go? No more "East" to send them to and the majority did not wind up in other camps.

Try a little harder, Monstrous.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:00 pm

Guys, I think our little Wikipedia warrior really doesn't know better. Having strayed here, the poor kid must be near a stroke by now...
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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:04 pm

Monstrous, did Tazka lure you here, or are you one and the same?
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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:06 pm

By my reckoning Monstrous has to come up with something like 2.5 million Jews in the KLs by 1943-1944. This should be interesting ...
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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:11 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:By my reckoning Monstrous has to come up with something like 2.5 million Jews in the KLs by 1943-1944. This should be interesting ...

Yeah, I suspect we'll see more "thinking" (guessing).
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:25 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:By my reckoning Monstrous has to come up with something like 2.5 million Jews in the KLs by 1943-1944. This should be interesting ...

Yeah, I suspect we'll see more "thinking" (guessing).
Offtopic, but kinda fitting...
We are not living in a 'post-truth' world, we are living the lies of others
Nigel Farage is not a Nazi and nor is Donald Trump. But what is terrifying – and deeply akin to fascism – is our ability to ‘think’ our way from truth into lies
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=27681&p=550866#p550866
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