The Monstrous Challenge

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Jeffk 1970
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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:09 pm

Poland? Neutral?
Poland was allied to the British and French...
Good lord.
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/10 ... 24832?s=21

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:15 pm

LOL yeah that little problem, but, you see, the "Allies" invaded Poland . . . which started the world war . . .
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:02 am

Monstrous wrote:Hitler was most likely very keenly interested in "The Jewish Question".
Btw reports on the activities of the Einsatzgruppen, with their clear statements of extermination of Jews in support of a solution of the Jewish problem, were sent to the Führer among a long list of other Nazi big-wigs. According to Gestapo Müller who sent a radio message reading in part, “Regular reports on the work of the Einsatzgruppen in the east are to be sent to the Führer.” Longerich, Himmler, p 530
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:53 am

Let's flesh this out a bit more, with some additional points added in red:

3 March 1941: Hitler to Jodl on directive no. 21 stressing that “The Jewish-Bolshevik intelligentsia . . . must be eliminated” in the coming war against the USSR (identifying Jews with the Soviet intelligentsia and elite)

13 March 1941: Jodl issues directive on “special responsibilities on behalf of the Führer” assigned to RFSS in the “struggle . . . between two opposing political systems,” to prepare for political rule over USSR

17 March 1941: Hitler to army leaders that “the most brutal force is necessary” to undo the “intelligentsia” in the USSR

26 March 1941: Heydrich note on meeting with Göring on solution to Jewish question saying that Göring had requested a short memo "on the threat of the GPU apparatus , the political commissars, Jews, etc so they basically know who to stand against the wall"; Heydrich was also instructed to include a change in Rosenberg's responsibilities in this regard

30 March 1941: Hitler to generals that the war will be a “judgment about Bolshevism . . . We are talking about a war of extermination” of the commissars and intelligentsia

13 May 1941: Barbarossa Jurisdiction Decree removing soldiers who committed crimes against civilians from jurisdiction of military courts

19 May 1941: Guidelines for the Behavior of the Troops in Russia required “drastic and energetic measures against Bolshevik agitators, guerrillas, saboteurs and Jews” (and Jews!)

spring 1941: Rosenberg states early guidelines on propaganda for invasion of Soviet Union calling for press to emphasize that USSR is under "a group of Jewish criminal despots" and that local actions ("free rein") against Jews will be necessary to solving Jewish question in east; "the German army comes as a liberator from Bolshevism and from Jewry' by means of "large-scale Jewish pogroms and murders of Communist functionaries"

21 May 1941: to carry out assigned tasks, Himmler subordinated EGs to HSSPFs

11-14 June 1941: Himmler meeting at Wewelsburg with SS leadership and HSSPFs for east, discussion of demographic reordering in east with expectation of 30 million deaths among Russians (building on Wehrmacht meeting of 2 May projecting "x millions" of deaths in the region due to occupation; also late May "many tens of millions" - context: Hunger Plan)

17 June 1941: Heydrich briefing of EG leaders in Berlin, also at Pretzsch - no written records but orders summarized in written orders of 29 June and 2 july below


29 June 1941: Heydrich order to heads of EG and RSHA officials instructing that German commanders secretly instigate “self-cleansing efforts by anti-Communist or anti-Jewish groups in the area to be occupied”

30 June 1941: Heydrich and Himmler visited Grodno and ordered EG-B “to intensify” killing operations (return visit on 9 July confirmed that EG-B had complied)

2 July 1941: Heydrich reiterated instruction regarding self-cleansing efforts (pogroms) and identified which people should be “executed” including as noted “Jews in party and state positions”; the list concluded with “etc”; statement on murder of Jewish elite left loosely defined and without a limit – why mention Jews at all if they do not form a special target with special permissions being granted?

30 July 1941: Himmler visit to Baranovichi, order “All Jews must be shot. Jewish women to be driven into the marshes” (Pripet) (written order supplementing oral orders of the period, to SS Calvary Brigade) (note: "all Jews" - men - in keeping with expansive early verbiage but clarifying the upper limit)

15 August 1941: Himmler visit to Minsk, discussion of widening victims to include Jewish women and children (Himmler diary entry on this is “partisans and Jews”)

5 September 1941: Rosenberg record of meeting with Lohse on experience gathered in Ostland; notes 10,000 Jews executed - in context of solving the Jewish question - by "the Lithuanian population," confirming implementation of Heydrich's self-cleansing order; Rosenberg's diary summary for late 1941 recorded his being informed of such executions as early as 3 July 1941
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:56 am

Monstrous? Hello???

Crap, he probably took a powder again. Or worse, desperately scrambling to find answers in Metapedia. Or CODOH.
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/10 ... 24832?s=21

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:14 am

Oops, I kept posting about policy and decision-making . . . LOL . . . no more! LOL
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Xcalibur » Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:25 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Monstrous? Hello???

Crap, he probably took a powder again. Or worse, desperately scrambling to find answers in Metapedia. Or CODOH.
"David" stopped in here tonight and disappeared into the nacht und nebel...

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:32 am

Well if David checks in here, I apologize for playing along with Monstrous on his tangents and distractors. What we're really doing here is discussing evidence for what we think about the extermination of the Jews and focusing at this point on

1. the evidence in Nick Terry's post showing mass murder at Babi Yar
2. what happened to ghettos and inmates of them - and Monstrous's claim that Jews mainly went into KLs during '42-'43
3. evidence showing that German killing of Jews in the occupied east targeted whole communities, not partisans or opponents
4. the order Monstrous claims was ignored by German units (ones murdering Jews) in the east

David should realize that Monstrous got caught lying about Hilberg and doesn't seem to want to discuss the issues above, which he raised. This thread could use David's clear thinking and ability to stick to the point. LOL.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:33 am

Xcalibur wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:Monstrous? Hello???

Crap, he probably took a powder again. Or worse, desperately scrambling to find answers in Metapedia. Or CODOH.
"David" stopped in here tonight and disappeared into the nacht und nebel...
see viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26235&p=551335#p551332
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by NathanC » Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:09 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:On the Soviet Holocaust Denialism fallacy:
As stated previously, the Soviet may had an interest in making Jews and Slavs equal victims. That did not mean that they engaged in Jewish Holocaust denial. If they did, they would not have accepted the conclusions of Holocaust show trials such as the iMT. Or allowed Jews to travel to other Holocaust trials in the West as witnesses. Or published the Jaeger report.

The Soviets faked both the Jewish and Slavish Holohoaxes equally...
How was the IMT a Holocaust show trial?

What would the motivation of the Soviets be to fake the Holocaust?
1) They did not "make Jews and Slavs equal victims". They erased the Jewish victims and pretended that they were slavs. Monstrous doesn't get it and doesn't want to get it because this shows that Holocaust denial and "soviet forging" never happened.

2) They did not "accept" the conclusions of the IMT. They did, after all, introduce the claim that Katyn was committed by the Germans. They also tried to peddle "do not divide the dead" and identified the victims of Auschwitz "citizens of various countries" rather than Jews.

3) The Jager report is direct evidence of German criminality against the Jews. The Soviets did not present it at the IMT precisely because it contradicted their narrative and was not a forgery.

Monstrous talking {!#%@} out of his ass as usual.

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:12 am

Monstrous keeps posting that the Reds "published" the Jäger report but hasn't provided a citation to where.
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Xcalibur » Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:54 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Monstrous keeps posting that the Reds "published" the Jäger report but hasn't provided a citation to where.
Because there isn't.

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:15 pm

Uh oh, who saw that coming - d'ya think Monstrous knows? :)
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Monstrous » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:38 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Monstrous keeps posting that the Reds "published" the Jäger report but hasn't provided a citation to where.
Monstrous thought that the Believers could do a basic Wikipedia search:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaeger_Report

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:49 pm

Oh, I see, when you wrote that the Soviets published the Jäger report, you meant that Lithuanians published it, and when you put this in the context of Soviet postwar views of the genocide of the Jews (IMT etc), you actually meant 20 years after this period, the one we've been discussing - and 6 years after Jäger's suicide. How could I have missed that?
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:49 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Monstrous keeps posting that the Reds "published" the Jäger report but hasn't provided a citation to where.
Monstrous thought that the Believers could do a basic Wikipedia search:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaeger_Report
And?
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/10 ... 24832?s=21

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Monstrous » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:51 pm

NathanC wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:On the Soviet Holocaust Denialism fallacy:
As stated previously, the Soviet may had an interest in making Jews and Slavs equal victims. That did not mean that they engaged in Jewish Holocaust denial. If they did, they would not have accepted the conclusions of Holocaust show trials such as the iMT. Or allowed Jews to travel to other Holocaust trials in the West as witnesses. Or published the Jaeger report.

The Soviets faked both the Jewish and Slavish Holohoaxes equally...
How was the IMT a Holocaust show trial?

What would the motivation of the Soviets be to fake the Holocaust?
1) They did not "make Jews and Slavs equal victims". They erased the Jewish victims and pretended that they were slavs. Monstrous doesn't get it and doesn't want to get it because this shows that Holocaust denial and "soviet forging" never happened.

2) They did not "accept" the conclusions of the IMT. They did, after all, introduce the claim that Katyn was committed by the Germans. They also tried to peddle "do not divide the dead" and identified the victims of Auschwitz "citizens of various countries" rather than Jews.

3) The Jager report is direct evidence of German criminality against the Jews. The Soviets did not present it at the IMT precisely because it contradicted their narrative and was not a forgery.

Monstrous talking {!#%@} out of his ass as usual.
Erased the Jews! Then there would only be five million dead instead of eleven!

"Do not divide the dead" does not equal "erase the Jews".

Anyway, seems likely that policies varied, right? More pro-Jewish holocaust when the Jewish Anti-Fascist group was active, less so during Stalin later years, more so after his death.

The Soviet Jewish Holocaust Denialism Fallacy is an exceedingly stupid idea. Here are some examples of the Soviets not denying but promoting the Jewish Holocaust:

*Not rejecting the conclusions of the IMT promoting the Jewish Holocaust
*Creating numerous shows trials in puppet Communist countries promoting the Jewish Holocaust
*Publishing documents such as Höss "memoirs" promoting the Jewish Holocaust
*Publishing the Jaeger report promoting the Jewish Holocaust
*Allowing Jews to travel to the West as witnesses in trials such as the Frankfurt Auschwitz trials promoting the Jewish Holocaust.

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:53 pm

Monstrous wrote:
NathanC wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:On the Soviet Holocaust Denialism fallacy:
As stated previously, the Soviet may had an interest in making Jews and Slavs equal victims. That did not mean that they engaged in Jewish Holocaust denial. If they did, they would not have accepted the conclusions of Holocaust show trials such as the iMT. Or allowed Jews to travel to other Holocaust trials in the West as witnesses. Or published the Jaeger report.

The Soviets faked both the Jewish and Slavish Holohoaxes equally...
How was the IMT a Holocaust show trial?

What would the motivation of the Soviets be to fake the Holocaust?
1) They did not "make Jews and Slavs equal victims". They erased the Jewish victims and pretended that they were slavs. Monstrous doesn't get it and doesn't want to get it because this shows that Holocaust denial and "soviet forging" never happened.

2) They did not "accept" the conclusions of the IMT. They did, after all, introduce the claim that Katyn was committed by the Germans. They also tried to peddle "do not divide the dead" and identified the victims of Auschwitz "citizens of various countries" rather than Jews.

3) The Jager report is direct evidence of German criminality against the Jews. The Soviets did not present it at the IMT precisely because it contradicted their narrative and was not a forgery.

Monstrous talking {!#%@} out of his ass as usual.
Erased the Jews! Then there would only be five million dead instead of eleven!

"Do not divide the dead" does not equal "erase the Jews".

Anyway, seems likely that policies varied, right? More pro-Jewish holocaust when the Jewish Anti-Fascist group was active, less so during Stalin later years, more so after his death.

The Soviet Jewish Holocaust Denialism Fallacy is an exceedingly stupid idea. Here are some examples of the Soviets not denying but promoting the Jewish Holocaust:

*Not rejecting the conclusions of the IMT promoting the Jewish Holocaust
*Creating numerous shows trials in puppet Communist countries promoting the Jewish Holocaust
*Publishing documents such as Höss "memoirs" promoting the Jewish Holocaust
*Publishing the Jaeger report promoting the Jewish Holocaust
*Allowing Jews to travel to the West as witnesses in trials such as the Frankfurt Auschwitz trials promoting the Jewish Holocaust.
Snore....
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/10 ... 24832?s=21

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:55 pm

Just his way of saying he has no evidence for Soviet fabrication of Einsatzgruppen reports, the Jäger and Stahlecker reports, or any other documents related to the Holocaust for that matter . . . convoluted and defensive as hell, but a full admission he has no evidence just the same.
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Monstrous » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:56 pm

Monstrous also remember reading this:

"the functionaries at the Auschwitz State Museum and the steering committee of the International Auschwitz Committee were either Communists themselves or beholden to the Communist line on Auschwitz, the Holocaust story, and doubtless much else."

"The Communist-run “International Auschwitz Committee” of Warsaw assisted “Comrade Mermelstein” in his legal fight against the IHR."

http://codoh.com/library/document/2686/

So here we have a Communist puppet organization supporting a Jewish Holocaust! No Communist Jewish Holocaust denial!

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:58 pm

Monstrous, your comments on . . .

1. the evidence in Nick Terry's post showing mass murder at Babi Yar
2. what happened to ghettos and inmates of them - and Monstrous's claim that Jews mainly went into KLs during '42-'43
3. evidence showing that German killing of Jews in the occupied east targeted whole communities, not partisans or opponents
4. the order Monstrous claims was ignored by German units (ones murdering Jews) in the east
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:00 pm

Monstrous wrote:Monstrous also remember reading this:

"the functionaries at the Auschwitz State Museum and the steering committee of the International Auschwitz Committee were either Communists themselves or beholden to the Communist line on Auschwitz, the Holocaust story, and doubtless much else."

"The Communist-run “International Auschwitz Committee” of Warsaw assisted “Comrade Mermelstein” in his legal fight against the IHR."

http://codoh.com/library/document/2686/

So here we have a Communist puppet organization supporting a Jewish Holocaust! No Communist Jewish Holocaust denial!
You deleted the important phrase that begins the first sentence you quoted, "To be sure, in the 1960s and 1970s . . ."

Dishonest little {!#%@}.
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by NathanC » Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:43 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
NathanC wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:On the Soviet Holocaust Denialism fallacy:
As stated previously, the Soviet may had an interest in making Jews and Slavs equal victims. That did not mean that they engaged in Jewish Holocaust denial. If they did, they would not have accepted the conclusions of Holocaust show trials such as the iMT. Or allowed Jews to travel to other Holocaust trials in the West as witnesses. Or published the Jaeger report.

The Soviets faked both the Jewish and Slavish Holohoaxes equally...
How was the IMT a Holocaust show trial?

What would the motivation of the Soviets be to fake the Holocaust?
1) They did not "make Jews and Slavs equal victims". They erased the Jewish victims and pretended that they were slavs. Monstrous doesn't get it and doesn't want to get it because this shows that Holocaust denial and "soviet forging" never happened.

2) They did not "accept" the conclusions of the IMT. They did, after all, introduce the claim that Katyn was committed by the Germans. They also tried to peddle "do not divide the dead" and identified the victims of Auschwitz "citizens of various countries" rather than Jews.

3) The Jager report is direct evidence of German criminality against the Jews. The Soviets did not present it at the IMT precisely because it contradicted their narrative and was not a forgery.

Monstrous talking {!#%@} out of his ass as usual.
Erased the Jews! Then there would only be five million dead instead of eleven!

"Do not divide the dead" does not equal "erase the Jews".

Anyway, seems likely that policies varied, right? More pro-Jewish holocaust when the Jewish Anti-Fascist group was active, less so during Stalin later years, more so after his death.

The Soviet Jewish Holocaust Denialism Fallacy is an exceedingly stupid idea. Here are some examples of the Soviets not denying but promoting the Jewish Holocaust:

*Not rejecting the conclusions of the IMT promoting the Jewish Holocaust
*Creating numerous shows trials in puppet Communist countries promoting the Jewish Holocaust
*Publishing documents such as Höss "memoirs" promoting the Jewish Holocaust
*Publishing the Jaeger report promoting the Jewish Holocaust
*Allowing Jews to travel to the West as witnesses in trials such as the Frankfurt Auschwitz trials promoting the Jewish Holocaust.
Snore....
Do not divide the dead does equal erasing the identity of the Jewish victims. It does not get more direct than editing all references to "Jews" into "peaceful soviet citizens". That is the very definition of erasure, as were the Succeeding Soviet crackdowns on Jewish attempts to commemorate the Babi Yar massacre, which StatMech and I have alluded to earlier. Monstrous can stomp his feet all he wants, but his Soviet Hoax never happened.

Statistical Mechanic already talked about how the Soviet investigative commissions for Majdanek ommitted witness statements identifying the victims as Jews who were killed for being Jews. Most Polish trials of "lesser perpetrators" also focused on crimes against Poles rather than Jews, IIRC. Monstrous is making {!#%@} up when he said that the trials by "puppet communist countries" "promoted" the Holocaust. Just the opposite, as demonstrated.

I forgot to mention, in addition to the Katyn example, the USSR refused to accept the estimate provided by the IMT for the Auschwitz death toll. They insisted that the death toll was 4 Million mostly non Jews/citizens of various countries, while the IMT estimate quoted from Hoess identified 3 million Mostly Jewish victims. More {!#%@} out of the Moron's ass.

As for Hoess, there's no chance that the Soviets coerced Him or edited his memoirs. In addition to attacking the 4 million estimate promoted by the Soviets, Hoess also talked about Soviet POWs committing cannibalism, a direct challenge to the heroic myth of the "Great Patriotic War" still peddled by Modern Russia to this day.

Monstrous fails, again.

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Re: The Monstrous Challenge

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:20 pm

Before Nuremberg, the Soviets held trials in which Soviet citizens were charged for their roles in German mass murder actions at Krasnodar and Kharkov. Alexander Prusin concluded that in these trials, based on the charges and prosecution theory of the case, the state
omitted mention of the Nazi murder of the Jews. Although by 1943 the Holocaust had become common knowledge and the ESC [Soviet Extraordinary State Commission] possessed massive evidence of the scope of the genocide, the tribunals referred to the executions of Jews as "massacres of peaceful Soviet citizens." The indictment in Kharkov referred to the ghettoization of Jews as "forceful resettlement of Soviet citizens" to the outskirts of the city.
Quoting Arad, author Greg Dawson adds,
The charade was dutifully maintained by Molotov in notes he sent to diplomats of friendly nations. In an April 1942 note, Molotov "detailed the murder of 3,000 citizens in Taganrog on October 27, 1941, of 7,000 inhabitants of the Crimean town of Kerch, of 6,000 people in Vitebsk, of 10,000 in Pinsk, of 12,000 in Minsk, and of 14,000 in Kharkov. Nowhere in the note does Molotov mention that the murdered victims were Jews."
Prior to the Kharkov trial, which began in December 1943, Molotov had itemized the "monstrous atrocities" of the Germans during their occupation of the USSR:
Irrefutable facts prove that the regime of plunder and murder against the non-combatant population of towns and villages constitutes not merely excesses of individual German officers and soldiers, but a definite system planned and encouraged by the German government and German High Command. . . .
In April 1942 Molotov would use the formulation that the criminal actions were against "the civilian population . . . towns and villages . . . civilians," prisoners in POW camps, and, vaguely, "national cultures." In July 1943 eleven Soviet collaborators were charged with participation in the massacre at Krasnodar (Ukraine) which had been carried out in 1942. Dawson comments, "there was something unusual about these litanies of Nazi atrocities: the primary victims, Jews, were not mentioned as such. . . . Jews appeared only as 'Soviet citizens' or 'peace-loving citizens' in ESC reports on massacres in Krasnodar, Kharkov" and other sites.

The salient points are these: 1) Soviet authorities were aware of the identity of victims of German mass murder actions, 2) Stalinist ideology stressed the unity of the Soviet peoples and by war's end defense of the motherland, super-patriotism, and a form of nationalism, 3) in keeping with their ideology and perceived national interest, the Soviet state authorities highlighted the "Soviet" and "citizen" aspect of the murders and downplayed (to the point of suppressing) the Jewish character of the anti-Jewish massacres. So now he has no choice but to add to his dishonest readings of the history the notion that the Soviets played up the mass murder of Jews during the German occupation of the Soviet Union.

Monstrous might be better served taking this Soviet minimization of the killing of Jews in the USSR by the Germans as evidence that the actions were not aimed at Jews - he could at least quote some sources, however superficially.* But he's worked himself into a jam with his false claims of Soviet highlighting of the mass murder of Jews and supposed fabrication of evidence to support this.

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* This tactic would bring Monstrous to grief as well, because as detailed in earlier discussions on this and in Dawson's book - while "testimonies [from witnesses to the mass murders] were written down verbatim, and clearly included the word Jews as the main victims[, i]n reports provided by the local commissions . . . the word Jews disappeared gradually, to be replaced by the term Soviet citizens." (quoting Arad again)

Dawson, Judgment Before Nuremberg, pp 263-266, 279-280
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight