Is this really the best there is?

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Monstrous
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Monstrous » Sun May 15, 2016 10:37 am

Monstrous would like to point out that the dodging Believers have still not been able to point out what they consider to be the best evidence.

There are just ominous and nebulous insinuations that it is "out there" (somewhere)...

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun May 15, 2016 1:38 pm

No, it's been explained to you that there for any events there is voluminous evidence not reducible to a few best pieces of evidence. I've posted huge amounts of evidence for some key parts of the Holocaust. Deal with it.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Sun May 15, 2016 4:44 pm

Monstrous wrote:Monstrous would like to point out that the dodging Believers have still not been able to point out what they consider to be the best evidence.

There are just ominous and nebulous insinuations that it is "out there" (somewhere)...
{!#%@} it, I'm posting The List™ again.

Courtesy of Statmech.

a) Deportation

German orders, documents, reports, etc:
Himmler Dienstkalendar for July 1942 (meetings with Globocnik/Krüger, trip to Lublin 18 July)
Himmler 19 July 1942 order to HSSPF Krüger - no Jews to remain in GG by end of 1942 unless in collection camps in five designated cities resulting in 54 temporary"Jewish residential districts" along with camps for reduced Jewish population in GG (Winstone p 159, Longerich, pp 375-376)
Frank's Diensttagebuch for July 1942, quoted in Friedlander v2, p 427
appeal for volunteers to present themselves at Umschlagplatz (Polonsky p 41)
reports of governor of Warsaw district, Fischer (Hilberg v2, p 524, Engelking & Leociak p 712)
deportation order, Engelking & Leociak p 705
Judendat announcement, 5 September 1942, per German orders, Engelking & Leociak p 727 ("the cauldron")
report of Warsaw governer to State Secretary GG for June-July 1942, dated 15 August 1942, cited in Hilberg v2, p 525
German deportation statistics (BZIH 1)
Stroop report
Korherr report
NO-057, NO-064, YVA TR.10/869 on Reinhard headquarters including T-4 personnel (Silberklang)
Höfle personnel file YVA JM/3669 (Silberklang)
Höfle's deportation orders cited in Hilberg v2, p 523, Friedlander vol 2, p 428
organizational issues of deportation, YVA TR.10/813, YVA TR.10/756, cited in Silberklang pp 331-332)
German municipal offices reports on ghetto clearance, utilities, labor (Hilberg, v2, p 526
war diary, Armament Command Warsaw, September 1942 (Hilberg)
various compliance reports made by the Judenrat to the Germans (Hilberg)

Diaries and other contemporary accounts:
S Rembek (Polish nationalist ) in Brenner, The Ethics of Witnessing, pp 149-150
W Hosenfeld - Wehrmacht captain
Najberg
Czerniakow
Lewin
Kaplan
Ringelblum - notebooks
Seidman
Korczak
Mawult (Gombinsksi)
Stok
S Ernest
Sznapman
A Berman
Bryskier
Najberg
Puterman
Staszewska
Remba - in Ringelblum
Katznelson
Wyszynski
I Lichtensztajn
MM Kon
Perle
Opoczynski PH/2-22 and AR II/215
Gorny notes and R II/237
Graber AR II/432
S Gutgeld (?), "The Trans-Settlement" AR II/214
accounts written by shop workers AR II/284 and AR II/289
accounts by 3 rabbis AR II/281
"Fiirst Day of the Deportation 'Action . . .'" AR II/196
"The Days of the 'Trans-Settlement Action'" AR I/1509
"The Destruction of Warsaw" II/198
"The Last Stage of Resettlement Is Death" II/197
half dozen or so further anonymous accounts
see also accounts by Warsaw escapees from Treblinka

Jewish reports and publications during the war:
"The Annihilation of Jewish Warsaw" parts 1 ("Jewish Warsaw Is No More") and 3 ("Some Additional Facts") AR II/192
MM Kon, memorial piece on Rabbi Huberbrand AR II/282
"To the Jewish Masses in the Ghetto," warning notice AR II/333
article in Wiadomosci on liquidation of the Jewish hospital during the deportation, in Blatman, pp 473-476
Bund report published in Oyf der Wkh, 20 September 1942 ("Frydrych mission")

Polish underground
reports of Jewish Affairs Bureau (Wolinski), Bureau of Information and Propaganda, Delegatura, AK High Command, Feiner (to Polish government), and intelligence group
several articles in Biuletyn Informacyjny (some based on information from correspondent Jerzy Grasberg in the ghetto) and in Informacja Biezaca, also articles in AK newspapers Apel, Wiadomosci Polskie, Kronika Tygodniowa, and Niepodleglosc
declaration of civil resistance directorate
PPR newspaper Trybuna Wolnosci
other reports written by Szymanowski quoted in Engelking & Leociak pp 724-725, 728

Postwar eyewitness accounts
Zuckerman (Cukierman)
Mazor
Berg
Edelman
Goldstein
Turkow
Berlinski
Szpilman
B Warm
S Adler
Reich-Ranicki
Tokar-Warsawski (YVA M-2/451

Census and demographic information:
Waldemar Schön, from a Lecture on the Steps Leading to the Establishment of the Warsaw, "The Appearance of the Jewish Quarter," 20 January 1941 (in Arad Holocaust documents)
registration counts - January 1941 ration cards, January 1942 WELZ
order of BuF for 1942 census in GG, 20 January 1942 (Silberklang, p 275)
order from Auerswald to Judenrat for street by street population data in Warsaw ghetto, 29 April 1942 (Hilberg v2, pp 522-523)
Oyneg Shabes population estimate - July 1942 (in Engelking & Leociak).

Other postwar testimonies:
Bor-Komorowski
Michalson interrogations (Silberklang)
Többens interrogation
Platkiewicz

Miscellaneous:
Articles in the Daily Boston Globe, Manchester Guardian, NY Times, etc

Trains to/from Treblinka

German and other documents:
Fahrplananordnungen - cited in Hilberg and in YVA P.26/ 126
Wolff-Ganzenmüller, Krüger-Himmler correspondence
schedules preserved by Zabecki

Wartime eyewitness accounts:
Puterman - anonymous escapee
Buzminsky
see also accounts by Warsaw escapees from Treblinka

Postwar eyewitness accounts:
Zabecki recollections
Stangl interview with Sereny
Lanzmann interview with Suchomel

Destination and murder

Wartime eyewitness ad other contemporary accounts (witnesses from different hometowns):
observations of S Rembek (Polish nationalist ) in Brenner, The Ethics of Witnessing, pp 149-150 - "rumored that in Treblinka, Warsaw Jews have supposedly been finished off")
Krzepicki AR Ii/295 and AR II/299
Nowodworski AR II/296
Rabinowicz - multiple testimonies during September 1942
Wiernik book
Strawczynski
Cymlich
Puterman - anonymous escapee
approximately 10 other Treblinka escapees/survivors
"The Last Stage of Resettlement Is Death" II/197
"Some Information about Treblinka" RII/298
Plotnicka et al, "Last Letter from Bedzin"

Trials:
approximately 20 Jewish Treblinka survivors in Düsseldorf trial
14 SS camp guards interrogated for, giving testimony in Düsseldorf trial
testimony in the Stangl trial
Wiernik trial testimony
Rajchman trial testimony - including above
Zabecki in multiple trials - including above

Postwar eyewitness accounts (from various places):
Glazar
Rajchman memoir
Willenberg
Grinberg
S Kohn
Bomba including Shoah interview
50+ other Treblinka escapees/survivors
Auerbach summary
Grossman summary

Polish underground:
sampling previously cited in this thread

Jewish reports and publications during the war:
"The Annihilation of Jewish Warsaw" parts 2 ("Treblinka") and 3 ("Some Additional Facts"), AR II/192
Bund report published in Oyf der Wkh, 20 September 1942

Physical studies:
Łukaszkiewicz
Sturdy Colls' team

(Where the citations are not obvious I've jotted a reference down. Engelking & Leociak, Silberklang, and others cite many additional sources - and for postwar trial testimony I've kept the listings general. Especially the Treblinka/destination sources are not meant to be exhaustive but rather to establish where Warsaw Jews were taken in 1942 and what happened to them there, e.g., 1943 "end destination" correspondence, OK Ostrow report, and other more general items not listed. I did not drill down into fate of Jews taken through the Warsaw Dulag to Bobruisk or other camps - nor did I drill down on Jews shot during roundups, although evidence for both is included in first section above.)

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Statistical Mechanic
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun May 15, 2016 5:01 pm

For gas vans - at Holocaust Controversies

plus the other links posted in this forum by Hans and me and for the Łódź/Chełmno angle

Let's start with the Warsaw/Treblinka material and the gas van/Chełmno material. Ok, Monstrous, not enough sources?
. . . all right we are two nations . . .