Is this really the best there is?

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Balsamo » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:26 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:- gold teeth in possession of Rudolf Kramp (Łódź administration official) at time of his arrest
That reminds me of something. When Kurt Bolender was arrested, the police found a {!#%@} whip in his house with his initials on it. What kind of transit camp supplies it's staff with whips?
A camp that transit circus or livestocks?

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:36 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:- gold teeth in possession of Rudolf Kramp (Łódź administration official) at time of his arrest
That reminds me of something. When Kurt Bolender was arrested, the police found a {!#%@} whip in his house with his initials on it. What kind of transit camp supplies it's staff with whips?
A camp that transit circus or livestocks?
Image

a traveling circus, for sure! that must have been where Bolender worked . . .
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:47 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Balsamo wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:- gold teeth in possession of Rudolf Kramp (Łódź administration official) at time of his arrest
That reminds me of something. When Kurt Bolender was arrested, the police found a {!#%@} whip in his house with his initials on it. What kind of transit camp supplies it's staff with whips?
A camp that transit circus or livestocks?
Image

a traveling circus, for sure! that must have been where Bolender worked . . .
He was a doorman at a bar when he was caught. Must have been a hell of a bar......

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:12 pm

Good catch, it is Monstrous who works as a circus clown . . .
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:02 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:- gold teeth in possession of Rudolf Kramp (Łódź administration official) at time of his arrest
That reminds me of something. When Kurt Bolender was arrested, the police found a {!#%@} whip in his house with his initials on it. What kind of transit camp supplies it's staff with whips?
A camp that transit circus or livestocks?
Helluva camps they were. Here's a Revisionist's rendering of Trrrreblinkaa:

Image
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:37 pm

Hey Jeff, did Monstrous get back to you on your latest reply on his Soviet "theory"? I can't find his answer . . .
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Sat Nov 07, 2015 12:04 am

no he did not as a matter of fact. I suspect that he had no idea who any of the NKVD officers I mentioned were. At that point, the realization that he (and MGK by extension) had no I dea what he was talking about sank in and he decided to duck and roll.

Just my theory.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Monstrous » Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:20 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Do you really think that Stalin worried about recording for posterity the minute details of a genocide? Of course not, if a totalitarian dictator really wanted to conceal a genocide, there would be very little evidence left.
Documentary evidence for deportations of Koreans, Kalmyks, and many other populations survive. Have you read The Gulag Archipelago? I thought it was a favorite for deniers. Rumors abounded in the GULAG system, a massive deportation would have been impossible to conceal.
There is also the failure to see the big picture of enormous and enormously unclear non-Jewish causalities (20-60 million ???) in Stalin's Soviet Union. Add to this Black Box the numerous deportations many entire peoples, labor camps, secrecy, total information control, active falsification of history, and so on, and it seems, again considering the big picture, that, say, even 1-2 million Jews could be killed by Stalin without leaving any major traces behind.
We can trace the exact locations where Baltic Germans and Chechnyans were sent, when they were sent there and so on. There is no "Black Box". The uncertainty is over Soviet Civillian casualties due to German enforced policies of hunger, bombing, massacres ect. ect.
The initial deportations of Jews may have been concealed as "ordinary" gulag deportations of political dissidents and so on, following the same procedure until arriving in Siberia where the trains with Jews were instead directed to non-gulag locations where the Jews were rather quickly killed
Deportations of Soviet Jews did not start until 1949. Do you ask us to believe that Stalin had 1.2 million Jews standing around for four years?

I again state that information on GULAG's is fairly clear. A massive killing operation like this would have spread like wildfire, much like the AR camps did. Everyone in eastern Poland knew and the same would be true for whatever prison this would have been done in.

Why was this not mentioned in any exhaustive Russian historical work on Stalinist crimes?
The NKVD is given a list of persons to immediately execute (any person elsewhere being involved in the operation).
We know the names of NKVD officers who carried out the first wave of purges in 1935-36 who were subsequently killed in the second wave 1936-38 in a pattern reminiscent of what you allege. Examples include Israel Leplevsky, Pavel Boulanov, Gregory Prokofiev, and Eudard Berzin. We know that a similar procedure was done to their killers, such as Yefim Yefominov, Mikhail Frisnovsky, and Leonid Zakovsky.

I have named those examples just off the top of my head. Can you name the NKVD officers who carried out this alleged extermination of Jews, and can you name me the NKVD officers who purged the killers? because thousands of historians of the NKVD, with access to massive personnel records have not.

I will reiterate that none of the NKVD Generals put on trial after Stalin's death mentioned anything like this occurring. Leonid Raikhmann, speaking on his own free will in 1990 did not mention it among the litany of Stalinist crimes he recalled.

Once more, you still have yet to address:

- the testimony of Leonid Raikhmann
- Why no Soviet soldiers reported it in interviews after the fall of communism.
- lack of any rumors at all
- not mentioned in the Khrushchev thaw, despite the fact that Israel was an enemy of the USSR at the time and the Soviets would have leaped at the chance to {!#%@} up an adversary.
- my question of who oversaw the operation. I need a name. I know the names of most of the NKVD senior officers at the time.
Sigh. Monstrous sometimes feel he is fighting a hopeless battle against a veritable mire of small-mindedness, lacking imagination, and prissiness.

Why would there be any evidence at all for a genocide of Jews and later killings of the killers in any Soviet archive? Even if making the false assumption that the Soviet records are complete and truthful on all other matters and even if making the false assumption that all historians agreed on the number and causes of deaths of the enormous non-Jewish Soviet casualties. Most likely this would never have been recorded.

Is Stalin was careful enough when destroying the evidence, then there would have been so little evidence left afterwards that any remaining witness would have known that making accusations would just make them look silly.

In addition, Monstrous, researching the sources, found this!!!

"it must be pointed out that the historiographical
knowledge of the Soviet camp system is not complete. Russian historian
Oleg Khlevniuk writes: 1724
“Contrary to expectations, Soviet archives do not contain systematic,
complete, ready-to-use information on the number of those convicted and
imprisoned. Now that the archives are partially open, historians can review
many important documents, but elements of the new historical picture being
created on the basis of these documents are still lacking. Some documents
were lost (the prewar Gulag archives), while access to others is still re-
stricted (the FSB archives). Many events were never registered and remain
known only to their participants.
Thus it would seem that access to some files relating to the camps
and forced resettlement areas in distant parts of the USSR is still denied
by Russian authorities, while others have supposedly been lost. As for
Siberia, anyone who has ever taken a close look at a map of Russia,
travelled in it or flown over it on a trip from Europe to the Far East will
realize that it is the ideal place for hiding secret camps; in many parts
you can walk around for weeks without meeting another human being."
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php ... page_id=28

"To suggest that Stalin’s successors, such as Nikita Khrushchev,
would have exposed and denounced the secret deportation of the Jews,
if real, together with other Stalinist crimes during the so-called de-
Stalinization period in the latter half of the 1950s is exceedingly naive.
Such an exposure would not only constitute an admission that the Sovi-
et Union had helped fabricate a false genocide to blame on their ene-
mies and subsequently committed an act very close to genocide of its
own (the deportation of the surviving resettled Jews), but would seri-
ously undermine the central myth of the Great Patriotic War fought first
as a war of defense against the German-Fascist invaders and then as a
war of “liberation” of the peoples of Europe from the ultimate evil of
“Hitlerism” – a myth upheld to this day by the Russian government.
The fear of the fatal consequences to this myth by the exposure of the
Stalinist deportation of Jews and in consequence the Holocaust legend
would have overridden any desire to distance oneself from Stalin or to
harm the interests of the Zionists."
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php ... page_id=28

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:33 pm

So your evidence for a genocide is the incompleteness of the Soviet archives ("Some documents were lost . . . , while access to others is still restricted. . . .") and the vast silence of these archives, or any other, on said genocide? This absence of evidence in your argument is made to prove that 2 million European Jews, who were working in the East on military projects, must have been murdered by the Soviets.

In addition, you have no evidence for 2 million Jews being shipped to work on military projects at or near the front - further east, that is. Which must be why you think that happened in the first place.

Here in "the evidence thread" you seriously try telling us that we should not believe the evidence for the Holocaust in German-held territory in favor of believing a mass murder of Jews in Soviet territory for which there is no evidence! You're just too {!#%@} funny for words.

My question is, when you have no evidence, as you seem to be saying, what do you choose to believe and on what basis?
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Monstrous » Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:42 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote: Here in "the evidence thread"
Once upon a time this thread was about finding the best Believer evidence. Something the local believers have been very unhelpful with. Preferring instead to use the thread as a dumping ground for every kind of silly Believer argument.

Monstrous have of course rightfully decided to not reply to this pile of... something. If the Believers could try to focus on what is supposedly the most important Believer evidence, then Monstrous might reply to this.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:24 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: Here in "the evidence thread"
Once upon a time this thread was about finding the best Believer evidence. Something the local believers have been very unhelpful with.
No doubt. Hucklechuckle, Santorum, Cruz, Carson, and lot are busy trying to play politicians. Michele Bachman says the rapture is coming. Other believers are busy defending Christmas from Starbucks. But we digress.

Leaving believers aside, you mentioned convergent evidence for steam chambers, then refused to reply to refutations of your claim You were also given evidence that the Jews were taken to murder camps in the Warthegau and gassed there and that Jews from elsewhere (Upper Silesia, Hungary were the examples you were given, Upper Silesia is some detail) did not go where you claim, far the the east. You were silent about the information and evidence provided. Same deal with delousing claims you made. And Majdanek. Also with Treblinka as an end destination, contrary to what you posted. Ditto Warsaw case study. You were linked to a dozen or so sources on gassing vans - you ignroed them. Actually, you seem to have very little to say about evidence - and have opted for rampant, wild speculation based on, er, not evidence.

Yet Jeff and I have replied patiently to your "could haves" and foolish speculation. Hans and Tallboy have also made replies.

Do you imagine that this is a one-way street and you get to ask, but not answer, questions? Make claims, but not reply to rebuttals?

We're up to, and have stopped counting, 17 direct questions you've ignored. Some members have laughed at you and your antics along the way. (You just ignored another direct challenge - "My question is, when you have no evidence, as you seem to be saying, what do you choose to believe and on what basis?")
Monstrous wrote:Preferring instead to use the thread as a dumping ground for every kind of silly Believer argument.
Refute them, if they're so silly. Handwaving them away with adjectives doesn't work - and doubtless convinces no one except Maryzilla.
Monstrous wrote:Monstrous have of course rightfully decided to not reply to this pile of... something.
Coward.

Tell us, in your own words, citing evidence, where the Jews from Warsaw, Izbica, Vilnius, Łódź, the Hungarian countryside, and other places I've listed were taken. Prove your claim. If you don't rise to the challenge, we all see you're a coward. Yellow belly. Spineless bastard. Weakling. Sniveling child. Chicken. Scaredy cat. Gutless creep.
Monstrous wrote:If the Believers could try to focus on what is supposedly the most important Believer evidence, then Monstrous might reply to this.
You've been given scores of sources - pretending you haven't been is your best escape. I doubt anyone here cares, given your proven ineptitude and total incapacity to defend and support a proposition; your problem is trying to win converts - your behavior here, reinforcing your dishonest agenda, will get you nowhere. Any interested reader can dig into the evidence and arguments you've been given - and now say "have of course rightfully decided not to reply to" - and will wonder why you can't provide answers to the issues raised.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:00 pm

Monstrous wrote:Sigh. Monstrous sometimes feel he is fighting a hopeless battle against a veritable mire of small-mindedness, lacking imagination, and prissiness.

Why would there be any evidence at all for a genocide of Jews and later killings of the killers in any Soviet archive? Even if making the false assumption that the Soviet records are complete and truthful on all other matters and even if making the false assumption that all historians agreed on the number and causes of deaths of the enormous non-Jewish Soviet casualties. Most likely this would never have been recorded.
The debate is over the amount of Soviet civilians killed by genocidal German policies in the east. The number of military casualties, IIRC is known.
Is Stalin was careful enough when destroying the evidence, then there would have been so little evidence left afterwards that any remaining witness would have known that making accusations would just make them look silly.
Why did Raikhmann not mention it then? He would have known about it by virtue of his position (Lt. General of the NKVD). The GULAG system was a hive of rumors, a massive influx of Jews in one camp (let's say Kolyma) would have been known about in SLON or Wrangle Island by the end of the month due to the amount of prisoner transfers.
"it must be pointed out that the historiographical
knowledge of the Soviet camp system is not complete. Russian historian
Oleg Khlevniuk writes: 1724
“Contrary to expectations, Soviet archives do not contain systematic,
complete, ready-to-use information on the number of those convicted and
imprisoned. Now that the archives are partially open, historians can review
many important documents, but elements of the new historical picture being
created on the basis of these documents are still lacking. Some documents
were lost (the prewar Gulag archives), while access to others is still re-
stricted (the FSB archives). Many events were never registered and remain
known only to their participants.
Thus it would seem that access to some files relating to the camps
and forced resettlement areas in distant parts of the USSR is still denied
by Russian authorities, while others have supposedly been lost. As for
Siberia, anyone who has ever taken a close look at a map of Russia,
travelled in it or flown over it on a trip from Europe to the Far East will
realize that it is the ideal place for hiding secret camps; in many parts
you can walk around for weeks without meeting another human being."
The number is unknown, yes, but that is about it. The number of camps in the GULAG system was always well known. We can track when new camps were built and where. Two new camps were being built in 1953 at the time of Stalin's death. Most agree that those two camps were for Soviet Jews who dodged the proverbial bullet when the old man died. If we have this ammount of precise information on the camp system, why then do we have no evidence at all for a 1946 deportation of Polish and European Jews to the GULAG? What Mattogno so idiotically claims is that whole resettlement oporations of over a million people could remain unknown to history. That is nonsense. Small events (small scale deportations, executions ec.) would remain unknown, but massive resettlement operations like the Korean deportations or the Pontic deportations or the "great deportation" from Lithuania are well known and would be impossible to conceal by virtue of their enormity. The paper trail would be massive and broad. Mattogno has finally given us what all of his coreligionists have generously granted, what he has so desperately withheld: evidence, plain and simple, of his absolute mental retardation.
"To suggest that Stalin’s successors, such as Nikita Khrushchev,
would have exposed and denounced the secret deportation of the Jews,
if real, together with other Stalinist crimes during the so-called de-
Stalinization period in the latter half of the 1950s is exceedingly naive.
Such an exposure would not only constitute an admission that the Sovi-
et Union had helped fabricate a false genocide to blame on their ene-
mies and subsequently committed an act very close to genocide of its
own (the deportation of the surviving resettled Jews), but would seri-
ously undermine the central myth of the Great Patriotic War fought first
as a war of defense against the German-Fascist invaders and then as a
war of “liberation” of the peoples of Europe from the ultimate evil of
“Hitlerism” – a myth upheld to this day by the Russian government.
The fear of the fatal consequences to this myth by the exposure of the
Stalinist deportation of Jews and in consequence the Holocaust legend
would have overridden any desire to distance oneself from Stalin or to
harm the interests of the Zionists."
First, the notion of the Eastern front as a fight for survival for the Russian people is far from a myth (just google the Hunger plan or GP ost).

Second: Mattogno overestimates the reliance of the narrative on the fate of the Jews. The fate of the Jews was irrelevant from the Russian perspective. It was all about defending themselves, and their families from the Germans. To admit to deportation of surviving Jews would hardly damage the stature of their war.

Third: If not the De-Stalinization then the 1990's, when they owned up to Katyn and a whole bunch of other things. And as I have pointed out, it would have been impossible to hide.

Fourth: why did the massive influx of Jews not show up in the GULAG statistics?

Fifth: in every case of forced resettlement, there were were survivors who were repatriated. Chechnyans who returned to the Caucasus, Pontics who returned to the Ukraine, Koreans who eventually emigrated to South Korea. Where were these survivors in this alleged forced resettlement?

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:00 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: Here in "the evidence thread"
Once upon a time this thread was about finding the best Believer evidence. Something the local believers have been very unhelpful with. Preferring instead to use the thread as a dumping ground for every kind of silly Believer argument.

Monstrous have of course rightfully decided to not reply to this pile of... something. If the Believers could try to focus on what is supposedly the most important Believer evidence, then Monstrous might reply to this.
SM and I gave you a massive list and you have not so much as come near it.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:07 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:. . . What Mattogno so idiotically claims is that whole resettlement oporations of over a million people could remain unknown to history. That is nonsense.
Of a piece with the "transit" claim as a whole . . .
Jeff_36 wrote:Mattogno has finally given us what all of his coreligionists have generously granted, what he has so desperately withheld: evidence, plain and simple, of his absolute mental retardation.
Finally? Or again? LOL . . .
Jeff_36 wrote:Mattogno overestimates the reliance of the narrative on the fate of the Jews. The fate of the Jews was irrelevant from the Russian perspective. It was all about defending themselves, and their families from the Germans. To admit to deportation of surviving Jews would hardly damage the stature of their war.
Exactly. Generally, during the war and immediately afterwards the Soviets downplayed the fate of the Jews - and subsumed Jews into the Soviet people as victims of the Germans.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:27 pm

does monstrous even do basic research into soviet history?

All resettlements came out in the 90's, even small ones of about 10,000 or less. The million+ ones (like the Pontic operation) were well known beforehand. There were repatriated survivors. Even if only 5% survived that is still 50,000 with descendants, well over a hundred thousand by today.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:46 am

I have been studying forced population transfers in the USSR. It seems that small scale transfers (like the Nazino Island Tragedy - 6,000 persons, most of whom died) were discovered for the most part in the 1990's. However, larger scale deportations, like that of the Kalmyks, were known from the get go in the underground information chain. The Kalmyk deportation consisted of 97,000 persons, half of whom died. We know where they went, and when they were taken there.

By that measure, it is impossible to argue that a similar action targeting 1 million foreign Jews would be kept secret, especially considering that this is a regime that could not keep a lid on the Holodomar or the anti-Jewish purge of the early 50's.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Monstrous » Thu Nov 19, 2015 3:10 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:I have been studying forced population transfers in the USSR. It seems that small scale transfers (like the Nazino Island Tragedy - 6,000 persons, most of whom died) were discovered for the most part in the 1990's. However, larger scale deportations, like that of the Kalmyks, were known from the get go in the underground information chain. The Kalmyk deportation consisted of 97,000 persons, half of whom died. We know where they went, and when they were taken there.

By that measure, it is impossible to argue that a similar action targeting 1 million foreign Jews would be kept secret, especially considering that this is a regime that could not keep a lid on the Holodomar or the anti-Jewish purge of the early 50's.
1. MGK argue that reports of deportations did leak out.
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php ... page_id=28

2. MGK argue that the deportations were outside the normal gulag system and thus were not recorded in the normal gulag records.
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php ... page_id=28

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:07 pm

they could not have been outside the GULAG system. Every other population transfer in USSR history was handled buy the NKVD and involved the GULAG system. So their argument falls flat on its face and demonstrates total ignorance of the the history of Stalinist repressions.

As for reports, you will have to quote one, just one, for me as I do not have pdf access on my phone. All indications point to these being from 1948-53 when Stalin was actually purging Jews everywhere. In every history of Stalinist repression that I have read there were zero indications to anyone that even a single Jew was sent anywhere in 1945-46.

You must remember that Jewish politicians such as Lazar Kaganovich, Illya Ehernburg and Polina Molatova still held some influence in the USSR at the time, shrinking rapidly yes, but still influence nonetheless. It would have been impossible to deport 1.2 million Jews to the GULAG without numerous detailed and explicit reports coming out. It would be known to history today, you cannot fit a deportation that big into a black box, any more than you could fit the deportations of 97,000 Kalmyks into a black box.

Records show that only 250,000 or so were deported from Ukraine and Belarus in 1944-47, few of whom were Jews. Far from the 1,100,000 that you allege were deported during that time period.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:06 pm

records show that there were 1,355,739 inmates in GULAGs and labor colonies in 1946, when this action would have been finished. the addition of a million Jews to this total would have doubled the total prison population. The notion that such a bloating of the prison population could occur without any trace being known today and without so much as a single report by so much as a single escapee or dissident is laughable.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:09 pm

Jeff, please, don't confuse him with facts. Also, if you have evidence, it doesn't count as it makes speculation harder. Sheesh.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Monstrous » Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:53 pm

"Already on 22
December 1944 the German-Jewish exile weekly Aufbau published a
notice which reads:
“The Soviet embassy in Washington is denying reports disseminated by
the Palestinian press, according to which the Russian authorities have
transferred part of the population of liberated Bessarabia, Bukovina and
the eastern parts of Poland to Siberia and already brought hundreds of
Jews from Czernowitz [the capital of Bukovina] to the Ural region. Accord-
ing to the statement of denial ‘these claims are completely unfounded and
have nothing to do with reality.’ This reply was directed at the Federation
of Bessarabian Societies of America, which had contacted the embassy in
order to verify the reports which had reached them by cable from Jerusa-
lem.”

"For 1949 we also have the news summary of the 1950 edition the
American Jewish Year Book already quoted by us in Sobibór, 1714 which
mentions 1715
“[…] reports about the mass deportation of Jews from the Western
border region of the Soviet Union, especially from White Russia, the
Ukraine, Eastern Galicia, Bukovina, and Bessarabia. According to one re-
port, the deportation affected mainly the Jewish citizens who had relatives
in America or Western Europe; other sources maintain that the whole Jew-
ish population of some territories was deported.”
Moreover, it emphasizes that 1715
“The American Jewish League against Communism sent a protest to the
Secretary General of the U.N. in which it estimated the number of Jews af-
fected by the deportations as 400,000.”

" In its 1951
edition, the American Jewish Year Book again noted reports of mass
deportation: 1717
“The reports of deportations of Jews from some border territories of the
Soviet Union (see AMERICAN JEWISH YEAR BOOK, 1950, Volume 51, p.
340) were repeated during 1949-50. There was a report that the entire Jew-
ish population of Lwow in Western Ukraine (formerly Eastern Poland)
where 30,000 Soviet Jews had settled after World War II, had been com-
pletely evacuated. Similar reports came from Bessarabia and North Buko-
vina (The Yiddish [Morning] Journal, August 15, 1949; JTA, August 19,
1949, [from Tel Aviv]); in this case, they were denied and labelled as ‘fan-
tastic’ by the Soviet Embassy in Washington on August 18, 1949. According
to these accounts, the Soviet authorities in Kishinev and Czernowitz had
announced on July 1, 1949, that Jews wishing to emigrate to Israel should
register with the local authorities; the majority of the local Jewish popula-
tion registered and was sent to concentration camps near Murmansk. Ac-
cording to another report all Jews with relatives in the United States or
England had been deported. It remained impossible to confirm these ac-
counts. The United States State Department received reports confirming
simultaneous mass deportations of Greeks from the Black Sea area; but as
to Ukrainian Jews, it could only say that reports of their deportation had
reached the American Embassy in Moscow, but could not be verified, due
to travel restrictions imposed on the Embassy personnel.”

"The referred-to 19 August 1949 notice from the JTA Daily News
Bulletin reads as follows:
“Reports that Jews in Bessarabia and Soviet Bukovina were deported
on masse to Siberia last month after they registered for emigration to Israel
were made known today on the basis of private letters reaching here. Ac-
cording to the letters, Soviet authorities in Kishinev and Czernowitz an-
nounced on July 1 that Jews wishing to emigrate to Israel could register
with the local authorities. The majority of the Jewish population of the two
cities, as well as Jews in all towns of Bessarabia and Soviet Bukovina, im-
mediately registered for migration to the Jewish state. The letters report
that between July 10-20, all Jews who had registered their desire to pro-
ceed to Israel were packed in specially-prepared railway coaches and dis-
patched to the Murmansk area, in the Arctic, which allegedly had been
earmarked as a new concentration area for all Jews ejected from towns lo-
cated on the Russian-Rumanian border. The letters add that panic is
spreading in Bessarabia and in the Rumanian part of Bukovina among
Jews who had been preparing to emigrate to Israel and who remained
‘paralyzed’ following the prohibition on emigration. Many months have
elapsed since relatives in Israel of Jews in Bessarabia and Bukovina have
received any mail from those areas, it was noted here."

"In its 1953 edition, the American Jewish Year Book carried the fol-
lowing report: 1718
“Reports of deportations of Jews from [Soviet] border territories […]
were confirmed by new information printed in the Christian Science Moni-
tor in March 1952. According to this and other reports, the transports of
deportees from the Ukraine and White Russia were continuing, and all
Jews had reportedly been removed from some districts, such as Rovno and
Zdolbunov. At the beginning of the deportation, the Jews were assured by
the police that this was not a penal action and that they were being re-
moved ‘for their own security’ because the German occupation had left
dangerous seeds of anti-Semitism; the deportees were given twenty-four to
forty-eight hours’ notice of the transports. Later the tactics were changed,
and the victims were rounded up in surprise midnight raids and removed at
once. According to the Israelitisches Wochenblatt of Zurich, July 31-August
8, 1952, a similar evacuation was carried out in Kharkov, where 4,000
Jews were removed from the city. […]
Some of the deportees may have been sent to Birobidjan, where several
districts were put under the administration of the secret police and trans-
formed into slave labor regions. Some persons who passed through Biro-
bidjan during and after World War II recalled having seen forced labor
trains arriving there as early as 1944. The existence of such camps would
explain the complete silence about Birobidjan for the past several years,
and the complete severance of any contacts between its inhabitants and the
other Jews in the Soviet Union.”
In September 1949, further reports of deportations reached the world
from Athens: 1713
"“The Athens News Agency, quoting reports from 17,000 Greeks who
had returned from the Caucasus, said that Jews in an unnamed large
Ukrainian town who had relatives in Britain and United States had been
deported to Siberia. It added that there had been recent large-scale depor-
tations to Siberia of Armenians from the Ukraine.”

"In its issue from 21 January 2010, the New York Times told the story
of the two Jewish sisters Ruth and Toni Usherenko who grew up in
Germany and were sent together with their mother to the Gross-Rosen
labor camp in Lower Silesia. The most interesting part of this article
concerns the fate of the sisters after their “liberation” by the Soviets: 1719
“In 1945, the three women were sent by the Soviets to a labor camp in
Siberia; they were considered suspect because of their religion and their
German provenance.
‘We couldn’t speak one word of Russian,’ Ruth Usherenko recalled.
‘They didn’t feed us. When people died, they didn’t bury them – they put
them in the forest and the wolves were eating them.’
So complete was their isolation that they did not know when the war
ended. ‘Stalin passed away in 1953, and they released us in 1955,’ Ruth
Usherenko recalled. ‘A woman came to us and said, ‘The war is over.’
The three women settled in the Ukrainian town of Dnepropetrovsk,
where they worked as milliners. The sisters married – Ruth to a shoemaker
and Toni to an aviation engineer – and in 1981, after years of trying to
leave the Soviet Union, the families were able to emigrate to Brooklyn.”
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php ... page_id=28
Last edited by Monstrous on Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Monstrous » Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:03 pm

"One might argue that the deportation of hundreds of thousands of
Jews would not have gone unnoticed. However, among the more than
one million Chechens, Kalmyks, Crimean Tartars, Greeks, Latvians,
Lithuanians, Estonians and other nationalities deported by the Stalin re-
gime between 1944 and 1949, and among the even greater number of
people (among them many Jews) returning during the same period to
their homes in the western parts of the Soviet Union from the Russian
interior and Siberia or Central Asia, to where they had escaped or been
evacuated by the Red Army at the beginning of the war, the fly-by-night
deportation of foreign Jews would have been only one incident of
forced or voluntary population transfer among many.
There is also another, even more crucial reason to how this operation
could have gone unnoticed: while the targets of the other forced Soviet
population transfers were Soviet citizens, were registered in public rec-
ords and their absence obvious to all in the local societies of which they
had been part, the foreign German-deported Jews were not merely for-
eign transients and “displaced persons,” the vast majority of whom no
doubt could not communicate in Russian, but in fact, to borrow a term
from Orwell, they were “unpersons,” which in “Oldspeak (or standard
English)” meant “non-existent persons.” 1720 Barron’s Book Notes Guide
to Orwell’s Nineteen Eighty-Four describes an “unperson” as a person
who “has been removed from the Party and perhaps even vaporized and
removed from history through changes in written records.” 1721
This very much applies to the deported Jews in question: they were
unpersons because the world considered them to be dead and because
Stalin decided to consolidate this fraudulent report for his own ends.
The Jews sent to Siberia or elsewhere were “living ghosts,” unpersons
whose disappearance was likely to go unnoticed by any significant
number of people. In contrast, the forced transfers of other ethnic
groups in the post-war Soviet Union were not kept secret, in fact official
explanations for the transfers were often given, such as them targeting
“banditism,” “Kulaks” or as being punishment for (real or alleged) col-
laboration with the Germans during the war.
The above quoted news articles show that some people did in fact
notice the deportations. Why, then, is it that the stream of reports ap-
pears to have ceased by the time of Stalin’s death in 1953? The most
likely explanation would seem to be that by then detailed news began to
reach the West again from the Soviet-Jewish communities. The fact that
the local Soviet Jews would have had nothing to tell of deportations af-
fecting their communities – of which the deportees had (most likely)
never been a part – would needless to say reinforce the skeptic opinion
that the reports had been based upon mere rumors triggered by the
measures taken against leading Zionist Jews during the last years of Sta-
lin’s regime.
By the early 1950s the orthodox holocaust story had been firmly
cemented by the IMT and NMT trials, and it was unlikely that anyone
besides isolated individuals would even have considered the possibility
that the deportations had in fact taken place, but targeted another cate-
gory of Jews, a group of displaced Jewish unpersons
That none of the people involved in carrying out the operation have
ever spoken of it – at least to our knowledge – following the fall of the
Soviet Union 1722 could be explained by actual ignorance caused by the
use of a need-to-know policy (possibly amounting to the misinfor-
mation of involved personnel) and the language barrier between the de-
portees and their guards, but also by 1) the possibility that some of these
individuals were themselves purged as carriers of state secrets; 2) the
likelihood that any involved who were still alive in the 1990s and con-
sidered speaking of their experiences would keep silent either because
they lacked an outlet which would take them seriously or due to the
possibility of facing official or unofficial repercussions. 1723
Most likely the Jewish deportees were not sent to the ordinary GU-
Lag camps and “special settlements,” but to special ad-hoc camps for
Jews. Romanov’s assertion that such a deportation can be excluded be-
cause we have available statistics on ethnicity for the prisoners of the
GULag camps and “special settlements” is thus rendered moot."

"Moreover it must be pointed out that the historiographical
knowledge of the Soviet camp system is not complete. Russian historian
Oleg Khlevniuk writes: 1724
“Contrary to expectations, Soviet archives do not contain systematic,
complete, ready-to-use information on the number of those convicted and
imprisoned. Now that the archives are partially open, historians can review
many important documents, but elements of the new historical picture being
created on the basis of these documents are still lacking. Some documents
were lost (the prewar Gulag archives), while access to others is still re-
stricted (the FSB archives). Many events were never registered and remain
known only to their participants.”
Thus it would seem that access to some files relating to the camps
and forced resettlement areas in distant parts of the USSR is still denied
by Russian authorities, while others have supposedly been lost. "

"To suggest that Stalin’s successors, such as Nikita Khrushchev,
would have exposed and denounced the secret deportation of the Jews,
if real, together with other Stalinist crimes during the so-called de-
Stalinization period in the latter half of the 1950s is exceedingly naive.
Such an exposure would not only constitute an admission that the Sovi-
et Union had helped fabricate a false genocide to blame on their ene-
mies and subsequently committed an act very close to genocide of its
own (the deportation of the surviving resettled Jews), but would seri-
ously undermine the central myth of the Great Patriotic War fought first
as a war of defense against the German-Fascist invaders and then as a
war of “liberation” of the peoples of Europe from the ultimate evil of
“Hitlerism” – a myth upheld to this day by the Russian government.
The fear of the fatal consequences to this myth by the exposure of the
Stalinist deportation of Jews and in consequence the Holocaust legend
would have overridden any desire to distance oneself from Stalin or to
harm the interests of the Zionists."
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php ... page_id=28

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:20 pm

Most of these are red herrings, dated from the period of 1948-53, during the Anti Jewish Purge.

The only exception is this
"Already on 22
December 1944 the German-Jewish exile weekly Aufbau published a
notice which reads:
“The Soviet embassy in Washington is denying reports disseminated by
the Palestinian press, according to which the Russian authorities have
transferred part of the population of liberated Bessarabia, Bukovina and
the eastern parts of Poland to Siberia and already brought hundreds of
Jews from Czernowitz [the capital of Bukovina] to the Ural region. Accord-
ing to the statement of denial ‘these claims are completely unfounded and
have nothing to do with reality.’ This reply was directed at the Federation
of Bessarabian Societies of America, which had contacted the embassy in
order to verify the reports which had reached them by cable from Jerusa-
lem.”
Hundreds of Jews from Chernivtsi. And it was probably an Israeli rumor at that. Even if it were true, these are Bessarabian Jews, not Polish and European Jews. "Hundreds" is far from equal to 1.1 million.

You do realize that your nonsense not only eggs all over your face, but on MGK's faces as well?

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:55 am

Just a quick look at Wikipedia for some numbers shows:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernivtsi#History wrote:In 1940, the Red Army occupied the area; the area around the city became known as Chernivtsi Oblast, and was allotted to the Ukrainian SSR by the Soviet Union.[12] The city's large Romanian intelligentsia found refuge in Romania; while the Bukovina Germans were "repatriated" according to a Soviet-Nazi agreement. This prompted Romania to switch from an ally of France and Britain to one of Nazi Germany; in July 1941, the Romanian Army retook the city as part of the Axis attack on the Soviet Union during World War II. In August 1941, Romanian military dictator Ion Antonescu ordered the creation of a ghetto in the lowland part of the city, where 50,000 Bukovina Jews were crammed, two-thirds of whom would be deported to Transnistria in October 1941 and partly in early 1942, where the majority perished. Romanian mayor of the city Traian Popovici managed to persuade Antonescu to raise the number of Jews exempted from deportation from 200 to 20,000.

In 1944, when Axis forces were driven out by the Red Army, the city was reincorporated into the Ukrainian SSR. Over the following years, most of the Jews left for Israel; the city was an important node in the Berihah network. Bukovina Poles were also "repatriated" by the Soviets after World War II. The city became a predominantly Ukrainian one.
and:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernivtsi#Demographics wrote:Chernivtsi once had a Jewish community of over 50,000, less than a third of whom survived World War II. Romanian lawyer and reserve officer Theodor Criveanu, as well as the then city mayor Traian Popovici, supported by General Vasile Ionescu saved 19,689 Jewish people. Initially, Governor of Bukovina Corneliu Calotescu allowed only 190 Jewish people to stay, but Traian Popovici, after an incredible effort, obtained from the then dictator of Romania Marshal Ion Antonescu an allowance of 20,000.[16] After World War II, the city was a key node in the Berihah network, which helped Jews to emigrate to the then Mandate Palestine from the difficult conditions after the War. Following the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, the majority of the remaining Jewish population emigrated to Israel and the United States. A famous member of this latter emigration is the actress Mila Kunis.[17]
:scratch:
.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:15 pm

. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Monstrous » Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:56 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:Most of these are red herrings, dated from the period of 1948-53, during the Anti Jewish Purge.

The only exception is this
"Already on 22
December 1944 the German-Jewish exile weekly Aufbau published a
notice which reads:
“The Soviet embassy in Washington is denying reports disseminated by
the Palestinian press, according to which the Russian authorities have
transferred part of the population of liberated Bessarabia, Bukovina and
the eastern parts of Poland to Siberia and already brought hundreds of
Jews from Czernowitz [the capital of Bukovina] to the Ural region. Accord-
ing to the statement of denial ‘these claims are completely unfounded and
have nothing to do with reality.’ This reply was directed at the Federation
of Bessarabian Societies of America, which had contacted the embassy in
order to verify the reports which had reached them by cable from Jerusa-
lem.”
Hundreds of Jews from Chernivtsi. And it was probably an Israeli rumor at that. Even if it were true, these are Bessarabian Jews, not Polish and European Jews. "Hundreds" is far from equal to 1.1 million.

You do realize that your nonsense not only eggs all over your face, but on MGK's faces as well?
Hundreds of Jews from Chernivtsi was just one example.

The expression "eastern parts of Poland" means Polish Jews.

The hand-waving dismissal "Most of these are red herrings, dated from the period of 1948-53, during the Anti Jewish Purge" is unclear and unsatisfactory.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Nov 21, 2015 4:19 pm

Maybe it would be prudent for Monstrous to study actual history instead of relying on those sites s/he spams to clearly know and understand reality. However, I somehow doubt it would be satisfactory for her/him...
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Nov 21, 2015 4:25 pm

No {!#%@}. After introducing the topic of strong evidence for the Holocaust, Monstrous has been tripping itself running backwards away from the problem he raised for himself - and seems smugly satisfied with baseless speculation in accord with a paranoid view of the past.

Again, who cares? The evidence is what it is, and Monstrous's refusal to engage with it and offer comments on what's been posted goes to show the bankruptcy of the tiny cult he's in.

This is a forum on which members debate what evidence tells us about events - not what fantasies they have. I think Monstrous stumbled into the wrong place.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Nov 21, 2015 4:41 pm

It does remind me of the would-be-Buddhas and UFO/paranormal fruitcakes who start posting in the subforums dealing with those subjects, and who then are (act) surprised and offended by the skeptic voices they encounter - on this forum. :lol:
.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by ryu289 » Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:51 am

Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote: Even the Believers state that there were some Jews who worked as forced laborers so some German soldiers witnessing or being involved in this would not have been considered notable or sensitive.
A million plus would have hardly been typical. It would have shown up in general reports from higher commands. Von Mannstien and Gudarian both wrote books about their experiences in the war. As extremely high ranking Generals they would have known about such basic frontline considerations as trench digging and labor allocation. Mannstien was also an unrepentant nazi. They made no mention of what you say happened.

After the 1991 fall of communism, many Russian Jews moved to Israel. This included many red army veterans of WWII. They would have seen the piles of dead Jews killed "by Soviet artillery" and would likely have witnessed NKVD men floating around telling everyone to shut up. As Jews they would have been outraged. In the 90's free from Communism and living away from Russia, they could have told all if they wanted to. They did not.
The individuals seeing the big picture would have been few and would have a self-interest in not revealing this (war crimes, etc).
Who? Name names! Molotov? Mikoyan?
Stalin not have told most of his associates that he was sending the surviving Jews to Siberia and he would certainly not have given this task to a Jew.

Jew or not Raikhmann was responsible for the Katyn coverup and precedent indicates that he would have been involved in this scenario. The Soviets had no problem encouraging ethnic cannibalism btw: many of the officials responsible for the Holodomar were Ukrainians themselves. The Yevsekstii, a CPSU committee that terrorized Jewish communities and imprisoned many Rabbis was comprised of ethnic Jews. It was perceived by some as a test of loyalty. Stalin made Lazar Kaganovich sign off on his 1948-53 antisemitic purge. Raikhmann being involved would not be out of the ordinary.
Most of Stalin's circle would know nothing.
Who would have known then? Viktor Abukumov? He was responsible for carrying out the antisemitic purge of the early 50's so maybe him. He made no mention of any coverup of resettlement in his trial.
Name me some names!
As suggested by MGK, the limited numbers involved in this operation may themselves have been killed after the Jews had been killed.
Really? Stalin basically killed most of the NKVD in the mid thirties and then again in the late 30's, but there were no purges of NKVD directors from 1945 to 1953. A lot of them were killed in 1953-56 but they were put on trial beforehand and made no mention of any coverup of resettlement.
If nyone survived this, also the post-Stalin Soviet Union would have no interest in contradicting the official Holocaust story and would not have allowed such testimonies.

Dude, they admitted to the Katyn massacre and opened up their archives. They released many documents dealing orders from Stalin himself. You clearly no nothing about the Russian mentality, why release documents featuring Stalin signing off on executions of Russian citizens only to cover up a crime committed against foreign Jews? Also see my example of Red army veterans in Israel in the 90's. Out of the reach of the FSB, free to say whatever.
Also the post-Soviet Union Russia would have little interest in such testimonies, assuming anyone still survived at this time.
Glasnost. It was a period of intense soul searching and revelations, It would have very much been in the national interest.
in addition to sending the surviving Jews to Siberian camps to die, as suggested by MGK.
What GULAG camps? Where?
Kolyma? Vokruta? SLON? You must be specific. There is no record of such a transfer.
Of course, NS generals would not state having participated in war crimes.

Of course, Soviet generals would not state having participated in war crimes.

Of course, it would not be easy to see if corpses from artillery were Jews or not.

Of course, a genocide is a much more sensitive subject than gulags, so the Soviet Union/Russia would be reluctant to talk about it, and maybe have to pay reparations to Israel.

Of course, MGK states that Jewish genocidal killings by Stalin would have taken place outside the normal gulag system, so it would not be in any gulag records, or have been seen by any normal gulag personal or prisoners.

Of course, if Monstrous may for once be allowed to make a speculation, Stalin may have given such a genocidal task to Soviet POWs returning from Germany, they were anyhow considered traitors for having capitulated, and if themselves later killed this could be concealed as either having died in German POW camps or as having been killed as traitors for having capitulated.
So your evidence...is a complete lack of evidence...

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:58 am

exactly. Just drug induced speculation revealing a lack of knowledge of the period.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:01 pm

Hans wrote:Well, bad timing from Monstrous to come up with his canard right after it was rebutted at the HC blog.

Did you tell Monstrous about PS-501 already? Or do you think this would confuse him (or her) too much?
Starting with this post made on the above-referenced Nuremberg document, PS-501, Hans utterly devastates the cherished dreams of Trollo, been-there and, especially, the increasingly demented and dishonest "Bob," whose descent into rampant incoherence seems complete by this point. From my cursory check-ins of the Rodoh forum, I'd say that this discussion constitutes the first thing appearing in there in many months that is worth reading "if you wish to discuss sources and/or interpretation of sources."

In the discussion, Hans provides patient and useful lessons, and explicit instructions, to the chimps on how to do what they are clueless about: reading documents and building/supporting a case, whereas the chimps fail to learn and just keep flinging {!#%@} in every direction - hoping to distract readers? Who knows?

Been-there, OTOH, has become so confused and desperate in the face of Hans's methodical deconstruction of Weckert and Alvarez that in his most recent post he tries to buy time for himself by wriggling out of his debunked BS - claiming to be a "'holocaust' agnostic," trying to change the topic away from the EGs to the to the death camps, and saying he's not heard of PS-501 before now (despite Werd and others posting on the document recently in Rodoh). The incompetence and biases of the HD crew are in this case made even starker by the way Hans leads them into one dead end after another. Excellent work by Hans, IMO.

(It is interesting to read on Rodoh how the "request" for the best non-witness evidence mirrors what Monstrous "asked" here - and enjoyable to follow as Hans explains the inherent silliness of this particular denier gambit - using it against the aims of its authors. I like how "Bob" the chief comedian in the Rodoh thread, and its originator, deems testimony a "canard"; courts worldwide, not to mention historians, will be grateful to learn about this.)

PS - Thoroughly routed, Trollo the {!#%@} tries changing the subject - weighing in on Poland during WWI!!! - to been-there's relief. When it comes to doing history, the Rodoh crowd truly are like chimps attempting brain surgery. Bob grows more apoplectic and incomprehensible as his posts and words pile up. Part of the comic interplay here is how Bob actually seems to think his incoherent, tedious rants say something. Hans's replies are unruffled and exemplary.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:48 am

Lemmie guess: lots of complaints about "wall of text obfuscation" from Been-There. That is as sure a sign as any that he has lost the debate. It essentially translates as "me no understand, help me daft rabbit"

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 31, 2015 4:26 am

It was "Bob" actually who called "wall of text"; he and been-there keep repeating themselves and pretending that Hans hasn't responded to their wailing.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:12 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Xcalibur wrote:
Monstrous wrote:There is a convergence of evidence that in Treblinka steam was used:
http://vho.org/tr/2002/1/tr09irving.html
Monstrous's convergence of evidence for steam as the murder method at Treblinka:

1. Polish Underground reports on deportees from Warsaw and elsewhere, partial listing from 1942

30 July 1942 Biuletyn Informacyjny (J Zimmerman, The Polish Underground and the Jews, 1939-1945, p 157): lack of specifics on fate of deportees with the “most pessimistic speculations”

6 August 1942 Biuletyn Informacyjny (Zimmerman, p 157):
so far, nearly 70,000 Jews deported from Warsaw; “While precise details and certainty is still being determined, first-hand accounts give no doubt that the transports of Jews are being directed via routes towards two main death camps in Bełzec and Sobibór.” [about this time Bund mission, which discovered that the deportations went to Treblinka and heard that the killing was by gas or electricity, was completed and 1st Bund report was published in underground newspaper in Warsaw]

10 August 1942 Home Army’s Jewish Affairs Bureau (Zimmerman, p 152): Henryk Woliński (bureau chief) 150,000 Jews deported from Warsaw (7,000 per day), Treblinka II had been added to Sobibór and Bełzec death camps; also liquidation of Radom

17 August 1942 Informacja Bieżaca (Mattogno & Graf, Treblinka: Transit Camp or Extermination Camp?, p 48):
“After the departure of the steam engines, the Jews are forced to undress, supposedly for the bath; then they are led into the gas chamber and executed. . . . the gas chamber is mobile and moves back and forth over the [burial] pits . . .”

18 August 1942, analysis of Department of Information (division of Home Army’s Bureau of Information and Propaganda) (Zimmerman, p 152):
report on Warsaw deportations; “The physical liquidation of the Jewish people that has been taking place for the last few months . . .”

20 August 1942 Biuletyn Informacyjny (Zimmerman, p 158): approximately 200,000 Jews deported to Treblinka; Jews being put to death in Treblinka, in “gas chambers”

no date (probably late August 1942), Department of Information and Press, Delegatura, report covering 16 July - 25 August 1942) (Zimmerman, p 154):
“more and more intelligence about the cruel murder of the Jews by the Germans in every area of Poland,” citing specifically Bełzec, Sobibór, Treblinka, camps in which Jews were being murdered “in gas chambers specifically built for this purpose”; Radom cited

31 August 1942, letter by Leon Feiner to Zygielbojm, Polish government in London (Zimmerman, p 155):
“the complete extermination” of the Jews underway, “un-heard of mass murders” in occupied USSR now extended into General Gouvernement in ongoing actions - 1,250,000 Jews murdered in Bełzec, Sobibór, Treblinka

8 September 1942 Informacja Bieżaca (M&G Treblinka, p 48):
“The Ukrainians pull the Jews out of the cars and lead them to the ‘bath’ in the bathhouse. This is a building surrounded by barbed wire. They enter in groups of 300 to 500 persons. Each group is immediately locked up hermetically and gassed. Of course, this gas is not immediately effective, for the Jews have to walk to the pits afterwards.”

17 September 1942 declaration on Warsaw ghetto liquidation issued by the Polish Underground’s Directorate of Civil Resistance, Delegator, printed in Biuletyn Informacyjny (Zimmerman, pp 158-159):
“Jews who, for no reason other than the fact that they belong to the Jewish nation, are mercilessly slaughtered by poison gas, by being burned alive, thrown out of windows . . .” (no specific reference to Treblinka listed in Zimmerman’s summary)

1 October 1942 Biuletyn Informacyjny (Zimmerman, p 161):
“Death camps in Bełzec, Treblinka and Sobibór are working day and night. In Radom only about 7% of the Jewish community remains. About 1000 people were shot on the spot and the remaining 22,000 deported to Treblinka. In Kielce, the entire ghetto was liquidated in a single night (Aug. 19th) with 1200 shot on the spot and 16,000 deported. . . .”

5 October 1942 Informacja Bieżaca (M&G Treblinka, p 47):
“Treblinka. The death camp is once more in operation. . . .The gas chambers function as follows: Outside of the barracks is a 20 HP internal combustion engine, which is in operation around the clock. The end of its exhaust pipe is mounted in a wall of the barracks; the exhaust gases, with the admixture of toxic fluids, which have been specially mixed into the fuel of the engine, kill the people locked up in the barracks . . .”

8 October 1942 Biuletyn Informacyjny (Zimmerman, p 161):
“the vast majority [of the 300,000 Jews deported from Warsaw] were murdered primarily in the gas chambers of the Treblinka concentration camp”

10 October 1942 situational report of the Delegatura (Zimmerman, p 166):
conclusion that “resettlement to the east” was a euphemism for mass murder; deportees from Polish ghettos being sent to Bełzec and Treblinka and there “being subjected to horrific mass murder in gas chambers”

1-15 October 1942, Niepodleglosć (Zimmerman, p 160): on mass murder of Warsaw’s Jews, about 300,000 murdered, according to Zimmerman, mostly by gas

no date, report forwarded to Polish government in exile in London (M&G Treblinka, p 48, M&G give no further information):
“[The Jews] are brought into a sealed chamber, a barrack, approximately 100 people at a time. Outside of the barrack stands an internal combustion engine of 20 HP, which runs around the clock. The mouth of the engine’s exhaust leads through the barrack’s wall, and the people locked up in the barrack are killed by exhaust gases channeled through it that contain toxic fluid additives, which have been especially mixed with the engine fuel.”

6 November 1942 Home Army’s Jewish Affairs Bureau (Zimmerman, p 153): Jewish communities outside Warsaw being liquidated and Jews sent to Bełzec, Sobibór, Treblinka (including Siedlce, Biala Podlaska, Łukow)

2. Tabulation of escapee reports on method of murder at Treblinka
sample = 43 (of 82 Treblinka escapees for whom I could determine a reported method of killing; this is a preliminary summary, still under construction)

36 reported gas
1 reported steam only (Gutman)
2 reported gas and/or steam (Krzepicki, Rabinowicz)
1 reported gas or electricity (Bund report, presumably U Wallach)
3 reported some combination of gas with air pumped out, chlorine, ether, or Zyklon B (A Kon, Rajchman, S Goldberg)

(M&G also cite a report describing the killing method as steam that was sent to London in March 1943 without attributing it to an escapee, an underground source or other informant.)

- - - - -

The key point is that escapees from Treblinka, and others, did not know how those taken to the "bathhouses" were being murdered inside. The SS did not give informational tours or provide handy brochures. So people working in the camp made conjectures, compared observations, rumors, and thinking, and eventually formed a consensus that engine exhaust was the means of murder. As Abraham Krzepicki, a rare escapee who actually saw the chambers (albeit when they were not in operation), forthrightly told Oyneg Shabes interviewers in fall 1942, after his escape from Treblinka, "None of the workers knew exactly how death was caused." (Kermish, To Live with Honor and Die with Honor, p 713)
In the Lwow (Lemberg) area, a German officer (with the military, not the SS) recorded his perceptions of what Jews in the region had learned or figured out about German plans and actions. The officer wrote on 18 April 1942, just one month after Bełzec had begun operations, about the reality of the Jewish "resettlement" operations:
probably the news has gotten around among the Jews that those evacuated never reach the settlement area that they are told about.
In the fall (17 October 1942) the same officer wrote that by that time
Jewry is informed about its destiny. The dictum of a member of the Jewish council in Lemberg is characteristic: 'All of us carry our death certificate in our pocket - only the date of dying is not yet filled in.'
Gerlach, p 425, quoting documents in Bundesarchiv military collection
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:12 pm

One thing that struck me in that diary entry was that the author made no attempt to follow this observation with "of course the Jews will be resettled in the "east"". He made no such attempt. The implications of the passage stand for themselves.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:47 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:One thing that struck me in that diary entry was that the author made no attempt to follow this observation with "of course the Jews will be resettled in the "east"". He made no such attempt. The implications of the passage stand for themselves.
Indeed, the officer's tone in what Gerlach has quoted is that the rumors have caught up with what the officer knows to be policy and what he knows to have been going on - and that the officer knows that the Jews in the area, including informed Jewish leaders, are wise to what the Germans intend for them: no resettlement, certain death at some point.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by nickterry » Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:19 pm

The first one is cited on p.218 of the HC critique. I looked up these reports at NARA after reading about them in Dieter Pohl's 1996 dissertation on Galicia. The second was one of god knows how many sources we left out in the writing-up stage.

They were also highlighted by me at RODOH, and were reproduced by Roberto in the HC reference section
http://holocaustcontroversies.yuku.com/ ... quidierung

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:19 am

Thanks, I searched the Critique quickly for both items, as something rang a bell, but somehow missed the quotation you cited. I was hoping to find the officer's name or other background there. Here's what the Critique quoted, a different translation reinforcing the points made above:
The Jewish population displays the deepest depression, which is completely understandable because on the one hand in various locations in the district the well-known actions against the Jews occur again and on the other hand in Lemberg the temporarily interrupted resettlement of Jews resumes; in the meantime it is whispered also among the Jews that the evacuees never reach the resettlement territory that is alleged to them as the destination.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:46 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Thanks, I searched the Critique quickly for both items, as something rang a bell, but somehow missed the quotation you cited. I was hoping to find the officer's name or other background there. Here's what the Critique quoted, a different translation reinforcing the points made above:
The Jewish population displays the deepest depression, which is completely understandable because on the one hand in various locations in the district the well-known actions against the Jews occur again and on the other hand in Lemberg the temporarily interrupted resettlement of Jews resumes; in the meantime it is whispered also among the Jews that the evacuees never reach the resettlement territory that is alleged to them as the destination.
Note his wording. He made no mention of "our lovely holiday camps in the east" or "or forced labor camps in Belouroussia". Anyone with half a brian reading this doc concludes that "wesettowment" was a sham.